Talk:Persecution of Eastern Orthodox Christians/Archive 3

Archive 1

Archive 2

Archive 3

Matter of elementary logic

Those bent on removing this image [1] at all costs will need to address the following issue. Since Serbs were indeed persecuted in Kosovo, and since Serbs are Orthodox Christians, it follows that persecution of Serbs in Kosovo is persecution of Orthodox Christians. This is a matter of simple logic. I am not interested in technicalities, sophistry, and word games. Khirurg (talk) 04:32, 5 July 2018 (UTC)

@Khirurg: Those who bent on adding the image at all costs should read the Kosovo section. The matter was discussed here and on two other talk pages. Be civil as your lack of civility towards other editors on and off-Wiki is well-documented, if you wish to go down that road. Bye, Ktrimi991 (talk) 06:55, 5 July 2018 (UTC)

@Khirurg: Your argument is a case of WP:SYNTHESIS, and that is not allowed here. Please, present a reliable source that says violence against Serbs on Kosovo was religious in nature. Vanjagenije (talk) 10:02, 5 July 2018 (UTC)

Agree with Ktrimi991 and Vanjagenije. Unless reliable sources show they were persecuted as Orthodox Christians (and not out of ethno-nationalist enmity, as Serbs) then it isn't Orthodox Christians. They probably used toothpaste, but that doesn't mean there should be a category "Persecution of people who used toothpaste" unless that's the reason for their persecution. Which is a matter of elementary logic. BobFromBrockley (talk) 10:06, 5 July 2018 (UTC)

It's really quite simple. A) Serbs are Orthodox Christians and B) Serbs were persecuted. Therefore C) Orthodox Christians were persecuted. By your logic, nothing is religious persecution. You can just as easily say the the persecution of Armenians during the Armenian Genocide is not "religious" but "ethnic". The two are not mutually exclusive. The burden of proof is on those claiming that it's not religious persecution. Hundreds of churches were destroyed, some containing priceless medieval art. And we are supposed to think that that's not religious persecution? Also, Ktrimi, can you please explain what you mean by "off-wiki" incivility? Khirurg (talk) 22:45, 5 July 2018 (UTC)

What you just wrote is the definition of WP:SYNTH. That is not allowed. Synthesis of published material is "logical", but can't be used. Vanjagenije (talk) 23:00, 5 July 2018 (UTC)

No, it's not. SYNTH is combining two different sources to say something neither does. Let me ask you this. Do you consider persecution of Jews during the Holocaust "religious" or "Ethnic"? Armenians during the Armenian genocide? Assyrians during the Assyrian genocide? Khirurg (talk) 23:04, 5 July 2018 (UTC)

Several academics have written on reasons of the Kosovo War and Kosovo unrest in 2004. Egleder, Judah, Rausch etc say that everything happened due to a mixture of nationalism and sociopolitical peoblems. Herscher says that nationalist sentiments were reflected on calls for "revenge". Perritt is another academic who elaborates on the reasons of the 2004 unrest, and says that nationalist and socioeconomic problems (partly derived from uncertainties about Kosovo' s status) were the reasons. Herscher highlights that some mosques and churches were damaged or destroyed, and this due to nationalist sentiments. There is some crap on some blogs and YouTube videos that Albanians, Serbs, Croatians, Bosniaks etc were victims of religious violence. The scholarship does not support that. Ktrimi991 (talk) 23:06, 5 July 2018 (UTC)

Yes, of course there was nationalism, revenge, socioeconomic factors, etc...But there was also a religious component. Hundreds of Churches were vandalized. The fact there was nationalism and other factors does not exclude religion. There was ethnic and religious persecution by all sides. The two are not mutually exclusive. Here's a source btw [2]. Khirurg (talk) 23:16, 5 July 2018 (UTC)

Btw, as you often argue when it suits you, an encyclopedia falls under WP:IDTERTIARY. As I said above, several academics (among them some prominent on Kosovo-Serbia issues such as Tim Judah) elaborate on the reasons, and they do not mention religious hatred. Herscher highlights that some mosques and churches were damaged or destroyed, and this due to nationalist sentiments. In the case of churches during the Kosovo riots, they were damaged due to their identification with governmental forces of Yugoslavia. You have also Perritt who says that many of the KLA's leaders were Christian, and the KLA's actions were not driven by religion. The wars of Yugoslavia were violent, but not due to religious hatred. Ktrimi991 (talk) 23:22, 5 July 2018 (UTC)

There was ethnic and religious persecution by all sides Nope, only persecution of Serbs by the Ustashe is regarded in mainstream scholarship as having, among others, religious roots. Ktrimi991 (talk) 23:33, 5 July 2018 (UTC)

You asked for a source, and when one was presented, you started playing games ("It's a tertiary source"). The source is very high quality, there are no grounds to disqualify it. Instead and dropping names, can you point to specific passages in the sources you mentioned that explicitly state it wasn't religious persecution? Otherwise I will start an RfC. By the way you didn't answer my question about "off-wiki" incivility. Khirurg (talk) 23:42, 5 July 2018 (UTC)

Feel free to open a RfC. I will prepare the sources with quotes and will place them is a separate section to not mess this discussion. I did not forget the off-Wiki incivility issues, I will respond soon on my talk page. Do you want me to respond only with words or with evidence as well? Ktrimi991 (talk) 23:51, 5 July 2018 (UTC)

@Khirurg: So, all Serbs are Orthodox Christians now? This is so WP:SYNTH that it's painful to watch. An ethnic hatred inspired attack on a building some Serbs visit is definitely not enough to warrant inclusion in an article about persecution of the building's owners. Matter of elementary logic. byteflush _Talk 00:27, 6 July 2018 (UTC)

Well not all, but the overwhelming majority. See ethnoreligious group. And the Serbs were the building's owners (in the form of the Serbian Orthodox Church), not just visiting it. Anyway, if Ktrimi or someone else can provide high quality scholarly sources that explicitly state that this wasn't religious persecution, I'll drop this. Khirurg (talk) 00:50, 6 July 2018 (UTC)

Come on Khirurg, you know that's not how wiki works. You need sources to make an assertion. You do not need sources specifically showing it is false in order to remove unsourced WP:OR and WP:SYNTH connection making. This is the basis of the rules we all follow. We have been round and round this and let's be honest here, now that I have replied to you too, you're outnumbered 6 to 1 by a pretty diverse set of editors. What are you trying to accomplish?--Calthinus (talk) 03:33, 6 July 2018 (UTC)

Well, except your reply doesn't really address my point. I presented a high quality source. And numbers mean nothing, wikipedia is not a democracy. You know that's not how wiki works. Khirurg (talk) 04:12, 6 July 2018 (UTC)

(unindent) By the way, I just noticed the Persecution of Muslims article has a rather large section about Kosovo, with loads of graphic language. Double standard much? Khirurg (talk) 04:37, 6 July 2018 (UTC)

Ktrimi has already demonstrated the issue with that source. Of course sources can be dropped about the role of Christians (including Orthodox volunteers from Albania) in the KLA, the KLA's rejection of religious fanaticism (in favor of multifaith "nationalist fanaticism" perhaps) and so forth. Much of your argumentation here is a rehash of Sorabino-- for example the Holocaust analogy, when ironically the Holocaust was ethnic persecution in which anyone with Jewish ancestry was to be killed or even Christian Germans or Slavs who "looked Jewish" could be killed, while practitioners of Judaism who lacked Jewish ancestry or were considered um, "not racially Jewish" by the Nazis (like the Crimean Karaites) could be exempt-- it was anti-Semitic rather than anti-Judaic and most Holocaust Remembrance (at least in the United States that is) is careful to emphasize its origins in scientific racism gone wild rather than portray it as some Christian-Jewish religious conflict.

Bringing up the Muslims page is pretty weird, given that there isn't some competition (spoiler: both pages aren't great) between Christians and Muslims for who gets killed more, nor do we care about other crap that exists, and also kind of ironic to bring up in argument with me as during that dispute I broke ranks from team "Keep" and ended up having the same position as you while Ktrimi/Resnjari/Seraphim/etc criticized me for doing so. --Calthinus (talk) 04:48, 6 July 2018 (UTC) By the way I can somewhat understand where you're coming from as I suppose from a more Greek-focused perspective we do have the Greek genocide which could be called simultaneously ethnic and religious and equally both-- but that does not apply everywhere especially where there isn't a centuries old millet system that intentionally merged ethnic and religious identities still in place. Although I imagine some from Serbia may also perceive things this way (it is a bit more justified if we are talking about other historical events Serbs endured), the Albanian side which included Christian leadership and Orthodox volunteers certainly didn't, and for something to be "Persecution of Orthodox Christians" there has to be the intent-- lest we end up with "Persecution of toothbrushers", doorknob-users, and raki-drinkers.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with the source I presented. It is a high quality scholarly source. Did you read it? There is nothing weird about bringing up "Persecution of Muslims" either. There is a fundamental NPOV problem here. Persecution of Kosovo Albanians is persecution of Muslims (even though many Kosovo Albanians are Christian), but persecution of Serbs is not persecution of Orthodox Christians. It's the old our persecution is persecution, but their persecution is not persecution. No way. Khirurg (talk) 05:46, 6 July 2018 (UTC)

I actually dont have access to the page but Ktrimi seems clearly right here that as an encyclopedia being used for analysis it falls under WP:DONTUSETERTIARY and also lets be honest, he is right that I can very easily imagine you using that argument yourself and I'll take his word on it that you have. I may disagree with Ktrimi on the Muslims page as I do think it has some severe issues but imo, the reason those are still there is not "double standards" but the lack of good faith between editors and bilateral perceptions of "agendas" stops any meaningful dialogue on the issue from ever happening and the status quo is entrenched. And you can't say I didn't try. But I failed. Now we can have this page get even cruddier because avoiding double standards apparently means "let's make more articles with dubious SYNTHy emotionally charged arguments". Or we can not and work to improve issues on the margins when possible. I choose the latter. As have 5 other editors above me. No numbers do not decide who is right but sometimes they are a hint.--Calthinus (talk) 08:02, 6 July 2018 (UTC)

I am not able to write a long comment right now, and I am writing a few words. The Persecution of Muslims is not my work, I have never edited that article. Your source is WP:IDTERTIARY, and it counters with many academics who elaborate on the issue (among them are important academics on Kosovo-Serbia issues such as Tim Judah and Perritt). Your source actually says on page 568 During the UN-NATO occupation of Kosovo, some 200,000 Serb Orthodox Christians have been driven from Kosovo by ethnic extremists. Most of the remaining Serb Orthodox population in Kosovo lives in what are essentially ethnic ghettoes. Ktrimi991 (talk) 08:26, 6 July 2018 (UTC)

200,000 Serb Orthodox Christians = Persecution of Orthodox Christians. Khirurg (talk) 18:56, 6 July 2018 (UTC)

Pardon me but the image of a vandalized church "is" a result of anti-Christian sentiment. No matter if the perpetrators' main objective was not an ISIS-style elimination of specific religious groups.Alexikoua (talk) 17:36, 6 July 2018 (UTC)

Alexikoua Once upon a time a young man went on a rampage against a Protestant church in the US. A question, for you, do we automatically assume he was motivated by anti-Christian sentiment? What if I tell you his name was Dylan Roof, a Christian himself, and all the congregants were Black Americans? Doesn't that change things? --Calthinus (talk) 18:13, 6 July 2018 (UTC)

If an article about "anti-Black church sentiment" existed then this case would be a good addition.Alexikoua (talk) 18:30, 6 July 2018 (UTC)

No it is incredibly obvious that racism was the motive. And the motive is important. Otherwise, as Bobfrombrockley noted, we could end up with Persecution of toothbrush users. --Calthinus (talk) 18:32, 6 July 2018 (UTC)

(unindent) So would anyone here object if I removed the section about Kosovo from Persecution of Muslims? Khirurg (talk) 18:57, 6 July 2018 (UTC)

Well I can almost guarantee you Resnjari will read this whole conversation at some point in the future and though I can't speak for him, my vague future sensing abilities foresee Wiki Wars : Khirurg versus Resnjari Part XXXVI. As for me, I would have to see what the sources used in that section are saying, which I don't have time to do at the moment. If anyone wants to watch the duel with me I can host and have a nice supply of ouzo, raki and meze :). --Calthinus (talk) 19:13, 6 July 2018 (UTC)

The persecution of Albanians was not a religious one. That content must be deleted, otherwise it might cause disinformation and portray Albanians and Serbs as communities that base their identity on religious rather than ethnic values. For some examples of religious conflicts in the region see Greek Genocide, Turkish invasion of Cyprus, Aegean dispute, Population exchange between Greece and Turkey. Calthinus opened a discussion on that article's talk page, all interested editors can discuss there. Ktrimi991 (talk) 16:14, 7 July 2018 (UTC)

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Kosovo

The sources do not connect events in Kosovo with anti-Orthodoxy sentiments. The destruction of churches might happen for a variety of reasons, for example identification of them with an oppressing governmental force or a particular ethnic group. Ktrimi991 (talk) 12:43, 30 January 2018 (UTC)

Agreed, particularly if it might be that buildings other than churches are included as well. Having said that, if only churches are being destroyed, that might maybe be included in some article if that article is the one a separate article on the burnings, if that theoretical article were created and proposed for merger, might be merged into the one the material is actually being added to. John Carter (talk) 22:53, 30 January 2018 (UTC)

• I would like to inform all editors of this article that in the past few days user @Ktrimi991: made several failed attempts to remove entire sections in three different articles: Persecution of Christians and Persecution of Christians in the modern era, and also Anti-Orthodoxy. All those sections were relating to one subject: crimes of Muslim Albanians, committed against Christian Serbs in Kosovo and Metohija. The same user tried to delete all those sections unilaterally, before initiating this discussion on the talk pages. I would urge all editors to take a good look at the nature of all those deletions, since they were rightfully reverted by several editors. Sorabino (talk) 00:20, 1 February 2018 (UTC)

I think, with respect, that this is a slight misrepresentation. On this article, all Ktrimi991 has done as far as I can see is restore the 2 January version by Joefromrandb after the insertion by one anonymous editor of some (rather un-encyclopedic) text, cut and paste from other articles. The inserted material is dubious, because it attributes sectarian violence during a civil war situation to a particular motivation "Anti-Orthodoxy" without citing a single reliable source that suggests this motivation. So, instead of ad hominem attacks on an editor, perhaps Sorabino you could give us the case why this material should be in the article?BobFromBrockley (talk) 14:29, 1 February 2018 (UTC)

Also, you talk about Ktrimi991's "failed attempts", but from glancing at the edit history it looks like they "failed" because you insisted on reverting and refused to discuss on the talk pages. BobFromBrockley (talk) 14:32, 1 February 2018 (UTC)

@John Carter: @Bobfrombrockley Apart from churches, the target included shops, offices, cultural centers and institutions. The conflict in Kosovo, before, during and after war was caused by a mixture of nationalism and disappointment from economy and corruption. The UN secretary-general's report of April 30, 2004 described the events as "ethnically motivated violence". Sorabino is not replying so I think the section does not have to stay any longer. Ktrimi991 (talk) 13:45, 2 February 2018 (UTC)

@Ktrimi991: I am removing the section here. These tendentious attempts to misrepresent nationalist conflicts as religious ones needs to cease as they help absolutely no one on Wikipedia or in the real world either.--Calthinus (talk) 07:01, 9 February 2018 (UTC)

Some observes described the persecution of Kosovo Serbs as persecution of Christians. There is also many Serbian scholars.--WEBDuB (talk) 17:22, 3 May 2020 (UTC)

References