Talk:Perche

Départements created from Perche: only two of the four mentioned?

In the first paragraph, I added the following text (given below in italics) containing matching information from each of the given départements' individual articles:

Perche is a former province of northern France extending over the départements of Orne, Eure, Eure-et-Loir and Sarthe, which were created from Perche during the French Revolution.

I first checked with each département's article to verify they were "...one of the original 83 departments created during the French Revolution..." Each of them contained this phrasing. So, logically the province of Perche was broken up into départements at that time.

The problem is upon comparing my edit with the original articles, I saw that:

Eure "was created from part of the former province of Normandy," and

Sarthe was created "starting from a part of the province of Maine which was divided into two departments, Sarthe to the east and Mayenne to the west."

However, the Eure-et-Loir and Sarthe articles state that each of them were created at least in part from Perche.

Another problem is that only one of the 4 département articles, Sarthe, has a References section at all and it is minimal.

I'm sorry that I can only point these problems out, and I thank in advance those who can research, document, and write up the correct information.

Articles involved and potentially needing attention: Zacharie Cloutier (which got me into this), Perche, Orne, Eure, Eure-et-Loir, Sarthe, and possibly other articles besides Cloutier's which mention the Percheron Immigration from Perche to New France in modern-day Canada.

Thanks again, Geekdiva (talk) 13:27, 28 January 2011 (UTC)

Town listing with distances

Hello all- I want to make known to others who may be watching this article that I have reverted, three times now, Aboudaqn's listing of towns and their distances from a "near-center" geographic point. I do not find this list to be an improvement, and I'm sure it is not standard practice to have such a list in an article of this type. Please feel free to comment here. Pinging editors from last couple years: @Geo Swan, Markussep, Suslindisambiguator, John K, Rrostrom, and Piledhigheranddeeper: Eric ^talk 12:59, 21 March 2018 (UTC)

Hello Eric & Co.: Please stop making individual decisions and undoing people's honest efforts. I have added information. If you feel it is somehow inappropriate, please discuss first. Please also be sure to add some authoritative reference to your decision-making. My decision process so far: I have added information (list of towns with Perche that appear on the map, which facilitates use of map), plus other nearby surrounding towns and cities. IMHO, I have added value to the article.Aboudaqn (talk) 15:06, 21 March 2018 (UTC)

I have no "authority" as you put it; just common sense, knowledge of common practice on department articles, and an awareness that Wikipedia is a collaborative encyclopedia and not a place for exercising unilateral whimsy. You may want to consult Wikipedia:WikiProject French departments. Eric ^talk 16:12, 21 March 2018 (UTC)

Thank you for the link Wikipedia:WikiProject French departments. I find my additions fully in keeping with this page. Further, I am adding content: rather than fixing, you are simply removing. I find your approach destructive and non-collaborative. I have made the time and effort to provide content: before you destroy, please first read, consider, and then suggest if not improve. Aboudaqn (talk) 00:59, 22 March 2018 (UTC)

"The" Perche

Folks (many of whom may not speak French), the name of the region/province/county should always have the definite article precede it when used alone, whether in Frech (Le Perche) or English (the Perche). Here is an example from one of the foremost authorities on this topic:

The Perche was not based on an existing administratative unit, such as its neighbors, the counties of Maine and Chartres, nor was it coterminous with an ecclesiastical jurisdiction. It grew up at the margins of several larger units, and there was no major population focus nor great religious centre such as a cathedral or ancient abbey within it. It owed its existence to the ambition and energy of successive members of a lineage of warrior elite.

Check the footnotes–online through citation.

References

Same thing in French: FR:Perche (province):

L'ancienne province du Perche est une région historique et politique française. Sa capitale fut selon les époques Bellême, Mortagne-au-Perche ou Nogent-le-Rotrou. Le Perche est aujourd'hui une région naturelle, voir Perche (région naturelle). Ses habitants sont les Percherons.

(READ before undoing other people's work!)

— Preceding unsigned comment added by Aboudaqn (talk • contribs) 00:30–00:33 (3 edits), 22 March 2018 (UTC)

Not in English. This is the English Wikipedia. If you took the time to look around here, you would discover that you are in the wrong. Eric ^talk 01:05, 22 March 2018 (UTC)

That one English source uses "the Perche" doesn't mean that this is standard English usage. Could you provide some evidence as to the prevalence of this usage in English? Remember, we shouldn't be cherry-picking one source that happens to use the usage we like. We should try to get a broad sense of what English usage typically is. john k (talk) 21:04, 22 March 2018 (UTC)

A quick look on Google Books suggests that both forms are used, but that "the Perche" is less common than just "Perche." (I got 704,000 results on Google Books for just "Perche," as compared to only 9,210 for "the Perche".) john k (talk) 21:07, 22 March 2018 (UTC)

Sorry, but does it make sense to use more common but less correct form? I disagree. If you look in this scholarly book, you'll see "the Perche" used consistently, page after page: https://books.google.com/books?id=SJJ6SKK2nZAC&q=perche#v=snippet&q=perche&f=false Why should we Wikipedians encourage people continue to use incorrect terminology? Aboudaqn (talk) 20:35, 16 April 2018 (UTC)

You have provided no evidence that "the Perche" is more correct, or that there is any issue of "correctness" here at all, rather than a matter of differing conventions. You have shown that one scholarly book uses "the Perche." That's fine - I don't think anyone's disputing that "the Perche" is sometimes used in English. On the other hand, the New York Times, generally considered a reliable source for English usage, uses "Le Perche" (capitalized "Le"). Other sources just use "Perche." If you want to show that "the Perche" is the standard scholarly usage, you need more than one source. Ideally, you'd find a scholarly source that explicitly talks about which form to use, and explains why "the Perche" is the best. john k (talk) 12:16, 17 April 2018 (UTC)

Another thought for Americans (who may not know about correct usage of "the" with former or current countries or regions abroad like The Netherlands or The Sudan (now the nation of Sudan): do you say The Bronx or just Bronx?

You cite a couple exceptions to the overwhelmingly prevalent English usage that does not use "the" in front of placenames. "The Netherlands" is plural, "Sudan" has been more common than "the Sudan" for decades, "the Bronx" is atypical, and apparently derives from the possessive of a name (linked text added Sept 3 by Eric). We do not translate directly from French l'Angleterre, la Bourgogne, la Provence, le Texas, l'Alsace, la Russie, etc, etc, etc. An objective look at how English treats placenames will make this clear. Eric ^talk 22:22, 16 April 2018 (UTC)

While it is true that English tends not to have definite articles in front of place names, and French does, there are also plenty of English place names that do have articles (especially where the name is of a more topographical nature). "The Orient", "the Midwest", and "the Marches" spring to mind. And yes, "the Dourdogne" and "the Côte d'Azur" in France as well. I don't have a strong feeling here, though. Maybe if I had a really strong tie to the region, but I don't. --Piledhigheranddeeper (talk) 15:20, 18 April 2018 (UTC)

Thanks for the tuppence, @PHD. I thought of Côte d'Azur as well when I was initially trying to think of exceptions, but it is just that, an exception, and sans the the is more prevalent in Google Books at any rate; same for Dordogne. I don't say "the" before either of those French area names, though I have heard it. My point is that when we talk about specific counties, departments, administrative regions, countries, the overwhelmingly prevalent usage is without "the". When speaking of counties, anglophones don't say I visited "the Yorkshire", "the Dorset", or "the Tupelo". Eric ^talk 16:16, 18 April 2018 (UTC)

(Re)-pinging editors from last couple years, FYI all: @Geo Swan, Markussep, Suslindisambiguator, Rrostrom, and Piledhigheranddeeper:: Wikipedia:Administrators'_noticeboard/Edit_warring#User:Aboudaqn_reported_by_User:Eric_(Result:_) Eric ^talk 11:29, 18 April 2018 (UTC)

@Eric:@Cblambert:@John K:@Jllm06:@Olivier:@Brian0918:@Geo Swan, Markussep, Suslindisambiguator, Rrostrom, and Piledhigheranddeeper: I believe I have credibly resolved the issue that "Perche" should always have "the" proceed it in English: please see list of credible sources under Miscellaneous, which includes the usage of "the Perche" in Britannica from 1890 into the 2000s). Again, I have done my homework: please leave unchanged unless a similar list of credible sources sufficiently counters this one. (Eric, if you don't mind, feel free to ask for editor intervention again at this point – I still don't quite see how to do so myself, so I would appreciate your help.) Gratefully --Aboudaqn (talk) 17:21, 20 August 2018 (UTC)

I have no firm attachment to whether a leading article is important.

About fifteen years ago there was a discussion as to whether Guantanamo should bear the accent it has, in Spanish, here, on the English language wikipedia. Some highly respected references give it an accent, including the Nytimes. But, we decided we would not do so. Every so often someone starts adding accents to Guantanamo, and they are convinced to stop.

Someone could come along and make a convincing case we should use the accents after all.

Some of our decisions are arbitrary, as we are amateurs, and don't understand the underlying issues, on which even scholars disagree. It is a reason to be open to being convinced to reverse one of our traditions.

On the other hand, reversing a tradition can be a lot of work, 1000s of hours even, time, it could be argued, that should probably be reserved for more important work.

Cheers! Geo Swan (talk) 17:47, 20 August 2018 (UTC)

We can find all kinds of awkward direct translations of foreign names in English works. Merely listing published mistranslations of le Perche does not justify our adding "the" before a county name in an English sentence. Eric ^talk 19:09, 20 August 2018 (UTC)

It's not a mistranslation. It's an arbitrary choice, with no one correct answer. We should follow our general guidelines, which say we should use the most common form in English. For example, the French region is called le Maine, but we neither use that nor "the Maine" in English, we just call it Maine. The city of Le Mans, on the other hand, keeps its French article. Other regions that in French use a definite article did in fact traditionally translate their articles into the english "the", though I'm having trouble thinking of any where that is particularly common at present. But we should base our choice as much as possible on "most common form in English." I don't think that is "the Perche," but I'd be interested to see more attempts to quantify this. john k (talk) 00:52, 30 August 2018 (UTC)

I remain confident that I have taken regular steps that show documentation – would that Eric would do the same, and I would happily defer! --Aboudaqn (talk) 23:32, 20 August 2018 (UTC)

Aboudaqn, no matter how many erroneous translations you cite, you will never prove that direct translation of French article usage into English is correct. Please stop introducing errors into the text of this article. You would do well to familiarize yourself with English usage before you continue to edit the English Wikipedia. Eric ^talk 23:40, 20 August 2018 (UTC)

Eric Since you refuse to examine my efforts, mischaracterize them, and now make thinly veiled threats against my future participation on Wikipedia, I have escalated for help from others.--Aboudaqn (talk) 14:16, 2 September 2018 (UTC)

You have no idea what I have "examined". And, though I doubt it would make much difference were it otherwise, you are unaware of how much training and professional work I have done as a French-to-English translator. Eric ^talk 16:24, 2 September 2018 (UTC)

RFC: the Perche vs. Perche

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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Should the name of an historic county in France appear throughout its English Wikipedia article as "the Perche" or "Perche"?--Aboudaqn (talk) 13:56, 2 September 2018 (UTC)

Recommendation: Use "the Perche" throughout the article. Why? Reputable, authoritative English-language publishers (Oxford University Press, Cambridge University Press, Yale University Press) publish books in English that refer to "the Perche." Encyclopedias – first and foremost the Encyclopedia Britannia – for more than a century – has referred to "the Perche." So do specialist books in history, travel, agriculture, and horse-breeding (since the Perche is best known today for its Percheron horses).

References: Here is a list of citations I have added to this article to demonstrate such – which have received instant "undo" and a stream of steadily going threats about whether I may remain a Wikipedian:

• Encyclopedia Britannica (1890-2003)
• Encyclopedia of Monasticism (2013)
• An Etymological Dictionary of Modern English (2012)
• The Oxford Handbook of the History of Consumption (2012)
• Fodor's Exploring France (1999)
• Michelin Green Guide Normandy (2012, 2016)
• Power and Border Lordship in Medieval France: The County of the Perche, 1000-1226 (2002)
• The Virgin and the Grail: Origins of a Legend (2008)
• The Missouri Yearbook of Agriculture: Annual Report, Volume 44 (1912)
• A History of the Percheron Horse (1917)
• Queensland Agricultural Journal, Volumes 15-16 (1921)
• The Rise and Fall of the Second Empire, 1852-1871 (1988)
• The Forgotten Pollution (2013)
• Campaigning for Napoleon: The Diary of a Napoleonic Cavalry Officer (1806 -1813) (2007)

References

Accuracy: The bottom-line issue is accuracy, not the minor matter over the specific name of a centuries-old, now unofficial, historic province or county in Lower Normandy, France. Like all other publishers, Wikipedia must strive for accuracy in its publications. I have provided a long, varied list of reputable sources. If no one else can provide an equally reliable list of sources, then please let's adopt "the Perche" – and hold to such an approach for any all such disputes.

Thank you. (Please pardon any formatting issues.) --Aboudaqn (talk) 19:09, 3 September 2018 (UTC)

All: Please see the discussion under "The" Perche above. And note that it is a common tendency for writers not familiar with translation in general, or the relationship between English and French in specific, to directly translate parts of speech such as definite articles into English in a way that is not conventional in English usage. Eric ^talk 20:52, 3 September 2018 (UTC)

Why do you continue to insist that "translation" is involved in any of the books above? They are English-language books, not French-language. They are not translating French. English... --Aboudaqn (talk) 22:22, 3 September 2018 (UTC)

I clicked on the first reference to the Encyclopedia Britannica Vol xiv, and the subject listing goes from LAO-TZE to LAPIDARY. Of what is this meant to be evidence? I don't see "the Perche" nor "Perche" anywhere. --Cornellier (talk) 02:34, 5 September 2018 (UTC)

Hello, Cornellier, and welcome to the chaos. Please keep in mind that for some of us, edit count might have higher priority than edit precision. Here's the Perche article on Brittanica.com. And here's the English version of perche-quebec.com Worth noting perhaps that the people of Québec are quite accustomed to translation between French and English. Eric ^talk 03:09, 5 September 2018 (UTC)

• Comment: Aboudaqn, Britannica does not use "the", as Eric demonstrated above [1]. Your other "citations" appear to be either downright bogus (none of the dozen Britannica citations use "the"; at least two of the other sources use "Perche" without "the"; and two do not even mention "Perche" in English), extremely obscure, or cherry-picked. Softlavender (talk) 06:27, 5 September 2018 (UTC)
• Omit "the", in accordance with Encyclopædia Britannica: [2]. -- Softlavender (talk) 11:03, 5 September 2018 (UTC)
• Perche and not the Perche, per WP:COMMONNAME --Cornellier (talk) 23:37, 5 September 2018 (UTC)
• I have yet to see any real evidence that "the Perche" is at all common in English. (Both "Perche" and "le Perche" seem more usual). I say stick with "Perche". john k (talk) 01:17, 6 September 2018 (UTC)
• Comment. I've had a look at a random sampe of four of the 27 refs provided by Aboudaqn above, and 3 of them don't support their argument: [3] has a single mention of an unrelated La Perche (a mountain pass in Spain), [4] only uses the phrase "the Perche region" (where the definite article applies to "region", not "Perche"), [5] uses both "the Perche" and "le Perche", [6] only talks about "du Perche", which is the name of a family. – Uanfala (talk) 15:04, 9 September 2018 (UTC)
• Perche instead of the Perche --Nuujinn (talk) 15:35, 9 September 2018 (UTC)
• No the. Nom has failed to make his case, per Eric and others above. Perche occurs more often in English sources without "the", and when "the" is included it's often in "the Perche hills", or "the Perche region", or "the Perche countryside"; or something where "the Perche" really stands for "the Perche region", an elision that's not uncommon, but not standard, in English. Dicklyon (talk) 03:50, 23 September 2018 (UTC)
• Perche. I find more relevance in Aboudaqn's references than some other commenters do, but it's obvious they are not meant as a representative sample but to support one particular conclusion. There isn't an accuracy issue here. Wikipedia uses reliable source for its facts, but not for its language. The language of Wikipedia articles comes from common usage, particularly when it comes to names WP:COMMONNAME, so a simple Google search is informative. Mine shows that both Perche and Le Perche are used as the noun without one being obviously more common than the other. But I am biased toward Perche because it is the more normal English construction for names. So as long as it is a commonly used form, I'm for using it in Wikipedia. Bryan Henderson (giraffedata) (talk) 02:33, 28 September 2018 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Follow-up discussion

This might have implications for the content at Camargue (which is full of lots of "the Camargue"). There are probably others. I think Ukraine was already cleaned up in his regard.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  14:13, 9 November 2018 (UTC)