Talk:Palestine/Archive 21

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The region of Palestine- paragraph 2

Would it be more neutral if the opening paragraph of the Palestineregion would say the same thing as the Israel region: " In antiquity, it was home to the Canaanite civilization followed by the kingdoms of Israel and Judah.". Mommer264 (talk) 16:04, 30 December 2024 (UTC)

Why? Slatersteven (talk) 16:06, 30 December 2024 (UTC)

Edit requests should comply with WP:EDITXY. This request does not. You do not need to answer the why question. You need to submit a request that complies with the requirements for non-extendedconfirmed editors. You cannot participate in consensus forming discussions. So, an edit request that complies or nothing. Those are your choices. Sean.hoyland (talk) 16:15, 30 December 2024 (UTC)

Which will lead to silly circular rejections, as edit requests have to be noncontroversial, but they will not be able to make a case as they can not "participate in consensus forming discussions", they have a catch 22. Slatersteven (talk) 16:21, 30 December 2024 (UTC)

If an editor needs to 'make a case' it is either a malformed edit request or not an edit request at all. Non-extended confirmed editors have to follow the 'Warning: active arbitration remedies' instructions' and are only allowed to submit edit requests. Things that are not edit requests should be rejected. Sean.hoyland (talk) 16:33, 30 December 2024 (UTC)

Yep, about the size of it, archiving this, therefore. Selfstudier (talk) 16:56, 30 December 2024 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request October 26, 2024

There are 2 bare URLs in the "References" section. I have created full citations for those URLs:

• "Request for the admission of the State of Palestine to UNESCO as a Member State". UNESCO. May 12, 1989. Retrieved October 26, 2024.

• "Manufacturing sector expected to grow by 2.5% and absorb 79,000 jobs in six years – Ministry of Economy". WAFA. September 26, 2023. Retrieved October 26, 2024.

Please convert those bare URLs into citations. Thank you.

(Note: The bare URLs are already marked as such. Just do Ctrl+F search of "bare URL" to find them) ApexParagon (talk) 03:08, 27 October 2024 (UTC)

 Done Thanks for picking those up. ClaudineChionh (she/her · talk · contribs · email) 03:45, 27 October 2024 (UTC)

Religion in the State of Palestine

The newly-edited page shows that 99% of people in the State of Palestine are Muslims, and less than one percent are Christians. However, there is no credible source provided for this claim, and there exists Samaritans and Druze in the State of Palestine, both of whom are not listed on the page. Furthermore, in the demographics section, it is stated that 99% of Palestinians are Muslim, but no credible source is provided. In reality, Professor Bernard Sabella of Bethlehem University estimated in 2000 that 6.5% of all Palestinians are Christians.[1]

It is also claimed that Islam is the official religion of the State of Palestine, but the Constitution of the State of Palestine does not explicitly state this. Rather, the Palestinian Constitution states that Islam is the official Palestinian religion, and that Christianity, as well as other monotheistic religions, shall be equally respected.[2]

I would have corrected the above errors myself, but the website does not allow for me to do it. Therefore, I am asking for one of you to correct these errors. Thank you for your help. SirCapybara (talk) 04:18, 2 January 2025 (UTC)

Since 2000, the number of Palestinian Christians in the OPT had decreased substantially. The absolute percentage had decreased since them due to emigration and a higher Muslim TFR. In 2017, it was estimated that there are about 50,000 Palestinian Christians residing in the State of Palestine, comprising less than 1% of the Palestinian population of 5.5 million. Samaritans and Druze in Palestine number less than 1,000 people. [3] The official religion is Islam. The constitution's minority protections do not change this. 2018rebel 06:55, 2 January 2025 (UTC)

Also the 6.5% number seems to include all Palestinians globally, including the diaspora, rather than legal residents of the State of Palestine. 2018rebel 06:58, 2 January 2025 (UTC)

The number of Palestinian Christians in the Occupied Palestinian Territories has not decreased, so your claim is factually incorrect. You have provided no sources for your claims, and referencing the "Minority Rights Group" does not constitute a fact-based source on the percentage of Christians in the State of Palestine. If you go and read the article, they claim Palestinian Christians are less than 1% of the population without any evidence.

Furthermore, I implore you read my comment, instead of trying to infiltrate Wikipedia with propaganda. You did not dispute my comment on the constitution with any sources, so it is clear you are just writing based on your opinion. Also, to address your last point, the article makes it appear that 1% of Palestinians globally are Christian, which is why I brought up the need to address this error. Next time, read what people write. SirCapybara (talk) 07:05, 2 January 2025 (UTC)

I think it would be best for the article to be reverted to the previous version, ensuring that incorrect pieces of information about the demographics of the State of Palestine are not in the article. Nobody should be able to edit the contents of the article based on an opinion that is not supported by any neutral source. SirCapybara (talk) 07:18, 2 January 2025 (UTC)

What source do you have that supports the claim that the Palestinian Central Bureau of Statistics is not a credible or neutral source for population statistics about its own territory? [4] 2018rebel 07:22, 2 January 2025 (UTC)

This article is not about Palestinians globally. For that, the correct article is Palestinians. According to the Palestinian Central Bureau of Statistics, there were 46,850 Christians, 1,384 others, and 4,615,683 Muslims at the time of the 2017 Census. Thus, the Christian percentage is 0.98%. [5]https://www.pcbs.gov.ps/portals/_pcbs/PressRelease/Press_En_Preliminary_Results_Report-en.pdf#page=11.08 2018rebel 07:19, 2 January 2025 (UTC)

Can you provide the source of this information, such as the report by the bureau? Otherwise, it is just another unsubstantiated claim that you are making. Also, I know that the article is not about Palestinians globally. However, when you made the edit, you wrote that 99% of Palestinians are Muslim. As you may know, Palestinians exist both inside and outside of the State of Palestine. SirCapybara (talk) 07:22, 2 January 2025 (UTC)

Nevermind, I see that you sent it now. However, this is not the source you are using on the article. To pretend that Druze and Samaritans do not exist in the State of Palestine is to provide inaccurate information. Revert it back and stop writing based on your personal opinion. SirCapybara (talk) 07:25, 2 January 2025 (UTC)

The source has been changed to use the PCSB instead. However, the previous MRG source cited the same data from the PCSB. 2018rebel 07:37, 2 January 2025 (UTC)

I still appeal for the page to be reverted to the previous version. The demographics section now appears confusing for the reader and is not accurate. The Druze and Samaritans still exist, and the integrity of the page should be upheld. SirCapybara (talk) 07:49, 2 January 2025 (UTC)

Do you have a reliable source supporting that a statistically significant Druze community exists in the State of Palestine? 2018rebel 08:23, 2 January 2025 (UTC)

They would be in the 'other' category of the 2017 census, alongside Samaritans. However, we do not know the exact figure, as this is not stated in the census. It is not for me to judge if they are "statistically significant" or not, considering the religious importance of the Palestine subject. Therefore, you should revert your changes and stop writing based on speculation. SirCapybara (talk) 08:34, 2 January 2025 (UTC)

I can't find any source supporting the existence of an organized Druze community in the State of Palestine. 2018rebel 08:39, 2 January 2025 (UTC)

That's because there is no authoritative statistical source on this matter. The only categories provided are Muslims, Christians, and then "others" in the census. It can be assumed that this refers to Druze and Samaritans, but we can't be sure. However, these groups do exist, and we shouldn't write as if they don't. SirCapybara (talk) 08:48, 2 January 2025 (UTC)

If it would be better, statistical figures, such as percent, can be omitted due to conflicting figured and uncertainty. SirCapybara (talk) 08:49, 2 January 2025 (UTC)

Because the numbers of Druze and Samaritians who are exclusively citizens of the State of Palestine is essentially 0%, that's why you can't find the percentage, because it's not statistically significant at all. They're just about almost nonexistent. Mathmo ^Talk 10:15, 5 January 2025 (UTC)

Claims on Wikipedia must be verifiable (WP:V). "Even if you are sure something is true, it must have been previously published in a reliable source before you can add it." 2018rebel 08:56, 2 January 2025 (UTC)

Like we have told you, there are conflicting figures pertaining to the numbers of Christians, Samaritans, and Druze. However, you are taking one source and deeming it authoritative in order to describe Samaritans as not significant enough to be included. SirCapybara (talk) 09:01, 2 January 2025 (UTC)

The source is an official census conducted by the State of Palestine for the purpose of gathering information about its citizenry. However, I have updated the article to include other. But, there is no breakdown provided by the PCBS of the other category, and if data existed publically, breaking down the category further would result in the numbers potentially rounding to 0%. 2018rebel 09:11, 2 January 2025 (UTC)

Thanks, I would just recommend omitting percentages due to the existence of competing estimates. For example, you could say Islam is the majority and Christianity is a minority. Then, you can also include others or Samaritans if you wish. Sorry for the trouble. SirCapybara (talk) 17:17, 2 January 2025 (UTC)

As a proportion of the total population, then yes the number of Christians have been decreasing. Or maybe you're thinking instead of Israel itself? As yes, in Israel the numbers of Christians have been growing. ~~~ Mathmo ^Talk 10:11, 5 January 2025 (UTC)

2020 religious demography resource here based on academic research. Worth noting that illegal Israeli settlers are part of the geographically delineated State of Palestine, so taken as a whole the Muslim population is 80% and Jews make up a sizeable proportion of the population. The same source gives a 98% figure for adherence to Islam within the solely Palestinian portion of the population. Iskandar323 (talk) 07:55, 2 January 2025 (UTC)

This article and the demographics only consider Palestinian citizens residing in the territory claimed by the State of Palestine. That data would be better suited for the Occupied Palestinian territories article. The source is uncertain about the number of Christians, meaning that if the data were to be used, it would have to be grouped under other, to prevent original research. 2018rebel 08:08, 2 January 2025 (UTC)

Nothing sourced is original research. The source notes that there are competing estimates. More broadly, I suspect you will find that there are will be no perfectly authoritative statistical resource to be found on this topic. Iskandar323 (talk) 08:34, 2 January 2025 (UTC)

However, the closest thing we have is the PCSB. 2018rebel 08:37, 2 January 2025 (UTC)

For clarity area of Occupied Palestinian territories = State of Palestine claimed areas. Selfstudier (talk) 11:05, 2 January 2025 (UTC)

However, settlers are included in the population in that infobox, but are not included in the infobox of this article. 2018rebel 18:32, 2 January 2025 (UTC)

According to the OP "I did leave an edit request, which isn't being acted upon. Currently, the page is vandalized with propaganda. Thanks."

So where are we with this, are we done? Selfstudier (talk) 19:13, 2 January 2025 (UTC)

I thought we were, but the editor just undid the reversion. SirCapybara (talk) 00:36, 7 January 2025 (UTC)

That seemed to be a misunderstanding I caused between me and @Remsense, due to my failure to fully describe my changes in my edit summary. I mentioned it on their user talk page. I reimplemented some of the changes, including the update to 2017 census data, removal of the main article hatnote in the religion section, and the addition of the Bah'ai population. However, I did not implement the removal of the unsourced ethnic groups or the link to the Palestinian Jews article in the hatnote, since those seemed to be more controversial to whether or not Wikipedia:Verifiability, not truth and Wikipedia:Topic were applicable. 2018rebel 00:49, 7 January 2025 (UTC)

You are infringing on the neutrality of Wikipedia in this conflict. If we are going to state that Islam is the official religion of the State of Palestine due to the Basic Law, ignoring the involvement of Christians in the PLO and the Palestinian Authority, then we should also make clear that Judaism is the official religion of the State of Israel, considering the fact that Israel's Basic Law of 1992 states that the State of Israel is a Jewish and Democratic state.[6]

Furthermore, the World Factbook only provides an estimated range for the religious demographics of the West Bank and Gaza, not exact figures.[7] SirCapybara (talk) 01:05, 7 January 2025 (UTC)

From article four: "Islam shall be the official religion in Palestine." Jewish state in the Israeli sense refers to its characterization as a nation state. Islam is described as the official religion in Palestinian law. If your task issue with that, then your problem is with the Palestinian Legislative Council. Wikipedia is meant to convey the truth from a NPOV, not object to Palestinian law based on your opinions.

The World Factbook provides a 2012 estimate, which is older than the 2017 census. Additionally, it includes Israeli settlers, which are not included in the population statistics in this article. 2018rebel 01:24, 7 January 2025 (UTC)

Your interpretation of Israeli law is irrelevant to the article, and your opinion shouldn't be conveyed through Wikipedia. You claim that "Wikipedia is meant to convey the truth from a NPOV, not object to Palestinian law based on your opinions", but you are using your interpretation of Israel's Basic Law to not include Judaism as the official religion of the State of Israel. Frankly, you should take your own advice.

Furthermore, the The World Factbook isn't invalid because its estimate is older than the 2017 census, which doesn't provide any percentages. Any other issues you have with basic comprehension? SirCapybara (talk) 01:32, 7 January 2025 (UTC)

It is not worth engaging with you further, since it is clear that you want to push a POV. If you want, you can read the sources provided in the Jewish state article to prove that it is not OR (see Wikipedia:No original research). If you claim that Palestine has no state religion, then start by mentioning it on Talk:State religion and ask for it to be removed. 2018rebel 01:39, 7 January 2025 (UTC)

My POV is to defend Wikipedia's neutrality in the conflict. I do not blame you for not engaging further, as I have repeatedly shown that you are spreading propaganda and original research. I am not claiming that Palestine has no state religion, but rather that we should describe the State of Israel in the same manner, while also using the CIA Factbook for religious demographics, as is done for most other countries around the world. SirCapybara (talk) 01:43, 7 January 2025 (UTC)

OK, this is now an unproductive discussion with a non EC editor and I am going to archive it. Selfstudier (talk) 10:00, 7 January 2025 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 29 November 2024

In the part about years 1947-1948 and the partition plan, this article fails to mention that the partition plan was agreed by the Israeli side, and declined by the arab side. It also states that a civil war had started, without mentioning that 6 Arab countries joined the attack on 1948 (started as a civil war, and became a war between countries). 38.87.93.153 (talk) 07:34, 29 November 2024 (UTC)

 Not done for now: please establish a consensus for this alteration before using the {{Edit extended-protected}} template. Remsense ‥ 论 07:35, 29 November 2024 (UTC)

Currently it says in part In 1947, the UN adopted a partition plan for a two-state solution in the remaining territory of the mandate. The plan was accepted by the Jewish leadership but rejected by the Arab leaders, and Britain refused to implement the plan. Am I missing something? I believe this is accurate and verifiable, but it's not currently supported by any inline sources, and should be. Andrewa (talk) 06:57, 6 December 2024 (UTC)

"State of Palestine'" listed at Redirects for discussion

The redirect State of Palestine' has been listed at redirects for discussion to determine whether its use and function meets the redirect guidelines. Readers of this page are welcome to comment on this redirect at Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2024 December 7 § State of Palestine' until a consensus is reached. Ca ^{talk to me!} 15:01, 7 December 2024 (UTC)