Talk:Oriol Junqueras/Archive 1

Archive 1

Requested move 18 September 2016

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: Withdrawn by nominator. — Rwxrwxrwx (talk) 13:47, 25 September 2016 (UTC)

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(non-admin closure)

Oriol Junqueras i Vies → Oriol Junqueras – Policy at WP:COMMONNAME. He is always known as Oriol Junqueras, except in formal contexts. — Rwxrwxrwx (talk) 20:39, 18 September 2016 (UTC)

• Clearly no objection, but since nominators should generally not close discussions, I'll withdraw it and do a technical move. — Rwxrwxrwx (talk) 13:47, 25 September 2016 (UTC)

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The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Nationality: Spanish or Catalan?

When describing Junqueras's nationality, it is important to note the definition of Nationality. Nation and Nation State are two separate concepts. Catalonia is officially designated as a nationality by its Statute of Autonomy . Therefore, it is correct to say that Oriol Junqueras is of Catalan Nationality but Spanish Citizenship, even if Catalan is a constituent Nationality of Spanish. Also, I should point out that many wikipedia articles use the adjective of ethnicity as well as nationality. DewyBukiaPeters (talk) 11:51, 26 October 2017 (UTC)

You seem to be assuming something not in evidence, namely that when the lede sentence says "Spanish" or "Catalan" it is referring to "nationality" rather than "citizenship." A quick look at articles about American politicians (for example, Marco Rubio, Susana Martinez, Rick Scott) should demonstrate that it is standard practice on English Wikipedia to mention only what you are describing as "citizenship" in the first sentence of an article about a politician (all of the American politicians I mentioned are described simply as "American") and issues of "nationality" come up later if needed ("Cuban American" for Rubio, "Hispanic" for Martinez). In that context, there is nothing wrong or misleading with describing Junqueras as "a Spanish historian and politician", so I'm going to make that change. He is Spanish. You don't even dispute that. He is also Catalan, and if you feel it is necessary to state that explicitly, then there is room to include that information in another sentence somewhere in the lede (although I think it will end up looking awkwardly redundant), but it doesn't have to be in the first sentence. LacrimosaDiesIlla (talk) 13:42, 26 October 2017 (UTC)

In the source I added, the subject himself states that in his "National Document of Identity" (DNI) it states that he is Spanish. Please do not remove it, as it clarifies the issue. The term used in that ID for all Spanish citizens is "Nacionalidad" which translates as nationality. It could be defended that he also has an additional Catalan nationality due to that statue of Autonomy so both could be listed but it should be clarified, there would need to be a reliable source that states it directly (example "Junqueras has Catalan nationality" etc.) so there is no need to use original research to extract the information. And in any case, if it can be properly sourced I think it should be included in the body and not in the lead to avoid confusion. --Crystallizedcarbon (talk) 15:00, 26 October 2017 (UTC)

Ok, if there is debate and confusion about the definition of nationality due to translation, may I suggest we keep the adjective removed altogether? DewyBukiaPeters (talk) 15:22, 26 October 2017 (UTC)

@Crystallizedcarbon: Your own position is open to criticism. You have not provided evidence that the DNI says "Nacionalidad" for all citizens or that the most appropriate and germane translation of that term is "nationality" rather than "citizenship". It is also obviously true (particularly depending on the sense the word is being used in) that people can have multiple "nationalities". Besides, if you read the interview fairly, Junqueras is obviously distancing himself from any kind of Spanish identity while admitting the brute legal fact that he is still at this point in time a citizen of Spain and so technically Spanish. But when asked point blank if he is Spanish or not, he insists that it's not that simple and offers "emotionally, no". @DewyBukiaPeters: As for removing the adjectives altogether, I am not in favor. It is true that Junqueras is Spanish in one sense, and it is true that he is Catalan in another. Both of these things are facts, and we should not have to dance this delicately on eggshells to placate people who don't like facts. I am open to suggestions for how we can compromise on the way we refer to his Spanish and Catalan identities, however. To both of you (and anyone else), what about "Catalan ethnicity", "Catalan identity", "Catalan background", "Catalan extraction", and "Catalan heritage"? Surely at least one of those, or some other term, must be acceptable to all sides as a reasonable and fair description of the reality of the situation here. LacrimosaDiesIlla (talk) 15:49, 26 October 2017 (UTC)

File:Dni3anverso.jpg

Dni3anverso

For your reference I have included an image in commons (click to enlarge) of the Spanish DNI and the translation of "nacionalidad" into English by oxfordictionaries. There is no doubt that according to the reliable source in the article he is (at least for now) Spanish. In the body where it is mentioned that he is pro-independence, a reference could be made to the fact that even though he is a citizen of Spain according to an interview he does not consider himself Spanish emotionally.--Crystallizedcarbon (talk) 16:09, 26 October 2017 (UTC)

My point was not that you were wrong about the DNI, but that your argument and your point rested on claims that were not in evidence in the article, in your reference, or in your comments. You still have not shown that "nationality" is "the most appropriate or germane translation" of this term in this context, and you have not at all responded to the point that people can have multiple nationalities. But these things are not the main point. No one, as far as I can tell, is disputing the fact that Junqueras is Spanish (in certain senses). Are you disputing the fact that he is Catalan (in certain senses)? If you are not, then what kind of formulation in reference to his Catalan identity would you be willing to accept? That's the real question. I gave a bunch of suggestions; you can't seriously object to all of them. LacrimosaDiesIlla (talk) 16:23, 26 October 2017 (UTC)

I agree with you that he is both, Spanish and Catalan, same as someone from Texas is both American and Texan. As far as his nationality I could also agree with you. As I said on my first comment, it could be possible that he may have both nationalities. I'm not sure, he clearly feels that way at least from an emotional point of view. If there is a Reliable Source that could be added stating that fact clearly I see no problem in adding it to the article. I would recommend doing it on the body rather than on the lead as it would need to be explained. --Crystallizedcarbon (talk) 16:42, 26 October 2017 (UTC)

@Crystallizedcarbon In your most recent edit, you have denied that Catalan is an ethnic group. This is a bold statement. Please could you explain this further? DewyBukiaPeters (talk) 19:19, 26 October 2017 (UTC)

In particular, I am interested to hear a reply in light of the fact that Wikipedia defines "Catalans" as "a Romance ethnic group" in the lede sentence of its article on them. LacrimosaDiesIlla (talk) 19:23, 26 October 2017 (UTC)

That was my belief, I checked the article, neither one of the sources in Catalans that source the claim seem to be working. But according to es:Raza_catalana it does seems to be a claim made by separatists since the XIX century to justify their aspirations, so I stand corrected. Still, I do not think it's more relevant for the lead than saying he is from Catalonia as you did with this edit that has been restored. --Crystallizedcarbon (talk) 20:44, 26 October 2017 (UTC)

@Crystallizedcarbon I don't really have a strong opinion on the issue of Catalan independence but how did you come to have such beliefs? I understand that there is political debate regarding the status of Catalonia but I didn't realise that anyone doubted the existence of the Catalan ethnicity. You do realise that ethnic groups don't imply separate nations, right? For example, Mingrelians and Svan are both ethnic groups inside Georgia who also call themselves Georgian. I'm just trying to clarify whether you were confusing the meaning of ethnicity or whether you really thought that the Catalan are a fake ethnic group. If it is the latter, how would you account for them having a separate language, their own traditions etc.? I apologise if I sound condescending in any way- I do not mean to. Feel free to answer this on my talk page. --DewyBukiaPeters (talk) 21:43, 26 October 2017 (UTC)

Hello @DewyBukiaPeters: No problem, let me clarify: I think my confusion may have come from the fact that the use of ethnic group in my country and in my language is usually associated more with race. like gypsies etc. Catalans do have different traditions as do most regions in Spain and a different language than Spanish as also do three or four other regions, so from that point of view and according to that definition I would have to agree, but in that case it does not seem to be a very relevant fact. I myself am from Asturias, Spain, we have a very distinctive culture and traditions (many of them from Celts) and also a separate language/dialect I am proud of it, but I had never considered that to be my ethnic group, as I consider myself Spanish. But from your definition I guess I belong to the Spanish, Asturian and European ethnic groups, (when I was living in the US many of us Europeans bonded together to socialice/party due to our common cultural traits) I probably also belong to the White Caucasian ethnic group and perhaps to the Hispanic as well. But I diverge... Getting back to the article, I think that the more relevant and objective fact is that he is from Catalonia and so I still think that should be restored back in the lead. Regards. --Crystallizedcarbon (talk) 22:18, 26 October 2017 (UTC)

The ethnic group that was added yesterday has just been removed from the lead by an IP, so I have restored that he is from Catalonia, the previous stable version and an undisputed fact that is more relevant and common for the lead. Considerations about ethnic group, disaffection with the Spanish nationality, second nationality etc can and should be included in the body if properly sourced after that if we reach a consensus that it is relevant enough for the lead it could also be added, but without removing the current wording. --Crystallizedcarbon (talk) 06:24, 27 October 2017 (UTC)