Talk:No man's land (Latrun)

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Selfstudier (talk) 11:58, 26 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Standard wording for nml settlements

Shalit, Lapid, Kfar Ruth, Maccabim and Neve Shalom are all in or mostly in the nml.

At the moment, after some back and forth, we have the following wording at the Kfar Ruth lead:

Kfar Ruth (Hebrew: כְּפַר רוּת, lit. 'Ruth's Village') is an Israeli settlement organised as a moshav. It was established in 1977 in an area that had become a no-man's land between Israel and Jordanian-controlled West Bank at the end of the 1948 Arab–Israeli War, before becoming part of the Israeli-occupied territories in the 1967 Six-Day War.^[1] It falls under the jurisdiction of Hevel Modi'in Regional Council and had a population of 275 in 2022.^[2]

I am not entirely sure myself that this is adequate, what do others think? Selfstudier (talk) 12:04, 26 December 2022 (UTC) Selfstudier (talk) 12:04, 26 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

References

^ Eldar, Akiva (2007-10-23). "Border Control Sovereign Over No-man's Land". Haaretz.com. Retrieved 2022-12-19.
^ "Regional Statistics". Israel Central Bureau of Statistics. Retrieved 21 March 2024.

some problems

To editor Selfstudier:
"Three Palestinian villages, Bayt Nuba, Imwas and Yalo in the no man's land were destroyed." — They are not in the NML, look at the map.
"Some years later the site of the villages was turned into Canada Park, stretching from the NML over the boundary and into the West Bank." — Bayt Nuba is not in Canada Park. There is a third destroyed village in Canada Park, Deir Aiyub, but it was destroyed in 1948. A fourth village Latrun, also destroyed in 1948, is right on the armistice line.
Zero^talk 12:23, 27 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Falah's map? (Did you see my edit here?) Hmm, Falah says "The three Palestinian villages of Beit Nuba, Yalu and Imwas were located in the Latrun 'no-man's land' on the eve of the June 1967 war" and " In order to make this land transformation permanent, the Israeli army levelled the houses of the villages (539 houses in Yalu, 375 in Imwas and 550 in Beit Nuba (Izzeddin, 1996) and several years later the site of the villages was turned into a national park. This park, known as 'Canada Park', stretched from the 'no-man's land' over the boundary into the West Bank."

In the salient article it says "Three Palestinian villages of Bayt Nuba, Imwas/Emmaus and Yalo bordering on the no man's land were razed" sourced to Shai which I haven't really looked at, let me see what that says. Selfstudier (talk) 12:38, 27 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

OK, I got Shai, that doesn't mention NML and refers only to "Latrun enclave" and as to the villages it only says "The case of the villages around Latrun exemplifies this continuity. Rami Yisrael from Kibbutz Nahshon near Latrun wrote to Ze’ev Yavin: “After the occupation of the West Bank, the villages of the Latrun enclave—‘Imwas, Yalu and Beit Nuba—were demolished.... So that is not very specific as to location, I wonder where Nish got "bordering on the no man's land" from. I will try to see if other sources confirm or deny Falah's account. Selfstudier (talk) 13:08, 27 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Yalo article has "Subsequently, with donations from Canadian benefactors, the Jewish National Fund built a recreational space, Canada Park, which contains the former sites of Yalo and two other neighbouring villages, Dayr Ayyub and Imwas.^[1]^[2] Selfstudier (talk) 13:34, 27 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

POICA says "Twenty kilometers west of Jerusalem lies the No Man's land, which is a 50-km2 area that separated Israel from the West Bank before the 1967 war. On the borders of this area there used to be three Palestinian villages: Imwas, Beit Nuba, and Yalu. Selfstudier (talk) 13:48, 27 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I don't understand your point. Bayt Nuba, Imwas and Yalo are in the salient in the most narrow sense. They are not in the NML, nor are they precisely on the border of the NML. "Bordering on the NML" implies outside it, in this case it is 400-900m outside but that phrase is too vague. See my map of Canada Park for very precise locations. Falah is wrong. Not only by Israel's maps of the armistice lines but also by this original map (you can see them marked) higher resolution. Zero^talk 14:24, 27 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Right, so not in the NML and two of them in the park (with Beit Nuba becoming Mevo Horon not in the park). That right? Selfstudier (talk) 14:32, 27 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Right. Also see the map on page 127 of Biger. Zero^talk 14:51, 27 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry about the mix up, I was looking for a source that specifically said Canada park crossed the NML lines and found Falah (he does say that but since its unreliable I need another). Selfstudier (talk) 16:01, 27 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Save me digging around, this Haaretz article says Kibbutz Nahshon Lot 5 was in NML (not owned by the kibbutz but cultivated by it) and since 2002, Lot 5 is in Mini Israel park (some tourist site said it is 3km W of Canada Park). Is that right, far as you know? Selfstudier (talk) 17:20, 27 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I can see now that the Mini Israel thing is in the NLM area, so just the Lot 5 stuff, is that right? Selfstudier (talk) 20:00, 27 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Mini Israel is certainly in the NML. Also see this article. There are documents here. An aerial photo in this youtube video, at 4:00 shows the burial site right at the entrance to Mini Israel. So that must have been lot 5 at the time. Now it shows as lot 40, but lot numbers can change.

If you go to this map and look at 1474/1389 you will see a little road ending in a loop. Go back to the main road and cross the road. That's where Mini Israel is and where the burial is thought to be. Smack in the middle of the NML. Zero^talk 05:32, 28 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

https://www.antiquities.org.il/survey/new/default_en.aspx?pid=9009 has a google maps type player, idk how up to date it is, zooming in shows Mini Israel pretty well and there is a faint white dotted line marking the NML (bits of Latrun including half of a War Museum are shown inside the line too). Selfstudier (talk) 09:56, 28 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

It would be nice to have an additional source, but that's not only google-like, it is a feed through to google. The position of the armistice line differs from the Israeli maps by around 100m. It would be interesting to know how google decided where to draw it. Incidentally some of the roads around there have moved, so alignment of the maps needs care. Zero^talk 11:25, 28 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

There is another problem with this sentence "... the land between the lines defined as no man's land, controlled by neither party,[6] lying within Jordanian territory.[7]" - The Biger text used as a sources doesn't say this, it only refers to the monastery and fort buildings as lying in Jordanian territory, not the NML. "During the war, the Arab Legion of Jordan occupied the monastery and the fortress of Latrun and the Israeli army although and tried to occupy this important spot, could not occupy it. So the agreed armistice line left those buildings in the Jordanian territory. Red Slapper (talk) 13:00, 27 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, that would be in the area that I (but not everybody) would call the "salient". I removed the part at the end sourced to Biger (it also needs removing in the salient article at some point). Selfstudier (talk) 13:19, 27 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

References

^ Palestine Remembered
^ John Dirlik (October 1991). ""Canada Park" Built on Ruins of Palestinian Villages". Retrieved 2008-08-27. {{cite journal}}: Cite journal requires |journal= (help)

Viewed as illegal settlements

@Zero0000: It appears you are quoting something ("But both the United Nations and the European Union have a clear policy of viewing Israeli localities in no-man’s land as illegal settlements."), but looking at the two sources provided for that line I'm not seeing that quote or any like it. Can you reference where it came from? BilledMammal (talk) 04:27, 9 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

It comes from the third source Ahren that you deleted at the same time. In addition, you know perfectly well that when the EU or UN classify a place as an "Israeli settlement" they are calling it illegal whether or not the word "illegal" is used. Zero^talk 04:32, 9 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

You're right, I overlooked that there was a third source. BilledMammal (talk) 04:34, 9 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

[1] Eldar, Akiva (2007-10-23). "Border Control Sovereign Over No-man's Land". Haaretz.com. Retrieved 2022-12-19.

[Israelpopulations-2] "Regional Statistics". Israel Central Bureau of Statistics. Retrieved 21 March 2024.

[3] Palestine Remembered

[WRMEA-4] John Dirlik (October 1991). ""Canada Park" Built on Ruins of Palestinian Villages". Retrieved 2008-08-27. {{cite journal}}: Cite journal requires |journal= (help)

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