Talk:Nina Dobrev

Can we stop pretending that mentioning the fact that she's a Bulgarian Canadian is a big issue?

Don't know why this is such an issue. She's proud to be Bulgarian, which is not only her ethnicity but also her NATIONALITY she's DUAL NATIONAL, so why erase that part of her wiki article? it's not either or, and wiki is about sharing information. Quenreerer (talk) 10:19, 25 February 2020 (UTC)

Because WP:BLPLEAD is clear on the issue, and the consensus at the article is that there's no reason to deviate from it here. You also claim that it's her "nationality" but offer no proof that she still maintains Bulgarian citizenship. --IJBall (contribs • talk) 13:27, 25 February 2020 (UTC)

Bulgaria allows dual citizenships. As you can see here . She is a Bulgarian citizen by birth and has not renounced her citizenship. She even stated she resides for a time in the country every year. She's a dual national. Consensus was made on faulty information, therefore needs to be updated. Quenreerer (talk) 22:43, 25 February 2020 (UTC)

You're wrong, regardless, as this is not how this is handled as per WP:BLPLEAD, and you have failed to prove any of this as per WP:BURDEN, and the consensus is against you, but I'm not going to keep "re-litigating" this, so I'm going to leave it to other editors to pick this up. --IJBall (contribs • talk) 02:38, 26 February 2020 (UTC)

"You're wrong" - yeah... great burden of proof, dude. I just provided a link where you can find Bulgarian citizenship laws, where it states a Bulgarian national is someone of Bulgarian ethnicity, born in Bulgaria. She checks both those requirement. Another thing you can learn is that Bulgaria allows dual citizenship. Meaning She didn't have to give up her Bulgarian citizenship to become a Canadian citizen. Furthermore there is no proof that she ever renounced her citizenship. At this point the burden of proof is on you to prove she's NOT a Bulgarian citizen. Quenreerer (talk) 03:04, 26 February 2020 (UTC)

shes born in bulgaria ... her parents both have the passport... should i ask you to prove your USA passport Fastcar4924539 (talk) 18:58, 17 April 2024 (UTC)

References

It doesn't matter if she has citizenship or not with Bulgaria. MOS:ETHNICITY says to not put places of birth in lead if it's not Kay girl 97 (talk) 19:46, 28 February 2020 (UTC)

Exactly. And all her notable works were as a Canadian, so the Bulgarian is irrelevant. Which is the long-standing consensus at this article. Note to Kay girl 97 – We've had long-standing Disruptive editing, also possibly involving Socking, at this article on this very issue, so we may need Admin support on this eventually... --IJBall (contribs • talk) 19:56, 28 February 2020 (UTC)

Learn the difference between citizenship and ethnicity first. Nina Dobrev isn't only a Bulgarian by ethnicity, she's a citizen of Bulgaria.MOS:ETHNICITY doesn't cover citizenship, therefore can't be used as an excuse to erase her Bulgarian citizenship from lead. Quenreerer (talk) 01:42, 29 February 2020 (UTC)

dual nationalities are allowed. there os no rule that froces only one nationality to be written in only in the lead. example. [[1]]. Quenreerer (talk) 01:39, 29 February 2020 (UTC)

This is quite pointless, as it's clear you are taking up the same WP:POV-pushing as the previous editor, but we've explained this to you multiple times – Dobrev is NOT NOTABLE AS A BULGARIAN. She has done no notable works as such. All of her notable works are as a Canadian (or in the U.S.). This is all directly from WP:ETHNICITY, as per above. If you keep this, and continue to ignore the clear consensus that has been established on this Talk page over years, I will report you for edit-warring, and you are very likely to be blocked. --IJBall (contribs • talk) 03:21, 29 February 2020 (UTC)

Nina Dobrev [is a big deal in bulgaria and visits country each year.] again. you're wrong and again you're the one pushing NPOV. There's no source on the internet stating she isn't a big deal in her home country. Report yourself for incompetence while you're at it. Quenreerer (talk) 04:01, 29 February 2020 (UTC)

No one ever said she isn't a big deal in Bulgaria. That has literally nothing to do with anything. The Wikipedia guideline is clear, she achieved notability as a Canadian, not as a Bulgarian. SQGibbon (talk) 18:55, 14 April 2020 (UTC)

Not to mention, Dobrev's family moved to Canada to escape Communist Bulgaria and became citizens of Canada shortly after. They basically severed their Bulgarian nationalities for a while. And as mentioned above, even if she still has it or regained said nationality, she gained her notability in Canada first and was always presented as such.Kay girl 97 (talk) 03:48, 29 February 2020 (UTC)

that's you opinion. Dobrev never publicly rescinded her Bulgarian citizenship. And given Bulgarian citizenship law, as you can see in the link i posted above, the burden of proof is on proving Bodbrev not being a Bulgarian citizen, not that she is. As WP:ETHNICITY, it doesn't apply here, since that is referring to a persons ethnicity, example, we don't specify someone being a hispanic america or african america in the lead, we just write american. Same applies here, only there is an issue of dual citizenship, which apparently is not a problem on any other article, besides this as I gave the example off Sienna Miller being both British and American. Quenreerer (talk) 03:57, 29 February 2020 (UTC)

RFC: Nationality in the lede

How should Nina Dobrev's nationality be described in the article's lede paragraph?

1. Nina Kamenova Dobreva is a Bulgarian and Canadian actress.
2. Nina Kamenova Dobreva is a Canadian actress.
3. Nina Kamenova Dobreva is an actress.

This RFC aims to resolve a long-standing debate. Some argue that Dobrev's dual nationality should be mentioned in the lede while others insist that her Bulgarian nationality is not relevant to her acting career. Anthony Whitaker (talk) 14:36, 28 June 2024 (UTC)

Survey

• B. --Thedarkknightli (talk) 17:29, 28 June 2024 (UTC)
• A - She has duel citizenship and has lived in both places during her life. This is in line with MOS:NATIONALITY. Nemov (talk) 17:37, 28 June 2024 (UTC)

  That is completely not in line with MOS:NATIONALITY. Dual citizenship (not seeing sources she has it, but even if she did) is not how we determine how we describe a subject's nationality in the lead. You should go back and re-read the guideline. —Joeyconnick (talk) 19:43, 29 June 2024 (UTC)

  Very strange comment since the example at MOS:NATIONALITY is Schwarzenegger who became notable in the US and not his native country. It appears that you're mistaken and so is the logic you've used in your comment below. Nemov (talk) 03:22, 30 June 2024 (UTC)

  If we do revisit MOS:NATIONALITY as you've suggested, we'll see that the "context" of what made the person notable is tied to their nationality at the time they gained notability. I'm surprised to see a different reading so I'm curious, how do you interpret the second sentence specifically? As a side note, Dobrev's dual nationality is referenced in the article's personal life section. Anthony Whitaker (talk) 16:44, 30 June 2024 (UTC)

• B MOS:NATIONALITY says that "The opening paragraph should usually provide context for that which made the person notable." Her career does not span both nations, I do not think that using both nationalities is relevant. Writethisway (talk) 18:53, 28 June 2024 (UTC)
• A - She has duel citizenship and has lived in both places during her life. This is in line with MOS:NATIONALITY. per Nemov, her nationality may be irrelevant to her career, but so is the nationality of many people. These are basic biographical facts, like full name and DoB which are recorded simply because they are true, rather than because they are demonstrably 'relevant' to any individual. That her career is solely in Canada will rapidly become apparent.Pincrete (talk) 04:20, 29 June 2024 (UTC)
• A, per the arguments above. Anthony Whitaker (talk) 14:55, 29 June 2024 (UTC)
• B – MOS:NATIONALITY clearly states that we only mention nationalities in the lead that are relevant to the subject's notability. Dobrev's career began in Canada: she was raised and became notable in Canada. If we have good sources that she actually has Bulgarian citizenship, of course the fact she holds it can be mentioned later in the article, but at Wikipedia that is not how we determine how we describe people's nationality in the lead. —Joeyconnick (talk) 19:42, 29 June 2024 (UTC)
• B - She's not an actress in Bulgaria, regardless of whether she holds citizenship there. She's not notable for her Bulgarian citizenship either. As such, there's no need for it to go in the lead sentence, and is in fact misleading and confusing to do so. Fieari (talk) 04:18, 3 July 2024 (UTC)

To clarify, it would be a different argument to suggest it say "Bulgarian-Canadian" rather than "Bulgarian and Canadian". I'm not endorsing Bulgarian-Canadian, mind you (that would require WP:RS to use that phrase) instead I'm clarifying that the two ways of phrasing it mean completely different things. "Bulgarian and Canadian actress" is grammatically equivalent to saying "Bulgarian actress and Canadian actress". But she's objectively not an actress in Bulgaria, so she's not a Bulgarian actress. If we said "Bulgarian-Canadian actress" that means an actress in Canada who is from Bulgaria... this might be more accurate, but again, we would require reliable sources to use this phrasing, and I don't think said sources do. That leaves only option B, reflecting what the sources say, and being accurate. Fieari (talk) 05:37, 3 July 2024 (UTC)

"Bulgarian and Canadian actress" is a shortform way of saying "Bulgarian and Canadian citizen, who is an actress" (the person could make films entirely in France for all we know). "Obama is an American politician" means he is an American citizen, who is a politician. It couldn't mean that he operates as a politician in America, but is quietly a Kenyan citizen! A person's nationality and where they exercise their trade are two distinct things. Pincrete (talk) 05:27, 4 July 2024 (UTC)

Just wanted to clarify here: no, actually we would never say "Bulgarian-Canadian actress" in anyone's lead no matter what the reliable sources might say, because MOS:ETHNICITY explicitly says we use "and", not hyphenation, and the "and" is only if their career spans a subject's emigration. It also states that the hyphenated form delineates ethnicity ("Austrian-American"). The second example there, of Isaac Asimov, is why Dobrev is described as a Canadian actress, not a Bulgarian and Canadian actress, a Bulgarian-Canadian actress, or a Bulgarian-born Canadian actress. —Joeyconnick (talk) 05:48, 4 July 2024 (UTC)

I wouldn't strongly object to "a Bulgarian-born Canadian actress", it succinctly covers the basic facts, but implies she is no longer Bulgarian. Whether someone's 'given' citizenship is 'relevant' to their notability or not seems irrelevant, it's a fact about them like their born name/middle name/ DoB. We don't omit or alter those to more tidily record their notability. Unless 'given' citizenship is renounced, it remains a fact about them. A person may not be a person who acts in Bulgarian films, but they are still a dual citizen (Canadian and Bulgarian) who is an actress, which is the most obvious meaning of the phrase. Pincrete (talk) 08:04, 4 July 2024 (UTC)

She's not really a Canadian actress either by that logic, the vast majority of her work is out of Hollywood. Ortizesp (talk) 12:57, 16 July 2024 (UTC)

And Chaplin wasn't British! Pincrete (talk) 08:37, 18 July 2024 (UTC)

• B - As per MOS:ETHNICITY, she achieved notability as a Canadian. That she was born in Bulgaria is irrelevant to this discussion unless her notability was established in Bulgaria or in both Bulgaria and Canada. SQGibbon (talk) 07:59, 3 July 2024 (UTC)
• B per Fieari. With proper sourcing, mentioning the Bulgarian citizenship in the body would be sufficient—it may be helpful to put it in the infobox as well. KyleJoan^talk 01:49, 5 July 2024 (UTC)
• A, she's a dual citizen. And I'm fairly sure her upbringing and 2 years there as a preteen were important to her development. This isn't a case of MOS:ETHNICITY since she has both passports.--Ortizesp (talk) 12:55, 16 July 2024 (UTC)
• A - dual citizen and grew up between the two countries. Mentioning both nationalities would be consistent with the manual of style. Coconutyou3 (talk) 13:27, 21 July 2024 (UTC)
• B per MOS:NATIONALITY. She started her career in Canada and got famous there, so that's the nationality that should be mentioned. Bulgaria doesn't seem to have played a major role regarding her notability or career, so it doesn't belong into the lead sentence. Gawaon (talk) 17:08, 24 July 2024 (UTC)
• or D "Canadian actress of Bulgarian descent" - Altenmann >talk 16:37, 5 August 2024 (UTC)
• A, due to dual citizenship and having lived for multiple periods in both countries, but consider "is a Bulgarian-born Canadian actress" for clarity and to avoid further bikeshedding. Dual citizenship would not necessarily be the deciding factor, if it were a case of an additional country's citizenship applying automatically due to birthplace but the person having no other connection to that place after their infancy (e.g. the elder of my sisters technically has UK as well as American citizenship for this reason, but has spent her entire post-diapers life in the US and never even been back to the UK as a tourist; she's American not British-American). But this not such a case. Using "a Bulgarian-Canadian actress" could also work, with a bit less clarity (but it would be hyphenated as a compound adjective per MOS:HYPHEN, so "a Bulgarian Canadian acress" isn't fine, and is actually confusing, looking like a typo for either "a Bulgarian and Canadian actress" or "a Bulgarian-Canadian actress"). This case is pretty comparable to that of Alex Pagulayan, with dual Canadian and Philippine citizenship, and extended living in both countries. That article uses "Filipino-born Canadian" at present, and that kind of approach should also be viable here, since it's less ambiguous than using "Bulgarian-Canadian" for Dobrev, which is inclusive of Canadians with Bulgarian ancestry multiple generations ago but who were not born in Bulgaria. [In Pagulayan's case, there's a special reason that "Filipino" shouldn't be used that way, though; it's is not properly a citizenship and nation-state term except in informal shorthand, but is rather an ethno-linguistic one that only applies to part of the population of the Philippines, despite the entire country being named after that population; his should read "Philippines-born Canadian". There are other cases of complex or amibugous nomenclature like this, but the Dobrev article doesn't seem to have that sort of problem.].  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  23:32, 5 August 2024 (UTC)

• B per MOS:NATIONALITY, she seems to have attained notability while in Canada, focusing on her descent in the immediate lead enters MOS:ETHNICITY territory, though I think Bulgaria should be added after Sofia to make it clear that she was born in another country. I'm not entirely opposed to A either if the reference checks out about her being a dual citizen, but leaning towards B. --TylerBurden (talk) 19:20, 6 August 2024 (UTC)

Discussion

Wouldn't "Bulgarian Canadian actress" be more accurate? GoodDay (talk) 13:51, 21 July 2024 (UTC)

As some contributors noted above, nationalities are listed with "and", per the manual of style. Anthony Whitaker (talk) 11:44, 25 July 2024 (UTC)

• Are there any sources that specifically describe her as "Bulgarian and Canadian actress? Not just mention her nationalities? - Altenmann >talk 16:37, 5 August 2024 (UTC)

  Why would we care? If the sources say she's an actress and that she's Bulgarian and Canadian, there is no principle by which WP would be magically unable to put these in the same sentence for concision. Our duty as encyclopedists recycling statements from other published sources is to reword the claims in our own idiom, not plagiarize them.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  23:12, 5 August 2024 (UTC)

  • Yes we would care, because it is questionable whether she is a Bulgarian actress. She is a Canadian actress of Bulgarian descent, that's what we can only state without dubious synthesis. Of course if one source says she is canadian actress and another source says she is a bulgarian actress then we can magically able to combine into one sentence. That she is has bulgarian passport does not make her a bulgarian actress, and combining the two facts into "Bulgarian (nationality) and Canadian (acting in Canada) actress" is a disservice to common sense. Imagine Wikipedia say "Golda Meir was a Russian and Israeli politician" just because she lived full 8 years in Russian Empire. - Altenmann >talk 23:23, 5 August 2024 (UTC)

    Your entire "it's questionable that ..." line of extrapolation is simply personal opinion (WP:OR). Cite me a reliable independent source claiming "it is questionable whether Nina Dobrev is 'a Bulgarian actress'" or even "... that she is 'Bulgarian' and 'an actress'". There is no policy basis of any kind to conclude that if the Zoomer 5000 is, according to the sources, a car, that it has foldout-out wings that make it a flying vehicle, and that it can also go underwater as a submersible vehicle, that is it for our purposes a flying, submersible car. There is no world in which Wikepedia cannot describe it that way.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  23:36, 5 August 2024 (UTC)

    Yes this is "my entire" and I am entitled to it in talk pages and I dont need reliable source for it. But if someone wants to add "she is Bulgarian actress" into the article, then sure as hell I will demand a reference for that, even if she is a submersible Bulgarian angel with wings on her back. Because she is just as a Bulgarian actress as Golda Meir is a Russian politician. - Altenmann >talk 01:32, 6 August 2024 (UTC)

  There are a number of articles that call her "Bulgarian-Canadian" or even just "Bulgarian" in some cases [2][3][4][5][6][7][8][9][10]. It's no secret to the media that Dobrev is Bulgarian, as it is often the topic of discussion in the interviews she does. Her most notable role (arguably) is as a character who is Bulgarian, and even her latest film, The Bricklayer was shot in Bulgaria.

  Dobrev herself has said that she is a national of both Bulgaria and Canada and would be reluctant to become a US citizen because she would have to give up one of her two passports. Interestingly enough, she is currently at the Olympics supporting team USA [11], but also showed support for a Bulgarian gymnast on her social media [12].

  The example you give with Golda Meir is flawed, as Dobrev's case is more similar to Pedro Pascal and Sebastian Stan, both of whom are described as "Chilean and American" and "Romanian-American", respectively, even though Dobrev spent some of her formative years in Bulgaria when she moved back with her mother, while the former two didn't. Even Timothée Chalamet, who has never lived in France full-time and is essentially only a quarter French is described as "American and French". What makes Chalamet more French than Dobrev Bulgarian?

  Last point – even if none of the above were true, I agree with SMcCandlish, why would it matter? MOS:NATIONALITY says that what goes in the lede is the person's nationality at the time they became notable, and there is no reason for us to believe Dobrev wasn't a Bulgarian national when she began acting. Anthony Whitaker (talk) 06:13, 6 August 2024 (UTC)

  • The example with Golda Meir is not flawed: it is an example that demonstrates the issue is not that evident and we need WP:RS to make a decision. I am surprized how seasoned wikipedians you and McCandlish decided it is OK to ignore the most fundamental rule. Especially keeping in mind that you did not have difficulty to provide reasonable arguments and convince me. 16:06, 6 August 2024 (UTC)

@TylerBurden Dobrev's dual nationality is referenced further down in the article's personal life section, do you think it should be moved to the infobox to avoid confusion/speculation? Also MOS:NATIONALITY says the lede should include the nationalities that the subject held when they became notable, not just the nationality of the country where they first gained notability. If it was the latter, what would that mean for e.g. all Canadian actors who began their careers in Hollywood? Anthony Whitaker (talk) 08:04, 11 August 2024 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 28 July 2024

Her first is actually Nikolina, not just Nina. Lverbaere (talk) 19:05, 28 July 2024 (UTC)

 Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. M.Bitton (talk) 19:47, 28 July 2024 (UTC)

• Done, with 3 refs for sure. - Altenmann >talk 16:56, 5 August 2024 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 31 October 2024

Nina Dobrev is currently engaged to Shaun White. 46.205.200.2 (talk) 13:45, 31 October 2024 (UTC)

 Already done The "Personal life" section already mentions this. Feel free to re-open with more details if you think there should be other changes. Skynxnex (talk) 15:22, 31 October 2024 (UTC)