Talk:Moors/Archive 9

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Moors depicted as white

For correct images of Moors playing chess look in book: The Golden Age of the Moors, Ivan van Sertima PG29

I think especially Americans from the Deep South can't handle the fact that Black people: were Europeans for 40,000 years; ruled and civilized major parts of Europe, i.e. Spain, Corsica, etc.; that they made it to the Americas before Columbus, and in many cases are the rightful owners of the land that they want to consider theirs. It is absurd to portray the Moors as white, when Moor or Moorish is a byword for Black. Where there 'white' Moors - not really. The Moors were mainly Berbers, and the Berbers were all Black (like the Senegalese) until they started mixing with their European slaves. 83.84.100.133 (talk) 10:59, 1 May 2020 (UTC)

You afrocentrists have to stop stealing north african history. North Africa never had been black. I'll just translate a reply from a french user about this :

"In their efforts to portray the ancient Maghreb as black, the Afrocentrists rely heavily on their misunderstanding of Greek and Roman literature, errors which are attributable to the ignorance of the historical use of terms relating to color .

In several cultures according to age, descriptions relating to the human complexion of the "white", "brown" and "black" type would correspond today to "pale", "tanned" and "brown".

This relative appreciation has been noted in many other cultures. Indeed, the Japanese for example used the terms "shiroi" (white) and "kuroi" (black) to describe their skin and its gradations in color.

The Igbos of Nigeria used the terms "ocha" (white) and "ojii" (black) in the same way, quite simply to mean that by "nwoko ocha" (white man), one meant an Igbo with a lighter complexion.

Similarly, the Greek words "melas" and "leukos" when applied to skin color were generally equivalent to "swarthy" and "pale" rather than the racial terms "black" or " white "as the Afro-centrists suggest, so the Greeks never called the Moors black.

There are many examples of this usage in Greek literature, an unequivocal example is described in Homer's Odyssey where Ulysses finds his youth.

"Minerva, by touching Ulysses with her golden wand, immediately covers him with a rich tunic, a superb cloak, and she gives back to her body all the vigor and all the youth which animated and embellished it formerly Suddenly the hero's features take on a brownish hue, his cheeks tighten, and a bluish beard shades his chin "

In the original version which you can find here: http://remacle.org/bloodwolf/poetes/homere/odyssee/livre16gr.htm

The brown complexion is translated from "μελαγχροιὴς γένετο" where μελαγχροιὴς is pronounced "melanchroiês"

And it is exactly the same word that the Greeks sometimes used to describe the Moors, and even the Egyptians and it is this same word which is at the source of the misunderstanding of the Afrocentrists.

This word, when taken literally means "black skin", however it is clear that when we put it in context, for example in the case of the Odyssey, we easily understand that it is a complexion tanned rather than any racial allusion. Tan complexion like that of the majority of North Africans today (and clear for others) and not black.

And in the same way, when the ancient writings describe the Moors with the term "melas" or "melanchroes", they certainly meant a swarthy complexion (which is still the case today)

We have the same case with the Egyptians.

Perhaps one of the passages most often taken up by Afrocentrists is that of the work, the Histories of Herodotus describing the Egyptians as well as the Colchids (inhabitants of the Caucasus, area which corresponds to current Georgia) as individuals with black skin and frizzy hair.

Common sense would like us to wonder about this passage since it is obvious that there was no black-skinned individual in Georgia but the Afrocentrists refuse to question themselves preferring to endorse anything that could go in their direction.

That the Maghrebis were slightly more mast than the Greeks is obvious, since it is still the case today, the description of the hair is on the other hand more problematic since on the one hand it is in contradiction with reality, knowing that 'there is no frizzy hair among the inhabitants of the Caucasus and on the other hand in the case of the Egyptians, the description made by Herodotus contradicts the mummies found.

The most likely explanation is undoubtedly to think that the description was relative and that Herodotus had wanted to mean that the Egyptian hair was much more wavy than that of the Greeks, which is still the case today

And it is all the more probable that Herodotus himself specified that the Ethiopians, in the south of Libya (Libya at the time corresponded to all of North Africa) and not the Egyptians had their hair more frizzy among men, so if the Egyptians had the Negroid characteristics that we know namely black skin and frizzy hair, why Herodotus does not assimilate them to the Ethiopians?

We can see that Herodotus uses the term frizzy to designate individuals with wavy hair like individuals with frizzy hair, he used the superlative to make the distinction but he used the same term, the language was probably not rich enough to the time to make the distinction.

An analogous example based on stereotypes and relative appreciation is that made by Ibn Butlan on Greek women since he described them as being blonde women with straight hair and blue eyes.

Now it is obvious today that the Greeks are Mediterranean and that the Nordic type is strongly in the minority, this is still visible today but why this generalization then?

Well the explanation is very simple, the Greeks as the Arabs noted the characteristics which were unusual for them in their own population and used these features to catalog the foreigners.

Another example in the Song of Aspremont (famous song of gesture of the Middle Ages), the author (anonymous) described the Turks "blacker than ink"

So if we follow this logic the Greeks would have a physique similar to that of the Vikings and the Turks a physique (skin color) similar to that of the Dravidians or Sub-Saharan Africans, it is obviously ridiculous.

Other descriptions:

"The black complexion of the Ethiopians forms in the universe a real variegation; they represent fairly well peoples who would always be enveloped in darkness. The Indians are less burnt; a less warm air only colors them halfway. Egypt, closer to our climate, and refreshed by the overflows of the Nile, gives its inhabitants an even less dark color. " - Manilius, Astronomical 4.724

Here Manilius clearly makes the distinction, which is in agreement with the representations that the Egyptians made of themselves and foreigners, it is more than clear that Manilius made this same distinction between the Nubians and the Egyptians

Other authors compared the Indians of the North with the Egyptians and those of the South (Dravidians) with the Ethiopians, it is the case of Arrien and Strabo

Arrien in Indica (6.9) said:

"The appearance of the people of India and Ethiopia is not that different: the South Indians look like the Ethiopians, they have black skin and black hair, they only differ in the fact that the Indians, they do not have a flat nose and frizzy hair like the Ethiopians; The North Indians look physically like the Egyptians "

As for Strabo, he confirms in Geography, Book XV, Chapter I, passage 13

"As for our species, it is represented by two types: the type of men from the South who resemble the Ethiopians by the color of their skin and the rest of humans by their physiognomy and the nature of their hair (the temperature of the India being too wet for the hair to become frizzy there, as they are in Ethiopia), and the type of the men of the North which recalls rather the Egyptian type. "

Thus Arrien and Strabo agree that the Maghrebians resembled the North Indians who have straight hair and who sometimes have the skin as clear as the Europeans of the South rather than the Dravidians of the South of India.

Another remark is that in the case of the analogy between the Egyptians and the Indians of the North, Strabo and Arrien do not seem to qualify by underlining the possible differences as they do for the Ethiopians and the Dravidians , which suggests that North Africans had (and still have) Caucasoid characteristics."Suksu7 (talk) 16:22, 10 May 2020 (UTC)

According to David Reich, the Eurasian component of today's North African population is major and recent: "Today, the peoples of North Africa owe most of their ancestry to West Eurasian migrants, making the deep genetic past in that region difficult to discern." Source: Who We are and how We Got Here: Ancient DNA and the New Science of the Human Past By David Reich. 83.84.100.133 (talk) 23:02, 12 May 2020 (UTC)

The Eurasian component is at least 30,000 years old : https://science.sciencemag.org/content/360/6388/548 Suksu7 (talk) 10:09, 19 May 2020 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 1 June 2020

The Moors were Africa voyagers who travelled the world educating other races on math, health, hygiene, fighting techniques, music, agriculture, fashion architecture and helping them restore order to their land. 2605:6000:101E:99DB:84A1:D399:C977:467A (talk) 04:35, 1 June 2020 (UTC)

 Not done. It's not clear what changes you want to make. –Deacon Vorbis (carbon • videos) 04:59, 1 June 2020 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 13 June 2020

The following can be added the popular culture section:

In the seventh episode of the forth season of the popular 90's sitcom Seinfeld, the Moors are referenced in a game of trivial pursuit. George has an argument with a boy in a quarantine bubble because the answer to one of the questions is "The Moors", but there is a typo on the game card which stats the answer is actually "The Moops". Matthewberends (talk) 00:56, 13 June 2020 (UTC)

 Not done per WP:IPC –Deacon Vorbis (carbon • videos) 04:08, 13 June 2020 (UTC)

Untitled

The above answer is extremely misleading. There were in fact Moors of different “colors”, including “white”. The Berbers of North Africa and other, earlier African groups were also derived from various populations. To suggest the Berbers are “black” is as incorrect as stating “Puerto Ricans” are “black”. Certainly some are darker than others, and some are lighter than others, just as you’d expect from a group of mixed descent. Or in the case of the Berbers, mixed Eurasian and North African descent. Modern North Africans are about 13% more sub-Saharan African today than they were. Going all the way back to antiquity, there was a “white” population jumping between Iberia and North Africa, as connected to the indigenous Canary Is,anders and very European Libyans depicted by various Egyptian dynasties.

What it originally meant to be a “Moor” was an invader from “Mauritania” into Iberia. Invaders that came in various skin tones including both “white” and “brown”. Perhaps in part derived from a North African population that had been heavily effected over the years by Phoenicians, Carthaginians, Goths, Greeks and Romans all conquering and intermixing in parts of North Africa at least 1500 years before the term “Moor” was coined. Certainly, later on, the word Moor was used more exclusively with brown skinned Muslims, because the population that made up North African Muslims had changed over time to include more Sub-Saharan admixture.

I really don’t care what “color” they were, my only interest is academic and historic honesty in terms of population migration, settlement and genetic descent. Either way, the North African populations that were referred to as Moors have no connection to modern African Americans or other sub-Saharan groups pushing an illegitimate Afrocentric narrative on vast, totally unrelated historical populations, trying to connect them to unrelated modern populations based only on a theorized similarity in skin tone. It would be no more accurate to call these original Moors “black” in its modern context, meaning Sub-Saharan in origin, than it would be calling them “modern Europeans” or connecting them to modern European groups just because some had a similar “skin tone”.

Beware both Afrocentric and Eurocentric narratives, being forced upon historical populations that have little to nothing to do with modern concepts of “race” or even “ethnicity”. This would be like a modern Vietnamese person claiming all the glory of the Mongols for the modern Vietnamese population just because they both might share some similar aesthetic features. — Preceding unsigned comment added by JarbeeChesschi (talk • contribs) 09:55, 25 July 2020 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 9 December 2020

2A02:1811:3480:5500:C07:1071:E435:DB71 (talk) 00:31, 9 December 2020 (UTC)
in the etymology section under the first paragraph : However, some believe that the term may have a local origin, with "Mahurim" meaning "Westerners" in Punic for the people living west of Carthage. Mahurim could have given rise to the Latin Mauri. Al-Maghrib the arab name of the region still mean The West 

According to Salluste, the Moors are part of the army of Hercules from the Iberian peninsula , composed of Persians, Armenians and Medes. They mingle with the indigenous --Gaetuli (zeneta) --- populations of Maghreb. They settled in the mountains in Morocco, in the Aurès in Algeria and in Libya. The majority of the Aurès population is composed of Gaetuli (Zeneta).

ive got all the sources

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. Melmann 15:23, 9 December 2020 (UTC)

Need to add information about the etymology

I need to add an explanation about the etymology of Moor made by Gabriel Camps, the french expert of the berbers. Here what I wrote :

According to Gabriel Camps, and referring to Pliny (V, 17), "among the tribes of Mauretania Tingitana, the main one was formerly that of the Mauri, whom wars would have reduced to a few families." Moors, derived from Mauri, would therefore have a local origin, that is, the name of a tribe. He adds: "The Spaniards of the Reconquista, and subsequently the Europeans, retained this name by giving it an even wider acceptance since it was used to refer to the Maghrebis or North Africans. [...] But the memories of classical antiquity, to which was added the connotation "dark" given by the Greek adjective "μανρος" (mauros), revived, in colonial times, the name of the Mauri and Mauritania (instead of Mauretania) to designate the nomadic populations, largely Arabized, and the country south of Morocco, the former Mauretania Tingitana".

Book ISBN : 978-2-7427-6922-3 — Preceding unsigned comment added by Suksu7 (talk • contribs) 19:21, 15 December 2020 (UTC)

Re: Omissions

The page on the Moors is very misleading in that it is trying to whitewash the true history of the Moors. I visited Morrocco and none of the artwork depicted fair-skinned moors only dark-skinned because that is how they looked. I would like to add the correct images to the page but it is locked from edits. This is how history is changed with lies. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Guineverejackson (talk • contribs) 11:02, 11 July 2020 (UTC)

The only misleading person here is yourself. I myself am Moroccan, and I find it very hard to believe you considering Moroccans are Muslims and none of their traditional artwork depicts human beings. Since you visited Morocco, you should've noticed that Moroccans are a variety of skin colors, the majority of them tanned and fair-skinned, and very few can be called "black."

Hyacinte de Icarus (talk) 22:59, 23 August 2020 (UTC)

Guineverejackson, if you are referring to the Muslims of Spain, then you are wrong. Most of them were native Spanish converts to Islam therefore most of the so-called “Moors” of Spain and Portugal were indeed white. Keep in mind that the term “Moor” was never used by Andalusian Muslims but rather by the northern Christians. TheNewLetters (talk) 17:39, 21 December 2020 (UTC)

TheNewLetters, if you want to put this forward you need reliable sources. Doug Weller talk 19:35, 21 December 2020 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 14 January 2021

I noticed a mistake in Section 6. In Heraldry. The Aragon flag is wrong as it should look like this: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/b/b2/Escudo_de_Arag%C3%B3n.svg/800px-Escudo_de_Arag%C3%B3n.svg.png

So I am proposing we change the flag to the one provided above. Bjmadsopk0806 (talk) 17:36, 14 January 2021 (UTC)

 Not done. They're practically the same, based on the creator's interpretation of the coat of arms description. Don't see a clear rationale to change. ◢  Ganbaruby!  (Say hi!) 00:46, 19 January 2021 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 15 January 2021

The Flag in Section 6.1 is wrong. We need to change it to this file: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aragon#/media/File:Escudo_de_Arag%C3%B3n.svg Bjmadsopk0806 (talk) 11:29, 15 January 2021 (UTC)

See above. ◢  Ganbaruby!  (Say hi!) 00:46, 19 January 2021 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 28 January 2021

Under "Notable Persons," the first entry, Tariq ibn Ziyad, lacks a hyperlink to his own page, which is particularly jarring because pretty much every other person and proper noun in this section possess one. Thanks! Hthundercroft (talk) 03:35, 28 January 2021 (UTC)

 Done. ◢  Ganbaruby!  (Say hi!) 06:23, 28 January 2021 (UTC)

Population

This paragraph should be deleted, as it is completely wrong, and the Arabs were not Syrians and Yemenis, but rather there were what are known as the Qaysiya tribes and the Qahtani tribes, and they are not Yemenis and Syrians !! As for most of them were Berbers, Mali and Morocco, this is also Not true. This paragraph needs to be deleted, just as Abd al-Rahman inside is not a berber, but rather an Arab only, as well as the placement of wars and the use of Moors name to make it a civilization or culture and architecture, this is also wrong. The article must be made clearer, as this name is what was used by Muslims, regardless of their ethnicity, before the word "Muslim" entered the English language Sarazxs123 (talk) 04:16, 22 March 2021 (UTC)

It is pretty well established that the majority of Muslims in Andalusia were of Berber or Iberian origin, simply due to the geographical proximity. There was just not enough Arabs to populate Iberia or North Africa, areas that are manyfold way larger than Arabia, nor was there any incentive for Arabs to migrate in large numbers to those regions. The strong influence of Arabs and Arabic is mainly due to the high social status of its representatives in politics and administration. As for Abd al-Rahman, according to Arabic sources, he was Arab on his father's side and Berber on his mother's side. Concerning the etymology and meaning of "Moor", check the section "Moor from Mauri" that I just added. Have a good day! --Ideophagous (talk) 10:31, 03 April 2021 (UTC+2)

Othello

We say:

In popular culture --- The title character in William Shakespeare's play Othello, and the derived title character in Verdi's opera Otello, is a Moor. The character has been played by various actors in different forms of entertainment.

I have not traced the development of the last sentence, but I imagine it could be a watered down version of a statement about Othello being played blackface. As it stands, it is a pointless statement - it could be said about any character in any often performed play. Should we simply remove it - or should we venture into a statement of the troublesome facts (requiring someone to find suitable sources)?--Nø (talk) 09:58, 4 July 2021 (UTC)

@Nø: It is indeed a pointless statement that won't be missed if removed. M.Bitton (talk) 15:04, 4 July 2021 (UTC)

Moors Meaning Black

SMITHSONIAN MAGAZINE Not All the Knights of the Round Table Were White - The storytellers assumed we’d be sharp enough to pick up on their hints that Sir Morien was black. Turns out, we’re not: "He was all black, even as I tell ye: his head, his body, and his hands were all black, saving only his teeth. His shield and his armour were even those of a Moor, and black as a raven…"

"Had they not heard him call upon God no man had dared face him, deeming that he was the devil or one of his fellows out of hell, for that his steed was so great, and he was taller even than Sir Lancelot, and black withal, as I said afore…"

"When the Moor heard these words he laughed with heart and mouth (his teeth were white as chalk, otherwise was he altogether black)…" 2001:1C00:1E31:5F00:EC1C:118F:D2FA:95F8 (talk) 03:32, 20 July 2021 (UTC)

November 2021

@Flesek: With regard to this revert:

• MOS:INTRO says: the lead section should briefly summarize the most important points covered in an article. Is what you're adding to the article an important point covered in the article?
• Template:About says: {{About}} is a commonly used hatnote template on Wikipedia. The purpose of a hatnote is to help readers locate a different article if the one they are at is not the one they're looking for. The article already has such hatnote template to the Moor which covers what you're adding and more. M.Bitton (talk) 19:01, 20 November 2021 (UTC)

@M.Bitton: With regard to this revert:

• MOS:INTRO says: "the lead section should briefly summarize the most important points covered in an article. Is what you're adding to the article an important point covered in the article?" Answer: South-Eastern Asian populations who were called "Moors" have as less to do with the North-African Moors as Afro-American populations. If they can get a part in the lead of why they are called by this term, the same should be applied to Afro-Americans, (which is in my opinion even more relevant since most of the traffick on this page comes from Black-American movements with a heavy online pressence). — Preceding unsigned comment added by Flesek (talk • contribs) 19:12, 20 November 2021 (UTC)

• @Flesek: you are confusing two different topics. This article is about usage of the term Moor towards certain historic Muslim peoples around the Mediterranean. There are other meanings of the term Moor that are covered at Moor, including the Moorish Science Temple of America. VR _talk 22:19, 20 November 2021 (UTC)

• In fairness, in Moors#Modern meanings this article describes the term's application to peoples of the Philippines, Sri Lanka, Goa and South Asia more generally (our heading "modern" here meaning post-medieval). The third paragraph of the lead currently provides a useful summary. In that light, Flesek's last version, adding to that section and that third paragraph of the lead, was arguably appropriate in principle. I haven't checked the citations, which of course shouldn't be bare URLs, but I think we often accept SPLC as an RS and of course many more sources are cited in Moorish Science Temple of America. NebY (talk) 22:42, 20 November 2021 (UTC)

• This article should be about the term "Moors" (Moros, etc.) and how it has been used. I should not be about any actual group(s) of people, for which there are better names. Srnec (talk) 21:08, 20 November 2021 (UTC)

"In 711, troops mostly formed by Moors from northern Africa led the Umayyad conquest" ...

We say, e.g.,

In 711, troops mostly formed by Moors from northern Africa led the Umayyad conquest ...

Considering the inaccuracy of the term Moor, I think we should refrain from using the term this way. We can quote examples of sources that do, but in a sentence in Wikipedia that intends to say that certain people did certain things, we should identify those people as accurately as possible, and not as "Moors" (but possibly as "people identified by contemporary European sources as Moors", or the like).--Nø (talk) 17:19, 6 December 2021 (UTC)

What is the source for this? Because it's misleading.

Tariq bin Ziyad's army consisted of 12,000 berbers and 300 Arabs, in 711.

Musa bin Nusayr's army consisted of 32,000 Arabs, in 712. This was the actual main force.

Balj ibn Bishr al-Qushayri's army consisted of 20,000-30,000 Arabs, in 741. After the Berber revolt they were excluded and in 742 destroyed.

Can someone please direct me to what the lede was referencing in the article? Because I couldn't find it.Julia Domna Ba'al (talk) 00:00, 7 December 2021 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 16 December 2021

The Europeans did not give that name & this article is spreading that misconception. Our name did not come from nor was it given to us by Europeans. 63.143.116.123 (talk) 15:27, 16 December 2021 (UTC)

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 15:36, 16 December 2021 (UTC)

This should be an article about a word, not about a people

COnsidering the dubiousness of this word as a deignation of a specific group of people, I don't think this article should contain statements like

In 711, troops mostly formed by Moors from northern Africa...

We can quote sources saying thing like that; we can say "according to so-and-so mostly formed by moors", etc. but writing as if it is a well-defined group makes no sense.

My example of improper use from the article is just one of many.--Nø (talk) 11:13, 17 April 2022 (UTC)

I agree that this should be an article about a word (or a family of related words: Mauri, moros, Moors, etc.). Srnec (talk) 20:39, 17 April 2022 (UTC)

I also agree. Carlstak (talk) 00:07, 18 April 2022 (UTC)

Serious errors in the Article

The assumption that the sicilians were mere slaves in italy is wrong,plus some sources are Wrong and are Talking about the Slavery of sub-saharan Africans not the moors from Sicily and tunisia Osmar.aka (talk) 10:17, 12 June 2022 (UTC)

Not only that. The article says "...the Bengali Muslims were also called Moors."

Where is this from? This implies they spoke Bengali or what?

This also doesn't come from the source it claims (the SL Moors during colonial times). The Moors were in Calcutta before the British. --George Hadley. A short grammar of the Moors language. London, 1779. Ngelo95 (talk) 05:41, 8 September 2022 (UTC)

End the old agenda

The term stems from more than one word, and for at least two of those: Firstly, the Berbers are from the Northern African region. They were there, long before some of them were moved (spiritually & culturally) by Islam. They represent an advanced, educated, and highly skilled culture that has had both strong and fragmented alliances and/or reunions with various notable (and acclaimed) empires. Instead of the precarious North African description, the Berbers are simply from the Highlands or Lowlands. These people spanned from East to West throughout the Northern region, and as such Berbers had conflicting alliances (or simply, autonomously chose their own opportunities). By Spain's account, Moors were Tariq-led Berbers who had become Muslims (the purveyors of Count Julian's payback). One has to deliberately, creatively, and deceptively misconstrue the complexion of who the people of Spain were identifying as Moors. Secondly, the Berbers are descendants of the people of Canaan. It's ridiculous when artifacts depict one thing, yet it is either conveniently passed-over, subtly not shared/promoted, and/or generously altered. The "Vanquished Libyan" is an Egyptian statuette of a Berber. Considering the prominence of both the pre-Islamic and Islamic Berber people in the descriptive term - Moors; the selection of images either ignores the empowering and noble depictions (that I have seen) by accident or purposely contributes to an agenda.

ASIDE: Does Religion & History suffer if the physical features and complexion inconsistencies are somewhat resolved? 155.135.55.231 (talk) 02:14, 26 July 2022 (UTC)

It's true. This article reads like a bad piece of propoganda. Ngelo95 (talk) 05:42, 8 September 2022 (UTC)

Learn some history, dude. Also this is not a forum.

Who was moors

Who was moors 58.181.103.85 (talk) 11:14, 17 May 2023 (UTC)

I was moors bro 82.19.231.27 (talk) 17:23, 24 July 2023 (UTC)

In popular culture

I have (for now) deleted this item:

• The 2009 documentary film Journey to Mecca follows the travels of the Moorish explorer Ibn Battuta from his native country of Morocco to Mecca for the Hajj in 1325.

I'm not sure how to rewrite it in an appropriate way. We should not propagate the identification of anyone as "a moor". Nø (talk) 12:38, 31 August 2023 (UTC)

What about the Boy in the Bubble episode of Seinfeld, where George refers to the Moors as the "Moops" after reading a typo on a Trivial Pursuit playing card?

Shouldn't that deserve a mention in this section? 104.246.120.160 (talk) 11:11, 1 September 2023 (UTC)

No. That's a good example of trivia that tells us nothing about the subject of the article. Carlstak (talk) 14:22, 1 September 2023 (UTC)

September 2023

@Eric Kvaalen::

I only changed "Mauro" to "Mauros" the cited source uses Mauro. Why did you change it to Mauros?

1) you added "perhaps" to a sourced statement. Is "perhaps" in the source or is that your WP:OR? 2) you added "Mauharim" to a sourced statement. Is "Mauharim" in the source or is that your WP:OR? 3) you added "μαυρός" to a sourced statement. Is "μαυρός" in the source or is that your WP:OR? 4) why did you remove the sourced statement ""Moor" is presumably of Phoenician origin"? 5) which part of what you added is supported by the new source? M.Bitton (talk) 21:17, 8 September 2023 (UTC)

@M.Bitton: Why don't you read the references? The AHD does not trace the word to Phoenician, so I added the word "perhaps". (Besides, the source for that doesn't seem very reliable -- he doesn't even know that "Mauro" is not Ancient Greek!) The "Mauharim" comes from the reference that was already there, the book by George Leighton. "Μαυρός" is simply the word given in the AHD, but in the Greek alphabet! Point 4 I have already answered -- the AHD doesn't agree with the Phoenician origin. I request my edit be reinstated. I don't see why you keep reverting without even checking the references! Why did Skitash send me an "edit war" warning and not to you? Please Ping me when you answer. Eric Kvaalen (talk) 07:19, 9 September 2023 (UTC)

Why don't you read the sources? The AHD is not authoritative on any of the million subjects that it mentions. It doesn't trace anything, it just gives its own simple definition. "Μαυρός" (jargon to most readers) is not mentioned in it. If you believe that the author of EWM doesn't even know that "Mauro" is not Ancient Greek, then you need to cite the sources that support your assertion. The "Mauharim" comes from the old source that is meant to support the FRINGE Hebrew origin. If you want to use that source for other things, then mention everything that it does (without cherry picking) and attribute them to it.

Why did you remove the sourced statement ""Moor" is presumably of Phoenician origin"?

Why are you asking me to explain another editor's action? If I have to guess, I'd say it's because you're edit warring against two editors. M.Bitton (talk) 10:57, 9 September 2023 (UTC)

@M.Bitton: Oh forget it. There's no point in arguing with you. By the way, you didn't Ping me as I requested. Eric Kvaalen (talk) 11:33, 10 September 2023 (UTC)

September 2023

@Eric Kvaalen::

I only changed "Mauro" to "Mauros" the cited source uses Mauro. Why did you change it to Mauros?

1) you added "perhaps" to a sourced statement. Is "perhaps" in the source or is that your WP:OR? 2) you added "Mauharim" to a sourced statement. Is "Mauharim" in the source or is that your WP:OR? 3) you added "μαυρός" to a sourced statement. Is "μαυρός" in the source or is that your WP:OR? 4) why did you remove the sourced statement ""Moor" is presumably of Phoenician origin"? 5) which part of what you added is supported by the new source? M.Bitton (talk) 21:17, 8 September 2023 (UTC)

@M.Bitton: Why don't you read the references? The AHD does not trace the word to Phoenician, so I added the word "perhaps". (Besides, the source for that doesn't seem very reliable -- he doesn't even know that "Mauro" is not Ancient Greek!) The "Mauharim" comes from the reference that was already there, the book by George Leighton. "Μαυρός" is simply the word given in the AHD, but in the Greek alphabet! Point 4 I have already answered -- the AHD doesn't agree with the Phoenician origin. I request my edit be reinstated. I don't see why you keep reverting without even checking the references! Why did Skitash send me an "edit war" warning and not to you? Please Ping me when you answer. Eric Kvaalen (talk) 07:19, 9 September 2023 (UTC)

Why don't you read the sources? The AHD is not authoritative on any of the million subjects that it mentions. It doesn't trace anything, it just gives its own simple definition. "Μαυρός" (jargon to most readers) is not mentioned in it. If you believe that the author of EWM doesn't even know that "Mauro" is not Ancient Greek, then you need to cite the sources that support your assertion. The "Mauharim" comes from the old source that is meant to support the FRINGE Hebrew origin. If you want to use that source for other things, then mention everything that it does (without cherry picking) and attribute them to it.

Why did you remove the sourced statement ""Moor" is presumably of Phoenician origin"?

Why are you asking me to explain another editor's action? If I have to guess, I'd say it's because you're edit warring against two editors. M.Bitton (talk) 10:57, 9 September 2023 (UTC)

@M.Bitton: Oh forget it. There's no point in arguing with you. By the way, you didn't Ping me as I requested. Eric Kvaalen (talk) 11:33, 10 September 2023 (UTC)

Any reason dark skinned moors are not mentioned or depicted?

Considering the prevalence of dark-skinned Moors in European art and the historical use of the term to describe individuals with dark complexions, why are there no depictions of dark-skinned Moors? It seems like a significant omission in their history, don't you agree? Araptesot (talk) 18:58, 8 June 2023 (UTC)

Because it's an afrocentrist POV that we are duty-bound to disregard as pseudo-historical woo? SinoDevonian (talk) 11:36, 26 June 2023 (UTC)

Eurocentric is just as bad and racist because it’s harmful to the knowledge of African history and the straight up denial over pretty much black history in general. I still remember people saying Masa Mufa was white or kingdoms in sub Sahara Africa were ruled by whites or Muslims. I don’t like Afrocentric but Eurocentric is cancer 2601:8C:B80:6660:DA9:9CD8:D4A7:B44B (talk) 03:13, 31 August 2023 (UTC)

I'm sorry but his dosn'nt make any sensenl.

I'm sorry but his dosn'nt make any sense.

"Afrocentrisim" is a concept that didn't exist until the late 19th century.

I get that you don't like the historical record and don't want to show what you don't agree with, but it is incoherent (at best) to say that anything you don't like is '

"Afrocentrisim" when most of what you don't like comes from non-Africans across a b

"Afrocentrisim" when most of what you don't like comes from non-Africans across a non-African cobtineb

"Afrocentrisim" when most of the historical record in question that you don't like comes from non-Africans centuries before the concept of 'Afrocebtrism' even existed. 98.231.70.155 (talk) 22:14, 10 September 2023 (UTC)

I think any discussion here should be based on the fact that there is no such thing as a moor - at least not one well-defined group that is properly designated that way. Hence, this is an article about a word, and who it has been applied to, and how, and by whom. Eurocentrism is a significant part of the word, and of course should be exposed. Nø (talk) 08:29, 31 August 2023 (UTC)

Nø is correct. Carlstak (talk) 11:44, 31 August 2023 (UTC)

THAT being said, I think it is true that the term "moor", in addition to (or besides?) identifying someone as muslim, also may identify them as black; e.g., Shakespeare's Othello (mentioned in the popular culture section) is genreally seens as black, and traditionally was played by a white actor in blackface. Also, a google image search on "moor" will (when it comes to pictures of people) mostly bring up paintings of black people. I do not have knowledge, sources or time to include this properly in the article, but it is odd that such depictiions are currently absent. Nø (talk) 12:46, 31 August 2023 (UTC)

The depictions are absent because they are old European nonsense. The moors (predominantly Berbers and Arabs) were neither white nor black. M.Bitton (talk) 12:54, 31 August 2023 (UTC)

The word Moor is (mostly) old European nonsense. We should descirbe and expose this nonsense; it is the subject of this article. If a high school students comes across a painting of a black person called "A Moor", or comes across the character Othello, and wants to know what that is about, this article should provide an answer. Otherwise, what is this article about? Nø (talk) 13:05, 31 August 2023 (UTC)

The word Moor is not nonsense. As the lead sentence says: it's an exonym first used by Christian Europeans to designate the Muslim populations of the Maghreb, al-Andalus (Iberian Peninsula), Sicily and Malta during the Middle Ages (the designated Muslim populations are what the article is about). M.Bitton (talk) 13:09, 31 August 2023 (UTC)

To my knowledge, Moor is not the correct modern encyclopaedic designation for any ethnic, religious, geographical, historical or national group. Therefore, what Wikipedia may have to say about each of the groups you refer to, as such, belongs in other articles. Nø (talk) 14:41, 31 August 2023 (UTC)

Is the article's topic an English-language exonym, a multi-language set of similar exonyms and cognates used by Christian Europeans, or a specific otherness underpinned by the aforementioned set of exonyms? It may come across as pedantic, but I can't help but frowning upon the opening sentence. "Christian Europeans" are not primarily English speakers, and moor is an English-language word.--Asqueladd (talk) 16:49, 1 September 2023 (UTC)

Mawali/Moors: What has happened to my complexion

His-storians: The same thing that happened to Cham ben Noah, Moshe ben Amram, Yeshua ben Yosep, Dravidians, Sumerians, pharaonic & kemetic dynasties of Nubia and Kush, Olmecs, Mayans, so of course Berbers 155.135.55.231 (talk) 22:44, 12 March 2024 (UTC)

Are you aware that the word 'history' does not actually mean 'his story'. Ario1234 (talk) 09:21, 14 March 2024 (UTC)

If anyone has access to JSTOR here are some articles about African (Black) moors that might be helpful. https://www.jstor.org/action/doBasicSearch?Query=blackamoor Hoodoowoman (talk) 18:09, 31 August 2023 (UTC)Hoodoowoman

Also I found on wikimedia commons historical painted images now in photos of blackmoors from the 17th century and 18th century in Europe. https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:T%C3%AAte_de_Maure.jpg https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Peter_Paul_Rubens_-_Four_Studies_of_a_Head_of_a_Moor_-_Google_Art_Project.jpg https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Gaspar_de_Crayer_-_Head_Study_of_a_Young_Moor_-_WGA5741.jpg Don't know if this will help someone who is interested in writing a section about Blackmoors in the article.Hoodoowoman (talk) 19:55, 31 August 2023 (UTC)Hoodoowoman

@Hoodoowoman: please don't give UNDUE weight to "blackamoor" (whatever that means). M.Bitton (talk) 19:56, 6 September 2023 (UTC)

Hi, I am confused that's what the source says and it's already in the article in the Heraldry section? I am not giving weight to it, just saying how the word moor had different meanings. Is it racially offensive according to present times? I just need more explanations? What about "white moors" in the article? Take that out also? Hoodoowoman (talk) 20:04, 6 September 2023 (UTC)

Of course you are giving UNDUE weight to something called "blackamoor". The word moor may have different meanings, but the article is about the meaning that everyone knows and expects. The Moors had a civilization, a culture, a language, music, architecture, etc., none of which has anything to do with skin colour (certainly, not a black one).

Which white Moor are you referring to? Please be specific. M.Bitton (talk) 20:10, 6 September 2023 (UTC)

I will remove both Hoodoowoman (talk) 20:11, 6 September 2023 (UTC)

You're being evasive. Remove what exactly and why? M.Bitton (talk) 20:13, 6 September 2023 (UTC)

I meant what I edited today that you said don't give weight. What I edited today was removed. I checked the view history and someone else removed what I wrote in the article with sources, text and images removed. Hoodoowoman (talk) 20:21, 6 September 2023 (UTC)

Yes, it was removed because it's clearly UNDUE. For instance, take this image that you added to the top of the article: would anyone consider it to be representative of the Moors? Of course not. We have many contemporary depictions of the Moors that look nothing like it. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that there were no black people among the Moors, that is simply impossible as they have been part of the scene for millennia, but when one thinks of the Moors or the Romans, a black person is not what springs to mind.

The same goes for "blackamoor", a term used by Elizabethans to describe west Africans during the slave trade. Is that what leaps to mind when you think of the Moors and their language, religion, art, science, etc.? M.Bitton (talk) 21:38, 6 September 2023 (UTC)

When I think of moor I think of diversity and culture such as food, language, music, people who are (were in the past) Muslims of any ethnicity or from a certain region, and how the word was used in the past to describe dark skinned people. However the dark skin definition is not used today. Today it has a different meaning, I was just trying to explain how the word was used in the past. I am trying to find reliable sources to say how Africans were a part of Moorish history and culture besides the slave trade. But I will not edit the article, I was just trying to make the article inclusive.

https://www.nationalgeographic.com/history/article/who-were-moors Hoodoowoman (talk) 22:07, 6 September 2023 (UTC)

Yes, let's please not conflate racist European artwork and dubious associated terms with the subject here. The connection is tenuous beyond the name. Iskandar323 (talk) 06:00, 7 September 2023 (UTC)

A Problematic Start To The Article

"The term Moor is an exonym first used by Christian Europeans to designate the Muslim populations of the Maghreb, al-Andalus (Iberian Peninsula), Sicily and Malta during the Middle Ages.[1]"

This is demonstrably untrue. The Moors were often depicted as Christians, especialy Saint Maurice.

What is going on here is 1) the obfuscation of the presence of Black Africans in Europe and 2) the conflation of the terms Moor, Berber and Muslim. This is Christian Europeans depicting Saint Maurice, as a Moor, not long after Moorish rule ended in Spain, in 1491 with the Treaty of Grenada:

Matthias Grünewald, Saints Erasmus and Mauritius, 1520-1524

Saint Maurice, 1525

"Originally the wing of an altarpiece, this panel represents Maurice, the Roman legion commander martyred for refusing to slaughter Christians. It was likely commissioned by Cardinal Albrecht of Brandenburg (1490–1545), the most powerful prelate in the Holy Roman Empire...". Notice that the lifelike depiction in these and many other paintings proves the presence of African people in Europe in the early 1500s.

Why is this image from the 'Arab Agricultural Revolution' page not included? 2001:1C00:1E20:D900:D108:E292:4ECE:682B (talk) 02:35, 31 October 2024 (UTC)

Moor Means Black

Samuel Johnson's A Dictionary Of The English Language (1755, online version) definition of Moor:

MOOR. n.s. [moer, Dutch; modder, Teutonick, clay.]

1. A marsh; a fen; a bog; a tract of low and watry grounds.

2. [Maurus, Latin.] A negro; a black-a-moor.

"I shall answer that better than you can the getting up of the negro’s belly; the moor is with child by you. Shakesp." 2001:1C00:1E20:D900:85E2:BDCB:637:D9D5 (talk) 10:24, 28 October 2024 (UTC)

What change to the article do you have in mind?

Please note that "moor" is a word of uncertain etymology and with varying denotations and connotations in different contexts, which is (or should be) the subject of this article.Nø (talk) 12:50, 28 October 2024 (UTC)

The problem is, there is one connotation that is glaringly missing from the article page. There are many moorish cultural traditions in Europe, from morris dancing to zwarte piet in Holland.

The article could include Saint Maurice. (Atlanta Black Star) Moors, Saints, Knights and Kings: The African Presence in Medieval and Renaissance Europe. Also here: (SMITHSONIAN MAG) Not All the Knights of the Round Table Were White.

On Sir Morien: “He was all black, even as I tell ye: his head, his body, and his hands were all black, saving only his teeth. His shield and his armour were even those of a Moor, and black as a raven.”. 2001:1C00:1E20:D900:B5AA:96B:F68F:4FF5 (talk) 19:00, 29 October 2024 (UTC)

Moor doesn't mean black. There are historical references to white Moors and black Moors. These terms are still used in Mauritania today, where the 'white Moors' are Berbers/Arabs who rule the country and 'black Moors' are descendants of black slaves. Ario1234 (talk) 01:26, 31 October 2024 (UTC)

Saint Maurice was an Egyptian. He's depicted as white and black in historical artworks. In Egypt the Copts depict him as white. Ario1234 (talk) 01:29, 31 October 2024 (UTC)

Even if that were the case, why are there no depictions of Black Moors on the page, at all? 2001:1C00:1E20:D900:D108:E292:4ECE:682B (talk) 01:32, 31 October 2024 (UTC)

There's a couple of depictions of black Moors. But it's true the existence of black Moors isn't properly addressed or explained. Ario1234 (talk) 01:45, 31 October 2024 (UTC)

It looks like previous editors of the page wanted to push back against the conspiracy theory that the Moors were black and that modern North Africans are just recent invaders. Ario1234 (talk) 02:03, 31 October 2024 (UTC)

Now you're implying that Samuel Johnson is an 'Afrocentrist' conspiracy theorist. 2001:1C00:1E20:D900:D108:E292:4ECE:682B (talk) 02:12, 31 October 2024 (UTC)

No, but selectively citing a source like Samuel Johnson and ignoring other evidence is the sort of thing that conspiracy theorists do. Ario1234 (talk) 02:30, 31 October 2024 (UTC)

Actually you're projecting your own agenda onto others. You are very selectively ignoring the massive depiction of Moors as Black. And how is citing Samuel Johnson's dictionary definitions of Moor 'selectively citing a source'? Is there evidence that Samuel Johnson elsewhere said the moors were White that I'm ignoring? 2001:1C00:1E20:D900:D108:E292:4ECE:682B (talk) 02:35, 31 October 2024 (UTC)

No I'm not ignoring anything. I already said there are historical references to both white Moors and black Moors, as well as artistic depictions of white Moors and black Moors, and I told you that the terms 'White Moor' and 'Black Moor' are still used in Mauritania today Ario1234 (talk) 02:47, 31 October 2024 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 14 November 2024

Please bring back the image that was removed here https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Moors&oldid=1254751943

This image was removed after an Afrocentrist YouTube channel spread the baseless claim that this photo doesn't depict Almohad Sultan but rather Visigothic or Levantine scholars in Spain. Their only argument was the fact that the poems don't mention him by name.

I will provide the historical context and evidence to prove that this is false and the person depicted is indeed Almohad sultan Al-Murtada.

Cantiga 181 of the Cantigas de Santa Maria of Alfonso X is titled "The Banner of the Virgin Defeats the Moors at Marrakesh".

source:

The text goes as follows:

The King of Marrakech was at war with another king.

The other king had crossed the Morabe River with a huge army and had laid siege to the city.

The king of Marrakech was advised to go out from the city with his best warriors to do battle. He was to take the banner of Holy Mary and to be accompanied by Christians carrying crosses.

The King followed this advice, and when the banner of Holy Mary was unfurled, the army of the other king was defeated. Many of his men were killed and they lost their tents and possessions.

others, seeing the banner and crosses, fled in great haste.

In this way, the Virgin helped her friends, even though they were of another faith.

The poem talks about the battle between the Almohads and Marinids that took place near Marrakesh in the year 1262. When the Marinid sultan Abu Yusuf attempted to invade Marrakesh which was still held by the last Almohad sultan Abu Hafs Umar al-Murtada.

source: [1]

The historian Joseph F O'Callaghan talks about this event in his book. "Alfonso X and the Cantigas de Santa Maria: A Poetic Biography". In Chapter 7 "The Rise of the Benimerines" page 135 he says:

The invasion of the peninsula in mid-May 1275 by the Benimerines, a new Muslim dynasty from Morocco, dictated the urgency of the king’s movements. The Bani Marin or Marinids, whom the Castilians knew as the Benimerines, rose to power in Morocco on the ashes of the disintegrating Almohad empire. When Alfonso X sent his expedition to Salé in 1260, Abu Yusuf Ya‘qub b. ‘Abd al-Haqq (1258-1286), the emir of the Benimerines, was establishing his rule in that region and occupied Salé after the Castilians abandoned it.

CSM 169.53 described Abu Yusuf as lord of Salé—“o sennor de Cale.” His struggle to overthrow the Almohads extended over a period of years and was not completed until 1269.”

With some satisfaction CSM 181, without mentioning his name, relates the story of a major defeat that Abu Yusuf suffered when he besieged Marrakech—“na cidade de Marrocos que e mui grand’ e fremosa” (6)—at an unknown date, perhaps in 1262 or 1264.?” This richly

illuminated cantiga shows the encampment of the turbanned and bearded Benimerines, armed with shields, lances, and pennants (panel 1). Abu Yusuf’s opponent, presumably al-Murtada, the last of the Almohad caliphs (d. 1268), is depicted with turban and beard and sitting crosslegged as his counselors urge him to give battle, but first to order the Christians of the city to bring out the banner of the Virgin Mary and the crosses from the church:

E porend’ os de Marrocos al Rei tal conssello davan que saisse da cidade con béa gent’ esleuda

D’armas e que mantenente cono outro rei lidasse

e logo fora da vila a sina sacar mandasse

da Virgen Santa Mana, e que per ren non dultasse que os logo non vencesse, pois la ouvesse tenduda;

Demais, que sair fezesse dos crischdos o concello conas cruzes da eigreja (17-26).

In the panels (3-6) portraying the confrontation of the two armies, a body of mounted warriors dressed in mail and bowled helmets carries two crosses and a red banner showing the Virgin Mary seated on a gold throne with her Child in her lap.*® Clearly these are Christian soldiers in the service of the Almohad caliph. Filled with great fear when they saw the Christian symbols, the enemy fled in disorder, leaving their tents behind. “Many of that ugly and bearded people died there”—“‘e morreu _y muita gente dessa fea e barvuda’” (33). The poet concluded triumphantly that Mary helps her friends, even those of another faith, who appealed to her:

E assi Santa Maria ajudou a seus amigos,

pero que d’ outra lei eran, a britar seus éemigos

que, macar que eran muitos, nonos pregaron dous figos, e asst for ssa mercee de todos mui connoguda (40-43).

(text might have errors because it was copied from a pdf)

source:

As you can see. the panel does indeed depict Almohad sultan al-Murtada consulting his counselors including christian ones from Castille as the Merinids were shared enemies for both Almohads and Castille. Castille was allied with the Almohad sultan Al-Murtada. And this poem talks about how the christians convinced him to let the christian soldiers carry the banner of Holy Virgin Mary. Which according to Castillian was the reason the Almohad army defeated the Marinid army.

I hope the image is brought back as I have provided extensive evidence. And please be careful with Afrocentric vandalization of such articles. AdamElMerini (talk) 03:28, 14 November 2024 (UTC)

 Not done for now: please establish a consensus for this alteration before using the {{Edit semi-protected}} template. I also suggest you read this discussion M.Bitton (talk) 21:30, 14 November 2024 (UTC)

I think a consensus was already established here. I also read the entire discussion and my edit answers all the questions mentioned there. AdamElMerini (talk) 01:22, 15 November 2024 (UTC)

I do agree with AdamElMerini here, this image was removed way too quickly and before proper discussion. This is a contentious topic, and afrocentrists indeed try to change these pages. It seems there is much more evidence pointing to the fact that the man pictured is indeed al-Murtada LouisBStevenson (talk) 17:22, 19 November 2024 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 14 November 2024

Please bring back the image that was removed here https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Moors&oldid=1254751943

This image was removed after an Afrocentrist YouTube channel spread the baseless claim that this photo doesn't depict Almohad Sultan but rather Visigothic or Levantine scholars in Spain. Their only argument was the fact that the poems don't mention him by name.

I will provide the historical context and evidence to prove that this is false and the person depicted is indeed Almohad sultan Al-Murtada.

Cantiga 181 of the Cantigas de Santa Maria of Alfonso X is titled "The Banner of the Virgin Defeats the Moors at Marrakesh".

source:

The text goes as follows:

The King of Marrakech was at war with another king.

The other king had crossed the Morabe River with a huge army and had laid siege to the city.

The king of Marrakech was advised to go out from the city with his best warriors to do battle. He was to take the banner of Holy Mary and to be accompanied by Christians carrying crosses.

The King followed this advice, and when the banner of Holy Mary was unfurled, the army of the other king was defeated. Many of his men were killed and they lost their tents and possessions.

others, seeing the banner and crosses, fled in great haste.

In this way, the Virgin helped her friends, even though they were of another faith.

The poem talks about the battle between the Almohads and Marinids that took place near Marrakesh in the year 1262. When the Marinid sultan Abu Yusuf attempted to invade Marrakesh which was still held by the last Almohad sultan Abu Hafs Umar al-Murtada.

source: [2]

The historian Joseph F O'Callaghan talks about this event in his book. "Alfonso X and the Cantigas de Santa Maria: A Poetic Biography". In Chapter 7 "The Rise of the Benimerines" page 135 he says:

The invasion of the peninsula in mid-May 1275 by the Benimerines, a new Muslim dynasty from Morocco, dictated the urgency of the king’s movements. The Bani Marin or Marinids, whom the Castilians knew as the Benimerines, rose to power in Morocco on the ashes of the disintegrating Almohad empire. When Alfonso X sent his expedition to Salé in 1260, Abu Yusuf Ya‘qub b. ‘Abd al-Haqq (1258-1286), the emir of the Benimerines, was establishing his rule in that region and occupied Salé after the Castilians abandoned it.

CSM 169.53 described Abu Yusuf as lord of Salé—“o sennor de Cale.” His struggle to overthrow the Almohads extended over a period of years and was not completed until 1269.”

With some satisfaction CSM 181, without mentioning his name, relates the story of a major defeat that Abu Yusuf suffered when he besieged Marrakech—“na cidade de Marrocos que e mui grand’ e fremosa” (6)—at an unknown date, perhaps in 1262 or 1264.?” This richly

illuminated cantiga shows the encampment of the turbanned and bearded Benimerines, armed with shields, lances, and pennants (panel 1). Abu Yusuf’s opponent, presumably al-Murtada, the last of the Almohad caliphs (d. 1268), is depicted with turban and beard and sitting crosslegged as his counselors urge him to give battle, but first to order the Christians of the city to bring out the banner of the Virgin Mary and the crosses from the church:

E porend’ os de Marrocos al Rei tal conssello davan que saisse da cidade con béa gent’ esleuda

D’armas e que mantenente cono outro rei lidasse

e logo fora da vila a sina sacar mandasse

da Virgen Santa Mana, e que per ren non dultasse que os logo non vencesse, pois la ouvesse tenduda;

Demais, que sair fezesse dos crischdos o concello conas cruzes da eigreja (17-26).

In the panels (3-6) portraying the confrontation of the two armies, a body of mounted warriors dressed in mail and bowled helmets carries two crosses and a red banner showing the Virgin Mary seated on a gold throne with her Child in her lap.*® Clearly these are Christian soldiers in the service of the Almohad caliph. Filled with great fear when they saw the Christian symbols, the enemy fled in disorder, leaving their tents behind. “Many of that ugly and bearded people died there”—“‘e morreu _y muita gente dessa fea e barvuda’” (33). The poet concluded triumphantly that Mary helps her friends, even those of another faith, who appealed to her:

E assi Santa Maria ajudou a seus amigos,

pero que d’ outra lei eran, a britar seus éemigos

que, macar que eran muitos, nonos pregaron dous figos, e asst for ssa mercee de todos mui connoguda (40-43).

(text might have errors because it was copied from a pdf)

source:

As you can see. the panel does indeed depict Almohad sultan al-Murtada consulting his counselors including christian ones from Castille as the Merinids were shared enemies for both Almohads and Castille. Castille was allied with the Almohad sultan Al-Murtada. And this poem talks about how the christians convinced him to let the christian soldiers carry the banner of Holy Virgin Mary. Which according to Castillian was the reason the Almohad army defeated the Marinid army.

I hope the image is brought back as I have provided extensive evidence. And please be careful with Afrocentric vandalization of such articles. AdamElMerini (talk) 03:28, 14 November 2024 (UTC)

 Not done for now: please establish a consensus for this alteration before using the {{Edit semi-protected}} template. I also suggest you read this discussion M.Bitton (talk) 21:30, 14 November 2024 (UTC)

I think a consensus was already established here. I also read the entire discussion and my edit answers all the questions mentioned there. AdamElMerini (talk) 01:22, 15 November 2024 (UTC)

I do agree with AdamElMerini here, this image was removed way too quickly and before proper discussion. This is a contentious topic, and afrocentrists indeed try to change these pages. It seems there is much more evidence pointing to the fact that the man pictured is indeed al-Murtada LouisBStevenson (talk) 17:22, 19 November 2024 (UTC)

Unsourced Claim

"Castillian ambassadors attempting to convince Moorish Almohad king Abu Hafs Umar al-Murtada to join their alliance (contemporary depiction from the Cantigas de Santa María)"

What is the source for this statement? What is the evidence that this individual is Moorish Almohad king Abu Hafs al-Murtada? Or is Moorish? Or even a Muslim? 2001:1C00:1E20:D900:D108:E292:4ECE:682B (talk) 11:58, 31 October 2024 (UTC)

Those labels and others are probably based on this book Alfonso X and The Cantigas de Santa Maria: A Poetic Biography (1998): https://archive.org/details/alf_20231212/page/n27/mode/2up 41.222.179.226 (talk) 12:37, 31 October 2024 (UTC)

"probably"? What standard of referencing is that?

The page's actual and only caption reads:

"9. Abu Yusuf, the emir of Benimerines, is defeated in Morocco by Christian knights bearing the banner of Holy Mary. Cantigas de Santa Maria, 181. Escorial MS T.I.l."

So, not the Moorish Almohad King Abu Hafs al-Murtada?

In fact, the Benimerimes had overthrown the Almohads.

Wikipedia: "They emerged after the fall of the Almohad Empire" 2001:1C00:1E20:D900:D108:E292:4ECE:682B (talk) 13:57, 1 November 2024 (UTC)

Evidently, I never went through the whole book, but skimmed through and saw that some illustrations do name certain figures/events and have a history behind them, that was my false assumption for others.

Here's an obscure website I managed to find, but it is polemic against "Afrocentrism" and not credible, it labels the image in question as 'King Umar al-Murtada, the Almohad ruler of Morocco, is persuaded to ally with Christians.' https://www.angelfire.com/md/8/moors.html However this link is completely unreliable in this case for obvious reasons.

Something to note is here on the The Oxford Cantigas de Santa Maria database search, 'Umar al-Murtada' is on the named persons, but it does not show in which codex rendition or poem the reference has him listed on. https://csm.mml.ox.ac.uk/index.php?p=poem_search

I came across this on Alamy as well, which has a label for that image, but this is a stock website.

https://www.alamy.com/a-portrait-of-moorish-almohad-king-abu-hafs-umar-al-murtada-from-the-cantigas-de-santa-mara-north-africa-and-southern-spain-were-united-politically-during-the-11th-13th-centuries-under-a-dynasty-of-berber-origins-the-almohad-empire-extending-from-the-atlantic-to-tripoli-in-present-day-libya-and-from-current-mauritania-in-the-south-to-the-walls-of-toledo-in-the-iberian-peninsula-to-the-north-the-largest-ever-european-african-empire-image417856384.html

Anyway, regardless, I noticed the picture has now been removed as contested for the time being. Maybe someone else can find a direct and clear academic source as we see for Abu Yusuf, the Emir of Benimerines. 41.222.177.181 (talk) 15:14, 1 November 2024 (UTC)

refer to my suggested edit bellow. I provided evidence from multiple sources that this is almohad sultan al-murtada AdamElMerini (talk) 01:38, 15 November 2024 (UTC)

From the authors of "The Fayum portraits are fake", "Moor is Blackmoor", "Let's ignore that in the Classical Antiquity Africa was Tunisia and little else, and that in medieval Europe an African was a Maghrebi Christian", "We can't see the pale Libyans in the Book of Gates", "Saint Maurice, Hannibal, Cleopatra VII, Septimius Severus and Queen Charlotte were black", "Orgasm with the XXV Dynasty", "West Africa was not part and parcel in the Transatlantic Slave Trade", "The evil Greeks stole the Black African Wisdom", "The evil Arab Muslims exterminated the OG Black North Africans, but for a weird reason the prevalent patrilineal and male-only Y-DNA haplogroup in North Africa is E1b1b (E-M81 clade) and not J1 like in Saudi Arabia", "Al-Andalus was Black" and "We apply a 100% USAmerican obsession with skin colour, race and pseudo-history to other lands and historical periods", now on our screens: "The Cantigas de Santa María are fake". 85.84.57.60 (talk) 09:45, 20 November 2024 (UTC)