Talk:Miyu Nagasaki

Requested move 3 February 2021

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: No consensus to move (non-admin closure) (t · c) buidhe 04:00, 15 February 2021 (UTC)

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Miyu Nagasaki → Miyuu Nagasaki – Per her own preference: Twitter, Instagram, and the back of her jersey this season which reads "N. Miyuu" (see this video [1] for example). In Japan, she and her regular doubles partner Miyuu Kihara are dubbed ダブルみゆう (23,000,000 results according to Google), or "Double Miyū" (because they are currently the best teenaged players in Japan, the worlds' best ranked doubles pair as of January 2021, who also happen to be schoolmates, T.League teammates and best friends) and the name is hard to translate when one is "Miyu" and the other "Miyuu" 67.149.246.163 (talk) 21:34, 3 February 2021 (UTC)

• Strong oppose.
  1. Most of the reliable sources spell her name as "Miyu Nagasaki". Simply search Google News. A search for "Miyu Nagasaki" returns 181 hits [2]. (The Japan Times spell her name as "Miyu Nagazaki", for example.) A search for "Miyuu Nagasaki" returns 1 (one) hit [3].
  2. Wikipedia uses Hepburn romanization. We can add a macron above "u", if you like. I don't mind, it's not a big difference. But I strongly oppose "Miyuu" cause it is neither the most recognizable spelling, nor the Hepburn romanization of the name. --Moscow Connection (talk) 22:27, 3 February 2021 (UTC)

• If you know some Japanese as your infobox indicates, you should know that there is a big difference between Miyu and Miyū. Right now, many table tennis fans who don't know Japanese think she and Miyuu Kihara have different given names (technically they do but the pronunciations are identical). Secondly, due to COVID-19 halting all international competitions, most of the English-language news are from 2019 (when she was 16) or earlier, but she has been playing professionally in her country and increasingly more webpages there use the "Miyuu" romanization, like her sponsor and her team store. Most importantly, if she uses Miyu then I won't say anything, but Miyuu does seem to be her own preference now that she is an adult, and I believe we should respect that. 67.149.246.163 (talk) 23:11, 3 February 2021 (UTC)
  • There's not much of a difference between a long vowel and a short vowel. At least to a non-Japanese person. And, as I've said, I'm willing to respect the difference and add a macron above "u". We can rename both articles, to "Miyū Nagasaki" and "Miyū Kihara", respectively. --Moscow Connection (talk) 00:07, 4 February 2021 (UTC)

• Oppose per WP:COMMONNAME and WP:USEENGLISH. According to Wikipedia policy, her name in English should be spelled according to how reliable secondary English-language sources spell it, and that appears to be the current article title. Rreagan007 (talk) 22:53, 3 February 2021 (UTC)
• Support per nomination. Subject should be allowed to choose how she transliterates her own name into English. In addition to her already-linked Twitter and Instagram accounts, her Facebook page also uses the form "Miyuu". As for the name form itself, Wikipedia already has an above-indicated entry for Miyuu Nagasaki's playing partner Miyuu Kihara as well as for others using the form "Miyuu", such as Miyuu Oishi, Miyuu Sawai, Miyuu Tsuzurahara or Miyuu Yamamoto. —Roman Spinner (talk • contribs) 00:18, 4 February 2021 (UTC)
  • The articles weren't named correctly. There are many Miyūs on Wikipedia whose articles are using the forms "Miyū" and "Miyu". "Miyū" is the preferred form according to the Hepburn system (which is the de-facto standard on Wikipedia and elsewhere). And "Miyu" is basically the same spelling, but without the macron that isn't commonly used in English, so it is natural for English-language magazines/newspapers to just lose it. Even The Japan Times call her Miyu →→→ "Teen duo Miyu Kihara, Miyu Nagasaki capture table tennis Grand Finals title". --Moscow Connection (talk) 00:41, 4 February 2021 (UTC)

No one is disputing the Hepburn system's standard use or the fact that The Japan Times uses "Miyu" for both Miyuu Kihara and Miyuu Nagasaki. However, as pointed out by 67.149.246.163, both women's preference for the transliterated form "Miyuu" should be respected. One size does not fit all and subjects of Wikipedia entries should not be shoehorned into standard forms when their preference is for individualistic forms. Recent discussions at Talk:Anton Du Beke#Requested move 18 December 2020 and at Talk:Eliane Tillieux#Requested move 22 December 2020 affirmed respect for subjects' use of self-chosen forms. —Roman Spinner (talk • contribs) 01:14, 4 February 2021 (UTC)

It has not been demonstrated it is their conscious preference above all the other possible spellings. It is common for Japanese people to write their names in English with "uu" and "ou" without thinking much. (Just mirroring the hiragana spellings.) This doesn't mean that reliable sources can't choose a better spelling, a spelling that is better suited for English speakers. (Who may become confused by the proposed spelling and pronounce the name as "Miyuyu". After all, she is Miyu and not "Miyu-u", "Miyu-yu" or whatever.) --Moscow Connection (talk) 01:38, 4 February 2021 (UTC)

Continuing use of "Miyuu" on Twitter, Instagram and Facebook indicates conscious preference. Although "Miyuu" is a non-standard form of transliteration into English, other women have also been transliterating their name into English as "Miyuu", rather than as "Miyu" or "Miyū". Also, since Miyuu Kihara has been using "Miyuu" longer than Miyuu Nagasaki, her name in that form is being used by various references, including ITTF World Ranking Profile. —Roman Spinner (talk • contribs) 02:16, 4 February 2021 (UTC)

You are just inventing things. Miyu Nagasaki is older, why would Kihara be using the spelling longer than she? As I've said, they (or their coaches, or whoever) probably just mirrored the hiragana spellings and didn't give the matter much thought. Since the ITTF spells Nagasaka's name as "Miyu", we should too. (I'm okay with adding a macron cause it is a very minor change that doesn't affect the recognizability or anything.) --Moscow Connection (talk) 02:27, 4 February 2021 (UTC)

Unless these teenage table tennis playing partners don't communicate with each other about their social media activity, there must have been some conversation between them as to why the younger one would transliterate her own name into English as "Miyuu Kihara" and the older one would initially transliterate her own name as "Miyu Nagasaki", but then decide to transliterate it as "Miyuu", the same form as that used by her younger partner.

Thus, unless we are to assume that these young women don't know any English and that their English-language Twitter, Instagram and Facebook posts are written or translated in their name by their coaches (or whoever), we must assume that they are aware of the difference between "Miyuu" and "Miyu" (no diacritics are used in either name) and know that many Japanese women use "Miyu" and have nevertheless deliberately decided to use the form "Miyuu". —Roman Spinner (talk • contribs) 05:15, 4 February 2021 (UTC)

As I've said, you are just inventing things. Why would they discuss the matter? "Miyuu" is based on the hiragana spelling and is obviously the first choice for a person creating an Instagram account. But we don't spell "Tokyo" as "Toukyou", cause it would look confusing to English speakers. As for the diacritic, it is (nearly) impossible to type using a standard keyboard, so it makes perfect sense that people don't use macrons on Facebook, Twitter and Instagram. --Moscow Connection (talk) 11:49, 4 February 2021 (UTC)

Actually, I've looked at her Twitter and Instagram. Both say simply: "長崎 美柚 Nagasaki Miyuu". It's just her Japanese name and its romanized hiragana spelling. I hope you won't propose to rename the article to "Nagasaki Miyuu" arguing that she prefers using the reversed name order and not the Western one. --Moscow Connection (talk) 21:16, 4 February 2021 (UTC)

• I've looked at the articles you mentioned and what do I see? 1. "Miyuu Oishi" is a redirect to "E-girls" where the person is called Miyū Ōishi. 2. "Miyuu Tsuzurahara" is a redirect to "Miyū Tsuzurahara". --Moscow Connection (talk) 01:06, 4 February 2021 (UTC)

• The International Table Tennis Federation calls her Miyu → https://www.ittf.com/tag/miyu-nagasaki/. --Moscow Connection (talk) 00:54, 4 February 2021 (UTC)
• Oppose. The only evidence offered above is primary sources, plus the opinion that Subject should be allowed to choose how she transliterates her own name into English. While this makes perfect sense to me, it's not our current policy, and I see no reason to change that long-established policy that has served us well, nor to make an exception in this case. Andrewa (talk) 01:24, 12 February 2021 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.