Talk:Minneapolis/Archive 11

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Sources that have been checked

For the archive, these sources have been cleared at WP:RSN for non-controversial use in this and in one case a related article. Also WikiProject Radio said Radio Locator is possibly all right and I couldn't get an alternative after Nielsen closed off the page we needed.

• Southwest Voices
• Racket
• Streets.mn
• Stacker
• Shanghai, QS, Times Higher Education, and US News & World Report college rankings (combination of WP:RSN and WikiProject Higher Education)
• Charles Fisk and ClimateStations.com got zero comments at WP:RSN

-SusanLesch (talk) 22:26, 3 May 2023 (UTC)

Your edits

User:AuH2ORepublican, thank you for your contributions. I reverted your changes per MOS:US and MOS:RACECAPS. This article has established style and you overrode that. Best wishes, SusanLesch (talk) 21:38, 8 May 2023 (UTC)

Sourcing and due weight

There is a lot of content using self-citations, eg:

• The Open Book facility houses the Minnesota Center for Book Arts and The Loft Literary Center. Other Minneapolis publishers are 1517 Media, Button Poetry, and Lerner Publishing Group.

Sources

What is the criteria for deciding things like this are to be included, if there are not secondary mentions of their significance? Check throughout needed ... SandyGeorgia (Talk) 00:18, 11 May 2023 (UTC)

Open Book is famous. I'll add NYT as a source.

Much tougher for publishers and magazines, I used the Minnesota Magazine & Publishing Association from the Internet Archive because the organization is defunct. They may have to be deleted because other than link aggregators there aren't other sources. -SusanLesch (talk) 13:30, 12 May 2023 (UTC)

Prose

What is this trying to say (I can't decipher):

• As of 2023, sales (and local use tax for out-of-state purchases[343]) charged within the city totals 8.03 percent, a combination of state, county, special district, and a city sales tax of 0.50 percent.

Is it ... ?

• The tax rate on purchases within the city is 8.03 percent as of 2023; this tax is a combination of state, county, and special district taxes along with a city sales tax of 0.50 percent and a local use tax for out-of-state purchases.

? SandyGeorgia (Talk) 00:31, 11 May 2023 (UTC)

Yes, much better, thanks. I got bogged down in the math.-SusanLesch (talk) 13:32, 12 May 2023 (UTC)

Suggestions for rephrasing demographics section

I believe that the current wording of Minneapolis' demographic history is convoluted and difficult to understand. I have attempted to simplify it without eliminating any information, but I would appreciate your feedback before making any changes. Please let me know what you think.

Update: I've decided to add some suggestions on things I think should be added or cut. Additions are underlined, while cuts are struckout.

Suggestions for demographics section

Current text	Revised text
Dakota tribes, mostly the Mdewakanton, occupied the area of present-day Minneapolis when European Americans pushed west. In the 1840s, new settlers came from Maine, New Hampshire, and Massachusetts. French-Canadians came about this same time, and farmers from Illinois, Indiana, Ohio, and Pennsylvania began secondary migration. A small fraction of the populace, settlers from New England had an outsized influence on civic life.	The Minneapolis area was originally occupied by Dakota tribes, particularly the Mdewakanton, until European Americans moved westward. In the 1840s, new settlers arrived from Maine, New Hampshire, and Massachusetts, while French-Canadians also came around the same time. Farmers from Illinois, Indiana, Ohio, and Pennsylvania later followed in a secondary migration. Despite being a small fraction of the population, settlers from New England had a significant impact on civic life.
While few then lived in the state year around, migrant workers from Mexico came to Minnesota as early as 1860. Latinos settled in the city's Phillips, Whittier, Longfellow and Northeast neighborhoods. Just before the turn of the 21st century, Latinos were the state's largest group of immigrants, as well as the fastest growing. Settlers from Sweden, Norway, and Denmark found harmony in the Republican and Protestant belief systems of the migrants from New England who preceded them. After the Civil War, Irish, Scots and English immigrated, followed by Germans and Jews from Central and Eastern Europe, and Russia. Italians and Greeks first came to Minneapolis in the 1890s and 1900s. Slovak and Czech immigrants lived in the Bohemian Flats alongside the Mississippi's west bank. After 1900, Ukrainians arrived, and Central European migrants settled in the Northeast neighborhood.	Mexican migrant workers began coming to Minnesota as early as 1860, although few stayed year-round. Latinos eventually settled in several neighborhoods in Minneapolis, including Phillips, Whittier, Longfellow, and Northeast, becoming the state's largest and fastest-growing group of immigrants just before the turn of the 21st century. Settlers from Sweden, Norway, and Denmark found common ground with the Republican and Protestant belief systems of the New England migrants who preceded them, while Irish, Scots, and English immigrants arrived after the Civil War. Germans and Jews from Central and Eastern Europe, as well as Russia, followed. Minneapolis welcomed Italians and Greeks in the 1890s and 1900s, and Slovak and Czech immigrants settled in the Bohemian Flats area on the west bank of the Mississippi. Ukrainians arrived after 1900, and Central European migrants made their homes in the Northeast neighborhood.
Facing under President Chester A. Arthur the first-ever US government ban of a specific ethnic group, Chinese began immigration in the 1870s. Moved from San Francisco, Japanese Americans worked for Camp Savage, a secret military Japanese-language school that trained interpreters and translators. After World War II, some Japanese and Japanese Americans remained in Minneapolis and in 1970, they numbered nearly two thousand—at the time, part of the state's largest Asian-American ethnic group. Around 1970, Koreans came and the first Filipinos arrived to attend the University of Minnesota. Arriving around 1975, Vietnamese; Hmong, some from Thailand; Lao; and Cambodians settled mainly in Saint Paul, and some of their organizations formed in Minneapolis. In 1992, 160 Tibetan immigrants came to Minnesota; many live in the city's Whittier neighborhood.People came from Burma in the early 2000s, many becoming secondary immigrants to Greater Minnesota. The largest concentration living in the state, the Minneapolis population of people from India increased by 1,000 between 2000 and 2010.	During President Chester A. Arthur's tenure, the US government issued its first-ever ban on a specific ethnic group, significantly limiting Chinese immigration after 1882. Japanese Americans, relocated from San Francisco, worked at Camp Savage, a secret military Japanese-language school that trained interpreters and translators. Following World War II, some Japanese and Japanese Americans remained in Minneapolis, and by 1970, they numbered nearly two thousand, forming part of the state's Asian-American community. Koreans arrived around 1970, and the first Filipinos came to attend the University of Minnesota. Vietnamese, Hmong (some from Thailand), Lao, and Cambodians settled mainly in Saint Paul around 1975, but some opted for Minneapolis. In 1992, 160 Tibetan immigrants came to Minnesota, and many settled in the city's Whittier neighborhood. Burmese immigrants arrived in the early 2000s, with many becoming secondary immigrants to Greater Minnesota. The population of people from India in Minneapolis increased by 1,000 between 2000 and 2010, making it the largest concentration of Indians living in the state.
During the 1950s, the US government relocated Native Americans to cities like Minneapolis, attempting to do away with Indian reservations. The population of Minneapolis grew until 1950 when the census peaked at 521,718—the only time it has exceeded a half million. The population then declined for decades; after World War II, people moved to the suburbs, and generally out of the Midwest. Migrating from Missouri, Arkansas, and Illinois, eight Black families lived in Minneapolis in 1857. In 1910, Minneapolis had about 2,500 Black residents. In 1930, Minneapolis Blacks were among the nation's most literate (1.7 percent of Blacks over 10 years of age could not read and write, compared to the national average of 16.3 percent). Nevertheless, discrimination against Blacks excluded them from all but the lowest paying jobs. In 1935, Cecil Newman and the Minneapolis Spokesman led a year-long consumer boycott of four area breweries that refused to hire Blacks.Employment, but not housing, improved during World War II. Between 1950 and 1970, the Black population of Minneapolis increased by 436 percent. After the Rust Belt economy declined during the early 1980s, Black migrants were drawn to the Minneapolis area by its abundance of jobs, good schools, and relatively safe neighborhoods. Beginning in the 1990s, immigrants came from the Horn of Africa, especially Somalia;however, Somali immigration slowed after a 2017 executive order from President Donald Trump. As of 2019, more than 20,000 Somalis live in Minneapolis.	In the 1950s, Native Americans were relocated to cities, including Minneapolis, as the US government attempted to eliminate Indian reservations. The population of Minneapolis reached its peak in 1950 with 521,718 residents, but began to decline in subsequent decades as people moved to the suburbs and out of the Midwest. In 1857, eight Black families from Missouri, Arkansas, and Illinois migrated to Minneapolis. By 1910, there were approximately 2,500 Black residents, and by 1930, Minneapolis had some of the most literate Black residents in the nation. However, discrimination prevented them from obtaining higher-paying jobs. In 1935, a consumer boycott was organized against four breweries that refused to hire Blacks. Employment improved during World War II, but housing discrimination persisted. Between 1950 and 1970, the Black population in Minneapolis increased by 436%. After the Rust Belt economy declined in the 1980s, Black migrants were attracted to Minneapolis for its job opportunities, good schools, and relatively safe neighborhoods. In the 1990s, immigrants from the Horn of Africa, particularly Somalia, began to arrive, though their immigration slowed after a 2017 executive order by President Donald Trump. As of 2019, over 20,000 Somalis reside in Minneapolis.
In Minneapolis, African Americans comprise approximately 20% of the population as of 2020. However, a Black family's annual income is less than half of that earned by a White family, and they own homes at a rate one-third that of White families. In 2018, the median income for a Black family was $36,000, which is $47,000 less than a White family's median income. This income gap is one of the largest in the country, with Black Minneapolitans earning only about 44% of what White Minneapolitans earn annually.	In Minneapolis, African Americans comprise approximately 20% of the population as of 2020. However, a Black family's annual income is less than half of that earned by a White family, and they own homes at a rate one-third that of White families. In 2018, the median income for a Black family was $36,000, which is $47,000 less than a White family's median income. This income gap is one of the largest in the country, with Black Minneapolitans earning only about 44% of what White Minneapolitans earn annually.
In 2020 based on Gallup data, UCLA's Williams Institute reported the Twin Cities had an estimated LGBT adult population of 4.2%, the 18th-highest number of LGBT residents of the 50 largest metropolitan areas in the US, and did not rank by percent. Human Rights Campaign gave Minneapolis its highest-possible score in 2022.	The Williams Institute reported that the Twin Cities had an estimated 4.2% LGBT adult population in 2020. In 2022, the Human Rights Campaign gave Minneapolis its highest score possible.
According to the 2020 US census, the population of Minneapolis was 429,954. Hispanic or Latino comprised 44,513 (10.4 percent). Among those not Hispanic or Latino, 249,581 (58.0 percent) were White alone (62.7 percent White alone or in combination), 81,088 (18.9 percent) were Black or African American alone (21.3 percent Black alone or in combination), 24,929 (5.8 percent) were Asian alone, 7,433 (1.2 percent) were American Indian and Alaska Native alone, 25,387 (0.6 percent) some other race alone, and 34,463 (5.2 percent) were multiracial. According to the 2021 ACS, the most common ancestries were German (22.9 percent), Irish (10.8 percent), Norwegian (8.9 percent), Subsaharan African (6.7 percent), and Swedish (6.1 percent). US veterans made up 3.2 percent of the population. Among those five years and older, 81.2 percent spoke only English at home, while 7.1 percent spoke Spanish and 11.7 percent spoke other languages, including large numbers of Somali and Hmong speakers. Those born abroad made up 13.7 percent of the population, 53.2 percent of whom were naturalized US citizens. The most common regions from which immigrants arrived were Africa (40.6 percent), Asia (24.6 percent), and Latin America (25.2 percent). 34.6 percent of all foreign-born residents had arrived in 2010 or earlier. The 2021 ACS found the median household income in Minneapolis was $69,397. For families it was $97,670, married couples $123,693, and non-family households $54,083. The census found that 15.0 percent lived in poverty. Residents who had obtained a bachelor's degree or higher made up 53.6 percent of the population, and 92.1 percent had at least a high school degree. The median gross rent in Minneapolis was $1,225. The homeownership rate was 49.8 percent, much lower than the overall state rate (73.0 percent). The survey found that 92.7 percent of housing units in Minneapolis were occupied, and 43.7 percent of housing units in the city were built in 1939 or earlier.	Based on the 2020 US census, the population of Minneapolis was 429,954, with Hispanic or Latino people comprising 10.4 percent or 44,513 people. Among those who were not Hispanic or Latino, 249,581 people (58.0 percent) were White alone, 81,088 people (18.9 percent) were Black or African American alone, 24,929 people (5.8 percent) were Asian alone, 7,433 people (1.2 percent) were American Indian and Alaska Native alone, 25,387 people (0.6 percent) belonged to some other race alone, and 34,463 people (5.2 percent) were multiracial. The most common ancestries in Minneapolis according to the 2021 ACS were German (22.9 percent), Irish (10.8 percent), Norwegian (8.9 percent), Subsaharan African (6.7 percent), and Swedish (6.1 percent). Among those aged five years and older, 81.2 percent spoke only English at home, while 7.1 percent spoke Spanish and 11.7 percent spoke other languages, including large numbers of Somali and Hmong speakers. About 13.7 percent of the population was born abroad, with 53.2 percent of them being naturalized US citizens. Most immigrants arrived from Africa (40.6 percent), Asia (24.6 percent), and Latin America (25.2 percent), with 34.6 percent of all foreign-born residents having arrived in 2010 or earlier. The 2021 ACS reported that the median household income in Minneapolis was $69,397, while for families, it was $97,670. The median income for married couples was $123,693, and for non-family households, it was $54,083. The census found that 15.0 percent of residents lived in poverty. The percentage of residents who had obtained a bachelor's degree or higher was 53.6 percent, and 92.1 percent had at least a high school degree. The median gross rent in Minneapolis was $1,225, and the homeownership rate was 49.8 percent, much lower than the overall state rate of 73.0 percent. The survey found that 92.7 percent of housing units in Minneapolis were occupied, and 43.7 percent of housing units in the city were built in 1939 or earlier.
The indigenous Dakota people believed in the Great Spirit, and were surprised that not all European settlers were religious. More than 50 denominations and religions are present in Minneapolis; a majority of the city's population are Christian. Settlers who arrived from New England were for the most part Protestants, Quakers, and Universalists. The oldest continuously used church, Our Lady of Lourdes Catholic Church, was built in 1856 by Universalists and soon afterward was acquired by a French Catholic congregation.The first Jewish congregation was formed in 1878 as Shaarai Tov, and built Temple Israel in 1928. St. Mary's Orthodox Cathedral was founded in 1887; it opened a missionary school and created the first Russian Orthodox seminary in the U.S. Edwin Hawley Hewitt designed St. Mark's Episcopal Cathedral and Hennepin Avenue United Methodist Church, both of which are located south of downtown. The Basilica of Saint Mary, the first basilica in the US and co-cathedral of the Roman Catholic Archdiocese of Saint Paul and Minneapolis, was named by Pope Pius XI in 1926. By 1959, a Temple of Islam was located in north Minneapolis, and the Islamic Center of Minnesota was established in 1965. Somalis who live in Minneapolis are primarily Sunni Muslim. Minneapolis became the first major American city to publicly broadcast the Muslim call to prayer after March 2022, when the city council approved a resolution to allow it. In 1971, a reported 150 persons attended classes at a Hindu temple near the university. In 1972, a relief agency resettled the first Shi'a Muslim family from Uganda in the Twin Cities. The city has about seven Buddhist centers and meditation centers. The Billy Graham Evangelistic Association was headquartered in Minneapolis from about 1950 until 2001. Christ Church Lutheran in the Longfellow neighborhood was the final work in the career of Eliel Saarinen, and has an education building designed by his son Eero.	The Dakota people, who were the indigenous inhabitants of Minneapolis, believed in the Great Spirit and were surprised to find that not all European settlers were religious. Today, more than 50 denominations and religions are represented in the city, with a majority of the population identifying as Christian. Early settlers from New England were mostly Protestants, Quakers, and Universalists. Our Lady of Lourdes Catholic Church, which was built by Universalists in 1856 and acquired by a French Catholic congregation shortly thereafter, is the oldest continuously used church in the city. Temple Israel was built in 1928 by the first Jewish congregation, Shaarai Tov, which was formed in 1878. St. Mary's Orthodox Cathedral, founded in 1887, established the first Russian Orthodox seminary in the US and opened a missionary school. St. Mark's Episcopal Cathedral and Hennepin Avenue United Methodist Church, both designed by Edwin Hawley Hewitt, are located south of downtown. The Basilica of Saint Mary, the first basilica in the US and co-cathedral of the Roman Catholic Archdiocese of Saint Paul and Minneapolis, was designated as such by Pope Pius XI in 1926. In 1959, a Temple of Islam was established in north Minneapolis, and in 1965 the Islamic Center of Minnesota was founded. The Somali community in Minneapolis is primarily Sunni Muslim. In March 2022, Minneapolis became the first major US city to publicly broadcast the Muslim call to prayer after the city council approved a resolution to allow it. In 1971, a Hindu temple near the university saw around 150 persons attend classes. The first Shi'a Muslim family from Uganda was resettled in the Twin Cities by a relief agency in 1972. There are currently about seven Buddhist centers and meditation centers in Minneapolis. The Billy Graham Evangelistic Association was headquartered in Minneapolis from 1950 to 2001. Christ Church Lutheran in the Longfellow neighborhood, the final work of Eliel Saarinen, has an education building designed by his son Eero.

Svenskbygderna (talk) 04:02, 1 May 2023 (UTC)

Wonderful! Please go ahead with your changes, Svenskbygderna. I have only about three minor changes to what you wrote and will add them after you make yours. We are lucky to have your attention. So you think the sub-section "2020 census and 2021 estimates" is good to go now? -SusanLesch (talk) 18:33, 1 May 2023 (UTC)

The main thing is we can't skip over the influence of immigrants from New England. Search for "New England" in Claiming the City: Politics, Faith, and the Power of Place in St. Paul by Mary Lethert Wingerd, a highly reliable third-party source. She says similar things elsewhere but this book concentrates that thought. In this article the idea is sourced to Stipanovich. Other things: I don't think we should omit US veterans, the Chinese, President Arthur (if we're including President Trump), and indigenous religion. Maybe omit Trump, too? E.g., "In the 1990s, immigrants from the Horn of Africa, particularly Somalia, began to arrive, though their immigration slowed after a 2017 executive order." -SusanLesch (talk) 19:48, 1 May 2023 (UTC)

Susan, I want to give the 2020 census and 2021 estimates another look over before updating the page, but for the most part it looks good. I just want to verify that the statistics are sourced properly (either to the census or the ACS). Svenskbygderna (talk) 15:15, 5 May 2023 (UTC)

Susan, thank you for sharing the relevence of the items I was considering removing. It sounds like there is good justification to keep them. However, I'd like to clean up a couple things. First, what are we trying to say about Chinese immigration follwing the Chinese Exclusion Act? The current phrasing makes it sound like immigration increased following its signing, but clearly the opposite is true. What about something like this (assuming I understand what you're trying to convay): Chinese immigration to Minneapolis started in the 1870s. However, it was significantly curtailed just a decade later with the enactment of the Chinese Exclusion Act. I think we can omit the President Arthur's name from the sentence.

Yeah, I had that chronology backwards. The federal ethnic ban was significant but I agree to drop it and Arthur. Instead maybe try some of this: Chinese began immigration in the 1870s. Minneapolis had no Chinatown, and Chinese businesses centered on the Gateway District and Glenwood Avenue. For more than a century beginning in 1880, Westminster Presbyterian Church gave language classes and support for Chinese Americans in Minneapolis, many of whom had fled discrimination in western states. -SusanLesch (talk) 21:08, 5 May 2023 (UTC)

Svenskbygderna, thank you for your changes. It is great to have another perspective. I will be restoring much of what you cut, and removing the unsourced statements. -SusanLesch (talk) 19:12, 8 May 2023 (UTC)

Please see what you think, Svenskbygderna. Your introduction of the non-religious group was striking and very helpful.

Other

I'd like a comment from SandyGeorgia on the religion section because she has mentioned the Demographics section flow overall. Where sources do not exist at the city level, we have worked in national, state, and metro area numbers. However note that specifics are strictly for the city. All are cited and follow Pew Research nicely. Without the country and metro level research it is impossible to make any general statements (like, the city is "majority Christian") that Svenskbygderna tried to add to make this section readable. Are we all right now? -SusanLesch (talk) 15:20, 9 May 2023 (UTC)

Another question for Sandy who may be traveling at the moment. What is the preferred way to link within references? I like to use author-link but not links for every publication and organization. This method will leave some people and things out. Is it better to have some links or better to have none?

I think we are probably ready for the next step. You have been more than patient with this article. Thank you, SandyGeorgia. -SusanLesch (talk) 20:16, 9 May 2023 (UTC)

SusanLesch real life got crazy, and I'm prepping to travel tomorrow. Once I get to the beach, and get through some ceremonies there, I will have some down time to catch up here, but I'd like to do it when I have a free block of time, rather than the piecemeal catching up here and there I've been forced to over the last few weeks. If you can hang on for another week or two, we should be close to ready to present to FAR. The last time I checked, the main chunk missing was to satisfy Magnolia677 ... has that been done? My suggestion for linking within citations is to do it whenever the link exists (see J. K. Rowling), but you don't have to do that. What you do have to do is have a consistent style, whatever it is you choose. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 21:02, 9 May 2023 (UTC)

Thank you. Take a couple weeks to enjoy life. In the meantime I will add any links that are missing in citations. Magnolia677, Sandy asked about you; do you have anything more before we move to FAR? -SusanLesch (talk) 13:58, 10 May 2023 (UTC) P.S. I am done only through ref #96. Lots of mistakes. Will pick up Thursday. -SusanLesch (talk) 04:14, 11 May 2023 (UTC) P.P.S. To be continued Friday. Up to ref #238 now. -SusanLesch (talk) 23:26, 11 May 2023 (UTC) P.P.P.S. Done. -SusanLesch (talk) 16:58, 15 May 2023 (UTC)

@SusanLesch: Let me think... Well, the article misses a couple of "firsts", such as the first bridge across the Mississippi, and the first mail-order catalog (from Sears in Minneapolis). The first European to see Niagara Falls was also the first to see Minneapolis, and Sound 80 made the first-ever digital recording (it now operates the Guinness Record "quietest place on earth"). And Brave New Workshop is the oldest sketch and comedy improve in the US.

Speaking of water, (Minne is Sioux for "water" and polis is Greek for "city")...Saint Anthony Falls is the only waterfall on the Mississippi River, and six percent of the city is covered in water, the most for any large US city (my original research).

The cuisine section has no photo (has there been discussion about photos in this section?) How about a picture of the Bundt cake, or the Honeycrisp apple, or the Milky Way chocolate bar? I mean, holy cow!! (an expression started by Halsey Hall in Minneapolis).

Most important, there's no mention of the interesting street names along Broadway here, and the plan to add Trump (I forgot the date of approval, do you know it?)

Seriously, it looks great. Thank you for your hard work! Magnolia677 (talk) 18:03, 10 May 2023 (UTC)

Magnolia677, thank you. I hope you will find sources and add any of the above if you think they should be included. -SusanLesch (talk) 18:18, 10 May 2023 (UTC)

Magnolia677, If you would step up to do the work, that would be helpful. Some of this can be done, others not likely.

• If you have a source, please add Brave New Workshop.
• I will add the "only" waterfall and the bridge.
• We already say six percent water.
• We had an RfC about a Cuisine photo. As a vegetarian who cares about climate change, promoting cheeseburgers to image will make me gag. As a master's in nutrition, I prefer no image in deference to Owamni, or, in deference to Sandy who thinks healthy food is POV, prefer a Milky Way if you have a source. Honeycrisp sounds good but the university's agriculture department is in Saint Paul. Nordic Ware (bundt cakes) started in Saint Louis Park, not Minneapolis.
• The Sound 80 claim would be difficult maybe impossible to defend.
• We used to mention Orfield Labs, who last I heard was hoping to regain the "quietest" claim (from Microsoft?). It got complicated, and I thought WP:UNDUE but it's fine if you want to add. In 2012, the anechoic chamber at Orfield Labs measured −13 decibels, and the company has applied to Guinness World Records with a −24.9 decibel measurement as of 2022.
• First mail-order catalog from Sears is probably impossible to defend.
• What are you talking about "interesting street names"?
• Niagra Falls, and Halsey Hall could be UNDUE, but go ahead if you have sources.

-SusanLesch (talk) 03:54, 11 May 2023 (UTC)

The consensual choice in a community-wide RFC was for a combined 5-8 and Matt's image in the cuisine section; doing otherwise (on the pretense that Minneapolis food is best represented as "healthy") would be POV, and suddenly switching to undiscussed options like Bundt cake or Honeycrisp apples after a community-wide RFC won't work. On the other hand, every section does not have to have an image; since no one else has complained since the RFC closed about there being no image, perhaps that's an alternative. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 11:25, 12 May 2023 (UTC)

I was joking...holy cow. And the unusual street names are every president from Washington to Bush. Magnolia677 (talk) 16:08, 12 May 2023 (UTC)

Thank you, Sandy. I got up this morning to hat my unneeded comments on that RfC, but was apparently too late on the west coast. I will abide by the RfC's outcome of course, and am happy with the alternative.

Magnolia677, I added the waterfall and bridge firsts. The other claims seem to be puffed up boosterism per Wikipedia: mail order, digital recording, anechoic chamber. Anyway thanks for your input. -SusanLesch (talk) 13:12, 12 May 2023 (UTC)

References

Just Deeds

@Magnolia677: in Minnesota, attorneys in 23 cities donate their time to remove covenants from real estate deeds. In their story about Mapping Prejudice, Bloomberg CityLab compares Minneapolis with areas nationwide: "What is exceptional about Minneapolis is its efforts to reckon with its history of discrimination." The law (PDF) allowing covenant removal passed the Minnesota legislature with one dissent. It apparently sounds "trivial" to you, and you are correct it is a symbolic gesture—one that is taken seriously in Minneapolis. -SusanLesch (talk) 15:58, 21 May 2023 (UTC)

Racial covenants and redlining

I have added an inline tag disputing the following sentence: "Racial covenants and redlining occurred simultaneously, and the effects remain today in housing, income, health care, education, employment, entertainment, and over-policing."

Racial covenants were outlawed in 1953. It is absurd to suggest that "the effects remain today"...of a racist practice outlawed 70 years prior.

Two sources have been cited:

• The first source is published by Department of Community Planning and Economic Development, and it asserts that differences in measures of success are mainly attributed to levels of education, and that "These disparities are rooted in overt and institutionalized racism that has shaped the opportunities available to multiple generations of Minneapolis residents." Again, the racist policies were outlawed 70 years ago, so the authors are surely speaking about the effects prior to 1953.
• The second source quotes someone named Keith Mayes, a UMN associate professor of African American and African Studies. Regarding racist housing, Mayes asserts that "we still see its effects today", and that "housing disparities created the educational disparities that we still live with today".

Articles become unbalanced when opinions--opinions-- are presented as objective facts. The root causes of poverty cannot simply be attributed to something outlawed 70 years prior. --Magnolia677 (talk) 18:04, 20 May 2023 (UTC)

I believe both sources are clear that the effects persist, in spite of when the covenants were outlawed. The first is not an opinion piece. Perhaps one way to sort this is to attribute the second source as opinion. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 18:54, 20 May 2023 (UTC)

Using the cherrypicked opinion of a non-notable associate professor to reach the conclusion that "the effects" of racial covenants and redlining--outlawed eight years after WWII--continue to contribute to the social pathology in Minneapolis today is sloppy. Bold conclusions about the causes of racism requires empirical and measurable research, not opinion. --Magnolia677 (talk) 20:26, 20 May 2023 (UTC)

The principal source is the City of Minneapolis. Also regarding your edit summary, "very old documents, with sometimes archaic wording." True also of the US Constitution. -SusanLesch (talk) 23:45, 20 May 2023 (UTC)

The City of Minneapolis is not an opinion piece. The secondary opinion (which is in agreement, and per Buidhe)) could be attributed if also used. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 22:18, 22 May 2023 (UTC) Done. -SusanLesch (talk) 22:16, 24 May 2023 (UTC)

This is an uninformed comment. Of course economic effects can persist after a long period of time, as research has shown in the case of redlining. (t · c) buidhe 18:06, 22 May 2023 (UTC)

@Buidhe: Spare me your insults. Of the two sources cited to support what has been presented as "fact, this source states that "This practice prevented access to mortgages in areas with Jews, African-Americans and other minorities". However, the second source makes no mention of Jewish people at all. In fact, when discussing the negative impacts of relining, the only groups still "affected" some 70 years later are racial minorities, with no mention of Jews. So...two cohorts of people were victimized by a racist policy that ended during Eisenhower's presidency, yet 70 years later, the effects of the racist policies continue to impact "housing, employment, income, and health care" of one cohort, but not the other? Magnolia677 (talk) 18:12, 25 May 2023 (UTC)

Long term effects of red lining on affected neighborhoods have been shown in a variety of research. Red lining obviously is a policy that is geographically based. The article is about the city so I expect the research we are interested in is showing effects on neighborhoods, not ethnic groups. I'm not sure why you think that this is controversial. If there is any evidence that the effects of redlining have disappeared I have not heard of it. (t · c) buidhe 22:37, 25 May 2023 (UTC)

Structural racism

@Magnolia677: You're correct the cited page from the city doesn't mention redlining and covenants but the 2040 plan most certainly does. The city prepared a PDF on that subject. I apologize, my citation was developed to support the statement that Minneapolis "has racial disparities in every aspect of society." I accept your correction to "several," however now my citation makes no sense. I put this paragraph in my sandbox and am working to improve it.

The past three years have seen a number of editors take exception with any indication that the city has problems with structural racism. I'll be happy when we can agree on an acceptable explanation. Your edits helped greatly, thank you. -SusanLesch (talk) 21:59, 26 May 2023 (UTC)

@SusanLesch: My concern is that text must absolutely be supported by sources cited, and that junk sources not be cherrypicked to support a narrative. I recently read several articles about the history of racism in Minneapolis, and even the sources that aren't junk agree this was--was--the most racist city in the US. However, citing some non-notable associate professor just because he makes the unfathomable link between 1930s housing policies and current policing issues is pretty unencyclopedic. Magnolia677 (talk) 23:03, 26 May 2023 (UTC)

@Magnolia677: you wrote this was the most racist city in the US. And what is your source? -SusanLesch (talk) 13:03, 27 May 2023 (UTC)

Pre-FAR look

@Buidhe, Hog Farm, Z1720, and Extraordinary Writ: would you all have a glance in here when you have a moment? This 2007 FA was built at a time when there was a very active Minnesota WikiProject, and just about everything in the state was featured. Most of those editors have moved on, most of the bronze stars have been lost, and SusanLesch has tried to save bronze stars without the resources MN articles once had.

This article's pre-FAR work has been going on now for two years, back to Archive 8. The article is greatly improved, but it's been slow going with what I'd call five-for-one (five steps forward then one step backward, with list after list of things to address, which SusanLesch has steadily and cheerfully plugged away at). I've grown too close to the text to see the flaws, and too weary of reading this article. The main question at this stage is should work continue here on talk, or is this getting close enough where a FAR would be the next logical step to bring in more eyes, hopefully towards a seal of approval? A thorough going-over top-to-bottom is needed now, and whether to do more of that on talk or via FAR is the question. Because the article has seen so much re-working, a FAR seal-of-approval would be better than a WP:URFA/2020 "Satisfactory" at this stage, IMO. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 00:47, 11 May 2023 (UTC)

I'll try to look later this week. I just broke my glasses so my screen time will be limited to avoid migraines until that can be fixed though. Hog Farm _Talk 01:02, 11 May 2023 (UTC)

HF

• " leaders of St. Anthony lost their bid to move the capital from Saint Paul" - I think it's worthwhile to be a little more explicit that this was the name of the community on the east side of St. Anthony Falls Done -SusanLesch (talk) 18:33, 15 May 2023 (UTC)
• Link Doc Ames? Done -SusanLesch (talk) 18:33, 15 May 2023 (UTC)
• The structural organization of the social tensions section seems a bit off to me. We go from unmarried mothers to structural racism to a gangster to antisemitism to a hospital to economic troubles to racism again to destruction of historical architecture to George Floyd. Done. Straightened out I hope. Thank you for the comment. -SusanLesch (talk) 14:16, 19 May 2023 (UTC)

Hog Farm, the history section skipped over the computer industry and the country's center for underwear. Working to fix that now. -SusanLesch (talk) 23:23, 20 May 2023 (UTC) Done. -SusanLesch (talk) 19:04, 24 May 2023 (UTC)

Thank you for drawing attention to this section. Reworked and flows better now. -SusanLesch (talk) 15:07, 6 June 2023 (UTC)

• Would it make more sense to group the racial divide in income material with the general income stuff? Done. Good idea, thanks. -SusanLesch (talk) 22:26, 15 May 2023 (UTC)
• " Christ Church Lutheran in the Longfellow neighborhood was the final work in the career of Eliel Saarinen, and has an education building designed by his son Eero" - sourcing needs revamped here; the linked page does not give these details about the church building Done I will add a quote from Millett. -SusanLesch (talk) 18:33, 15 May 2023 (UTC)
• "As of 2020, the Minneapolis–Saint Paul area was the second-largest economic center in the American Midwest behind Chicago" - how is this regional comparison being produced? I'm not seeing anything that defines a Midwest region at the source, and it's not like there's a concrete definition of Midwest. For instance, is Missouri in the Midwest? Or is it the South? (as a resident of the state, I'd argue that the line runs through the middle of it) Good grief. Must rewrite that. (As the ref says, I compared "Cook, Minneapolis, and Wayne metros" GDP.) CityLab asked Where is the Midwest? And I learned that Missouri is the only US state with two Federal Reserve Banks. You may be right, a line does run through your state. Thank you for the catch. -SusanLesch (talk) 22:16, 15 May 2023 (UTC) Done. This long-term claim was, embarrassingly, never sourced. Now removed. -SusanLesch (talk) 17:02, 16 May 2023 (UTC)
• "Other companies with offices or headquarters in Minneapolis include Accenture," - none of the following sources mention Accenture? Done -SusanLesch (talk) 18:33, 15 May 2023 (UTC)
• "the Walker Art Center began as a fabulous private art collection in the home of lumberman T. B. Walker " - is it really encyclopedic tone to describe a collection as "fabulous" Done -SusanLesch (talk) 18:33, 15 May 2023 (UTC)
• "for whom the name "museum" was too limited" - this reads like something from a PR brochure. Recommend removing this clause Done -SusanLesch (talk) 18:33, 15 May 2023 (UTC)
• "As of 2022, Alight helped 4 million people" - I don't think we should necessarily be citing a charity's reach to its own materials Done Para sourced to Fast Company. -SusanLesch (talk) 18:33, 15 May 2023 (UTC)
• "The Minneapolis Foundation administers over 1,000 charitable funds" - what indicates that this is notable? There's no bluelink, and it's sourced to a Charity Navigator page, which is basically a directory Done. Removed. If someone creates the article of course this can come back. -SusanLesch (talk) 18:33, 15 May 2023 (UTC)

I'm fairly concerned at the degree of primary sourcing to an organization's own materials that is going on in the arts and culture section. How do we know that something is actually significant unless we source it to third-party RS? I've noticed hints of boosterism in Minnesota articles before, so I think that's something to be careful with. Hog Farm _Talk 04:12, 12 May 2023 (UTC)

Thank you, Hog Farm. I'll work on all of these but it will take some time. Sorry for the word "fabulous". How would you describe this gallery? -SusanLesch (talk) 13:39, 12 May 2023 (UTC)

This is the problem I mention above at #Sourcing and due weight (deleting the entire arts section, as an example of Minnesota boosterism, should be considered). There's a tendency to mention items without indicating significance for encyclopedic content or without sourcing to independent secondary coverage. If Minneapolis is a notable literary arts center, we should have a secondary source saying that. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 11:13, 12 May 2023 (UTC)

Hog Farm and Sandy, ideas welcome. I looked at the other US city FAs (Boston, Cleveland, DC, Ann Arbor). Then I ran through the first couple pages of Minneapolis travel guides at Google Books. Honestly they seem as or more boostery than this article does. I ordered Insiders' Guide® to Twin Cities (2010) by a former Twin Cities Daily Planet editor but really these don't look great:

• A History Lover's Guide to Minneapolis
• Walking Twin Cities
• Secret Twin Cities

I have no idea about Greater Than a Tourist and Moon. Frommer's city guide is outdated (1991) and Fodor's mentions the same museums we do in its short three paras. -SusanLesch (talk) 22:27, 12 May 2023 (UTC)

Sandy, Minneapolis used to rank fourth, third or first in a literate city study (that cities loved to cite) that stopped in 2018. I removed it then because fourth place wasn't outstanding enough. Since then we have come to frown on most rankings per WP:USCITIES. That study looked at "number of bookstores, educational attainment, Internet resources, library resources, periodical publishing resources, and newspaper circulation." I think you would get in trouble saying that Minneapolis is not a notable literary arts center. This study had Minneapolis at number 3 or better for a decade (of 80-some US cities >250,000 people). Today I replaced a source with a 2008 NYT article that should suffice. -SusanLesch (talk) 22:53, 12 May 2023 (UTC)

I think we're much better off using studies like the literacy one than just listing a bunch of self-sourced examples to draw conclusions about such things. It reminds me a bit of when a distant relevant came to visit SW MO and wanted to know what all the towns were "known for": Bolivar has the college, Collins has a decent restaurant, Humansville is known for "nothing good", Osceola has a cheese place and got burnt in the war, etc. Hog Farm _Talk 00:18, 13 May 2023 (UTC)

Thank you, Hog Farm. I'm putting cuts at Talk:Minneapolis/to do that I don't think can be sourced except to themselves. -SusanLesch (talk) 15:47, 13 May 2023 (UTC)

Reporting in. The past week was spent repairing refs again. We had better get this right because, even after fifteen years, Minneapolis is given as an example at Wikipedia:WikiProject_Cities/US_Guideline#References_/_Notes. This has been a mind-numbing exercise. I have redone every reference in some cases three times. Having an example to follow helped greatly. We started with Britannica. Sandy gave me J. K. Rowling which was kept a year ago, but even so ambiguities crept in. (One pass was to unbundle everything I had carefully bundled.)

We are concerned about self-sourcing. I'm not sure that everyone else is. Looking at featured cities: DC, Boston use self-sourced schools. For schools, Cleveland (I'd say the Cleveland editors did the best job or else they had the best sources available) and Ann Arbor mixed but mostly secondary. Boston has mainly self-sourced hospitals. After going over them twice already, do I need to re-cite the whole second paragraph of colleges? What about magazines? Recent discussion is here. I hope to move to the content issues that Hog Farm found and gave us above. -SusanLesch (talk) 17:36, 15 May 2023 (UTC)

Sandy and SusanLesch - please ping me when y'all are ready for me to take a look again. Hog Farm _Talk 00:57, 17 May 2023 (UTC)

@SusanLesch: By chance I just had (but also just returned) the travel guide Moon Minneapolis-St. Paul (3rd ed.) which included a nice list of local publications/radio stations. The 2nd edition is available to peruse for free on Archive.org with a free account. —⁠Collin^{t c} 22:08, 18 May 2023 (UTC)

Thank you, Collin. Moon looks like a conscientious publication (if outdated); City Pages and Downtown Journal are closed. We need somebody to characterize the new generation of publications (Racket, Southwest Connector, Southwest Voices, Streets.mn, Dispatch). What the Web didn't kill off, the pandemic hit. Somehow, these people bravely stepped up. -SusanLesch (talk) 23:10, 18 May 2023 (UTC)

Moon had some! La Prensa de Minnesota and Vida y Sabor, Metro Lutheran, maybe the Minnesota Christian Chronicle, and American Jewish World are still alive and kicking. Thank you again, Collin. -SusanLesch (talk) 13:49, 19 May 2023 (UTC)

Minneapolis police

• https://news.bloomberglaw.com/us-law-week/minneapolis-police-abuse-went-far-beyond-george-floyd-us-finds
• https://www.washingtonpost.com/national-security/2023/06/16/minneapolis-police-report-doj/

SandyGeorgia (Talk) 15:28, 16 June 2023 (UTC)

Done. -SusanLesch (talk) 23:28, 16 June 2023 (UTC)

Julia Child Award

Magnolia677, you wrote: "This article is about a city, not some restaurant owner. The award was for his "trailblazing work with Native cuisine", which has little relevance here except to add puff up the article."

No. That "trailblazing work..." is a photo caption at the Star Tribune. The foundation's press release doesn't mention trailblazing. They do say he got the award for "his outstanding achievements as a chef, educator, author and activist in preserving and celebrating Indigenous food systems." Indigenous means what the dictionary says: "produced, growing, living, or occurring natively or naturally in a particular region or environment," or "relating to the earliest known inhabitants of a place and especially of a place that was colonized by a now-dominant group." That is a place and that place is Minneapolis. It isn't right to step in here and delete indigenous food from Minneapolis when the rest of the world is applauding Sherman. You had no objections to Gavin Kaysen coaching Team USA in the Bocuse d'Or. Please stop your disruptive editing. -SusanLesch (talk) 23:46, 14 June 2023 (UTC)

@SusanLesch: A consensus of editors at WP:USCITIES#Notable people have agreed that "If the section grows then it may be split out per WP:Summary style into a stand alone article or list (such as List of people from City, State) which can be linked to via the {{main}} template placed at the top of the section." This has already occurred on this article, and many famous people from Minneapolis are listed at List of people from Minneapolis, including four recipients of the Nobel Prize. I know you are familiar with this list. Do you feel we should now create a section in the Minneapolis article entitled "Awards won by notable people from Minneapolis"? Magnolia677 (talk) 10:41, 15 June 2023 (UTC)

The Owamni has its own article. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 15:28, 16 June 2023 (UTC)

What do you mean? Magnolia677 (talk) 21:51, 16 June 2023 (UTC)

That we don't need to go in to excess detail about individuals in this article, which is primarily about Minneapolis, not the Owamni. That we have mentioned nationally and internationally-recognized highly notable Minneapolis restaurants does not mean we have to go into detail on every award and all individuals associated with those restaurants. We can, and should, include all of that information at the restaurant article. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 22:32, 16 June 2023 (UTC)

Agree in part. We have already skipped two of Sean Sherman's James Beard awards. This is a rare honor (only nine people have ever won it) and he won because he's trying to restore indigenous cuisine in Minneapolis and is succeeding. Mr. Sherman is worthy of an extra seven words here. We give twice that many to Kaysen and the Bocuse d'Or (where Mr. Kaysen coached, and did not cook). -SusanLesch (talk) 22:57, 16 June 2023 (UTC)

I probably should have said that Sherman also has his own article, so we don't need to list all of his awards here. Same applies for Kaysen. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 23:03, 16 June 2023 (UTC)

All right, I took them out. Done. -SusanLesch (talk) 23:09, 16 June 2023 (UTC)

Thank you; I think that a satisfactory compromise. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 23:13, 16 June 2023 (UTC)

Not really a good compromise, it was only expedient. -SusanLesch (talk) 13:29, 17 June 2023 (UTC)

Your reverts

Magnolia677, you wrote in your edit summary: Jews were discriminated against by racist housing policies; this is sourced and notable; you have removed this twice, please discuss. Already addressed. Your response was I don't want to have to do a bunch of research about this.

To repeat:

• Jews are a complex special case. Jewish restrictions appear in about 1 percent of Minneapolis covenants, after that the 1919 Cohen law prohibited religious restrictions. If we're trying to be "inclusive", there is a 1919 ad barring “Chinese, Japanese, Moorish, Turkish, Negro, Mongolian, Semetic, or African blood”. When I'm in Minneapolis I'll see if I can get an image free of *$@#*! ancestry.com and Minnesota Historical Society claims.

With the help of a research librarian in Washington, I was able to find a Library of Congress archive to which the Minnesota Historical Society awarded back issues of The American Jewish World. You removed the image of outrage that led to the Cohen law of April 1919, when the state banned religious discrimination in property sales. Are you paying attention here, or maybe preoccupied? -SusanLesch (talk) 20:30, 20 June 2023 (UTC)

Magnolia677, kindly use restraint. MOS:TEXTASIMAGES says "Textual information should almost always be entered as text rather than as an image," that is, almost always. The rule goes on to say, "Any important textual information in an image should also appear in the image's alt text, caption, or other nearby text." The caption both highlights and repeats the essential text. Thank you for your forbearance. -SusanLesch (talk) 22:54, 22 June 2023 (UTC)

The section heading reads Avoid using images to convey text, and "almost always" means don't do it without a good reason, and if you get pushback, gain a consensus to support breaking the rule. Magnolia677 (talk) 23:02, 22 June 2023 (UTC)

Covenants and "health equity"

See also Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Noticeboard#Mapping Prejudice (diff)

The article makes the extraordinary claim that "The effects of racial covenants remain today in...health equity."

The source cited to support this never once uses the term "health equity". Moreover, the source states that:

Covenants fueled contemporary health inequities. For example, covenants steered investments in green amenities like trees, which determine the air temperature of neighborhoods today. In Minneapolis, areas that had covenants are on average 10 degrees cooler than neighborhoods that were redlined. Excess heat is responsible for at least 6,000 deaths each year in the United States and complicates the management of conditions like hypertension and heart disease.

In other words...because racist housing policies enacted over 70 years ago lead richer parts of the city to have more trees, and because trees lower the air temperature, and because lots and lots of people in the US die each year from excessive heat...therefore, the effects of the covenants remain.

The reliability of this entire source is tainted by such a spurious, unencyclopedic, and unscientific conclusion. Magnolia677 (talk) 17:43, 11 June 2023 (UTC)

My apologies for being dense, but I seem to be missing a step here. Your post starts out saying that the source never mentions health equity, but then you go on to include a quote from it that uses the word "health inequity" ... which is saying the same thing. ??? Nor am I seeing why you consider this spurious. Or why the passage is tagged. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 19:06, 11 June 2023 (UTC)

The source says that because racist housing policies enacted over 70 years ago enabled richer parts of the city to have more trees, and because trees lower the air temperature, and because lots of people in the US die each year from excessive heat (the source links to a science article about excessive heat, which mentions nothing of trees or Minneapolis), then therefore, the effects of the covenants remain. Fewer trees for 70 years, more heat, heat kills...inequity caused by covenants! This is the stupidest thing I've ever read. It's so stupid, in fact, that it makes the entire source look stupid, just for saying something so stupid. Magnolia677 (talk) 19:55, 11 June 2023 (UTC)

Magnolia677, As you know, we are trying to keep this as a featured article. I'd like to know what sources you wish to discredit? Would you mind reading through the whole article? -SusanLesch (talk) 21:08, 11 June 2023 (UTC)

Magnolia, addressing your comments above, these are facts not opinions: please refer to WP:UNENCYCLOPEDIC. I'm afraid calling Mapping Prejudice unscientific is worse. Here are two citations from scientific journals, one in the first quartile, one in the second.

• Egede, Leonard E., Rebekah J. Walker, Jennifer A. Campbell, Sebastian Linde, Laura C. Hawks, and Kaylin M. Burgess. “Modern Day Consequences of Historic Redlining: Finding a Path Forward.” Journal of General Internal Medicine 38, no. 6 (May 2023): 1534–37. https://doi.org/10.1007/s11606-023-08051-4.
• Hoffman, Jeremy S., Vivek Shandas, and Nicholas Pendleton. “The Effects of Historical Housing Policies on Resident Exposure to Intra-Urban Heat: A Study of 108 US Urban Areas.” Climate 8, no. 1 (January 2020): 12. https://doi.org/10.3390/cli8010012.
• This topic has been widely covered in the popular press, for example by NPR, Associated Press, Scientific American, PBS, Smithsonian magazine, and The New York Times. I am removing your flag now. -SusanLesch (talk) 21:23, 11 June 2023 (UTC)

For those interested, AP News is running a series that is still on their front page, above the NBA Finals, Birth to Death: Black Americans' health inequities. -SusanLesch (talk) 21:33, 11 June 2023 (UTC)

I still don't see the problem, particularly since the article isn't making all the statements the source is. Given all the other sources covering similar, I don't see how it needs to be attributed as opinion. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 23:04, 11 June 2023 (UTC)

Here's one from Nature Magnolia, again not about Minneapolis, but you will get the idea: -SusanLesch (talk) 02:59, 12 June 2023 (UTC)

Locke, Dexter H., Billy Hall, J. Morgan Grove, Steward T. A. Pickett, Laura A. Ogden, Carissa Aoki, Christopher G. Boone, and Jarlath P. M. O’Neil-Dunne. “Residential Housing Segregation and Urban Tree Canopy in 37 US Cities.” Npj Urban Sustainability 1, no. 1 (March 25, 2021): 1–9. https://doi.org/10.1038/s42949-021-00022-0.

The source cited in the article is not reliable. It should be removed. Magnolia677 (talk) 11:23, 12 June 2023 (UTC)

A follow up question, Magnolia677. Why did you restore sourced content that supports a theory to which you object? -SusanLesch (talk) 15:26, 12 June 2023 (UTC)

The edit I restored includes mention of Jewish residents, who were also victims of the racist housing policies. As well, "left a lasting effect on the physical characteristics of the city and the financial well-being of its residents", is much more general, and doesn't make absurd conclusions about the effects of convents 70 years after they were repealed. Magnolia677 (talk) 22:28, 12 June 2023 (UTC)

• Good, thank you, Magnolia677. Sounds like we'll be able to write a paragraph we can agree on.
• Can you give me any source or evidence that would disqualify Mapping Prejudice? They are widely-cited academics with 3,000 local volunteers. I'm trying to understand your claim they are unreliable.
• Jews are a complex special case. Jewish restrictions appear in about 1 percent of Minneapolis covenants, after that the 1919 Cohen law prohibited religious restrictions. If we're trying to be "inclusive", there is a 1919 ad barring “Chinese, Japanese, Moorish, Turkish, Negro, Mongolian, Semetic, or African blood”. When I'm in Minneapolis I'll see if I can get an image free of *$@#*! ancestry.com and Minnesota Historical Society claims.
• Do you see how covenants are related to, e.g. preceded redlining? -SusanLesch (talk) 14:12, 13 June 2023 (UTC)

I don't want to have to do a bunch of research about this. The source in question is unreliable because it makes an almost impossible to prove statement--that racist policies ended 70 years ago are still responsible for health inequities--and attempts to "prove" this with an example so wildly stupid, that it calls into question the reliability of the entire source. I've been to Minneapolis and I've met some of the most clear-thinking and intelligent people you could meet anywhere, so I highly doubt 3,000 volunteers contributed to that whopper. Perhaps we should take this to WP:RSN. Magnolia677 (talk) 17:22, 14 June 2023 (UTC)

Magnolia677, submitted Mapping Prejudice at RSN. Correction, this project has 6,000 volunteers. -SusanLesch (talk) 20:49, 14 June 2023 (UTC)

Correction, 7,900 volunteers now. For our archive, consensus is Mapping Prejudice is a reliable source per WP:RSN. -SusanLesch (talk) 17:50, 24 June 2023 (UTC)

Theodore Wirth

Hi, Thesavagenorwegian. First thank you for your interest. Because your edit pointed out a weakness in mine, I have added a quote from the offline book source, and am sure the article is better for it. I saw your Association of Inclusionists user box so maybe you can help me understand. Now that we have a quote, can you please explain what purpose a second source offers this article? Can you remove it? I don't think we need to include a biography of every person we mention, especially those with Wikipedia articles. I grew up in Minneapolis, and heard there that Theodore Wirth was responsible for the parks. That turns out to be largely untrue (and now I wonder if I should expand the sentence to dispel that idea). Maybe you will have other suggestions, which are most welcome. Best wishes. -SusanLesch (talk) 13:34, 28 July 2023 (UTC)

I'm still finishing this, but City of Parks tells the story that Wirth, and the engineers he hired, dredged six million cubic yards of lakes (Isles, Cedar, Hiawatha, Nokomis, Powderhorn) or enough to fill five football fields to the height of the IDS tower. Then because cars were new, he could use that material to pave and widen all the parkways, and he could level playing fields. The book calls him "Theodore Wirth, Earth Mover." -SusanLesch (talk) 16:09, 28 July 2023 (UTC)

Sorry but three days later, I am going ahead with removing the second source. Rather than introduce negative commentary, balancing Mr. Wirth with other people is one way to help. Here's the full book quote, which I shortened. Today, many Minneapolitans think of Wirth as the man who created the Minneapolis park system. In fact, he did not—but he greatly improved it. He inherited a park system that already included most of the shores of the city's lakes, creek and river. The lakeshores that were not yet owned by the park board were in various stages of acquisition or had been ardently promoted for more than a decade before his arrival.... Although Wirth is often given credit for this expansion of the park system, he was a reluctant supporter of some of the new acquisitions. Wirth said when he arrived in Minneapolis that the city already had enough park land. The source of this quote is the philanthropic arm of the Minneapolis park board, and is thus unlikely to be inaccurate (the board's commissioners reviewed it and submitted their changes). -SusanLesch (talk) 17:25, 31 July 2023 (UTC)

Hello! The crux of my edit is the fact that online sources are in general preferable to offline ones. Quotation is a major step in the way of remedying that issue, though of course those wishing to continue reading will have to find a print copy. My other qualm is the fact that the source isn't in my view contradicting the other sources. "Developing" and "Masterminding" the park system is not synonymous with "creating" the park system. One can both improve and develop the park system without having created it. This is a semantics issue though, more clarity is of course better.

Your use of quotation from print sources has remedied the issue. I just don't want this bio to be lost completely, especially as it's an archived link. Very unfindable indeed. To your point, it belongs on Theodore Wirth, not here. Happy editing! TheSavageNorwegian 16:33, 2 August 2023 (UTC)

Good idea. Added a "Further reading" section to Theodore Wirth. Thanks. -SusanLesch (talk) 22:04, 2 August 2023 (UTC)

Re The crux of my edit is the fact that online sources are in general preferable to offline ones. I'm not sure where that is coming from; it leaves out "all other things being equal". In FAs, what matters is that the highest quality sources are used, whether off or online. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 14:54, 16 August 2023 (UTC)

It's August

@SandyGeorgia: Can we please start a FAR this week? We've worked on this for three years, and I would like to wrap this up. I am home now with my books. I can't explain the absence of the other Minnesota editors. (Elkman is overdue but busy at work.)

• Added to the parks section due to a visitor's comment and a new source.
• Enhanced the Guthrie Theater, and wonder about your comment, "I've spent my life in theatre". In what capacity?

-SusanLesch (talk) 20:17, 7 August 2023 (UTC)

SusanLesch if we are ready to launch the FAR, how about the following? Each nominator is limited to one FAR per week, and no more than five on the page at once, so I am always at my limit, and would prefer you be the signer on the FAR. I can do all the backwork, prepare the nom statement etc in sandbox, set up the page, do the notifications, etc, but once I do that, would you mind being the person to submit the FAR? Let me know as we will need to coordinate the timing. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 14:58, 16 August 2023 (UTC)

@SandyGeorgia: yes I would be happy to. Per WP:FAR, I have to "specify the featured article criteria that are at issue and should propose remedies". As far as I know we've addressed most everything over the past years. So yes, if you will write that statement, we're in business. Thank you. -SusanLesch (talk) 15:50, 16 August 2023 (UTC)

Susan, I have to go out shortly; I will prepare the nomination statement in sandbox (either in the next hour or after I get home), and ping you so you can sign, after which I'll do the rest of the work. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 20:53, 16 August 2023 (UTC)

End of lumbering

Magnolia677, I reverted your edit because it reduced the prose to one cause and effect of "dwindling logs" without explaining why that happened. Lass is a good source for lumbermen depleting Minnesota's forests and I'll look again tomorrow for more support for this one sentence. Thank you. -SusanLesch (talk) 02:52, 27 August 2023 (UTC)

@SusanLesch: I looked through the source cited, and did not see that it was only "white" pine being shipped to Minneapolis. Also, describing the forests as being "emptied" is inaccurate; "denuded" or "over harvested" would be more appropriate. Magnolia677 (talk) 10:18, 27 August 2023 (UTC)

If we are talking "appropriate" I would avoid the people-centric word harvest. I propose "cleared" or Lass's word "leveled."

I don't understand your comment. Are you arguing that Minneapolis lumbermen worked some other type of tree? "White" pine was the treasure these men sought, from New England (where white pine became masts for the Royal Navy) through to Minnesota and on to the Pacific Northwest. The previous sentence says several cities of the midwest were built with "white" pine. Kane's book is about flour milling, hydroelectricity, and the story of William de Barre. You're right she doesn't use the adjective white, but she cites Agnes Larson's book and the back cover says "millions of white pine logs." Dr. Lass makes this explicit, "In the eyes of the lumberman, the white pine was without fault." -SusanLesch (talk) 15:59, 27 August 2023 (UTC)

@SusanLesch: You wrote, "As lumbermen emptied the state's white pine forests", and sourced it from page 180 of this book. However, I was not able to find "white" pine on that page (did I miss it?) Moreover, that book mentions several species of tree that were harvested in Minnesota. In other words, if the source you are citing does not specifically support your edit--and the edit has been challenged--then you need to remove the word. As well, it is important that we use words that are accurate and encyclopedic, and "cleared", "leveled", and the unnecessarily dramatic "emptied", do not accurately describe the condition of the forest within the context of the entire sentence: that the trees were removed to such an extent that the lumber industry collapsed for lack of inventory. The phrase "depleting forests" is used in the first paragraph of that section, and Lass uses "denuded" multiple times to describe what occurred (also...these words sound way more "tree-centric" than "people-centric"). Magnolia677 (talk) 17:08, 27 August 2023 (UTC)

Yes you did miss it, page 180 says "white pine" about three times. Please give page numbers for the "several species," and I will rethink this. -SusanLesch (talk) 18:02, 27 August 2023 (UTC)

@SusanLesch: While you're rethinking, please comment on an alternative to "emptied". Magnolia677 (talk) 18:45, 27 August 2023 (UTC)

Would "depleted" be an acceptable compromise for both of y'all? Hog Farm _Talk 18:50, 27 August 2023 (UTC)

Two thumbs up to "depleted". Magnolia677 (talk) 18:59, 27 August 2023 (UTC)

We use "depleted" to describe Maine's forests. I chose cleared. Feel free to change that. I liked the repetition and changed to "depleted". Thank you, Hog Farm and Magnolia.

Magnolia we need page numbers, please? -SusanLesch (talk) 21:23, 27 August 2023 (UTC)

Citations

SandyGeorgia, acting on your advice, I think the citations are internally consistent. Here are my notes:

• locations were removed (because we only had a few)
• languages were removed (same reasoning)
• wikilink all authors with articles
• wikilink all journals and publishers with articles
• no idea if Hispanic American Center for Economic Research is the same HACER as Hispanic Advocacy and Community Empowerment through Research (I decided not)

If they look okay, we're ready for wider review. -SusanLesch (talk) 17:57, 25 May 2023 (UTC)

SandyGeorgia whenever you have time can you please take another look before we ping Hog Farm? Note on scheduling: I will be away from my books for the month of July, but available for editing. Thank you. -SusanLesch (talk) 19:19, 1 June 2023 (UTC)

I can see you are busy. So I'm taking the opportunity to read American City: A Rank-and-file History to learn enough to expand coverage of the 1934 teamsters' strike by a sentence or two. -SusanLesch (talk) 22:30, 6 June 2023 (UTC) Done. -SusanLesch (talk) 22:40, 10 June 2023 (UTC)

SusanLesch if you are going to be away from your books for the month of July, we should not contemplate launching the FAR until after that. The article has been considerably improved and is probably out of the territory where it would lose FA status, so there is no need to rush to FAR. When we do go to FAR, we wouldn't want to be in a position of not being able to respond to questions about sources, and FAR takes a month at minimum.

Yes, my editing time has become difficult because of IRL issues, and I hope those will settle soon. There's a light at the end of the tunnel that may not be a trainwreck. In the interim, I am hoping that Magnolia677 will do their complete read-through and identify anything else they are concerned about, so we can be sure we've gotten everything we can to avoid a convoluted FAR. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 13:47, 9 June 2023 (UTC)

SandyGeorgia, thank you for looking here. I will be home August 6th and look forward to Wikipedia keeping a recent Geographical location as featured. We really need one. Magnolia677, your expertise will help us continue to be a model for WP:USCITIES. Can you please take a look? Thank you.

P.S. Hog Farm, if you are able to take a look, we have some time to make more improvements. -SusanLesch (talk) 02:28, 11 June 2023 (UTC)′

Coming week will be very busy for me. I ought to be able to get to this before August 6, but I don't know when I'll have the time to take a look. Hog Farm _Talk 02:49, 11 June 2023 (UTC)

Another break to read another book, thank you. Lucile Kane's The Falls of St. Anthony looks perfect to complete preservation in the History section. -SusanLesch (talk) 17:53, 24 June 2023 (UTC)

I'm not about to argue with User:Citation bot, but this pass does not make sense given the advice here. I patiently changed every cite news to "work" and now the bot wants "newspaper". No way am I going through this all again. -SusanLesch (talk) 18:00, 28 August 2023 (UTC)

Pushpin map

@636Buster: Hi. Thank you for improving the map. To explain my revert, please see the request at FAR: I know that newer style of interactive map has its benefits, but is there any way to also show the reader at a glance where Minneapolis is located in the country, rather than making them get into the interactive map, fiddle with the zoom system which is kinda balky on mobile, and then try to figure out that information?. My apologies for the late reply, busy IRL. Hope this explains. Best wishes, SusanLesch (talk) 18:20, 11 September 2023 (UTC)

@SusanLesch, totally understood! Thanks for taking the time to link the FAR. I agree with the point regarding the clunkiness of the interactive map. 636Buster (talk) 22:59, 11 September 2023 (UTC)

Restored your map relief. It looks good on the US. -SusanLesch (talk) 16:42, 14 September 2023 (UTC)

Content dispute over notable person

User:SusanLesch continues to revert efforts to remove the following:

"Minneapolis resident and author Dan Buettner was host of the Netflix docuseries Live to 100: Secrets of the Blue Zones".

My concerns with this edit are:

• The edit has been added to the "media" section, yet none of the content meets the criteria at WP:USCITIES#Media, and the edit has absolutely nothing to do with media in Minneapolis. In fact, "Live to 100: Secrets of the Blue Zones" isn't even an article; it redirects to List of ended Netflix original programming, where the word "Minneapolis" is mentioned exactly zero times.
• This appears to be an good-faith attempt to "puff up" the article with a promo for a local personality (who--according to this edit--has participated in something non-notable, and which has absolutely nothing to do with Minneapolis). Please note...the article already has a specific place for "notable people", see List of people from Minneapolis.

The input of others would be appreciated.

References

Magnolia677 (talk) 22:44, 30 September 2023 (UTC)

They shouldn't be listed here, not notable, not relevant to an article about Minneapolis either.  oncamera  _{(talk page)} 01:49, 1 October 2023 (UTC)

I have no horse in this race. Blue Zones have had questionable scientific reception from Science-Based Medicine, an outfit I subscribe to generally. But the jury is still out because Blue Zones' loudest critic never published his 2019 preprint in a journal. That's been four years.

Magnolia677, you gave us two rounds of reverts based on notability. I responded directly to your comments and that's been resolved. Now you've changed your argument to content dispute, puffery, and WP:USCITIES#Media guidelines. To quote those guidelines: If any major motion pictures, television shows, or syndicated radio broadcasts were filmed/recorded or originated in the city, this would probably be a good place to put that information. Thus the show belongs in Media. -SusanLesch (talk) 02:26, 1 October 2023 (UTC)

@SusanLesch: This source says that "Live to 100: Secrets of the Blue Zones" is a four-part documentary, indicating it does not meet the criteria for inclusion. Moreover, the word "Minneapolis" is mentioned at that source, and at this source, approximately zero times. Are you suggesting that a documentary with no content related to Minneapolis, should be included in the media section only because the author lives here? Magnolia677 (talk) 13:18, 1 October 2023 (UTC)

Yes, living and working in a place is the meaning of "originate". Nobody but you would disqualify documentaries. Where do you get this stuff? You should be proud of your .1 million edits removing bad edits, but your opinions sometimes overtake Wikipedia guidelines.

Public health and nutrition are a niche without a WikiProject: generally editors don't care. Your multi-pronged, shifting attack sounds like WP:IDONTLIKEIT. -SusanLesch (talk) 14:27, 1 October 2023 (UTC)

You're getting awfully close to making it WP:ABP, instead of addressing actual arguments. glman (talk) 14:44, 1 October 2023 (UTC)

Excuse me, Glman, I don't see that anybody else here raised Harriet Hall's objection, or quoted WP:USCITIES, or alluded to Saul Newman who wrote but never published a non-peer-reviewed critique. -SusanLesch (talk) 15:13, 1 October 2023 (UTC)

Agreed. This is not filmed in Minneapolis and does not relate to the city; it appears the only connection is the host. Per WP:USCITIES#Media it does not belong here. glman (talk) 14:41, 1 October 2023 (UTC)

Wonderful, !votes decides it. I don't understand where you guys come out of the woodwork, but haven't contributed a word at FAR where people are needed. All are welcome. -SusanLesch (talk) 14:55, 1 October 2023 (UTC)

For our archive, this article about Blue Zones and their critics appears to be written by a real journalist.

P.S. DeWitt says that Buettner sold Blue Zones to Adventist Health in 2020.

References

New documentary

A new documentary, The Fall of Minneapolis, is getting a lot of media attention (it's free to watch online). This may be a source of content going forward. Magnolia677 (talk) 21:18, 20 November 2023 (UTC)

Yes, absolutely. @Magnolia677: Please run Alpha News by WP:RSN, and we could add them to Media. I am always in favor of more local media.

MPR raised questions about Alpha News that that noticeboard can answer. -SusanLesch (talk) 16:20, 21 November 2023 (UTC)

There has been resistance lately at RSN to discussions unless there is a previous dispute, and for the purposes here, I don't think there is a dispute. Featured articles have a requirement for high-quality sources, and based on the MPR questions raised, this would be unlikely to be a usable source for a Featured article. So, I see no dispute. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 16:26, 21 November 2023 (UTC)

That said, I'm unsure this kind of source would even be used at Murder of George Floyd or George Floyd, so whether to include this might be raised at those articles. Including it here would also seem to get in to UNDUE content for this article. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 16:31, 21 November 2023 (UTC)

Hit a bump

Very sorry, I made one disastrous edit (meant only to change a single word). After starting to ask for help at the Village Pump I realized my error. Taking the rest of the night off. -SusanLesch (talk) 01:06, 27 November 2023 (UTC)

It's been an enormous undertaking; enjoy your evening! SandyGeorgia (Talk) 01:10, 27 November 2023 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 20 January 2024

I request that the first two lead sentences for Minneapolis be changed as follows in accordance to consistency and the standard formatting of the most populous cities in their respective states (E.g. Los Angeles, Chicago, Houston, Phoenix, etc):

Minneapolis (/ˌmɪniˈæpəlɪs/ MIN-ee-AP-ə-lis), officially the City of Minneapolis, is the most populous city in the U.S. state of Minnesota and the county seat of Hennepin County. As of the 2020 census, the population was 429,954. Cleter (talk) 00:28, 20 January 2024 (UTC)

Not done - The current formatting seems to be clearer and more concise. glman (talk) 00:44, 20 January 2024 (UTC)

Oh, oh it SEEMS to be clearer and more concise, okay. Yeah well I guess that’s the way the cookie crumbles. After all, you have more experience with this sort of stuff. Cleter (talk) 01:31, 20 January 2024 (UTC)

I apologize for my sarcasm Cleter (talk) 02:00, 21 January 2024 (UTC)

Oppose - Not neccesary in my opinion. Its better off if the articles arent strictly uniform for this kind of stuff, I don't believe most readers/editors care enough to do so.

File:WaRei.png WeaponizingArchitecture | scream at me File:WaRei.png 20:01, 24 January 2024 (UTC)

Comment - Might I suggest a compromise? We could potentially combine elements from both formats while also retaining the clarity that the current format offers. For example, we could start with Cleter's proposed format but slightly modify it. Here's a potential revision:

'Minneapolis (/ˌmɪniˈæpəlɪs/), officially the City of Minneapolis, is the most populous city in the U.S. state of Minnesota and the county seat of Hennepin County. As of the 2020 census, its population is 429,954. --Svenskbygderna (talk) 19:57, 20 January 2024 (UTC)

A request please that editors not use "big cities" as a model. Only Featured Articles, of which there are only a few cities (Cleveland, Washington, DC, Boston, Ann Arbor, Michigan). -SusanLesch (talk) 20:17, 20 January 2024 (UTC)

Very well, thank you for letting me know. Cleter (talk) 01:59, 21 January 2024 (UTC)

. Support - Hey yeah that works, thanks Svenskbygderna! Yeah I can roll with that; in fact if that goes through, I might change cities with past tense population statistics to reflect this change. Cleter (talk) 01:59, 21 January 2024 (UTC)

I don't think it makes sense to include this in the first sentence. It flows better in the second with the population, and other featured city articles do it that way as well. glman (talk) 19:49, 24 January 2024 (UTC)

Could you please provide examples of such featured city articles? I am suggesting that the most populous city in a state deserves its respective formatting, I understand if other articles aren’t on the top of a state’s population. Cleter (talk) 19:58, 24 January 2024 (UTC)

SusanLesch lists them one comment above your support. Why is it better to place this in the first sentence rather than the second? Why does it take precedence over the location? glman (talk) 20:06, 24 January 2024 (UTC)

Cleveland and Ann Arbor are not the most populous cities in their respective states (with D.C. not even being in a state). Boston’s example only strengthens my point. Cleter (talk) 21:33, 24 January 2024 (UTC)

I don't understand your comment. Cleveland is perhaps the best maintained American city article on Wikipedia. -SusanLesch (talk) 23:30, 24 January 2024 (UTC)

What I'm trying to say is: "Cleaveland, Ann Arbon, and Washington D.C. cannot be used as examples in this case. We can use Boston's example to change Minneapolis's lead sentence to what I proposed." Cleter (talk) 23:49, 24 January 2024 (UTC)

Somewhat off-topic: does including "officially the City of Minneapolis" bring value here? It's substantially similar to the article name, and forces the words "city" and "Minneapolis" to be repeated. It feels like something that should be reserved for the history section or a new "name" section. We removed it from Milwaukee for similar reasons. See MOS:LEADALT. (Regardless, it also needs a citation to support that it's the official name. The current citation only supports the census' usage of the phrase.) Ed ^{[talk] [OMT]} 19:03, 24 January 2024 (UTC)

Ed, I don't understand your comment. Milwaukee is not a featured article. I added a source for you anyway, even though it borders on WP:OVERCITE. -SusanLesch (talk) 23:30, 24 January 2024 (UTC)

Ed's comment is about the inclusion of the phrase "officially the City of Minneapolis" in the lead section of an article. Ed feels that this phrase may not add value to the lead section because it is similar to the article's name and may lead to unnecessary repetition of words. He suggests that such information could be better placed in the history section or a new section specifically dedicated to the name. Ed also points out that the phrase needs a citation to support its inclusion as the official name. He refers to the Manual of Style MOS:LEADALT to support his argument. Cleter (talk) 23:56, 24 January 2024 (UTC)

@SusanLesch He's discussing removing "City of Minneapolis" entirely. The lead already says "Minneapolis is a city" which is simply restated in sharing the official name. It doesn't make sense to restate unless the official name differs. Several city pages omit the restating, including Ann Arbor. glman (talk) 00:46, 25 January 2024 (UTC)

Woah, entirely? Gee what if we put it on the history section? Cleter (talk) 03:08, 25 January 2024 (UTC)

I'm pro-removing it. It repeats what can easily be gleaned from the text. It only makes sense when the official name deviates from what can be assumed normally. glman (talk) 19:48, 24 January 2024 (UTC)

If that’s off topic, why not create a talk page regarding the matter? I support the move of the official name to another section to avoid repetition and clutter in the lead sentence. Cleter (talk) 20:00, 24 January 2024 (UTC)

This section is discussing the lead sentence, so I figured it fit best here even though it differed from the OP's focus. Ed ^{[talk] [OMT]} 03:23, 25 January 2024 (UTC)

Yeah I understand now. Thanks, but could we continue the discussion I requested in the first place? Cleter (talk) 16:16, 25 January 2024 (UTC)

If the concern is clutter, we could also consider moving pronunciation to a footnote, per MOS:PRONPLACEMENT. Nikkimaria (talk) 02:09, 25 January 2024 (UTC)

I would also support this. Anything that makes it easier to get a reader past the first sentence is a positive, in my book. Ed ^{[talk] [OMT]} 03:23, 25 January 2024 (UTC)

Would that by any chance include my proposed change to make it “the most populous city in the U.S. state of Minnesota? :D Cleter (talk) 03:45, 25 January 2024 (UTC)

Cleter, I have no opinion at this time on your proposal. Someone else is working on the lead and I differ to him.

Thank you for pulling MOS:PRONPLACEMENT out of a hat. I sign on with with Ed and Nikkimaria. -SusanLesch (talk) 14:34, 25 January 2024 (UTC)

Revival of previous discussion regarding the lead

I (once again) request that the first two lead sentences for Minneapolis be changed as follows in accordance to consistency and the standard formatting of the most populous cities in their respective states (E.g. Los Angeles, Chicago, Houston, Boston ((featured)), etc):

Minneapolis, officially the City of Minneapolis, is a city in the state of Minnesota and the county seat of Hennepin County. As of the 2020 census the population was 429,954, making it the state's most populous city. 🅲🅻🅴🆃🅴🆁 (a word) 21:26, 8 February 2024 (UTC)

Isn't that the current lead you have pasted there? And there are no "standards" that must be followed based off how other articles are written.  oncamera  _{(talk page)} 22:51, 8 February 2024 (UTC)

Whoops wrong one 🅲🅻🅴🆃🅴🆁 (a word) 23:16, 8 February 2024 (UTC)

Let me try that again 🅲🅻🅴🆃🅴🆁 (a word) 23:16, 8 February 2024 (UTC)

Revival of previous discussion regarding the lead

I (once again) request that the first two lead sentences for Minneapolis be changed as follows in accordance to consistency and the standard formatting of the most populous cities in their respective states (E.g. Los Angeles, Chicago, Houston, Boston ((featured)), etc):

Minneapolis (/ˌmɪniˈæpəlɪs/ ^ⓘ MIN-ee-AP-ə-lis), officially the City of Minneapolis, is the most populous city in the U.S. state of Minnesota and the county seat of Hennepin County. As of the 2020 census, the population was 429,954. Cleter (talk) 00:28, 20 January 2024 (UTC)

First, don't delete my comments when making edits to your comments, especially when I pointed out there's no "standard" that must be followed when writing the lead sentence. Secondly, I disagree with your version, it's not an improvement: the current version that puts "most populous city" after the population number is clearer and better organized when reading.  oncamera  _{(talk page)} 00:02, 9 February 2024 (UTC)

Ok I apologize for deleting your comment (which you can revert anyways). there's no "standard" that must be followed when writing the lead sentence yeah I don't believe in a standard either, but that doesn't mean one shouldn't seek improvements to an existing version (after all, that's the point of Wikipedia). Secondly, just how is it better organized? 🅲🅻🅴🆃🅴🆁 (a word) 00:09, 9 February 2024 (UTC)

I shouldn't have to revert to keep my comments on a talkpage discussion. And the current version avoids the long run-on opening sentence in your version. You don't need to fit everything into one sentence, especially when the following sentence is about the population; that's logically where the "most populous city" fact should be included.  oncamera  _{(talk page)} 00:16, 9 February 2024 (UTC)

@Oncamera I agree. glman (talk) 00:25, 9 February 2024 (UTC)

Oh hey @glman! Long time no see, huh? (Last time I saw you you ghosted 15 days ago in a topic that needed consensus.) 🅲🅻🅴🆃🅴🆁 (a word) 00:31, 9 February 2024 (UTC)

Cleter, you've been reverted a number of times as well and there was no one who agreed with your version in the previous discussion: you'll have to accept you may not actually change consensus and refrain from making personal attacks against editors who do not agree with you.  oncamera  _{(talk page)} 00:41, 9 February 2024 (UTC)

@Oncamera - Agreed. I did not "ghost", but provided my perspective and was done. I still feel that the current format is best, despite the work the user has done to many other articles to "make them better" glman (talk) 15:52, 10 February 2024 (UTC)

@Oncamera I disagree with your assessment of the lead sentence structure. Combining the information into one sentence is a common and efficient approach in Wikipedia articles for major cities. It provides a clear and concise introduction, which is consistent with the style used in similar entries. 🅲🅻🅴🆃🅴🆁 (a word) 00:33, 9 February 2024 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 29 February 2024

I saw some edits over this weather box, but I do see some changes being needed. Last Monday, Minneapolis recorded a new record high for the month of February (65 F)

Climate data for Minneapolis–Saint Paul International Airport, Minnesota (1991–2020 normals, extremes 1872–present)
Month	Jan	Feb	Mar	Apr	May	Jun	Jul	Aug	Sep	Oct	Nov	Dec	Year
Record high °F (°C)	58 (14)	65 (18)	83 (28)	95 (35)	106 (41)	104 (40)	108 (42)	103 (39)	104 (40)	92 (33)	77 (25)	68 (20)	108 (42)
Mean maximum °F (°C)	42.5 (5.8)	46.7 (8.2)	64.7 (18.2)	79.7 (26.5)	88.7 (31.5)	93.3 (34.1)	94.4 (34.7)	91.7 (33.2)	88.3 (31.3)	80.1 (26.7)	62.1 (16.7)	47.1 (8.4)	96.4 (35.8)
Mean daily maximum °F (°C)	23.6 (−4.7)	28.5 (−1.9)	41.7 (5.4)	56.6 (13.7)	69.2 (20.7)	79.0 (26.1)	83.4 (28.6)	80.7 (27.1)	72.9 (22.7)	58.1 (14.5)	41.9 (5.5)	28.8 (−1.8)	55.4 (13.0)
Daily mean °F (°C)	16.2 (−8.8)	20.6 (−6.3)	33.3 (0.7)	47.1 (8.4)	59.5 (15.3)	69.7 (20.9)	74.3 (23.5)	71.8 (22.1)	63.5 (17.5)	49.5 (9.7)	34.8 (1.6)	22.0 (−5.6)	46.9 (8.3)
Mean daily minimum °F (°C)	8.8 (−12.9)	12.7 (−10.7)	24.9 (−3.9)	37.5 (3.1)	49.9 (9.9)	60.4 (15.8)	65.3 (18.5)	62.8 (17.1)	54.2 (12.3)	40.9 (4.9)	27.7 (−2.4)	15.2 (−9.3)	38.4 (3.6)
Mean minimum °F (°C)	−14.7 (−25.9)	−8 (−22)	2.7 (−16.3)	21.9 (−5.6)	35.7 (2.1)	47.3 (8.5)	54.5 (12.5)	52.3 (11.3)	38.2 (3.4)	26.0 (−3.3)	9.2 (−12.7)	−7.1 (−21.7)	−16.9 (−27.2)
Record low °F (°C)	−41 (−41)	−33 (−36)	−32 (−36)	2 (−17)	18 (−8)	34 (1)	43 (6)	39 (4)	26 (−3)	10 (−12)	−25 (−32)	−39 (−39)	−41 (−41)
Average precipitation inches (mm)	0.89 (23)	0.87 (22)	1.68 (43)	2.91 (74)	3.91 (99)	4.58 (116)	4.06 (103)	4.34 (110)	3.02 (77)	2.58 (66)	1.61 (41)	1.17 (30)	31.62 (803)
Average snowfall inches (cm)	11.0 (28)	9.5 (24)	8.2 (21)	3.5 (8.9)	0.0 (0.0)	0.0 (0.0)	0.0 (0.0)	0.0 (0.0)	0.0 (0.0)	0.8 (2.0)	6.8 (17)	11.4 (29)	51.2 (130)
Average precipitation days (≥ 0.01 in)	9.6	7.8	9.0	11.2	12.4	11.8	10.4	9.8	9.3	9.5	8.3	9.7	118.8
Average snowy days (≥ 0.1 in)	9.3	7.3	5.2	2.4	0.1	0.0	0.0	0.0	0.0	0.6	4.5	8.8	38.2
Average relative humidity (%)	69.9	69.5	67.4	60.3	60.4	63.8	64.8	67.9	70.7	68.3	72.6	74.1	67.5
Average dew point °F (°C)	4.1 (−15.5)	9.5 (−12.5)	20.7 (−6.3)	31.6 (−0.2)	43.5 (6.4)	54.7 (12.6)	60.1 (15.6)	58.3 (14.6)	49.8 (9.9)	37.9 (3.3)	25.0 (−3.9)	11.1 (−11.6)	33.9 (1.0)
Mean monthly sunshine hours	156.7	178.3	217.5	242.1	295.2	321.9	350.5	307.2	233.2	181.0	112.8	114.3	2,710.7
Percent possible sunshine	55	61	59	60	64	69	74	71	62	53	39	42	59
Average ultraviolet index	1	2	3	5	7	8	8	7	5	3	2	1	4
Source 1: NOAA (relative humidity, dew point and sun 1961–1990)
Source 2: Weather Atlas (UV)

Solids02 (talk) 06:44, 29 February 2024 (UTC)

Thank you for the correction. I think this is only the second time someone has informed us of a broken weather record in the last 15 years. -SusanLesch (talk) 17:18, 29 February 2024 (UTC)

Looks good to me. Record values can obviously be broken at any time so the table should be updated if that happens. Sadly climate change is only going to make that more frequent.

The reason for the editing changes is discussed in the section above, but should be more or less resolved now. Timothy2b (talk) 10:37, 29 February 2024 (UTC)

References

Climate

Hi, Timothy2b. The old climate data is outdated, and based on averages ending in 1990. I restored current NOWData (1873 to 2023). -SusanLesch (talk) 13:42, 27 February 2024 (UTC)

Yea, I made sure to use the climate average based on 1873 to present. ♫ Hurricanehink (talk) 18:43, 28 February 2024 (UTC)

Timothy2b, instead of edit warring would you mind talking this though on this talk page/ "Standard" 2020 averages are outdated. -SusanLesch (talk) 19:19, 28 February 2024 (UTC)

• Timothy says there is a "standard for all locations". Hurricane tells me Wikipedia climate is not codified.
• Which is it? Minneapolis is a prototype featured article referred to as a model at WP:USCITIES. We need to get this right. Then editors from other cities won't be swinging in the wind. -SusanLesch (talk) 20:11, 28 February 2024 (UTC)

Hi, so there were a couple of problems with the data you put in. The climate normals, which is the period from which the values (be it temperatures, precipitation, etc) are averaged is currently 1991-2020. When it comes to climate, 30-year periods are the ones used, not a whole 150-year period as would be the case if using data from 1873-today. Normally what is done is that the average values, such as the average temperatures are taken from the most recent full 30-year period, which in this case is 1991-2020, while record values, such as each month's record high or low, are taken for that whole period (such as 1873-2023/24 in this case). I noticed also that you put the wrong averages in the wrong places. The NOAA data site can be quite tricky to navigate, and it is difficult to differentiate which is what, so I don't at all blame you for mixing this up. Just for reference, the average high is found by first clicking on "Monthly summarized data" for the station, then writing the time period (in this case 1991-2020), then under "Variable" select "Max temp", and under "Summary" select "Mean". After that hit "Go", and a window will pop up. Scroll down to the bottom of it and next to "Mean" you will find the average high temperature for each month. If you have any other questions, feel free to ask! :)

Still, the data that is in the current climate table is the most up-to-date data there is for a whole 30-year period, and the values have been updated based on the sources listed. Only relative humidity, dew points, and sunshine is based on 1961-1990, since no more recent data is available. The rest of it, including temperatures and precipitation, is all from 1991-2020. Therefore, it does not need editing, and is in the most revised state it can be until the 2001-2030 data comes (which will obviously be quite a while). Timothy2b (talk) 00:32, 29 February 2024 (UTC)

Thank you. When you say "When it comes to climate, 30-year periods are the ones used", who says that? We are waiting for 2030 according to who? Sorry I have limited availability this week but will try to stay current on this discussion. -SusanLesch (talk) 04:14, 29 February 2024 (UTC)

Here is NOAA's own description of it: https://www.ncei.noaa.gov/products/land-based-station/us-climate-normals. Wikipedia also apparently has its own brief article on it called Climatological normal.

It isn't necessarily wrong to have older data, so some places use 1981-2010 as theirs when there is so more recent data, but in the spirit of keeping things as up to date as possible 1991-2020 is the norm if available. What I meant with 2030 was only that since these normals are updated every 10 years, the next set of climate normals will be 2001-2030. Obviously we are still many years from this though.

Something I forgot to mention was that one thing that could at times need updating is the record high or low for specific months, as these do not reflect any sort of average value and can be broken at any point.

If you are interested in climate normals and how to read the data NOAA has on their website, I could write up a guide of sorts on where to find each set of values. I know I struggled quite a bit in figuring everything out to begin with.

I am also not the quickest at replying so don't stress about it. Timothy2b (talk) 10:26, 29 February 2024 (UTC)

Hi guys. I need to hear from Hurricane and the WikiProject before deciding. Today I wrote to the NWS Twin Cities office. They passed on my question this morning and I'm waiting for an answer. Best wishes. -SusanLesch (talk) 17:11, 29 February 2024 (UTC)

Before deciding what? And what question did you ask them? Just wondering. Timothy2b (talk) 17:50, 29 February 2024 (UTC)

Hurricanehink can you weigh in?

"Deciding what": I have to take a side. We are in the middle of FAR. Climatological normal mentions that normals are not without criticism. Timothy, you are asking me to disregard a specific request from a featured article coordinator to bring climate data up to the present. I asked NWS if NOWData averages are a legitimate solution. -SusanLesch (talk) 13:20, 1 March 2024 (UTC)

Further, we have to decide whether we want current data. If we want current data we must agree to update it annually, something SandyGeorgia would oppose. I need to know if this decision applies to all FAs or not. -SusanLesch (talk) 17:05, 1 March 2024 (UTC)

WMO climate normals has the governing data set I seek. Timothy, you may be relieved to hear that a Minnesota climatologist kindly explained this to me. I'll take care of informing the FA coordinator. Thank you for your patience. You had this right. -SusanLesch (talk) 20:18, 1 March 2024 (UTC)

Eek, sorry I didn't get back sooner, and sorry I messed things up by including the whole dataset with the averages! I also got a bit of a crash course in climate averages, that we should be using the 1991-2020 period, which incidentally means we only have to update every ten years (unless there are monthly record highs/lows). Thanks Timothy2b and SusanLesch for figuring this out. ♫ Hurricanehink (talk) 05:13, 2 March 2024 (UTC)

No worries. That's what talk pages are for. I'm relieved that we won't have to update this annually. Thanks again for your help. -SusanLesch (talk) 13:47, 2 March 2024 (UTC)

Sorry for the late reply! And you're welcome, and again, if you ever want help with how to find some of the climate values on NOAA's website I'm happy to help. Timothy2b (talk) 15:52, 2 March 2024 (UTC)

We've made great strides here. If a robot can't do the 2030 update I will be sure to ask you. 😀 Timothy2b, I do hope you'll sign up as a participant in WP:WikiProject Weather. Hurricanehink, I'm afraid I misled you—you did a perfect job but we asked for the wrong thing. Best wishes. -SusanLesch (talk) 03:53, 3 March 2024 (UTC)

New lead

Greetings. As the last step of FAR, the lead needs to be inclusive of all sections in the article. I propose the following. Your comments? -SusanLesch (talk) 14:30, 10 March 2024 (UTC)

Extended content

Minneapolis, officially the City of Minneapolis, is a city in the state of Minnesota and the county seat of Hennepin County. With a population of 429,954, it is the state's most populous city as of the 2020 census. It occupies both banks of the Mississippi River and adjoins Saint Paul, the state capital of Minnesota. Minneapolis, Saint Paul, and the surrounding area are collectively known as the Twin Cities, a metropolitan area home to 3.69 million inhabitants. Minneapolis is built on an artesian aquifer on flat terrain, and is known for cold, snowy winters and warm, humid summers. Nicknamed the "City of Lakes", Minneapolis is abundant in water, with thirteen lakes, wetlands, the Mississippi River, creeks, and waterfalls. One of the most extensive public park systems in the US is connected by the Grand Rounds National Scenic Byway. The site of Minneapolis was originally inhabited by Dakota people. European settlement began along Saint Anthony Falls—the only natural waterfall on the Mississippi River—on land north of Fort Snelling. The city's early growth was attributed to its proximity to the fort and the falls providing power for industrial activity. Minneapolis was the 19th-century lumber and flour milling capital of the world, and as home to the Federal Reserve Bank of Minneapolis has preserved its financial clout into the 21st century. A Depression-era labor strike brought about federal worker protections. Minneapolis played a role in the development of supercomputers and mobile refrigeration, and is the birthplace of General Mills, the Pillsbury brand, and the Target Corporation. Minneapolis offers literary presses and publishers; James Beard award-winning chefs; ethnic museums; and US pond hockey championships. The city's arts institutions include the Minneapolis Institute of Art and the Guthrie Theater. Four professional sports teams play downtown. Prince is survived by his favorite venue, the First Avenue nightclub. Minneapolis is home to the University of Minnesota's main campus. The city's public transport is provided by Metro Transit and the international airport, serving the Twin Cities region, is located towards the south on the city limits. Most of the world's religions are reflected in the city, which upholds more than 50 denominations and religions, and many Minneapolitans are volunteers. Despite its well-regarded quality of life, Minneapolis faces a pressing challenge in the form of stark disparities among its residents—arguably the most critical issue confronting the city in the 21st century. Governed by a mayor-council system, Minneapolis has a political landscape dominated by the Minnesota Democratic–Farmer–Labor Party (DFL), with Jacob Frey serving as mayor since 2018. -SusanLesch (talk) 14:30, 10 March 2024 (UTC) Sounds like a tourism guide to Minneapolis and not in Encyclopedia tone such as "Favorite son Prince", other things are not significant enough to be in the lead such as the Ojibwe treatment center or "downtown ambassadors greet visitors".  oncamera  (talk page) 23:01, 10 March 2024 (UTC) What do you suggest? The two sentences on DID ambassadors and Red Lake Nation are gone. Prince represents the music section. This is rather challenging to mention every section. Can you help? -SusanLesch (talk) 14:21, 11 March 2024 (UTC) Oncamera, kindly edit the above in place. -SusanLesch (talk) 14:37, 11 March 2024 (UTC) The lead does not need to mention every section per MOS:LEAD, just what is important. On Wikipedia, the lead section is an introduction to an article and a summary of its most important contents.  oncamera  (talk page) 16:54, 11 March 2024 (UTC) Right, except we only have about three FAR reviewers still active. One says, "My opinion is: if there's a heading for it in the body, it should be mentioned in the lede, even if only briefly." -SusanLesch (talk) 17:01, 11 March 2024 (UTC) That's just their opinion. The lead shouldn't be filled with less important things about city greeters, that's absurd.  oncamera  (talk page) 17:05, 11 March 2024 (UTC) Oncamera, I invite you to improve the lead. The person who was assigned that task hasn't done it, and we are at the end of FAR. -SusanLesch (talk) 17:26, 11 March 2024 (UTC)

New lead 2

Minneapolis, officially the City of Minneapolis, is a city in the state of Minnesota and the county seat of Hennepin County. With a population of 429,954, it is the state's most populous city as of the 2020 census. It occupies both banks of the Mississippi River and adjoins Saint Paul, the state capital of Minnesota. Minneapolis, Saint Paul, and the surrounding area are collectively known as the Twin Cities, a metropolitan area home to 3.69 million inhabitants. Minneapolis is built on an artesian aquifer on flat terrain, and is known for cold, snowy winters and warm, humid summers. Nicknamed the "City of Lakes", Minneapolis is abundant in water, with thirteen lakes, wetlands, the Mississippi River, creeks, and waterfalls. The city's extensive public park system is connected by the Grand Rounds National Scenic Byway.

Dakota people originally inhabited the site of today's Minneapolis. European settlement began north of Fort Snelling along Saint Anthony Falls—the only natural waterfall on the Mississippi River. The city's early growth was attributed to its proximity to the fort and the falls providing power for industrial activity. Minneapolis was the 19th-century lumber and flour milling capital of the world, and as home to the Federal Reserve Bank of Minneapolis has preserved its financial clout into the 21st century. A Minneapolis Depression-era labor strike brought about federal worker protections. Work in Minneapolis contributed to the computing industry, and the city is the birthplace of General Mills, the Pillsbury brand, Target Corporation, and of Thermo King mobile refrigeration.

The city's major arts institutions include the Minneapolis Institute of Art, the Walker Art Center, and the Guthrie Theater. Four professional sports teams play downtown. Prince is survived by his favorite venue, the First Avenue nightclub. Minneapolis is home to the University of Minnesota's main campus. The city's public transport is provided by Metro Transit and the international airport, serving the Twin Cities region, is located towards the south on the city limits.

Residents adhere to more than fifty religions, and thousands choose to volunteer their time. Despite its well-regarded quality of life, Minneapolis faces a pressing challenge in the form of stark disparities among its residents—arguably the most critical issue confronting the city in the 21st century. Governed by a mayor-council system, Minneapolis has a political landscape dominated by the Minnesota Democratic–Farmer–Labor Party (DFL), with Jacob Frey serving as mayor since 2018.

Oncamera, please see what you think of the above. Do you think it's better? -SusanLesch (talk) 19:53, 12 March 2024 (UTC)

It's improved. One thing: I've never heard/read anyone be called a "Minneapolitan" and it shows up as a typo on my browser. Can that be simplified to just citizens in the sentence: "and many Minneapolitans choose to volunteer?"  oncamera  _{(talk page)} 22:46, 12 March 2024 (UTC)

Reworded that. (I've heard the Minneapolitan demonym since at least fourth grade.) Anything else? Do you think I can put this in the article now? -SusanLesch (talk) 14:46, 13 March 2024 (UTC)

Oncamera, I tweaked the list of companies. Is this one OK to put in the article? -SusanLesch (talk) 16:47, 14 March 2024 (UTC)

References

Rollerblades

@Magnolia677: Thank you for your edit. I will reword the entry accordingly; please note though, the US Patent Office says the company was incorporated in Minneapolis. -SusanLesch (talk) 20:16, 21 March 2024 (UTC)

As far as I can tell, at least one of the brothers still lives in Waconia. I'm tempted to leave this out. How would you account for the patent office statement? -SusanLesch (talk) 22:01, 21 March 2024 (UTC)

They probably went to the nearest pattent office. Magnolia677 (talk) 09:56, 22 March 2024 (UTC)

I removed them. (One of the brothers talks pretty loosely about location, saying that Minneapolis is the hockey capital of the US. He seems to forget about Waconia as I did.) Thanks again. -SusanLesch (talk) 14:42, 22 March 2024 (UTC)

Dakota homeland

@Oncamera: With this edit you changed a section heading from "Dakota people" to "Dakota homeland". This source includes a map of the Dakota traditional territory, and also states--with regard to the "Dakota homeland"--that the Dakota controlled a territory "that stretched from the Upper Mississippi River to the Middle Missouri River". How is it that you view Minneapolis as the Dakota "homeland"? Magnolia677 (talk) 10:59, 23 March 2024 (UTC)

Minneapolis is on Dakota homelands: homeland is a place where a cultural, national, or ethnic identity has formed. See Bdóte - Dakota name for Minneapolis and Saint Paul area, includes origin story of Dakota people and maintains a significant role in Dakota cultural identity.

Numerous maps show an extended territory for the Sioux nation but most early interaction between Europeans and Dakota people took place in the Minneapolis area, which opened the area up for Euro migrations. In formal agreements with the government, the 1805 Treaty of St. Peters, Treaty of Mendota, Treaty of Traverse des Sioux are treaties between Dakota people and the United States, where Minneapolis is located, that include Dakota homelands and historically where Dakota villages were located. The treaties, and later forced exile after the Dakota War of 1862 pushed the majority of Dakota people out of what became Minneapolis.

There's a long history of Europeans engaging with Dakota people in Minneapolis, as you know with your Louis Hennepin edit. Joseph Nicollet also befriended Dakota people there as he created his map with many Dakota placenames. Gideon Hollister Pond and his brother created one of the first Dakota orthographies and dictionaries at Bde Maka Ska which are still in use today. Dakota people don't have origin stories anywhere else but in Minnesota, especially at Bdóte. Dakota villages were seasonal and moved depending on the time of the year but culturally they center on the confluence of the Minnesota and Mississippi rivers and surrounding areas.  oncamera  _{(talk page)} 14:16, 23 March 2024 (UTC)

@Oncamera: Do you have a source that specifically says Minneapolis is the Dakota "homeland"? Magnolia677 (talk) 14:19, 23 March 2024 (UTC)

• Minnesota historical society: https://www.mnhs.org/millcity/learn/history/minneapolis-riverfront
• City of Minneapolis land acknowledgement: https://www.minneapolis.org/land-acknowledgment/
• University of Minnesota Twin Cities land acknowledgement: https://admissions.tc.umn.edu/land-acknowledgement
• Secondary source, CBS News: https://www.cbsnews.com/minnesota/news/hennepin-county-adopts-land-and-water-acknowledgment-statement/

 oncamera  _{(talk page)} 14:34, 23 March 2024 (UTC)

@Oncamera: The sources you have cited state that various places in the region are located on Dakota "homeland", but Minneapolis is not the homeland of the Dakota. Please keep in mind: this article is not about the Dakota, or about the history of Minnesota...it is about Minneapolis. So changing a section heading to suggest that the city is the homeland of the Dakota--when sources cited do not support this or suggest the opposite--is both misleading and factually incorrect. Please revert your edit. Magnolia677 (talk) 15:15, 23 March 2024 (UTC)

This article includes the history about how the Dakota were originally on the land that became Minneapolis. You can't write about Dakota people without writing about their land in this article, therefore you can't change it from Dakota homelands to Dakota people as you did. Interactions with the Dakota leaders, US government and various notable Europeans reiterate it's Dakota homelands and numerous organizations call it Dakota homelands today. You're incorrect to ask that it be reverted to Dakota people as the section is about them originally inhabiting this land, it's not about their society as peoples.  oncamera  _{(talk page)} 15:29, 23 March 2024 (UTC)