Talk:Mikhail Bakunin/Archive 2
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Family life
Hi Czar! I saw the section you left on my talk page and just wanted to drop by to say hi and potentially talk about adding a section on Bakunin's family life. It seems to me a little strange to leave it out considering Bakunin had such a famously close relationship with his sisters, and, although I doubt that it would warrant an entire page of its own, perhaps I could add it in as a subsection within Personal Life? I really appreciate your comment and I'd be glad to talk to you more about it all. Ghostplants (talk) 19:21, 23 November 2020 (UTC)
Hi @Ghostplants, moving the discussion here from our talk pages so others can see. Adding to the existing section on "Personal life" is an excellent idea. I would recommend starting with a single, broad paragraph so that it's covered in proportion to the rest of his life (due weight). Do you have a direct citation for "Bakunin had ... a famously close relationship with his sisters"? If you can cite that topic sentence, it'd be a good place to start. Let us know here if you have any questions! (By the way, this article is in glaringly bad condition right now with many paragraphs lacking footnotes, so while it's hard to use its other sections as a standard, articles in better condition generally strive to have each sentence cited to a specific page or range in the source, with at least one footnote per paragraph if not more granular.) czar 19:37, 23 November 2020 (UTC)
Anti-Semitism... is it necessary?
The mentioning of Bakunin espousing? (Is that the word I'm looking for?) his anti-Semitism... I don't know is it truly necessary? I mean back in his time there were lots of people who hated the Jews... It was the thing to do, at the time. I don't know... Maybe I'm over thinking this, in fact, yes I am, in fact disregard my message all together. Shalom! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 144.133.96.132 (talk) 01:44, 15 December 2019 (UTC)
- That quote is not present in Wheen, Francis. Karl Marx. HarperCollins UK. ISBN 978-0-00-738759-5. nor in Judaica. Paul McLaughlin only mentioned the word "anti-semitism" once, so an elaboration on that is needed. Rupert Loup (talk) 22:48, 21 September 2020 (UTC)
I've expanded the section on Bakunin's anti-semitism, but I'm not sure if I formatted the sources correctly - I'd appreciate any guidance or critique Ghostplants (talk) 21:42, 23 November 2020 (UTC)
@Davide King Sorry to revert part of your edit. I agree that my bias may've come across in my edits, but I found it rather hasty of you to've deleted the entire section on antisemitism. I'd be glad to discuss potential changes with you here Ghostplants (talk) 23:32, 25 November 2020 (UTC)
- Ghostplants, I believe the IP and Rupert Loup gave valid reasoning, including the Wheen quote which was actually missing. I agree that an elaboration on that is needed, but the way you did that was not encyclopedic. Since you have actually "expanded the section on Bakunin's anti-semitism", even though an IP and another user expressed doubts, and you say to be "not sure if I formatted the sources correctly - I'd appreciate any guidance or critique", I think your revert was not correct and that you should have pinged back at least Rupert Loup to get some feedback. The onus is on you but I am not sure your edits succeed and it looks like undue, especially since one source that is repeatedly used is actually about new antisemitism. I reckon Czar could give us some valid thoughts on the matter, as they have done below about Family life. Davide King (talk) 23:49, 25 November 2020 (UTC)
- @Davide King Thank you so much for bringing it up! I've changed the wording of the section so that it's, hopefully, a little more encyclopedic, and I've added a few more sources. If you think there ought to be any other changes, I'd be glad to make them. I understand that Rosenfeld's book is on new antisemitism, but in his chapter on the anarchist tradition, he goes into detail on Bakunin's particular ideology and how it had informed views on antisemitism in later anarchist and radical movements. However, if you think I haven't enough sources in this particular section, I can definitely try to find more. @Rupert Loup I've also deleted the reference to Wheen, and I'd genuinely appreciate any feedback. Thank you both for your time and for your help on this section, I really do appreciate it. Ghostplants (talk) 03:39, 26 November 2020 (UTC)
- Thank you very much for your comments and kind words. I do not think your edits were wrong per se but it is more of a matter on whether they are due; I agree that they are relevant but that is just my opinion. I think Czar is more knowledgable than I and they can easily look at literature and tell whether it is due, so I hope they can share their thoughts on this. Davide King (talk) 15:46, 26 November 2020 (UTC)
- @Ghostplants, do you have sources that contextualize anti-Semitism within his overall thought? For instance Leier describes it as being a "miniscule part of his thought, never becoming a consistent theme in his writing or turning into generalized attacks on Jews" and then contests another historian's assessment that it corrupts Bakunin's thought "irredeemably". Essentially looking for sources that cover this topic more in overview than having to repeat X historian said Y. Ideally this section would have very few quotes, apart from where sources stress the direct quotes for reasons beyond shock value. For overall weight in the article, the current section length (a third of the original edit) is workable for now, given the current state of the article. When this article is finally rewritten top to bottom, it will make sense to replace the dedicated "Criticism" section with an overall analysis of Bakunin's thought and impact. czar 06:27, 27 November 2020 (UTC)
- @Czar I'm sorry I'm afraid I haven't found an overall view of Bakunin's antisemitism - critics seem to be coming at the question from two completely incompatible perspectives. Most Bakunin biographers, such as Carr, Leier, and Masters, seem interested in how Bakunin's antisemitism can be understood in the context of his person and his life, and they seem to view his most famous antisemitic statements as characteristic but unfortunate outbursts brought on by his personal conflict with "Marx and other Jews." Therefore, they seem uninterested in delving deeper into its origins or its ties with his political philosophy, waving it off as merely endemic to the "pervasiveness of anti-Semitism in Russia" and in the Russian aristocracy. Meanwhile, scholars of antisemitism seem more interested in relating Bakunin's antisemitism to his political theory, so that they might put into ideological context the antisemitism that exists in the left and in radical and sometimes anarchist circles. So I'm afraid I'm rather lost since the two stances seem so entirely disparate that they're barely in a conversation with one another, and I'm curious how you think it'd be best to present them? Ghostplants (talk) 05:29, 28 November 2020 (UTC)
- I haven't delved too deep into this but there appears to be a fair amount of connective tissue, such as the Cambridge foreword to Statism and Anarchy that talks about Bakunin's anti-Semitism predating Marx, and other sources on the relation between anti-Germanism and anti-Semitism, especially within revolutionary circles. One or two sentences would be enough for background. (Hal Draper has a fair amount on this and racism in Bakunin's thought but I heard this source is hagiographic so not sure how citeable? I haven't read it.) Basically this section needs some summative topic sentences and those should be reliably source from someone with some distance from the original analysis. Ideally looking to paraphrase the scholarly discussion from sources with as much ideological distance from the subject as possible. czar 08:03, 28 November 2020 (UTC)
- @Czar I'm sorry I'm afraid I haven't found an overall view of Bakunin's antisemitism - critics seem to be coming at the question from two completely incompatible perspectives. Most Bakunin biographers, such as Carr, Leier, and Masters, seem interested in how Bakunin's antisemitism can be understood in the context of his person and his life, and they seem to view his most famous antisemitic statements as characteristic but unfortunate outbursts brought on by his personal conflict with "Marx and other Jews." Therefore, they seem uninterested in delving deeper into its origins or its ties with his political philosophy, waving it off as merely endemic to the "pervasiveness of anti-Semitism in Russia" and in the Russian aristocracy. Meanwhile, scholars of antisemitism seem more interested in relating Bakunin's antisemitism to his political theory, so that they might put into ideological context the antisemitism that exists in the left and in radical and sometimes anarchist circles. So I'm afraid I'm rather lost since the two stances seem so entirely disparate that they're barely in a conversation with one another, and I'm curious how you think it'd be best to present them? Ghostplants (talk) 05:29, 28 November 2020 (UTC)
- @Ghostplants, do you have sources that contextualize anti-Semitism within his overall thought? For instance Leier describes it as being a "miniscule part of his thought, never becoming a consistent theme in his writing or turning into generalized attacks on Jews" and then contests another historian's assessment that it corrupts Bakunin's thought "irredeemably". Essentially looking for sources that cover this topic more in overview than having to repeat X historian said Y. Ideally this section would have very few quotes, apart from where sources stress the direct quotes for reasons beyond shock value. For overall weight in the article, the current section length (a third of the original edit) is workable for now, given the current state of the article. When this article is finally rewritten top to bottom, it will make sense to replace the dedicated "Criticism" section with an overall analysis of Bakunin's thought and impact. czar 06:27, 27 November 2020 (UTC)
- Thank you very much for your comments and kind words. I do not think your edits were wrong per se but it is more of a matter on whether they are due; I agree that they are relevant but that is just my opinion. I think Czar is more knowledgable than I and they can easily look at literature and tell whether it is due, so I hope they can share their thoughts on this. Davide King (talk) 15:46, 26 November 2020 (UTC)
- @Davide King Thank you so much for bringing it up! I've changed the wording of the section so that it's, hopefully, a little more encyclopedic, and I've added a few more sources. If you think there ought to be any other changes, I'd be glad to make them. I understand that Rosenfeld's book is on new antisemitism, but in his chapter on the anarchist tradition, he goes into detail on Bakunin's particular ideology and how it had informed views on antisemitism in later anarchist and radical movements. However, if you think I haven't enough sources in this particular section, I can definitely try to find more. @Rupert Loup I've also deleted the reference to Wheen, and I'd genuinely appreciate any feedback. Thank you both for your time and for your help on this section, I really do appreciate it. Ghostplants (talk) 03:39, 26 November 2020 (UTC)