Talk:Messianic Judaism/Archive 24

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Please continue to use list-defined references

With the plethora of references this article needs for WP:NPOV, and the duplication of them at times, the article uses list-defined references. This means that every reference is specified in the section below the article (the one broken down alphabetically by HTML comments) and the article text only has references of the form <ref name = foo /> or {{r|foo}}. I will be attempting to clean up the article over time, but please keep this in mind when adding new references. Thank you. -- Avi (talk) 16:04, 22 May 2018 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 28 October 2018

https://www.gotquestions.org/Messianic-Judaism.html

Question: "What is Messianic Judaism?"

Answer: Messianic Judaism is the term given to the belief system of Jewish people who believe and have accepted Yeshua (the Hebrew name for Jesus) of Nazareth as the promised Messiah of the Hebrew Scriptures. These Jewish people do not stop being Jewish, but they continue to remain strong in their Jewish identity, lifestyle and culture, while following Yeshua as He is revealed in the Brit Chadashah, the New Covenant. Many Messianic Jews refer to themselves as “completed Jews,” since they believe that their faith in the God of Israel has been “completed” or fulfilled in Yeshua.

In reality, Messianic Judaism began 2,000 years ago. Yeshua Himself was an observant Jew, most of the apostles and writers of the New Covenant were Jewish, and the vast majority of the early believers in Yeshua were also Jewish (see Acts chapter 2).

Traditional rabbinical Judaism today does not believe that Yeshua is the Jewish Messiah. Observant Jews are still waiting faithfully in accordance with the Rambam’s (Rabbi Moses Maimonides, 1134-1204) “Thirteen Principles of Jewish Faith,” which states in Principle 12, “I believe with perfect faith in the coming of the Messiah. However long it takes, I will await His coming every day.” Most secular Jews do not believe in the physical coming of a personal Messiah, but some still look forward to a general Messianic concept or Messianic Age.

Today, it is estimated that there are over 350,000 Messianic Jews in the world, and the numbers are growing all the time. Messianic synagogues have also become very popular, and recent estimates number more than 200 congregations in the U.S. There are also many Messianic congregations in Israel and around the world.

Messianic Jews continue to celebrate the Jewish festivals and feast days as prescribed in the Hebrew Scriptures (i.e., Feast of Weeks, Feast of Tabernacles, etc.), but their observances are meant to demonstrate how Yeshua has already fulfilled these Holy Days. Most Messianic Jews, if they celebrate Easter, remove the pagan influences and celebrate only what is given in the Bible—viz., the Passover. Jews who now follow Yeshua the Messiah understand that everything given in the Old Covenant was a “mere shadow” of the better things to come in the New. 75.150.246.121 (talk) 19:42, 28 October 2018 (UTC)

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format. ‑‑ElHef (Meep?) 19:51, 28 October 2018 (UTC)

No good. There were Jewish Christians, such as the congregation Paul wrote to in his Epistle to the Hebrews, but the modern fundamentalist Christian denomination this article is about is sui generis. It is entitled to respect, but not to the claim you advance. User:Fred Bauder Talk 14:36, 2 November 2018 (UTC)

Another problem, although there may be descendants of early Jewish Christians who somehow became Roman Catholic, or even Protestant, they are probably all members of some Eastern Christianity denomination such as the Maronites. User:Fred Bauder Talk 06:01, 4 November 2018 (UTC)

"Even Christian sources say it". You make this sound as if Christians do not commonly give validity to the Messianic movement. They frequently do, and even encourage it. Modern Jews are the people you need to convince, which has yet to happen. No, this is not some ancient Jewish-Christian movement, it's a hodgepodge of Ashkenazi Judaism (Already corrupted by western influence), and Catholic-derived Western Christianity (Corrupted by Roman culture, and the authority of the Vatican and the Popes). These two, very large and very heavily changed religious traditions (changed from the original, i.e., 1st or 2nd temple judaism or jesus's christianity from his lifetime) that hold almost no resemblence to either the original forms of their observance, or even the form that Jewish Christian's took when they existed. - Cakiva (talk) 10:45, 11 November 2018 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 17 November 2018

John12273 (talk) 16:06, 17 November 2018 (UTC)

Question: "What is Messianic Judaism?"

Answer: Messianic Judaism is the term given to the belief system of Jewish people who believe and have accepted Yeshua (the Hebrew name for Jesus) of Nazareth as the promised Messiah of the Hebrew Scriptures. These Jewish people do not stop being Jewish, but they continue to remain strong in their Jewish identity, lifestyle and culture, while following Yeshua as He is revealed in the Brit Chadashah, the New Covenant. Many Messianic Jews refer to themselves as “completed Jews,” since they believe that their faith in the God of Israel has been “completed” or fulfilled in Yeshua.

In reality, Messianic Judaism began 2,000 years ago. Yeshua Himself was an observant Jew, most of the apostles and writers of the New Covenant were Jewish, and the vast majority of the early believers in Yeshua were also Jewish (see Acts chapter 2).

Traditional rabbinical Judaism today does not believe that Yeshua is the Jewish Messiah. Observant Jews are still waiting faithfully in accordance with the Rambam’s (Rabbi Moses Maimonides, 1134-1204) “Thirteen Principles of Jewish Faith,” which states in Principle 12, “I believe with perfect faith in the coming of the Messiah. However long it takes, I will await His coming every day.” Most secular Jews do not believe in the physical coming of a personal Messiah, but some still look forward to a general Messianic concept or Messianic Age.

Today, it is estimated that there are over 350,000 Messianic Jews in the world, and the numbers are growing all the time. Messianic synagogues have also become very popular, and recent estimates number more than 200 congregations in the U.S. There are also many Messianic congregations in Israel and around the world.

Messianic Jews continue to celebrate the Jewish festivals and feast days as prescribed in the Hebrew Scriptures (i.e., Feast of Weeks, Feast of Tabernacles, etc.), but their observances are meant to demonstrate how Yeshua has already fulfilled these Holy Days. Most Messianic Jews, if they celebrate Easter, remove the pagan influences and celebrate only what is given in the Bible—viz., the Passover. Jews who now follow Yeshua the Messiah understand that everything given in the Old Covenant was a “mere shadow” of the better things to come in the New.

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. DannyS712 (talk) 16:58, 17 November 2018 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 20 December 2018

{{subst:trim|1=

After:

Messianic Jews believe that Jesus 108.171.132.167 (talk) 20:46, 20 December 2018 (UTC)

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. DannyS712 (talk) 21:03, 20 December 2018 (UTC)

References

Semi-protected edit request on 20 December 2018

{{subst:trim|1=

My edit would be to update or enhance this first line of the second paragraph:

Messianic Jews believe that Jesus is the Jewish Messiah and "God the Son" (one person of the Trinity), and that the Tanakh Keithm66 (talk) 20:31, 20 December 2018 (UTC)

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. – Jonesey95 (talk) 23:40, 20 December 2018 (UTC)

References

Semi-protected edit request on 18 January 2019

Change this "Messianic Judaism is a modern syncretic religious movement that combines Christianity—most importantly, the belief that Jesus is the Messiah—with elements of Judaism and Jewish tradition.[1][2][3][4][5] Its current form emerged in the 1960s and 1970s." to "Messianic Judaism is a modern syncretic religious movement that are Jews who believe in Jesus. It does not combine Christianity with Judaism, but just accepts that Jesus is the Messiah. 2600:1700:A1C0:6320:E5FD:FE34:8E7:D118 (talk) 20:19, 18 January 2019 (UTC)

 Not done: please establish a consensus for this alteration before using the {{edit semi-protected}} template. Please also cite your sources refuting the information already in the article. ‑‑ElHef (Meep?) 21:53, 18 January 2019 (UTC)

Citation formats

I reverted the most recent change as unfortunately, this is a rather disputed article, so efficiency in going directly to the citation is valuable. Also, while we may have multiple citations to the same work, they are to different quotations from that work, and so cannot be combined. Perhaps we can combine the bibliographic elements into a works cited list, but the actual page and quote need to remain in the article, which necessitates individual entries. Do you have any ideas as to how we can streamline the citations without removing the separate quotations and keeping it easy for the reader to find the specific quote? Thank you. -- Avi (talk) 15:14, 2 April 2019 (UTC)

I have started a massive project to convert the multiple citations that differ only by page & quote into {{sfn}}/{{harv}} format, so that the true bibliographic information only appears once and only the quotes and pages recur in the references. As such, I'm combining the notes and the list into a "Refernes & Works Cited" section and taking it from there.

To editor Ribose carb:, after further review, I see your point. Especially as I'm creating two-step references myself, there is no reaoson not to wrap the big ones. I may not get to it today, but I will restore those. Thank you. -- Avi (talk) 18:56, 2 April 2019 (UTC)

To editor Ribose carb: Instead of wrapping, through judicious use of combinations and elisions, there are no citation "chains" any longer than four entries at this point. Some of the early ones I struggle to get down to three, because each one brings a different viewpoint and is used elsewhere. I will continue to work on this so that we have high-quality citations that don't overwhelm the eye. I would really, really like to avoid wrapping them if we can. Thank you. -- Avi (talk) 23:45, 2 April 2019 (UTC)

Great work. I was just getting some edits in during class, thus why I wasn't able to really merge citations. I'll actually merge some later tonight. Some wrapping might be called for in certain sections consisting of multiple sources usud in different combintations elsewhere, but that can be done later, and you might have already fixed that problem already. --Ribose carb (talk) 03:43, 3 April 2019 (UTC)

As you can probably see, I'm making some substantial updates. That's what happens when you go away from an article for a few months; everything falls apart . If you wouldn't mind, please give me a few days to try and work the rest out. There are a slew of insufficient or plain wrong sources, and some additions were made that don't belong in this article. Thanks. -- Avi (talk) 06:42, 3 April 2019 (UTC)

See below Talk:Messianic Judaism #Synopsis of recent major overhaul. -- Avi (talk) 00:29, 4 April 2019 (UTC)

Foundational Leaders and Congregations section

Do we really need these many bios of leaders and congregations here? If the people and places are notable in their own right, they should have their own articles. If not, then this article should not be used as an end-around. Brief mentions, perhaps, but not a section that is larger than the one on MJ religious beliefs. What makes these people more special than anyone else? -- Avi (talk) 15:26, 2 April 2019 (UTC)

For the time being, as I process the citations, I will be paring down what I feel is unnotable/unencyclopedic entries. If necessary, we can continue the discussion here. Thank you. -- Avi (talk) 18:57, 2 April 2019 (UTC)

I'm removing the sections. Both Daniel Juster and Manny Brotman have their own articles, they don't need repetion here. And would anyone say they are more important than Leopold Cohn in the history of the movement? We can discuss having a list of notable people in the movement's history, but replicating biographies of people or places in this article is overkill and unnecessary. -- Avi (talk) 21:42, 2 April 2019 (UTC)

See below Talk:Messianic Judaism #Synopsis of recent major overhaul. -- Avi (talk) 00:29, 4 April 2019 (UTC)

Invalid citations

There are a large number of sources which are either wroong or are not acceptable according to WP:V, such as self-published works. For the time being, I will remove the source and tag the sentence with {{cn}} where appropriate. Eventually, proper sourcing should be brought or the information removed. -- Avi (talk) 22:29, 2 April 2019 (UTC)

See below Talk:Messianic Judaism #Synopsis of recent major overhaul. -- Avi (talk) 00:29, 4 April 2019 (UTC)

Messianic Jewish Population - unsourced and severely outdated

The most recent data we have is based on Posner 2012. It has been over six years. Does anyone know of a good source for a more updated census figure? -- Avi (talk) 02:52, 3 April 2019 (UTC)

This article from 2017 is using our 2012 numbers. -- Avi (talk) 02:53, 3 April 2019 (UTC)

The claim of “currently” for HaYesod groups is preposterous. There is no current figure nor any way to obtain one. A person in a study group isn’t necessarily anything but a prospective proselyte which might have only a small correlation with future growth. 24.139.51.14 (talk) 00:24, 28 April 2019 (UTC)

Synopsis of recent major overhaul

I went through this article very carefully. I removed a number of elements that were original research or redundant or about non-notable people and places or even notable people and places who are tangential and are better handled in their own articles than here. I went through almost every citation and found a boatload of misshapen, misplaced, malformed, and altogether incorrect citations. ISBNs for books that don't exist, blogs, dead links with no hope of resurrection, the works. Where I could, I found live versions of those links, sources already in the article which would suffice, or new sources. Where I flat out couldn't find anything, if the text was tangential, I removed it. Otherwise I rewrote it to be able to be supported by an existing source. If that was impossible, I tagged it as needing sourcing. I also reformulated the citation style to allow for one entry of the main bibliographic information even if the same source is being used multiple times for different pages/quotes. This was accomplished by having journal and book entries use bulleted citations and then judicious use of {{sfn}} and {{harvnb}}. For websites, I retained the standard <ref name = ""> style. I also tried to move all full citations into the reference section at the bottom of the article, leaving only ref anchors or {{sfn}} in the text for simpler editing. I also reviwed most of the text to ensure that it was properly supported by its citation without being plagiarism. At this point, the sections I have not given as much attention to, which still need it, are the Scriptures, Evangelism, Eschatology, and some other of the Religious practice sections. There are already good sources in the article for a lot of the more-weakly supported statements, but I don't have the mental capacity to do that now. Maybe after Pesach. However, I feel that most of the plagiarism, original research, and unsupported statements have been removed from the article, and that the ordering and the prose are both more straightforward and easier to read and follow. As through this endeavor, I was able to reduce the citation list by about 30 entries, and reduce all "citation chains of numbers" to no more than four (and those less than 5 times), I feel comfortable removing the {{excessive citations}} tag. Thank you. -- Avi (talk) 00:27, 4 April 2019 (UTC)

Thank you. 24.139.51.14 (talk) 00:27, 28 April 2019 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 29 July 2019

Kishinev was in Bessarabia, a gubernia of the Russian Empire at the time. NOT in Ukraine, as stated in the article. 2A02:2450:102D:3B5:B564:57F:DEFF:F639 (talk) 13:35, 29 July 2019 (UTC)

 Done, thanks —Nizolan ^{(talk · c.)} 14:17, 29 July 2019 (UTC)

Not accurate

"A Birmingham, Alabama police employee's religious discrimination case was settled in her favor after she filed suit over having to work on the Jewish Sabbath.[129]"

This has nothing to do with the tension between Messianic Judaism (aka Christianity) and Judaism. Seventh Day Adventists are Christians and they also celebrate Saturday as the Sabbath. The article simply states that someone should not be discriminated against because of their religion. It doesn't say that the government recognized that Messianic Judaism is any kind of Judaism. It simply recognized that Gunn said she kept Saturday as the Sabbath as part of her religion and Messianic Judaism is a recognized organized religion - just like Scientology.

Here is a reference with the complete information that isn't wayback machine'd or paywalled.

https://www.al.com/spotnews/2013/09/messianic_jewish_woman_wins_ba.html

Please remove this reference. As usual, Messianic Judaism is misrepresenting itself. — Preceding unsigned comment added by EditWiki2020 (talk • contribs) 13:59, 18 July 2019 (UTC)

Just a note re. "note e": "... taken from the Latin translation of "Chadasha"(testamentum)" The Hebrew should read "Brit", not "Chadasha". Please correct this. [Do you need a source for this? It's just a basic correction.]. Thanks. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.197.220.45 (talk) 20:21, 12 November 2019 (UTC)

Messianic publications Section

Would like to add the Messianic Judaism Reddit crowd source page (https://www.reddit.com/r/messianic/comments/7bt62w/lets_crowdsource_a_sticky_post_explaining/) as a source for available free Messianic commentaries. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Nmos211 (talk • contribs) 23:16, 30 November 2019 (UTC)

 Not done per WP:ELNO. –Deacon Vorbis (carbon • videos) 00:17, 1 December 2019 (UTC)

Linking of “Jewish laws or customs...[do not contribute to salvation]”

Hi there, this is a request for an edit as well as a discussion if necessary. I noticed that for the phrase where messianic Jews do not believe that Jewish laws/customs/mitzvot contribute to an individual’s salvation, the link chosen is for Cultural Judaism. However, I do not agree with this linking and believe it is not NPOV. Firstly, wouldn’t it be equally or more fair to identify this belief structure from a Christian perspective rather than a Jewish one, since Messianic Jews are Christian in belief and Jewish in perceived identity? The suggested link in this case is Abrogation of Old Covenant laws, according to Christian belief. Secondly, the linking of that phrase from the Jewish perspective would seem to partially substantiate the claim or idea that Messianic Jews are “halachically” Jewish, which not all claim to be, or at least ethnically Jewish, which not all are (a substantial number are converts). Thirdly, the link I’ve suggested covers Messianic Jews not just from a Protestant perspective, which Messianic Jews are, but I would argue from a broadly Christian perspective. 2607:FEA8:1DDF:FEE1:30AE:D681:31BC:6CF7 (talk) 22:46, 13 December 2019 (UTC)

 Not done for now: please establish a consensus for this alteration before using the {{edit semi-protected}} template. - FlightTime (open channel) 22:47, 13 December 2019 (UTC)

Thanks, let’s have a discussion. Some other possible links I’d like to put forward are Law and Gospel (from a Protestant perspective), or Antinomianism (which IMO is not NPOV, and does not accurately describe their beliefs as the phrase quoted above concerns the practice of Jewish laws or mitzvot, and not the entire moral law). 2607:FEA8:1DDF:FEE1:30AE:D681:31BC:6CF7 (talk) 22:58, 13 December 2019 (UTC)

Orphaned references in Messianic Judaism

I check pages listed in Category:Pages with incorrect ref formatting to try to fix reference errors. One of the things I do is look for content for orphaned references in wikilinked articles. I have found content for some of Messianic Judaism's orphans, the problem is that I found more than one version. I can't determine which (if any) is correct for this article, so I am asking for a sentient editor to look it over and copy the correct ref content into this article.

Reference named "Encyclopedia Judaica":

• From Holy Spirit in Judaism: Alan Unterman and Rivka Horowitz, Ruach ha-Kodesh, Encyclopedia Judaica (CD-ROM Edition, Jerusalem: Judaica Multimedia/Keter, 1997).
• From Holy Spirit: Alan Unterman and Rivka Horowitz, Ruah ha-Kodesh, Encyclopaedia Judaica (CD-ROM Edition, Jerusalem: Judaica Multimedia/Keter, 1997).

I apologize if any of the above are effectively identical; I am just a simple computer program, so I can't determine whether minor differences are significant or not. AnomieBOT⚡ 13:16, 18 December 2019 (UTC)

Short description

Raymie, can you clarify why you changed the wikidata description? This is an NRM. Symmachus Auxiliarus (talk) 03:01, 4 June 2020 (UTC)

Symmachus Auxiliarus, I was trying to find a shorter description, but I didn't realize it was a term. I've restored the "new"; if you want to add the "(NRM)" back in, I don't think it belongs in the short description but I'm not the subject expert. Raymie (t • c) 04:01, 4 June 2020 (UTC)

Protestant? Not the only faith to recognize Messianic ✡️

Messianic Judaism ✡️ Faith recognized by non-denominational Christians. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 96.18.85.90 (talk) 15:37, 7 August 2020 (UTC)

Statement in "Scriptures and writings > The Bible" lacks foundation

"With a few exceptions, Messianic believers generally consider the written Torah, the five books of Moses, to remain in force as a continuing covenant, revised by Jesus and the Apostles in the New Testament, that is to be observed both morally and ritually.[72] Jesus did not annul the Torah, but its interpretation is revised through the Apostolic scriptures.[63]" (emphasis mine)

I'm not aware of any doctrinal position held by observers of Messianic Judaism that Jesus and the Apostles "revised" the written Torah. The closest adherents of Messianic Judaism come to that position is a belief that Jesus and the Apostles clarified the meaning of Torah, but none of those clarifications constitute a revision of Torah. Accordingly, I recommend the following edit:

"With a few exceptions, Messianic believers generally consider the written Torah, the five books of Moses, to remain in force as a continuing covenant that is to be observed both morally and ritually.[72] Jesus did not annul the Torah, but its interpretation was clarified by Jesus and the Apostles, as documented in the Apostolic scriptures.[63]" Anguselus (talk) 23:03, 30 August 2020 (UTC)

Your first recommended change (deletion of a clause within a sentence) I have no objection with.. But the second change is problematic: it is POV bias in that it implies the Christian interpretation is the correct interpretation and that the (maindtream) Jews' understanding is wrong. Also, the existing article text I don't see as being too problematic - it is only the interpretation that it says is revised, not the written text. Not even the most hardline Christian would deny that the Christian *interpretation* of scripture was revised from the Jewish interpretation... Firejuggler86 (talk) 23:54, 24 October 2020 (UTC)

Untitled

www.oneforisrael.com is a huge messianic Jewish movement based out of Israel and all over the world — Preceding unsigned comment added by Filo1974 (talk • contribs) 00:50, 29 November 2020 (UTC)

Syncretic label is an unfair

The opening words in this article are biased against Messianic Judaism. While there are some distinctive characteristics, theologically Messianic Judaism is essentially evangelical Christianity with an emphasis on reaching out to the Jewish Community. It cannot be understated that Christianity's roots are Jewish and all the New Testament writers are Jewish. The apostle Paul wrote in Romans 1:16 he is not ashamed of the Gospel and that is to the Jew first and also the gentile. Historically even Paul observed that Jews rejected Jesus as the promised Messiah. The point here being that Christianity can trace Messianic Judaism as part of its roots. Now if you want to argue that there are unique characteristics of Messianic Judaism that combine elements of both Christian and Jewish life you would be correct. But this is cultural more than theological. So what if a Messianic congregation has a Torah scroll? The primary Jewish objection is not the cultural differences, but that of the rejection of Jesus as the promised Messiah. The objection is that the use of Jewish symbols let's say a Menorah, for instance, gives the impression of Judaism on one level, but unless one knew that it was a Messianic congregation, one might be misled. But the real dividing line is the insistence on Jesus in all of the traditional Christian roles which Judaism rejects. The opening salvo in this article is therefore unwarranted. Feel free to disagree, but do not characterize a movement which is squarely in line with traditional Christian doctrine as syncretic.

It is troubling that one citation of the MJAA position is not from the organization itself, but rather Reason magazine. The entry suggests that if someone joins a messianic congregation they can't convert to Judaism. But this overlooks the fact that conversion is a common Christian term. People convert to Christianity all the time. Theologically Messianic Jews believe they do not convert, but rather they have found the fulfillment of the promised Messiah. These ideas are completely missing.

But returning to the topic of "syncretism" the article states:

Syncretism was common during the Hellenistic period, with rulers regularly identifying local deities in various parts of their domains with the relevant god or goddess of the Greek Pantheon, as a means of increasing the cohesion of the Kingdom.

This gives the clear impression that Messianic Judaism combines Judaism with local deities. This really demonstrates a bias. The fact that there is disagreement is one thing. The fact that the true nature of the religion purposely distorted is simply wrong. I would urge whoever edits this to consider changing the entry to correct these obvious misrepresentations. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Misawa24 (talk • contribs) 13:05, 13 January 2020 (UTC)

The word syncretic in this article is in direct contradiction to the clearly stated central beliefs of Messianic Judaism. We have made it clear that we believe ourselves to be one hundred percent Jewish and one hundred percent Christian and that we believe the original and authentic Christian Church to be Jewish in every sense of the word. It is clearly documented in the New Testament that the Apostles were surprised, even shocked, at the idea that a person could even be Christian without being Jewish as well. Messianic Judaism not an attempted combination of two disparate systems of belief. There is one God, one Bible, one Messiah, and one Holy Spirit, everlasting and unchanging, Author of the one Holy Bible, and executor of the one Redemption plan carried out by the one God since the foundation of the universe. Anything in the human practice of Judaism which is in conflict with true Christianity is human error, not true Judaism, and anything in the human practice of Christianity which is on conflict with true Judaism is human error, not true Christianity. We are not syncretizing anything. Satan and the people he has been lying to for thousands of years are violating the true Torah of the Creator by dividing what should never have been divided. This separation was created by humans, and is wholly artificial and inauthentic in every way. It's not even possible to write a dictionary definition of Judaism which excludes Christianity, without specifically naming Christianity in some way as somehow magically an exception to the rest of the definition. Naami bat Kefa (talk) 21:07, 1 December 2020 (UTC)

The Messianic Seal Claim and Citations

The citations for the claim that "There is an ongoing dispute as to whether or not the seal dates from the 1st century CE, or if it is a 20th century invention" under the Messianic Seal of Jerusalem section are atrocious and do not back this claim up. This claim needs to be removed. The claim itself is quite absurd as well.

The Star of David article does not mention this symbol being used in 1st century Christianity and states that its earliest Christian use was for church decoration much later in history. "Unlike the menorah, the Lion of Judah, the shofar and the lulav, the Star of David was never a uniquely Jewish symbol.[2] The hexagram, being an inherently simple geometric construction, has been used in various motifs throughout human history, which were not exclusively religious. The symbol was also used in Christian churches as a decorative motif many centuries before its first known use in a Jewish synagogue."

Stephen Gloss (talk) 00:08, 21 June 2021 (UTC) Stephen

Are you saying that the sources supporting an ancient origin are unreliable, or that the sources supporting a modern origin are unreliable? Can you provide better sources regarding the origin of this symbol? Ibadibam (talk) 19:49, 16 February 2022 (UTC)

Differences between Christianity and Judaism

Completely different cultures and religions, with different histories

Judaism does not equal Christianity minus Jesus...

The sentence "Belief in Jesus as a messiah and divine is considered by Jews to be the defining distinction between Christianity and Judaism" couldn't be more wrong. Which Jews consider that? Certainly not any Jew who happens to know a thing or two about Judaism 2804:14C:184:9392:81CE:A973:91A9:BD53 (talk) 02:20, 18 December 2021 (UTC)

Saying it is "a defining distinction" would be fair. Saying it is "the" defining distinction is wrong and misleading — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2804:14C:184:9392:81CE:A973:91A9:BD53 (talk) 02:23, 18 December 2021 (UTC)

I've changed "the" to "a", per your recommendation. Ibadibam (talk) 19:54, 16 February 2022 (UTC)

Neutrality Dispute

Messianic Judaism considers itself Jewish, but the introduction to this article asserts that it is Christian with Jewish influences, does this not violate NPOV (WP:RNPOV? This is also why The Church of LDS and Jehova Witnesses are stated as being Christian on their respective articles, even with objections from most mainstream/major denominations. Why should this be treated any different? If anything, should the intro mention that Messianic Judaism considers itself a Jewish sect at minimum? ChaoticTexan (talk) 04:23, 23 February 2022 (UTC)

Hello, ChaoticTexan. An acceptable Wikipedia article summarizes what reliable sources that are independent of the topic say about the topic. So, articles about religious groups and movements should mostly be based on what people like uninvolved scholars of comparative religion say about the religious topic. Perhaps the movements self identification can be mentioned somewhere in the body of the article, but it certainly should not be highlighted in the lead. The relevant policy is the Neutral point of view. If this policy is not followed carefully, then Wikipedia articles about religious groups would turn into tracts promoting those religious groups, and that is the opposite of encyclopedic coverage. Cullen328 (talk) 05:10, 23 February 2022 (UTC)

Thank you for the response Cullen328 I agree that it should not be highlighted in the lead (such as not placing it at the very top), although would it still be appropriate to reference a reliable source which makes mention of their self identification, and include it after the statement mentioning the denomination following Jewish traditions? I cannot think of a specific statement, but maybe along the lines of "According to <source>, Messianic Judaism describes itself as a Jewish religion, although it is considered by <source> to be <add statement on it being considered Christian>" ChaoticTexan (talk) 22:34, 23 February 2022 (UTC)

The first sentence of the fourth paragraph now reads "Adherents of Messianic Judaism believe that the movement is a sect of Judaism". Cullen328 (talk) 22:57, 23 February 2022 (UTC)

Which could use better sources, but I think it's worded accurately and neutrally as it is. Ibadibam (talk) 22:58, 23 February 2022 (UTC)

Thank you for the assistance ChaoticTexan (talk) 03:44, 27 February 2022 (UTC)

Messianic Judaism ≠ Jews for Jesus (Update)

Messianic Judaism denounces Jews for Jesus. The reason being, Jews for Jesus seek to convert Jews to Protestant Christianity, or Baptist, which totally rejects any adherence to Jewish life, law, and customs. Messianic Jews observe Jewish traditions along with their belief in who they call Yeshua (Jesus). It's a Jewish life unlike Jews for Jesus. 2603:6080:6D40:19F:621D:91FF:FECA:23B5 (talk) 03:57, 16 March 2021 (UTC)

There may be groups within the Messianic Jewish movement that denounce Jews for Jesus, but since the majority of reliable sources describe it as a Messianic Jewish organization, this article can't exclude it. Ibadibam (talk) 19:40, 16 February 2022 (UTC)

This information is totally and completely wrong!! Messianic jews ARE NOT christianity!! Gonzalezluz (talk) 18:22, 26 February 2022 (UTC)

I can't tell whether you're objecting to the comment at the top of this section or to something within the article itself. Either way, we're not really here to debate this question. Wikipedia presents information from reliable sources. If you have secondary, independent sources that support your assertion that Messianic Judaism does not include elements of Christianity, please provide them so they can be appropriately presented in the article. Ibadibam (talk) 08:33, 28 February 2022 (UTC)

Baptism

The distinction made between "tevila" and "mikveh" doesn't make sense, as they are not alternative terms for the same concept. "Tevila" means "immersion" or "baptism"; "mikveh" is the pool in which such immersion takes place. Both terms are widely used in "mainstream Judaism". Yitz711 (talk) 01:58, 26 July 2022 (UTC)yitz711

Messianic Judaism is not modern.

Messianic Judaism when one thinks seriously about it is not a new adjunct of 20th century Judaism. The apostles of Jesus and later Paul (Saul) believed that Jesus was the messiah. Furthermore, as they were all Jews and were members of what we call Judaism must mean they were Messianic Jews, and therefore, Messianic Judaism is at least over 2000 years old. 58.109.1.127 (talk) 12:49, 2 September 2022 (UTC)

I was going to say that this is simply how the term is defined, and then I stumbled across this: Messianic Judaism in Antiquity and in the Modern Era, which does indeed approach the term within the conceptual framework of Messianic trends throughout the ages, suggesting this article is missing history. Iskandar323 (talk) 16:40, 2 September 2022 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 20 November 2022

The preamble to this article is a Hate Page against a group 2,000 years old. It contains misinformation intentionally designed by Hate engineers. It is false as can be shown by legitimate Wikipedia articles. Genoway (talk) 10:04, 20 November 2022 (UTC)

Genoway, Messianic Judaism is only about fifty years old, not 2,000. Conflating this modern evangelical movement with any ancient religious movement is misguided and misinformed, at best. Furthermore, there's nothing actionable in this "edit request". We "Hate engineers" will continue writing neutral and verifiable articles according to the information contained in reliable sources. If you have any serious requests for changes according to Wikipedia policy, feel free to suggest them. But they should follow the form of "change X to Y", followed by a policy-based rationale for the change. Symmachus Auxiliarus (talk) 10:48, 20 November 2022 (UTC)

That is intentional misinformation.

MODERN Messianic Judaism is older than the Zionist movement by 2 years. 1894 vs 1896.

Medieval Messianic Judaism dates back to the same time as the false teacher and unforgiveable blasphemer of the Holy Spirit Rambam. And were burned at the stake by hate engineers like you.

As you said you are a Hate Engineer. God will judge you accordingly. Genoway (talk) 10:55, 20 November 2022 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 3 August 2022

Change "movement of Protestant Christianity" to "movement supported by Protestant Christianity" (reasoning is that many Messianic Jews do not identify with Protestantism and in fact have issues with it) Stevie (talk) 15:29, 3 August 2022 (UTC)

Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 16:36, 3 August 2022 (UTC)

I don't think I should have to provide additional sources for this change. It is supported by the sources already given and it is the wording of the Wikipedia article that is wrong. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Stevieoberg (talk • contribs) 13:03, 3 August 2022 (UTC)

 Not done: Stevieoberg, welcome to Wikipedia! Please make sure to sign your posts when you reply on talk pages and never remove messages added by other editors. You are currently making the claim that many Messianic Jews do not identify with Protestantism and in fact have issues with it to support your desired change. Scottish is requesting that you provide sourcing to support this claim. If the sourcing already exists in the article, please simply state which sources from the article are relevant. The onus is on you to provide such sources so an editor can review them for accuracy; it is not on an editor to review all of the sources on the page to see if they support your edit. Cheers! —Sirdog (talk) 23:02, 7 August 2022 (UTC)

Well show me the citation that supports the current wording; as far as I see, there isn't any. And I don't see why I should have to provide citation to correct something that isn't even supported by the current citations to begin with. Stevie (talk) 22:04, 30 November 2022 (UTC)

Bias in the page, or misconceptions?

I'm not sure if this is worth mentioning, but the current page states that Messianic Judaism is "...a modernist and syncretic movement of Protestant Christianity that incorporates some elements of Judaism and other Jewish traditions into evangelicalism." This sounds like a bias, or misconception. Messianic Jews themselves state that Messianic Judaism is a form of Judaism, and not that it is a sect or group of Protestantism, specifically Evangelicalism. I acknowledge it states that Messianic Jews consider themselves to be Jews, but the article makes it User:AerodynamicWalrus|AerodynamicWalrusseem like it is a fact that Messianic Judaism IS a group of Protestantism. Another issue in the page is that it brings up the founding of Messianic Judaism, which (I think) states it as a fact that it was developed only in the 60's and 70's, when it is much, much older. (What could be called "Messianic Judaism" roughly dated back to at least early Jewish groups such as the Nazarenes for example, and other early messianic groups, and also later groups that revived (what we could call "Messianic Judaism") in the 1800's.) AerodynamicWalrus (talk) 02:05, 24 December 2022 (UTC)

If you want to improve this article, AerodynamicWalrus, then you need to bring forth actual high quality reliable sources that support the changes that you want to make. You also need to explain, in detail, why the references to reliable sources currently in the article do not support the current content. Wikipedia has very little interest in repeating what article subjects say about themselves. instead, we summarize what sources entirely independent of the topic write about the topic. Scholars of comparative religion would be the best type of sources in an article like this. Cullen328 (talk) 06:33, 24 December 2022 (UTC)

I read through the article, and I don't see that it is "biased". It is descriptive, based on sources independent of the Messianic movement. However, to satisfy my own mind as to whether Messianic Jews are either Christian or Jewish, I looked up the three Messianic Jewish congregations in my area. Two of them meet in Baptist churches, and the third meets in a warehouse behind a home improvement store. So they are clearly, in my area at least, associated with evangelical Protestants, even if they don't want to use that term for themselves. Certainly, my own personal research can't be used in the article, but it satifies me that the article is not biased. Eastcote (talk) 20:38, 26 December 2022 (UTC)

Reference cleanup and refactor

The references, while extenstive and thorough, could use some cleanup. There are also multiple references to the same items for which we don't reuse the citation. Unless there are strong arguments otherwise, sometime in the next few days I plan on reviewing and cleaning up the citations, as I have done multiple times before. I am considering switching the Bibliography into a Works Cited so that we can put websites into the section and take advantage of short footnotes more often. Thank you. -- Avi (talk) 13:40, 29 December 2022 (UTC)

I have done so and will put journals there. Webcites used frequently (like Simmons 2004) may go there as well, but single-use websites may stay solely in the reference list. Also, I will (slowly) go through the reference names and convert them to author-date format where it makes sense for ease of finding them. -- Avi (talk) 22:36, 3 January 2023 (UTC)

A bit missing, surely?

What about all the debate - well, not really a debate, there are statements and protestations against those statements - about whether 'messianic judaism' is a set of true beliefs at all, or merely a bunch of lies designed to proselytise with? Almost everyone in the world, whether Christian or Jewish, believes so-called Messianic Jews are actually Christians faking ties to Judaism in order to convert Jews. It's why the movement has been condemned as dishonest by organised Christian churches as well as all actual Jewish movements. 2A00:23C5:CF17:FD01:5401:5000:A4D5:3F81 (talk) 12:56, 10 February 2023 (UTC)

I'm not sure what you are really asking here. There is a section that discusses the fact that Messianic "Jews" do in fact adhere to the basic set of Christian beliefs, and that they have been accused of simply being a trap for gullible Jews. Eastcote (talk) 22:36, 10 February 2023 (UTC)

Jerusalem Council: removal from article due to being defunct

It appears that the organization is defunct, and their website is usurped by what appears to be Thai spam. Unless there is no other source for a statement, I will be removing it and its mentions from the article. Thank you. -- Avi (talk) 18:10, 29 December 2022 (UTC)

Unfortunately, they were a prime source for much of the article's material. Thankfully, most of it was archived by the Wayback Machine. -- Avi (talk) 22:34, 3 January 2023 (UTC)

xxx 103.151.170.197 (talk) 05:31, 10 April 2023 (UTC)

Tim Hegg (Who?)

This is who Tim Hegg is: https://torahresource.com/about/torahresource-staff/

Original article on “One Law” (or “One Torah”) theology: https://torahresource.com/whats-name-thoughts-one-law/

Defending One Torah Theology: https://torahresource.com/about/one-torah/ Hiller84 (talk) 18:25, 2 May 2023 (UTC)

OK, so Tim Hegg is a Baptist with a beard and a kippah. He has a BA from the (Baptist) Cedarville College, MDiv and MTh from Northwest Baptist Seminary, and he taught at Western Baptist College for a few years. Why don't you edit the article to explain who he is? Eastcote (talk) 12:39, 3 May 2023 (UTC)

Premise of entry is incorrect

The introduction to this entry isn’t correct. A Messianic Jew was a term that appeared in the 1800s and references a Jew who accepted Jesus as a the Messiah. They were not Christians, they were Jews. https://www.bethimmanuel.org/articles/what-messianic-jew. Ctysick (talk) 13:54, 17 December 2023 (UTC)

How is JfJ contested as MJ?

They are the most widely known MJs! 82.36.70.45 (talk) 20:14, 8 February 2024 (UTC)

As someone who knew Moishe Rosen, and Worked for JFJ in the 70's, I can tell you JFJ is not a MJ organization, though they had a symbiotic relationship with the messianic jewish movement. JFJ identifies completely as being a Christian organization, where as most Messianic Jews do not consider themselves part of the Christian religion, and consider Christianity to be a Gentile distortion of the Messianic Faith.

The reason the non-messianic jewish community associates MJ with JFJ. is strictly because of the simplistic association of belief in Jesus with the name of that organization. 76.94.52.108 (talk) 19:40, 11 February 2024 (UTC)

I see, thanks for the explanation. Although it’s hard to see how all MJ who believe in the Trinity wouldn’t be also Christians. 82.36.70.45 (talk) 19:48, 15 February 2024 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 21 February 2024

Change "(despit all major Jewish groups)" to "(despite all major Jewish groups)". 184.56.226.103 (talk) 12:00, 21 February 2024 (UTC)

 Done Sincerely, Guessitsavis (she/they) (Talk) 12:59, 21 February 2024 (UTC)

“currently”

The article uses “currently” incorrectly. The correct form is “As of 2015, …” (or whenever the outdated information was collected). 2600:1700:8B40:4660:2C71:98AD:5014:5DCD (talk) 08:52, 22 June 2023 (UTC)

Are you referring to reference 25? Taz On The Free Encyclopedia (talk) 06:45, 26 February 2024 (UTC)

Correct History

Messianic Judaism is not modern. Yeshua and his followers were all Jews. Reference BIBLE, DEAD SEA SCROLLS. JEWISH history. Even Jewish historians that are orthodox have recorded ALL of Yeshua’s followers were Jews. This is why Pharisees and Sadducee's were so upset. Because they felt Yeshua was leading the Jewish people astray Kew9543 (talk) 13:41, 19 March 2024 (UTC)

I have never seen 'Messianic Judaism' used to refer to Jesus's followers or historical Christians. I have only seen it used to describe more modern groups (to be fair, my experience with the label has mostly been people insulting it). Given that it refers to a modern religious groups and not to a historical one, I see no reason why the history as it is currently written is incorrect (Though some parts of the article - specifically the first paragraph - seem to have a citation problem).

Can you provide a source for where the Dead sea scrolls talk about Jesus? I have found no sources saying such and a one (possibly two if National Geographic would let me read the article proper and not just the excerpt on the search results page. Oh well) saying the opposite. I was under the impression that they mostly predate him. Sgeress (talk) 05:15, 25 March 2024 (UTC)

The word "Christ" in Christian is the anglicized word for "Khristós" the Greek word for "Messiah". The Christian Bible's first half is the Old Testament: The Hebrew Bible. The Catholic Church used politics and misinformation to culturally separate Christianity from it's Jewish nature, but that was clearly forced. Messianic Judaism is literally the original Christianity by any rationality based on knowledge of historical Judaism and Christianity, even if the English term itself is relatively modern. 24.95.39.54 (talk) 11:02, 5 May 2024 (UTC)

The Greek word "Khristos" was used to translate Hebrew "Moshiach", Messiah". It is a title, not a person's name. Judaism is, any rabbi will tell you, a "Messianic" religion, because Jews look forward to the Messiah. All Jews in the 1st century were "Messianic", just as they are today. None of this means in any way that references to a "Messiah" in the Old Testament and other Jewish literature are referring to the man named Yeshua in the 1st century. "Messianic Jews" as a term for Jewish "followers of Yeshua" is a modern development, mostly since the 1970s. This is already well-documented in the article. Eastcote (talk) 23:09, 6 May 2024 (UTC)

Cultural appropriation

The article makes no mention of Messianic Judaism as a Christian cultural appropriation of Judaism. This should be mentioned within the article. Even the section of Messianic Judaism's reception among Jews makes no mention of cultural appropriation. Bohemian Baltimore (talk) 11:20, 30 March 2023 (UTC)

Is it even possible to culturally appropriate religions? Aren't they sort of open-source platforms? Iskandar323 (talk) 11:28, 30 March 2023 (UTC)

Certainly. Jewishness/Judaism isn't only a religion, but also a culture and ethnicity. Cultural appropriation has also been discussed in the context of Islam, Hinduism, Buddhism, etc. A Google search for 'Jewish cultural appropriation' yields over 2 million results. Bohemian Baltimore (talk) 14:24, 30 March 2023 (UTC)

If only the Sumerians were around to state their case ... everyone's stolen their shit. Iskandar323 (talk) 16:53, 30 March 2023 (UTC)

100% agree with that statement. Ctysick (talk) 13:48, 17 December 2023 (UTC)

No, very few religions could be likened to such. Most of the world's religions have no great interest in converts, or spreading themselves, or converting the world to their ways. Just a couple do. SomerIsland (talk) 05:11, 20 December 2023 (UTC)

Messianic Judaism is a legitimate branch of Judaism. Its followers follow the Torah and worship the God of Israel. The verses that support Jesus as our Messiah are present. Ladston772 (talk) 04:44, 22 April 2023 (UTC)

Nope. Messianic Jews are evangelical protestants. 23.31.243.57 (talk) 15:27, 27 April 2023 (UTC)

Yeah you are not Jews. Its clearly evangelical Christians attempting to fool people into thinking they are Jews. 2600:1700:BFC0:C320:41EE:78A6:D3EB:7239 (talk) 02:54, 10 September 2023 (UTC)

Source? Taz On The Free Encyclopedia (talk) 06:45, 26 February 2024 (UTC)

So long as adherence to the Talmud is not a requirement for a sect to be "a Judaism" then Messianic Judaism is as you say a legitimate branch. Another branch which does not adhere to the Talmud is the Karaites; they also do not follow the rulings of the Sanhedrin. As for having decided someone is the Messiah, the followers of Menachem Mendel Schneerson are still considered a legitimate branch. Many who claim Yeshua as their Messiah make themselves distinct from Judaism but those also do not claim to be Messianic Jews. BarakYirok (talk) 00:44, 17 June 2024 (UTC)

Is that not a matter of opinion (Whether something is cultural appropriation.) in this case, since Messianic Jews consider themselves to be Jewish, not to be non-Jews who act Jewish? Taz On The Free Encyclopedia (talk) 06:44, 26 February 2024 (UTC)