Talk:Melgiri Pandit

Recent edits

I have restored the cleaned-up version with a few changes explained below.

• I left out the "who was defeated by the Mughals and executed by Aurengzeb in 1689" from the lede sentence, since those details concern Sambaji and not the article's subject.
• A citation is needed for Melgiri Pandit being Sambhaji's panditrao. The EB article, which has been cited in some versions of the article, does not mention Melgiri at all but I can imagine that factoid being true. Ditto for the "presumed dead in 1686 battle" bit, which too needs to be verified or removed.

Additional notes:

• User:Neuroprofessor: I am glad you have created an account, which should facilitate communication. However, since quite a few editors have spent time to clean up the article from the bizarre version you contributed to as an IP, I'd highly recommend that you propose intended changes and gain consensus here before editing the article any further.
• Do others have a problem opening the this PDF ? Not necessarily the best of sources, but could provide useful leads.

Abecedare (talk) 16:32, 15 October 2013 (UTC)

"Maratha Empire" vs. "kingdom"

There have been repeated attempts by two users (claming to be experts on Maratha history of some sort) to change the term "Maratha Empire" to "kingdom." I will assume this change is out of ignorance and not page-based sabotage. Therefore, I have provided you with an exhaustive list below of all primary sources that state definitively that Emperor Shivaji founded the "Maratha Empire" (not a "kingdom" as you so quaintly put it) in 1674. (note: these sources include both WASP "Westerners" and South Asian "Indians", so both ethnic perspectives deem the Maratha Empire to be an "empire" and not a "kingdom" in 1674):

Kincaid, D. (1937). The Grand Rebel: An Impression of Shivaji, Founder of the Maratha Empire. Collins.

Talwalker, C. (1996). Shivaji's Army and Other “Natives” in Bombay. Comparative Studies of South Asia, Africa and the Middle East, 16(2), 114-122.

Cooper, R. G. (2003). The anglo-maratha campaigns and the contest for india: the struggle for control of the south asian military economy. Cambridge University Press.

Kincaid, C. A., & lavanta Pārasnīsa, D. B. (1986). Comprehensive History of the Maratha Empire. Anmol Publications.

Nadkarnia, R. V. (1966). The Rise and Fall of the Maratha Empire. Bombay: Popular Prakashan.

Takakhav, N. S. (1921). Life of Shivaji Maharaj: Founder of the maratha empire.

Ranade, M. G. (1900). Rise of the Maratha power (Vol. 1). Punalekar & Company.

These books are neither reliable nor modern. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 13:45, 15 October 2013 (UTC)

Oh, I'd say Cooper is both modern and reliable. He never refers to Shivaji as emperor, only as a king or a warrior king. He does say "we find that Shivaji's accomplishments have been 'made-over' or expropriated by those seeking to enhance the cultural or political objectives they advocate. During the twentieth century Indian Nationalists, Hindu separatists and Maharashtrian patriots all had reason to present selective portraits of Shivaji's military profile in history. Chhatrapati' Shivaji is often referred to as the 'warrior king' and credited with founding the Maratha Empire." So he doesn't say Shivaji founded the Maratha empire, just that nationalists, etc credit him with founding it. He also writes 'empire' with inverted commas in a few places. Dougweller (talk) 15:42, 15 October 2013 (UTC)

Sorry, Doug, I started at the bottom of that list and by the middle my eyes began to glaze over. That actually is a good reference. Here some more modern sources:

• Eaton, Richard M. (2005), A Social History of the Deccan, 1300-1761: Eight Indian Lives, Cambridge University Press, p. 179, ISBN 978-0-521-25484-7, retrieved 15 October 2013, Quote: The emperor first concentrated on Bijapur and Golkonda, which he conquered and annexed in 1686 and 1687 respectively. Then he turned to the Marathas, whose principal hill-forts he sought to reduce, one by one. ... (which) served as power-bases for ambitious chieftains seeking to intercept that trade. ... The most successful of these rajas was doubtless Shivaji, who upon intercepting Bijapur's trade with the coast established a new kingdom based on hill-forts that he either appropriated from Bijapur or built anew. When his first son Sambhaji succeeded to the Maratha throne in 1680, Shivaji's principal fort of Raigarh remained the kingdom's capital. There, too, resided Sambhaji's younger half-brother Rajaram and the latter's several wives, including Tarabai. But with the fall of the last Deccan sultanate in 1687, the Marathas had to face the full brunt of Mughal power. In that year Tarabai's father, Hambir Rao, died in a battle with one of the emperor's generals. Then in February 1689 Sambhaji himself was captured, taken to Aurangzeb's camp, and brutally executed. (p 179)
• Smith, Anthony D (2013), Nationalism and Modernism, Routledge, p. 102, ISBN 978-1-134-92334-2, retrieved 15 October 2013, Quote: Good examples of this political activism are provided by Tilak's instrumental use of the Hindu revival in Marathi festivals such as the worship of the elephant god Ganesh or the chieftain Shivaji's birthday, ...
• Grewal, J. S. (2006), The state and society in medieval India, Oxford University Press, p. 80, ISBN 978-0-19-566720-2, retrieved 15 October 2013, Quote: In the latter half of the seventeenth century, the rise of the Maratha chieftain Shivaji was to prove a portentous circumstance. Shivaji began to acquire independent power in western Maharashtra on the border of Mughal and Bijapur territories. The sack of Surat (1664) was followed by an enforced accommodation with the Mughals that proved abortive; and in 1674 Shivaji crowned himself at Raigarh. By the time he died (1680), he had carved for himself a kingdom comprising a long belt along the western coast and a detached portion in Tamil Nadu. He owed much of his success to his use of Maratha peasant-soldiers (bargis). (page 80) Will add more later. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 16:11, 15 October 2013 (UTC)

Thanks. Dougweller (talk) 16:29, 15 October 2013 (UTC)

Stepping back: does the Empire vs kingdom bit even need to be an issue for this article ? In the current version the only way the concept is alluded to is through reference to Sambaji as a "Maratha king" with (as per my recent edit) a the piped link to Maratha Empire. Shouldn't the underlying debate be at the talk page of that article... if someone is (fool)hardy enough to poke that beehive :) Abecedare (talk) 16:57, 15 October 2013 (UTC)

The Maratha Empire used a Jstor article that says "SHIVA JI Maharaj. the founder of the Maratha kingdom in the 17th century." and another which only calls him "head of a rival state" to source him being crowned emperor. I think it started with using the sources correctly, but nationalist editors often ignore the source and just change the text to what they want it to be. The Maratha related articles are a mess. Dougweller (talk) 17:52, 15 October 2013 (UTC)

If memory serves me right, and yes, I know that fickle memory is no substitute for good sources, the term generally used is "The Marathas" with no kingdom or empire attached. I'll leave you with this sentence from Maratha The Maratha Empire was an Indian imperial power that existed from 1674 to 1818 just so you know the scale of the task ahead of you! --regentspark (comment) 18:27, 15 October 2013 (UTC)

@RegentsPark: Yup, it is usually "the Marathas," and typically they mean the Marathas in the period 1740 to 1805. (The Marathas didnt expand their territories until the 1740.) Shivaji, is usually described as a chieftain, deshmukh, or raja (little king). So, even if you are willing to grant that the Marathas in the late 18th-centry had an "empire," Shivaji didn't found the empire. The main power brokers in the later "empire," in any case, were the Peshwa prime ministers, not the figurehead kings. @Abecedare:, @Dougweller: As you point out, Maratha Empire and Shivaji are the main problem pages. We will need to fix them, but it will take several people to do it. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 21:32, 15 October 2013 (UTC)

"Maratha Empire" vs. "kingdom"

This entire group of edits by Dougweller and his sockpuppets constitutes page-based sabotage with some sort of agenda. Folwer states "these books are neither reliable nor modern." Since when are the following publications from the twentieth century not deemed "modern"? And what are your qualifications in deeming these sources "unreliable"? Do you have a PhD in South Asian history? Ridiculous.

Kincaid, D. (1937). The Grand Rebel: An Impression of Shivaji, Founder of the Maratha Empire. Collins.

Talwalker, C. (1996). Shivaji's Army and Other “Natives” in Bombay. Comparative Studies of South Asia, Africa and the Middle East, 16(2), 114-122.

Cooper, R. G. (2003). The anglo-maratha campaigns and the contest for india: the struggle for control of the south asian military economy. Cambridge University Press.

Kincaid, C. A., & lavanta Pārasnīsa, D. B. (1986). Comprehensive History of the Maratha Empire. Anmol Publications.

Nadkarnia, R. V. (1966). The Rise and Fall of the Maratha Empire. Bombay: Popular Prakashan.

Takakhav, N. S. (1921). Life of Shivaji Maharaj: Founder of the maratha empire.

Ranade, M. G. (1900). Rise of the Maratha power (Vol. 1). Punalekar & Company.
— Preceding unsigned comment added by Neuroprofessor (talk • contribs) 02:23, 16 October 2013 (UTC)

Have I upset you in some way? Whatever I've done it appears to have made it difficult for you to read the posts above yours. We've discussed a couple, and I'm fairly sure 1900, 1921, and 1937 are clearly not modern. As for Nadkarnia, I find "*Nadkarni R.V. ( 30 Aug. 1921): He has devoted his life to the study and

promotion of the Co-operative movement, and has been a veteran teacher and activist." Elsewhere I can see that he wrote quite a bit about the Co-operative movement - maybe he's a reliable source for that, but not this. Don't call long-standing experienced editors sock puppets by the way (or accuse them of sabotage), that can get you blocked. Dougweller (talk) 06:24, 16 October 2013 (UTC)

Incontrovertible evidence re the Maratha Empire issue

Citing Rorty's "Fragments of Maratha History: Lusso-Dutch Presence in the Deccan":

"Shivaji's coronation in 1674 is a epoch-making event in the history of the Marathas. The English envoy, Henry Oxendon, the interpreter of the English, Narayan Shenvi,and the Dutch merchant of Vengurla, Abrahamle Feber, have left descriptions of this great event."

Then according to Riddick's "The history of British India: a chronology":

"June 1674. On behalf of the English East India Company. Henry Oxenden obtained a treaty with Shivaji granting the Company trading rights with the Marathas."

The documented eye-witness accounts of both a English envoy and a Dutch merchant at the coronation of Shivaji in 1674 (emphasis on "coronation") and a consequent trade treaty with the English constitutes sufficient and incontrovertible proof that the Maratha Empire was first established in 1674 (albeit its expansion out of the Deccan did not occur until the 1740's). So, please cease your ridiculous attempts at revisionist history. It is, in one word, pathetic. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Neuroprofessor (talk • contribs) 02:55, 16 October 2013 (UTC)

That is was called a king is not being contested. Your sources don't say he established an empire, he established a kingdom. Although your 2nd source doesn't even say that. Hm, nowhere does Riddick call him anything but "Martaha leader" or refer to a coronation.. Or an empire, he refers to the "Maratha Confederacy". How can a source like this be used as "incontrovertible evidence" - if it is, it's that any coronation was small beer and that it was called a confederacy, not an empire. Dougweller (talk) 05:24, 16 October 2013 (UTC)

S. N. Sadasivan's A Social History of India: "function. The title of Kshatriya Kulavamsa Sri Raja Sivaji Chhatrapati was conferred on the Maratha conqueror. The head of the English factory at Surat, Henry Oxenden was an eye-witness to the grand and glittering celebration. Oxenden who presented Sivaji with a diamond ring, noted that he was not at any time allowed by the Brahmins to attend to any other business than the religious ceremonies and the talks pertaining to them. The validity of the prohibitively costly coronation of Sivaji according to the vedic rites, was questioned by a Bengali Tantrik priest by name Nischhal Puri Goswami and a few inauspicious occurrences and mishaps that had taken place within weeks of the coronation, he attributed to the inadequacy of the vedic scheme that Gaga Bhatta followed

to propitiate the spirits and goblins. On September 24, 1674 Nischhal Puri conducted a second coronation of Sivaji in accordance with the Tantrik rites after which paradoxically mischance only multiplied." Kshatriya Kulavamsa (shouldn't this be a redirect to Maratha titles? - or technically a merge as that article doesn't mention this title) means "leader of the Kshatriya", right? Dougweller (talk) 05:41, 16 October 2013 (UTC)

The pdf file

Looks like at least two of us can't access it. Dougweller (talk) 06:03, 16 October 2013 (UTC)

The link, which apparently is to Chapter 9 of some gazetteer, is dead and the "pdf" is a 0 byte file (which I kept trying to download and open using different software :) ). If User:Neuroprofessor can point out the citation details (title, publisher, year etc) of the original publication, it may be worth looking into since it is likely to be reliable for basic facts such as whether Melgiri Pandit served as a panditrao etc. Abecedare (talk) 13:21, 16 October 2013 (UTC)

Additional incontrovertible evidence re the Maratha Empire issue

The page has now been locked to shut down debate on the basis of only one published work by Profesor Eaton - a highly suggestive indicator of page-based sabotage by the editors involved. The title of "editor" does not make one an authority on the subject matter at hand nor does it protect you from justifiable accusations of page-based sabotage. My justification is stated below and is purely based on established sources in the field (feel free to look them up):

"In the interim, much of the coastal region had been conquered by Shivaji, who went on to establish the powerful Maratha Empire in 1674, which remained powerful till 1818." (Jasdanwalla, F. (2011). African Settlers on the West Coast of India: The Sidi Elite of Janjira. African and Asian Studies, 10(1), 41-58.)

"During the time of the Maratha Empire, 1674 to 1818, Pune served as their headquarter and the city has given India some of its most unforgettable personalities such as Shivaji..." (Friestedt, A., & Sjövall, K. (2006). Ecologically sustainable housing and transporting in Pune, India: Ekologiskt hållbar hus-och transportplanering i Pune, Indien (Doctoral dissertation, Jönköping University).

"The Maratha Empire was located at the very peak of South Asia. It existed from 1674 to 1818 and was founded by Shivaji." (Šarafínová, L. (2007). Cultural and Political Issues of India as a Former British Colony.)

"Under the leadership of Chhatrapati Shivaji, the Maratha Empire was founded in 1674." (Anderson, S., Francois, P., & Kotwal, A. (2011). One Kind of Democracy.)

"Shivaji (1630-80) the founder of the Maratha Empire" (Bendrey, V. S. (1938). THE BHAVANI SWORD OF SHIVAJI THE GREAT. Journal of the Royal Society of Arts, 86(4482), 1142-1144.)

— Preceding unsigned comment added by Neuroprofessor (talk • contribs) 02:44, 17 October 2013 (UTC)

This is really silly. What does this have to do with this particular article? Shiavji is considered the historical founder - but when he died it wasn't anything that could be called an empire - 50,000 square miles and 4.1% of the subcontinent, and irrelevant to an article about a man about whom all we know is " Shambhuji's diwan Melgiri Pandit reached Bijapur". Dougweller (talk) 14:17, 17 October 2013 (UTC)

AfD

So, essentially we have only one reference for Melgiri Pandit, the 1930 book of Jadunath Sarkar, and all Sarkar says is that Melgiri was Sambhaji's diwan. The rest of the sentences are in blunt language, "a pack of lies," cited to sources that mention Melgiri nowhere. Candidate for AfD? Fowler&fowler«Talk» 13:40, 17 October 2013 (UTC)

PS The post-1947 State gazetteer's compiled by copying the old British gazetteers with a nationalist sentence or tidbit inserted here and there, are not reliable. The old gazetteers of the Bombay Presidency, which are not necessarily reliable either for their history, don't mention Melgiri. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 13:40, 17 October 2013 (UTC)

All I can find in Google books is " Shambhuji's diwan Melgiri Pandit reached Bijapur" or very slight variations, nothing in Google Scholar. Dougweller (talk) 14:18, 17 October 2013 (UTC)

AfD seems appropriate. I've cleaned up the refs but perhaps it needs more cleaning - for example, uncited biographical information should go. --regentspark (comment) 14:22, 17 October 2013 (UTC)