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About a year ago, "North Cyprus" was included in the article. This is an illegal state created by Turkey after the invasion and occupation of almost half the island of Cyprus. This state is not recognized internationally. The only reason it was added was pure propaganda in a totally unrelated article. This part of the geography of the Mediterranean is fully defined by the island of Cyprus that includes north and south. There is absolutely no value to mentioning this "state" other than creating impressions of legitimacy to a random reader who came to read about geography and not questionable politics. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Iathien (talk • contribs) 15:56, 20 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]
The insistence of users like Denisarona and Mr.Ollie about including Egypt and Libya as countries that have anything to do with the Sea of Crete (which is situated NORTH of Crete in the Aegean sea (!)), shows clearly that they have an agenda. The idea that Crete doesn't exist (!) and that the Sea of Crete borders Egypt and Libya can only have a Turkish origin. It is well known that Turkey signed an exclusive economic zone agreement with Libya assuming that Crete doesn't exist (so Turkey shares waters with Libya, accordingly). I am sure that ordinary readers are already laughing by reading this. This is how ridiculous and laughable a wikipedia article can be, when people who edit it have an agenda. This a very serious matter and somebody who has minimal respect for this site should do something about it. (Update: Later there was an attempt to include Turkey -- of course -- as a country that has anything to do with the Sea of Crete...)— Preceding unsigned comment added by Iathien (talk • contribs) 00:03, 26 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]
YOU are the TURKISH propagandist, little man. Any normal person knows where Crete is and can read a map like an ordinary person. The Sea of Crete is north of the island of Crete, Turkey is far away, if you can read a map. Instead of trying to steal other people's property and vandalizing wikipedia, I would suggest the turkish people to be just normal (I don't say civilized, this is impossible). Iathien (talk) 16:40, 6 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Perhaps you should read WP:NPA. Being of Greek descent and speaking Greek does not count as WP:COI. I believe that my contributions to this talk page and to the article are well-founded.
As for substance, I see that you have re-added Turkey as a marginal country of the Sea of Crete with a footnote to Britannica, but the Britannica article says nothing about Turkey. See WP:INTEGRITY and WP:OR. --Macrakis (talk) 19:48, 6 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
As pointed out in the edit notes, which you somehow seem to have neglected to read/. The Britannica describes the sea as being the southern part of the Aegean. The Southern part of the Agean is bounced by Turkey to the east. My Integrity is intact. Yours has a suspicion of COI.--Kitchen Knife (talk) 20:20, 6 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
The fact that a tiny part of the East Aegean belongs to Turkey does NOT mean that half of the Aegean belongs to Turkey. Nor that half of any sub-sea of the Aegean belongs to Turkey. It is common sense, it is simple GEOGRAPHY, but you are here for obviously other reasons. Iathien (talk) 21:13, 7 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, the Sea of Crete is in the southern part of the Aegean, and parts of the Aegean border Turkey. It is WP:SYNTH (and logically fallacious) to conclude from that that the Sea of Crete borders Turkey.
A more pertinent source gives Karpathos as the eastern limit of the Sea of Crete.[1] The closest that Karpathos and Turkey come is about 90km. --Macrakis (talk) 19:57, 6 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I think some person of authority should ban these wikipedia vandals with Turkish agenda from editing. If you know somebody, please let them know about them. Iathien (talk) 21:08, 7 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
The Britannica article does NOT include the word "Turkey" but it includes the word "Greece". All other conclusions are your opinion that has zero weight, given your agenda and purpose. Iathien (talk) 21:14, 7 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
There is no personal attack in giving "zero weight" in somebody's arbitrary "opinion", that is obviously driven by fanaticism and lack of common sense. If somebody insists that Turkey borders Morocco, in order to make Turkey "great", how much weight would you give it? Exactly zero. Iathien (talk) 16:54, 9 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Once again, we have an attempt to pass political propaganda in a geography article. If you check the other parts of the same topic you will understand. Originally, they tried to somehow "define" the Mediterranean sea using an non-existent illegal state (North Cyprus), not recognized by anybody, although the island of Cyprus was obviously enough for any definition. Now it got even more ridiculous. They entered an "Exclusive Economic Zone" for this illegal state. Well, I don't have to argue much here. The term EEZ applies to ONLY RECOGNIZED STATES BY INTERNATIONAL LAW. The EEZ is an international-law-related term by itself. As such, illegal, not recognized states cannot have an EEZ BY DEFINITION. It's that simple. Iathien (talk) 17:15, 10 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
It's pretty clear you're tying yourself up in tendentious nonsense here: the EEV is a legal concept that makes sense for modern states whether you recognize them or not. It's defined and not qualitatively distinct from other states: sometimes an EEV is respected by other states, and sometimes it's not. Remsense ‥ 论20:19, 10 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
You are totally wrong. Give us examples of a recognized Exclusive Economic Zone of ANY internationally not recognized state. What you are saying is the definition of nonsense. There is no legal definition of "modern state". You just made this up. There are either internationally recognized states or not. Iathien (talk) 00:10, 11 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
This is such a trivial case... Really amusing. Copying Wikipedia:
"An exclusive economic zone (EEZ), as prescribed by the 1982 United Nations Convention on the Law of the Sea, is an area of the sea in which a sovereign state has exclusive rights regarding the exploration and use of marine resources, including energy production from water and wind."
And
"International law defines sovereign states as having a permanent population, defined territory, a government not under another, and the capacity to interact with other states."
The entity "North Cyprus" cannot interact with other states because it is not recognized. Also, it is an area occupied by Turkey, so it is also a government under another government. So it is BY DEFINITION not a sovereign state, thus, BY DEFINITION it has no EEZ. Iathien (talk) 00:32, 11 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I don't really think it's the best use of our time for me to try rehashing a consistent theory of geopolitics from the ground up here, so I'll just cut to the chase and cite a source about Northern Cyprus's EEZ. From Krause, Joachim; Bruns, Sebastian, eds. (2015), Routledge Handbook of Naval Strategy and Security, Routledge, p. 122, ISBN978-1-317-55537-7:
The missing political solution to the continued Greek–Turkish conflict over Cyprus and its linkage to the Aegean dispute, the non-recognition of the EU member Cyprus by Turkey, the intensified cooperation between Cyprus and Israel as well as the exploration of its EEZ by Cyprus lead to tensions in Greek–Turkish and Turkish–Israeli relations. [...] In the case of Cyprus, [Turkey] dismisses the UNCLOS standard that even inhabited islands have the right to a CS or EEZ, while Turkey recognizes the CS of Northern Cyprus and supports Turkish Cypriot claims for a disproportionately large part of Cyprus’s CS and EEZ.
This articulates that Northern Cyprus claims an EEZ, even if it's not recognized by other states. I don't really see a reason to exclude them from a list like this in any case. Remsense ‥ 论01:38, 11 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
So you failed to give us an example of a recognized EEZ of a non-recognized entity. Simply because, by definition, EEZ is an international-law term defined only for internationally recognized entities. If I declare an independent state around my beach house, and if I claim EEZ, will you include me in the list? If we start creating artificial reality based on random "claims", the entire Wikipedia project will go down the tubes. Based on Wikipedia's own definitions I gave above, the inclusion of this non-entity in the list of EEZ is simply wrong. This is the reason to exclude it and I hope you see it. Iathien (talk) 01:07, 12 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Since you're forcing me to diagram it out, an EEZ is just the concept of a state asserting a more limited but exclusive set of rights in nautical territory that extends further beyond their territorial waters. This concept obviously doesn't require any other polity to agree or to see the situation the same way, and for you to insist that it does is mystifying to me. You seem to be unaware of how we treat these subjects, as we don't adhere to the same list of entities that any particular state acknowledges or does not acknowledge. It would be inane to pretend the Northern Cyprus government does not exist in some form—for argument's sake, I will concede happily that it is nothing but a Turkish puppet state, it's still a government that controls this territory and says it's claiming these areas. We obviously have to make fully clear the obvious reality that these claims are not seen as legitimate by anyone else but Turkey, and are mostly ineffectual, but to pretend they don't exist is not justifiable, and is frankly clearly tendentious. Remsense ‥ 论01:24, 12 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I have rested my case long ago, based on the definition of EEZ (that you can find in Wikipedia) that is valid ONLY for sovereign states. And based on the definition of a sovereign state. You cannot take a definition that was ONLY created for and ONLY applies to the above entities and apply it wherever you like. THIS is tendentious. I would advise you to stop with characterizations and see reality. If "claims" are enough, the concept of an encyclopedia doesn't exist. Maybe we list Trump as a winner of the 2020 elections because he claims it? There are undeniable facts and crystal-clear definitions of terms and "claims" cannot change them. EEZ is a very well defined term and "claims" cannot change this definition. Iathien (talk) 23:14, 12 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
You've done no such thing. You've entered this conversation unilaterally assuming very specific justifications and definitions on terms that are totally your own and have no basis in how secondary sources, like the one I've just cited above, speak about the world—which is what we write based on, not our personal a priori truths. You have not articulated why an unrecognized state cannot claim an EEZ and act accordingly. You have insisted only on what I will try to describe as an a priori assumption that legal concepts like the EEZ are somehow the sole property of their original inventors and cannot make sense thereafter? In effect, you're engaging in a game of magic words, and if we actually look at what sources say as is what editors actually do on Wikipedia, you will find that it's not impossible to talk about Northern Cyprus's claims and its EEZ, and we can indeed use concepts where they apply instead of merely where we have permitted them to apply. Remsense ‥ 论23:25, 12 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
It does not seem like we're really able to make progress ourselves, since this seems more or less solely about excluding a mention of Northern Cyprus from the article regardless of what context it appears in. Would you consider carrying on this discussion with others at the NPOV noticeboard? I would really prefer not to go to a mediated one-on-one dispute resolution, but I will do so if you insist on that. Remsense ‥ 论00:25, 13 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
As I said, I have rested my case and I have nothing more to say. I reply because you keep coming back to this. Things are crystal clear but for some suspicious reason you deny to see them. I gave you all definitions and you don't want to understand. I even explained to you why "claims" cannot change definitions of terms and you keep talking about claims. I cannot help you further. Iathien (talk) 09:48, 13 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
In that case, I'll resume adding material cited to reliable sources where appropriate as per usual. If you feel the need to further enforce your personal opinions that contradict what sources say, those'll be your options going forward. Remsense ‥ 论09:59, 13 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
FWIW, I don't understand the following claim
"The term EEZ applies to ONLY RECOGNIZED STATES BY INTERNATIONAL LAW. The EEZ is an international-law-related term by itself. As such, illegal, not recognized states cannot have an EEZ BY DEFINITION. It's that simple."
Recognition is obviously not a binary, recognized vs unrecognized, and if it were the case that "not recognized states cannot have an EEZ BY DEFINITION" Taiwan would not have an EEZ. But they do, a contested EEZ obviously. There are many contested EEZs around the world. Sean.hoyland (talk) 12:21, 13 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
level-3 vital article is rated B-class on Wikipedia's content assessment scale.
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