Talk:Maske: Thaery

Plot summary

A summary should cover the essential points of the plot, not simply rehash the whole story. Also, policy dictates that summaries use dispassionate, encyclopedic language and not be too "exciting." Resist your inner fanboy! Just Another Cringy Username (talk) 04:13, 23 August 2023 (UTC)

Context means a lot. You left out so much that a reader can barely tell it's science fiction! It's only noted in one place halfway through. That's just plain silly. Where in my synopsis is the "exciting" part? Clarityfiend (talk) 10:28, 23 August 2023 (UTC)

Most of the time, science fiction requires context because the author has invented an alien environment. I shudder to think what you would do to something like The Gods Themselves. Clarityfiend (talk) 10:39, 23 August 2023 (UTC)

Looking over your version again, you can't even tell it's not set on Earth. I can just envision your take on 2001: A Space Odyssey: Five-man ship's crew goes on long voyage. Equipment malfunction results in the deaths of all but one. The sole survivor undergoes a transformative experience. Just as context-free and just as uninformative. Clarityfiend (talk) 11:16, 23 August 2023 (UTC)

"On the planet of..." There, now we know it's not on Earth. The first paragraph of your summary is irrelevant backstory and has no bearing on the plot whatsoever.

The exciting part comes from the general breathless tone. I can tell just by reading it that it was written by a fan of the book.

By your standards, yes, I probably would shred the F out of that Asimov book because summaries are by their very nature incomplete and should not recreate the emotional experience of reading the story. It doesn't matter who the author is or how much you love the book; it still has to satisfy WP:PLOT and WP:PLOTSUMNOT, and the latter is where so many summaries on here fail.

At any rate, we have now had our three reverts and I'm taking this to DRN before we get into a full-out edit war. Just Another Cringy Username (talk) 21:14, 23 August 2023 (UTC)

The backstory, among other things, explains why off-world travel is prohibited. Also, Asimov book? Wrong on both counts. Clarityfiend (talk) 12:19, 29 August 2023 (UTC)

RFC on Plot Summary

The following discussion is an archived record of a request for comment. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion. A summary of the conclusions reached follows.

Rough consensus for B. In this discussion neither side had the advantage in terms of a policy-basis for their position, and so to determine consensus we look for the opinion of the broader community. BilledMammal (talk) 02:53, 22 October 2023 (UTC) This discussion had minimal participation, but the sole uninvolved editor who did participate found that B was the better blurb, thus giving us a rough consensus for that option.

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Which of the following plot summaries should be used in the article? Robert McClenon (talk) 23:54, 5 September 2023 (UTC)

Answer A or B in the Survey, with a brief statement. Do not reply to the posts of other editors in the Survey. Back-and-forth discussion should be in the Discussion section; that's what it's for.

• A.

A religious group seized part of the isolated planet Maske from earlier colonists and named it Thaery. One dissident faction was driven off and became the Waels of Wellas. Another was exiled and became the Glints. The Glints became notorious bandits, but were eventually subjugated. However, they are still looked down upon as coarse and belligerent. Some Glints became "Sea Nationals", claimed sovereignty over the ocean. To maintain their religious purity, travel to other worlds was banned.

Jubal Droad, a young Glint man, goes on Yallow, a rite of passage into adulthood, traditionally spent wandering and doing public works. He spends several weeks repairing a trail. One day, a man leading a group of soldiers ignores Jubal's urgent warning not to use the unfinished trail. He and his men cause it to collapse and seriously injure Jubal.

When he recovers, his uncle Vaidro gives him a letter of introduction to Nai the Hever, one of the most powerful men of Thaery. He arrives in the city of Wysrod and encounters Nai's elegant adult daughter Mieltrude and her beautiful friend Sune Mircea. He accompanies them to the examination of Ramus Ymph for the high office of Servant. Jubal recognizes his nemesis. He informs Nai the Hever, the senior Servant, of his investigation of Ramus's activities: he secretly and illegally went off-world. This results in Ramus being rejected.

Nai the Hever offers Jubal a seemingly lowly position as Sanitary Inspector in unit D3. Jubal reluctantly accepts and learns that D3 is actually the intelligence service. He is now a secret agent in training. Nai the Hever is D3's head, and Vaidro had been a valued agent.

Ramus has Mieltrude, his fiancée, sign a warrant to subject Jubal to physical punishment. Jubal escapes with the assistance of Shrack, a Sea National ship captain, and procures a warrant against Mieltrude. Nai the Hever persuades him to not serve it.

Jubal's first assignment is to discover what Ramus is plotting. He follows Ramus to the tourist world Eiselbar and learns that he is trying to raise money to purchase a space yacht.

Back on Maske, Cadmus off-Droad, Jubal's illegitimate brother, murders Trewe, head of the clan, asserting that he had been robbed of his rightful place. The clan gathers and brings Cadmus down after fierce fighting. However, Cadmus's masked chief accomplice escapes; Jubal is certain that it is Ramus. Without proof, however, Nai the Hever refuses to antagonize the powerful Ymph clan. In fact, Jubal has become an embarrassment to him.

Ramus sails across the ocean to meet with the Waels, a peculiar people living in a barren land who have developed a deep spiritual connection with trees. Jubal takes Mieltrude into custody and sets off in pursuit. During the voyage, their mutual disdain begins to weaken. Mieltrude informs Jubal that her engagement to Ramus was a subterfuge to aid her father's investigation of Ramus. Ramus's mistress, Sune, had forged Mieltrude's signature to the warrant.

Jubal finds Ramus negotiating with the Waels for the use of part of their land for much-needed food and other resources. Jubal, disguised as a Wael, gets him to admit that he plans to construct tourist resorts on the land. (Ramus tried to lease Droad land for the same purpose.) The Waels reject his proposal. They do something to Ramus which leaves him mute and subdued, and insist that Shrack and Jubal take him away. During the return voyage, Ramus sprouts bark and leaves. When they reach Wysrod, Ramus runs off the ship, plants his feet in the soil, raises his arms, and essentially transforms into a tree.

• B.

Jubal Droad goes on "Yallow," a rite of passage into adulthood, traditionally spent doing public works. As part of his Yallow, Droad spends several weeks repairing a trail. One day, the arrogant noble Rampus Ymph ignores Jubal's warning to not use the still unfinished trail, causing it to collapse and seriously injure Droad.

When Jubal recovers, he arrives in the city of Wysrod for the examination of Ramus Ymph for the high office of Servant. Jubal recognizes his nemesis. He informs Nai the Hever, the senior Servant, of Ramus's illegal activities. This results in Ramus being rejected.

Nai the Hever offers Jubal a seemingly lowly position as Sanitary Inspector in unit D3. Jubal reluctantly accepts and learns that D3 is actually the intelligence service. He is now a secret agent in training. Jubal's first assignment is to discover what Ramus is plotting. He follows Ramus to the tourist world Eiselbar and learns that he is trying to raise money to purchase a space yacht.

Back on Maske, Cadmus off-Droad, Jubal's illegitimate brother, murders Trewe, head of the clan, asserting that he had been robbed of his rightful place. The clan gathers and brings Cadmus down. However, Cadmus's masked chief accomplice escapes and Jubal is certain that it is Ramus.

Ramus sails across the ocean to meet with the Waels, a people known for their spiritual connection to trees. Jubal takes Ramus' fiance, Mieltrude, into custody and sets off in pursuit. During the voyage, Mieltrude informs Jubal that her engagement to Ramus was a subterfuge to aid her father's investigation of Ramus.

Jubal finds Ramus negotiating with the Waels for the use of part of their land for much-needed food and other resources. Jubal, disguised as a Wael, gets him to admit that he plans to construct tourist resorts on the land. The Waels reject his proposal. They insist that Shrack and Jubal take him away. When they reach Wysrod, Ramus transforms into a tree.

Survey

Option B seemed a little cleaner and more to-the-point. Thanks for the WP:PLOTSUMNOT above. I found that helpful in making my decision. Penguino35 (talk) 20:12, 12 September 2023 (UTC)

Discussion

Stop reverting to your version on the basis of minimal participation.

You have undermined your own position two ways. First, you admitted that your level of minimal detail would not be tolerated on more high-profile articles. Why should standards change for lesser known works? Second, your judgment on writing is questionable. You have described my version as fanboyishly "breathless". I have written at least 400-500 first synopses of films and novels, some of them very high-profile (e.g. Lawrence of Arabia, Animal House). Not once has anybody else seconded your opinion. Clarityfiend (talk) 00:11, 10 October 2023 (UTC)

Nor yours. Just Another Cringy Username (talk) 03:45, 10 October 2023 (UTC)

So status quo, and I was here first. P.S. This is an example of fanboy writing: "The intrepid Jubal ingeniously foils the villain's nefarious plot, with great panache." Purple prose and a personal opinion. There is none of that in my synopsis. Joe "Just the facts, ma'am" Friday would not find anything objectionable. Clarityfiend (talk) 07:57, 11 October 2023 (UTC)

I have trimmed the synopsis a bit. It now stands at 532 words, a reasonable length for such things. Clarityfiend (talk) 00:17, 10 October 2023 (UTC)

@Clarityfiend and Just Another Cringy Username: Do either of you want to !vote on this proposal, before I close it? BilledMammal (talk) 02:56, 14 October 2023 (UTC)

I would !vote for my summary, Option B. I agree w/ the voting editor that it is much more concise and uncluttered. I would remind the closer that WP:PLOTSUMNOT is just as important as WP:PLOT. Just Another Cringy Username (talk) 03:26, 14 October 2023 (UTC)

Obviously I lvote for my version. JACU's take is so lacking in context, you can't even tell where it's taking place. Maske is mentioned once, without explaining what or where it is, and Thaery not at all. JACU also doesn't explain why Jubal takes Mieltrude into custody (the reader can only assume it's because she's Ramus's fiance [sic]), who her father is, or that the Waels are responsible for Ramus's transformation into a tree. It's also wrong to say that Jubal goes to Wysrod for Ramus's examination, seeing as he doesn't know his enemy's name or that there is an examination yet. As for JACU's repeated, baseless accusation that I have written in "breathless" fanboy fashion, they cannot provide a single example of that. In fact, JACU is the one guilty of WP:POV wording, calling Ramus "arrogant".

Film synopses are roughly comparable, and WP:FILMPLOT recommends between 400 and 700 words. Mine (the current one, not the slightly longer version on this talk page) is about in the middle of that range at 532, while JACU's is below that at 324. Asimov's The Caves of Steel comes in at 593 words, and that's without counting the Setup section, which provides much-needed background. His Foundation is really bloated, at 2562 words. Clarke's Childhood's End clocks in at 1159. Heinlein's Starship Troopers rates 694 words, again not counting a Setting section of 457 words. Stranger in a Strange Land has 905.

Moral of this (stats) story: Science fiction novels by their very nature usually require extensive background information because they're set in unfamiliar surroundings. I provide the minimum required context without excessive detail, and my synopsis is significantly shorter than those of many other science-fiction novels (and not all that much longer than JACU's). So why is JACU picking on this particular one when there are egregiously long, more high-profile ones? Clarityfiend (talk) 05:17, 14 October 2023 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.