Talk:Mary Beale

additional material added by Kkoluch1 Suggestion

Kkoluch1, I see from your contribution list that you are either a new editor, or have created a new editor to work on Mary Beal. Excellent well done, the article does need some work on it, but you cannot add a sentence like Mary Beale was most likely taught how to paint when she was living in [[London]] by [[Robert Walker (painter)|Robert Walker]] as this is an opinion not a referenced fact. You will also notice a few {citation needed} added, because the fact / statement will need a reference, this is, after all, an encyclopedia. When I can return I will assist in adding this new information where referenced and not a thought or opinion. Thanks Edmund Patrick – confer 06:25, 16 May 2016 (UTC)

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Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment

This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 22 January 2020 and 11 May 2020. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): Billyboffman.

Above undated message substituted from Template:Dashboard.wikiedu.org assignment by PrimeBOT (talk) 09:49, 18 January 2022 (UTC)

Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment

This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 23 August 2021 and 15 December 2021. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): Moldgirl.

Above undated message substituted from Template:Dashboard.wikiedu.org assignment by PrimeBOT (talk) 09:49, 18 January 2022 (UTC)

Illegible image deleted

• 
  Image as removed
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  Retouched version
• 
  alternative image

I am removing this image because it is illegible due to the contrast issue. I have asked at Commons if it is correctable and if so, I will restore it. 𝕁𝕄𝔽 (talk) 21:11, 28 March 2024 (UTC)

See Wikipedia:Graphics Lab/Photography workshop#Memorial to Mary Beale. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 16:39, 29 March 2024 (UTC)

Thank you for that intervention. Now we have the question: which text does the image illustrate? We already have a memorial picture (rather better than this one, IMO). Do we really need another? 𝕁𝕄𝔽 (talk) 18:41, 29 March 2024 (UTC)

If there is no text noting the existence of the memorial, then some should be added. The alternative image is too cluttered. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 18:53, 29 March 2024 (UTC)

Yes, I have to admit that the retouched version is considerably clearer so I have to agree with Andy's swap, even though I like the candlelit more. "To illustrate, not to decorate" applies. Yes, the article does mention it: Her tomb was destroyed by enemy bombs during the Second World War. A memorial to her lies within the church. (How did the article ever end up with two images of the same memorial, even if one was so illegible as not to be obviously the same scene?) --𝕁𝕄𝔽 (talk) 20:33, 29 March 2024 (UTC)

Hunting?

Has anyone got

• Hunting, Penelope (2019). My dearest heart : the artist Mary Beale (1633-1699). Bendor Grosvenor. London: Unicorn. ISBN 978-1-912690-08-4. OCLC 1057291032.

It is cited about five times but without page numbers. 𝕁𝕄𝔽 (talk) 09:08, 29 March 2024 (UTC)

"The Excellent Mrs Mary Beale"?

At present, the article says

On 18 October 1654 Charles and Mary's first son, Bartholomew, was buried. Little else is known about their first son. Their second son was baptised on 14 February 1655/6 and also named Bartholomew.

The first two sentences are uncited but it seems incredible that an editor would invent it. Nevertheless, the ODNB article says she had just two children. The last sentence is supported by Walshe & Jefree's ""The Excellent Mrs Mary Beale" exhibition catalogue. Does anyone have a copy or access to one? Does it support the mysterious first child? 𝕁𝕄𝔽 (talk) 00:15, 30 March 2024 (UTC)

Premature listing of upcoming book and promotion of selling exhibition

A wp:IP editor added this book to the "further reading" list

• Hendra, Lawrence; Smith, Ellie, eds. (2024). Fruit of Friendship: Portraits by Mary Beale (Philip Mould & Company). London: Paul Holberton Publishing. (Exhibition catalogue)

As the [redacted] url makes clear, it has not yet been published. It is also the catalogue for a selling exhibition, so its value as a scholarly work remains to be seen (though, as the gallery is reputable, it is most probably valid) – a book review would help. When the book is actually published (and has an ISBN), the tags that hide it can be removed.

I have also deleted editor's contribution of a link to the exhibition web page, per policy WP:External links#Links normally to be avoided. A convincing case needs to be made if this is to be reinstated. --𝕁𝕄𝔽 (talk) 15:21, 13 May 2024 (UTC)

The Hendra & Smith (2024) book now has an isbn, so I have unhidden it from the "further reading" list. Also, as the exhibition at Mould & Co is not obviously a selling exhibition and is open to the public, it is legitimate to mention it too. --𝕁𝕄𝔽 (talk) 15:26, 1 July 2024 (UTC)

Page numbers needed from Hunting (2019)

Does anyone have a copy of Hunting, Penelope (2019). My dearest heart : the artist Mary Beale (1633-1699). Bendor Grosvenor. London: Unicorn. ISBN 978-1-912690-08-4. OCLC 1057291032.? It is heavily cited but without any page numbers. Can anyone rectify? 𝕁𝕄𝔽 (talk) 18:22, 7 June 2024 (UTC)

Death Date

@JMF @Bagumba Since I have retired I have no access to the services that have a copy of the Clayton 1876 publication.The date maybe incorrect but in fact it was referenced (agreed without a page number and incomplete ref mark up - but referenced). Edmund Patrick – confer 11:54, 2 December 2024 (UTC)

Presumably you have already tried Archive.org?

It is not a serious deficiency now but it would be a prerequisite to achieving WP:Good article if anyone had the inclination to get it there. 𝕁𝕄𝔽 (talk) 16:40, 2 December 2024 (UTC) Struck out because it was never a problem, as is explained in the article and below. --𝕁𝕄𝔽 (talk) 00:55, 3 December 2024 (UTC)

I had only taggged it, as it wasn't at the page cited by the adjacent footnote. I have no particular knowledge on Beale otherwise, so anyone can feel free to cite it with a different page or source. Regards.—Bagumba (talk) 16:52, 2 December 2024 (UTC)

We have a problem that sources disagree.

• Clayton (1876) says at page 52 "The chime of the Christmas bells was in the air as Mary Beale died— December 28th, 1697, at Pall Mall."
• Ziegler (2021) is reported as saying "October 1699" and denouncing the 1697 date as an error made by Walpole as a misreading of "Mary Beadle".

So the book we really need is Ziegler's, to see her sources. But IMO we should accept the later source as more likely to be correct since it explicitly challenges the earlier sources. --𝕁𝕄𝔽 (talk) 18:36, 2 December 2024 (UTC)

I think we may assume that Ziegler's source is Walshe (1948), who examined the church registers and (a) found that the 1697 date is for one Mary Beadle and (b) that Beale's correct date of death was 1699.. This is footnote (a) in the article.--𝕁𝕄𝔽 (talk) 00:55, 3 December 2024 (UTC)

To be clear, I was only challenging the previous text about her burial date. I had run across it on "On this day", but it wasn't supported on the page.[1] I also wasn't sure why OTD was highlighting her burial date instead of her death date.—Bagumba (talk) 01:49, 3 December 2024 (UTC)

Thank you both, Wiki at its best. As an aside it is amazing to watch the appriciation of the artist and her life gain over the last couple of decades. Edmund Patrick – confer 07:42, 3 December 2024 (UTC)

@Bagumba: It is a good question and I think you are correct. Walshe's source is the parish register, which of course can only give her burial date:

Mary Beale
SIR, It may interest readers of THE BURLINGTON MAGAZINE to learn the exact date of the burial of Mary Beale, the seventeenth- century woman artist.
Up till now, I understand, the accepted date of her death has been that of December 28, 1697, as given in Walpole's Anecdotes, but a careful search of the Registers of St James's Church, Piccadilly, shows us that he confused the artist with one 'Mary Beadle', whose funeral was on that date, and that the entry of Mary Beale's burial occurs two years later, on October 8, 1699.
ELIZABETH WALSH

So we don't know precisely when she died, except that it would not have been more than a few days beforehand. 𝕁𝕄𝔽 (talk) 11:37, 3 December 2024 (UTC)

... and I have revised the article accordingly. 𝕁𝕄𝔽 (talk) 11:56, 3 December 2024 (UTC)

References