Talk:Martakert (disambiguation)

Untitled

Removed POV project tag [1]. Atabek (talk) 07:58, 10 April 2008 (UTC)

Added more neutral clarifications on this region. Atabek (talk) 01:06, 16 April 2008 (UTC)

"Ağdərə"

I am finding enough evidence that demonstrates that "Ağdərə" is the Azeri word for "Mardakert", e.g. [2]. John Vandenberg ^(chat) 22:47, 19 April 2008 (UTC)

Are you sure? According to Azerbaijan Nagorno Karabakh Republic and its rayon's don't exist. Here are the Azeri rayon's http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template:Administrative_divisions_of_Azerbaijan VartanM (talk) 00:11, 21 April 2008 (UTC)

That doesn't mean that there can't be a name in the Azeri language used to define it. --Golbez (talk) 00:43, 21 April 2008 (UTC)

Is there any evidence that the name wasn't just created and the region briefly renamed after Azerbaijan briefly captured Mardakert in 1992? Pocopocopocopoco (talk) 00:58, 21 April 2008 (UTC)

I would still say that qualifies as the Azeri name for the region, however brief, and deserves mention since it can be evidenced. My question is, what is this name translated into English? Aghdara? --Golbez (talk) 15:49, 21 April 2008 (UTC)

Then by that same token Kelbajar, Zangelan, Fizuli, Lachin (rayon), Qubadli and Jabrayil should also have the Armenian names with Armenian script there at the top of the article as well. Pocopocopocopoco (talk) 12:58, 22 April 2008 (UTC)

I think there is room for the Armenian names on those articles, if an editor wanted to add it. It would cause me a little concern if a disruptive user was doing it, and I wouldnt be surprised if the addition was seen as undesirable by some, but in principle your suggestion makes sense. More information is a good thing, unless it is undeniably being used to stir up trouble. It is especially useful to have these relevant names in other languages when there is no article in said language of Wikipedia. I am surprised that Zangelan does not have an article on hy:. --John Vandenberg ^(chat) 13:21, 22 April 2008 (UTC)

I am not sure why Azeri cities should have Armenian names attached to them, but possible compromise could be adding historical Azeri names to several Armenian cities like Ijevan, Zod, etc. which were subjected to renaming during Soviet period. Atabek (talk) 18:24, 22 April 2008 (UTC)

In this case, because they are contested and the local population, regardless of how Baku feels about it, has different names, they should both be presented. In contested areas, or areas where the local name (regardless of if the NKR is real, the Armenians who live in the region are real) differs from the official name or the widely-known English name, I think we should always present both names. Examples: Nicosia, Kyrenia, Nanjing, Grozny, Aksai Chin, and Kiev, among many others. It's just that the differences in Armenian and Azeri are so stark, with few comparisons worldwide (Cyprus mainly is the only other one) --Golbez (talk) 19:56, 22 April 2008 (UTC)

Well, they should also be presented in Armenian case, like for example Zod was spelled as Azeri "Basarkechar" in atlases of early Soviet period, Dilijan was Karavansaray, etc.. On entire territory of modern Armenia there were many valid Turkic names at various instances in history, and up to very recent times prior to Azeri exodus. So if we are to reflect Armenian names in some Azerbaijani cities, then perhaps, reciprocal approach would fit neutrality and fairness principles. Right? Atabek (talk) 21:36, 22 April 2008 (UTC)

I'm not going to say "no" outright, but the two situations are not entirely similar. In one case, we have a legitimately and presently disputed territory; in the other, as you yourself said, they were in the "early Soviet period". I'm all for including past names, but with time comes moving them from the first sentence to a history section, except in major and lasting disputes (Gdanzig). --Golbez (talk) 21:45, 22 April 2008 (UTC)

Sorry, but what do you mean by "legitimately disputed territory"? Sounds like non-neutral WP:OR to me. And quite frankly, it's irrelevant in this context, as territory of Armenia can be claimed by Azerbaijan as much as Armenia attempts to claim parts of Azerbaijan. Not only in early Soviet period, but prior to that, for example, Dilijan was Karavansaray, and actually Stepanakert was known as small village of Khankendi, before it was renamed after Bolshevik Stepan Shaumyan. Same goes with other Turkic names like Lake Goycha for Sevan, Daralagoz, and other Turkic or Persian names in Armenia. So the approach shall be reciprocal. Atabek (talk) 22:52, 22 April 2008 (UTC)

By 'legitimately disputed' I meant actually disputed, not some minor dispute or one that appears only on paper. I was comparing against, for example, someone in his apartment suddenly claiming to be the rightful leader of (picking a random country) Sweden, and renaming it Jehosephat. We would not include that, because it is not a legitimate dispute; obviously, the NK dispute is legitimate, legitimate enough to have a shooting war over. Maybe if people weren't so fast to see bias around every corner, we could someday make good articles on these subjects. --Golbez (talk) 23:36, 22 April 2008 (UTC)

A better example: If the Republic of Lakotah decides to rename South Dakota to something else, we aren't going to mention that, whatsoever, in the article on South Dakota. If they did somehow happen to capture it and rename it, though, that would warrant mention. That's all I meant by a 'legitimately disputed region'. The Lakotah claims would hold no legitimacy; as much as either side would wish it otherwise, both Armenian and Azeri claims hold legitimacy in the question of Nagorno-Karabakh. --Golbez (talk) 23:40, 22 April 2008 (UTC)

I think these titles have to do with historical realities rather than claims of "legitimacy" or vice versa, which are subject to various interpretations/biases on each side. It's pretty straightforward, if the city is in Azerbaijan, and we want Armenian spelling to be shown, then the same should apply to Azeri titles in Armenia. Wikipedia is not a political medium, to legitimize the consequence of war, that's a task for politicians, armies and diplomats. Atabek (talk) 00:58, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

Except Mardakert is in Azerbaijan and controlled by Armenians. Which cities in Armenia that you want Azeri names for that are controlled by Azeris? --Golbez (talk) 00:59, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

Check Istanbul - Byzantium no longer exists to control the city and call it Constantinople. How about Antalya? Per your logic we should have also removed the Armenian spelling and in fact rename Artsvashen, because it's not controlled by Armenians. As I said, irredentist interpretations will only introduce unnecessary dimension for new and useless edit conflicts over minor issues. The choice is very straight forward, either we use all historical titles for a given city/town, or we use just the spelling where it's legally located. Atabek (talk) 01:27, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

Asymmetrical naming between differenct languages

One other problem between the naming of these regions across languages is that Mardakert is the official name for the NKR and Armenia and has good international coverage. It is the name of an official political boundary (the province). According to Azerbaijan, Mardakert is officially divided between the Terter region and the Kalbajar region. So Ağdərə is strictly a temporary name. So the beginning of the article is misleading as it gives Ağdərə the impression of official status. It would be equally misleading if we put Terter and/or Kalbajar as this would be comparing apples to oranges as they are completely different geographically. The point is that this article doubles as a geographic and a political area so Ağdərə would be out of place at the beginning. My suggestion is leave it out of the beginning of the article but put it in the body of the article and explain the background behind the name. Pocopocopocopoco (talk) 03:47, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

Ağdərə is a region of Azerbaijan. Looks like the rayon was renamed to its historical regional name Agdere at the start of the conflict, and then the rayon was split between Terter, Kelbajar and Agdam rayons after the status of NKAO was abolished. However, the name of the town Agdere remains as Ağdərə in Azerbaijani sources and is located in Terter rayon. Ehud (talk) 04:31, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

I would be interested in reading any sources you can provide about the history of the regions name. Pocopocopocopoco (talk) 02:00, 24 April 2008 (UTC)

Pocopocopocopoco, we cannot predict the future, and the situation may get drastically different in any of the directions. So we have to go with present status quo. Since you refer to international coverage, from international point of view, NK is integral part of Azerbaijan and hence any administrative division of Azerbaijan thereof legally applies, and so does name Agdere. Atabek (talk) 14:36, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

Except Agdere is not an administrative division of Azerbaijan; if it was, they rendered it obsolete when they split it into Tartar and Kalbajar. --Golbez (talk) 16:15, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

What does Ehud mean by "Ağdərə is a region of Azerbaijan". Is it a geographical region? Is it an historical name? What evidence is there of that? Is it just an invented name from the 1990s or later? It is certainly not an administrative region, even a symbolic de-jure one, so it shouldn't really be placed beside the explanation that Mardakert is an administrative province. The rayon/administrative region of Mardakert wasn't renamed Ağdərə by Azerbaijan, Mardakert was abolished and its territory symbolically divided between neighbouring regions outside of Nagorno Karabakh and which at the time Azerbaijan still fully controlled (though it later lost control of Kelbajar). I agree with Pocopocopocopoco - there is a lack of clarity at the start of the article. Meowy 16:29, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

Meowy, are you disputing Azerbaijani version of Mardakert or whether it's a region or not? According to Azerbaijani version, the town formerly known as Mardakert is now known as Agdere since 4th of July, 1992, when Azeri forces captured it. It was retaken almost a year later by Armenian troops.

The same that you said about Mardakert vs. Agdere, can be applied to "Karvajar", "Berdzor", and other invented Armenian names for occupied Azerbaijani towns of Kalbajar and Lachin. Since Agdere is still a legitimately recognized part of Azerbaijan, while Kelbajar and Lachin are not parts of Armenia, I think name Agdere is more than appropriate to be cited in this case vs. Karvajar and Berdzor already cited on relevant pages. Atabek (talk) 00:18, 24 April 2008 (UTC)

But we are talking about the province not the town. Pocopocopocopoco (talk) 02:00, 24 April 2008 (UTC)

Yes, Agdere is a geographical region, not an administrative division, at least now. Unfortunately, there are no sources in English on renaming of Agdere to Mardakert in 1920's. If I am not mistaken, "Ağdərə" means "Bright valley" or "Bright gorge" in Azerbaijani language, in reference to its relief. Meowy, on some of Azerbaijani maps of 1991/1992 the name Agdere can been seen as the name of the rayon. Perhaps, it was renamed back to Agdere very briefly but then divided between 3 other rayons. Some traces of Azerbaijani presence and proofs of Armenian migration are being wiped off Azerbaijani website IRS Nevertheless, the name of a town Agdere is always there even though it's under Armenian control [3]. Ehud (talk) 03:32, 24 April 2008 (UTC)

There are a lot of "perhapses" in the above. Is the town of Mardakert called Mardakert on proper Soviet-period maps written in Cyrillic? And is the rayon also called Mardaket on those maps? It will probably be on map sheet K-38-143 (or K-38-142) on the 1:100,000 Soviet maps from the 1970s/80s. These maps were available online in the late 90s but I don't know of a website that now has them. (And since I have lost most of my downloaded copies if anyone can find a current site I will be verrrrry happy!) However, it would appear to me that the proper place to mention Agdere should be alongside an explanation that Martakert is the name of a town as well as the whole province. Meowy 21:14, 24 April 2008 (UTC)

I think the bottom line is that Ağdərə never represented any sort of administrative division so it shouldn't be alongside Mardakert at the top of the article. It should however be mentioned in the body of the article that Mardakert was briefly renamed to Ağdərə. I've only seen sources describe this happened briefly in the early 1990's however if anyone has any sources that describe an earlier renaming please post them and we can add it to the article. Pocopocopocopoco (talk) 01:14, 25 April 2008 (UTC)

Am I right in assuming that before its current status, the territory of Mardakert was an administrative district (or rayon) of the Nagorno-Karabakh Autonomous Oblast, and that that rayon was also called Mardakert? If so, then that too should be mentioned. Meowy 20:09, 25 April 2008 (UTC)