Talk:Mark Robinson (American politician)/Archive 2

Archive 1

Archive 2

"Big Story" to come from CNN

Multiple outlets are reporting about an impending CNN story that is said to be disastrous for his campaign. The Carolina Journal, which is heavily biased towards the NC GOP, is reporting that he is under pressure from his own staff and the Trump campaign to drop out. National Review is reporting this too, specifically that the story will be about "comments Robinson made in several online chatrooms".

Considering Robinson has been trailing in polls, and the fact that North Carolina seems to be a swing state for the race for President, it might be prudent to keep y'all's eye on this page.

One has to wonder how bad a story must be to get the NC GOP to advocate for a anti-LGBT, racist, anti-atheist, Islamophobic, antisemitic Holocaust denier to drop out. Northern-Virginia-Photographer (talk) 17:29, 19 September 2024 (UTC)

Remember WP:FORUM, but definitely worth keeping tabs on. Dingers5Days (talk) 17:53, 19 September 2024 (UTC)

Welp. It's here. Northern-Virginia-Photographer (talk) 20:09, 19 September 2024 (UTC)

Holy fuck. Di (they-them) (talk) 20:31, 19 September 2024 (UTC)

If anyone else wants to look over what's been added so far, I'd appreciate it, as I'm still relatively new to Wikipedia, and I'm not super familiar with WP:BLP policy yet. Northern-Virginia-Photographer (talk) 20:33, 19 September 2024 (UTC)

Wowzers! You've done a very good job summarizing this astonishing material, Northern-Virginia-Photographer. Cullen328 (talk) 20:56, 19 September 2024 (UTC)

Thank you! I was glad I could get it done before the extended-protected status was applied. Absolutely crazy story. Northern-Virginia-Photographer (talk) 21:37, 19 September 2024 (UTC)

Indeed, good job. Di (they-them) (talk) 22:12, 19 September 2024 (UTC)

Sorry to interrupt the article building, but I don't think it takes a rocket scientist to realize that this article is going to become a magnet for all kinds of disruptive editing. -Ad Orientem (talk) 22:19, 19 September 2024 (UTC)

Absolutely no worry - I think you applied protection to the page at exactly the right time. The crux of the CNN article (and the politico one, which I'm just now reading myself) is on the page; I don't think there will be more details to add regarding this until the dust settles. Northern-Virginia-Photographer (talk) 22:23, 19 September 2024 (UTC)

Yeah, I think the protection was timed well. Di (they-them) (talk) 22:27, 19 September 2024 (UTC)

I was just looking at The Onion for the the first time in quite awhile, saw this [1] and came to this article to see if it knew what that was about. It did. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 06:27, 21 September 2024 (UTC)

RfC: Should Robinson be described as a far-right politician?

Robinson's scandals are analogous to Doug Mastriano's scandals in 2022. Robinson can be labelled far-right for his espousal of Holocaust denial and Nazism (i.e. describing himself as a "Black Nazi"), not merely his right-wing policy views, as well as other other controversial statements that have been described as far-right. JohnAdams1800 (talk) 22:50, 19 September 2024 (UTC)

I would say yes. A reliable source (CNN) said that he self-described himself as a Nazi, that's about as blatant as it gets. If a self-described Nazi isn't far-right, I don't know what is. Di (they-them) (talk) 23:50, 19 September 2024 (UTC)

Would feel better vis-a-vis WP:SYNTH if there was an article we could point to that describes him far-right, which I'm sure exists. Northern-Virginia-Photographer (talk) 23:59, 19 September 2024 (UTC)

Per WP:REDFLAG and BLP we would need multiple independent reliable sources using that language for us to call him that in wiki-voice. -Ad Orientem (talk) 01:14, 20 September 2024 (UTC)

Support finding multiple RS, which shouldn't be difficult given the lead already states he has promoted "far-right conspiracy theories." JohnAdams1800 (talk) 02:24, 20 September 2024 (UTC)

I have added the "far-right" description and included three sources that specifically describe him as such:

• United Press International (link) ([...]Robinson's frequently inflammatory public positions as a far-right conservative who is vehemently opposed gay and transgender rights.)
• The Nation (link) (North Carolina’s GOP Nominee for Governor Is a Far-Right Fanatic—and He’s Not Alone)
• The Advocate (magazine) (link) )[...]Mark Robinson, the far-right Republican and current North Carolina lieutenant governor[...])

Di (they-them) (talk) 03:59, 20 September 2024 (UTC)

@Di (they-them) UPI is a solid source. I have doubts about the Nation and the Advocate, neither of which are neutral and both have a reputation for being well to the left politically. The Nation in particular has been described in some more conservative sources as being far left. -Ad Orientem (talk) 04:21, 20 September 2024 (UTC)

I have tagged the claim for needing better sources. If someone wants to remove the claim for now, I have no objections. We need multiple high quality non-biased sources for this to fly. -Ad Orientem (talk) 04:28, 20 September 2024 (UTC)

@Ad Orientem: The Nation is listed on WP:RSP as a reliable source. Di (they-them) (talk) 04:28, 20 September 2024 (UTC)

@Di (they-them) The quote from The Nation is from an op-ed piece. We don't typically accept those for making highly negative statements about someone in wiki-voice. I am not all sure about the Advocate. -Ad Orientem (talk) 04:41, 20 September 2024 (UTC)

I have found another source:

• Huffpost (link) (The far-right conservative, who already has a long history of demeaning women and girls, allegedly described secretly “peeping” on women in public gym showers through vents.)

Di (they-them) (talk) 04:48, 20 September 2024 (UTC)

That's probably a better source. But I'm still uncomfortable using these kinds of terms in wiki-voice. Back when Fidel Castro died we had a huge debate over whether or not he could be called a "dictator" in wiki voice. There were scores of reliable sources so labeling him. But the community said we could not do so because the term was not being used unanimously. -Ad Orientem (talk) 04:58, 20 September 2024 (UTC)

The Advocate should not be used to source any claim likely to be as contentious as this. It is a very political source. Huffpost I'd also be somewhat wary of. UPI I put more stock in. That said, I think we should avoid having the framework of "X person is an [insert ideological stance][ref][ref][ref] politician" in the very first sentence. It looks stupid, and we don't do that for many politicians, even controversial ones. Donald Trump and Kamala Harris are just "American politician"s in the first sentences of their articles. -Indy beetle (talk) 05:17, 20 September 2024 (UTC)

To be fair, we do label some politicians as "far-right" when they have such a history as this. Marjorie Taylor Greene and Steve King are both described as such in their article's first sentences. I'll agree that we need a few better WP:RS to call Robinson far right (and also to avoid any WP:SYNTH issues), but I don't think it should be out of the question for him anymore. Northern-Virginia-Photographer (talk) 12:21, 20 September 2024 (UTC)

I think "neo-Nazi" in the first sentence will be warranted eventually. He's not described by any RS as one but considering how he self-identified as a Black Nazi, I wouldn't be surprised if news organizations start identifying him as such- though of course we should wait until it happens. HadesTTW (he/him • talk) 06:23, 20 September 2024 (UTC)

Do I think he meets this category? Probably, yeah. Do I think enough sources call him this at the moment to define him as it? Not really. The likes of MTG/Steve King/Doug Mastriano are openly called far right politicians by the majority of news outlets, while they usually don't use this descriptor for Mark Robinson. ser! ^{(chat to me - see my edits)} 12:25, 20 September 2024 (UTC)

I don't have an issue at all with describing Robinson's political stances as far-right, because they clearly are, as described by reliable sources. However, I'm somewhat concerned by it being the first identifying factor in the lead. This is a trend I've noticed with American politics BLPs lately - identifying someone first and foremost as a "far-right politician". This isn't something we really do on most pages - Adolf Hitler's page, as an extreme (and somewhat topical) example, doesn't identify him as the "far-right dictator of Germany", nor does Stalin's define him as a "Soviet far-left politician. So to be clear - I support identifying his political positions as "far-right" (specifically in the third paragraph), and explaining in detail why this is the case but I oppose identifying him in the first sentence as a "far-right politician". The lead currently identifies him as far-right in the third paragraph, and has for some time, so this addition to the first paragraph is somewhat redundant. Toa Nidhiki05 13:35, 20 September 2024 (UTC)

Seconded. -Indy beetle (talk) 15:29, 20 September 2024 (UTC)

The difference between pages about far-right/far-left dictators is that they were heads of state and government, not just sub-national politicians or legislators. Individuals who are far more notable for being dictators and leaders of their countries aren't usually labelled ideologically. We don't label Donald Trump as far-right, despite RfC proposals that have debated doing so, because he was a former president. JohnAdams1800 (talk) 16:19, 20 September 2024 (UTC)

As far as I can tell the vast majority of sources are not describing this individual as Far Right. So again, I need to ask why is Wikipedia putting its thumb on the scale here? I have no issue with noting that some have described him as far right. But I don't think we are anywhere near the threshold where we can use that term in wiki voice. -Ad Orientem (talk) 02:56, 21 September 2024 (UTC)

Agreed. The term's fine to use for politicians who are universally described as such (e.g. MTG/Doug Mastriano/Steve King), but Robinson is described as such in a grand total of four articles that I can find. I don't think it should be in the lede, or at absolute worst should be covered as in "Media outlets have described Robinson as right-wing, conservative or far-right". ser! ^{(chat to me - see my edits)} 11:45, 21 September 2024 (UTC)

I've been considering this for a couple days now, and am satisfied that we have a serious breach of BLP and have opened a discussion at WP:BLPN. -Ad Orientem (talk) 17:21, 21 September 2024 (UTC)

I've moved it to the body in the interim, along with what various other sources have called him. It's clear from this discussion that there is not consensus to include this descriptor in the lede - though upon re-reading there seems to be a weak consensus to include the descriptor in the lede paragraph, so I've reflected this. Either way, it's usually a pretty poor idea to toss in "far-right" into the lead unless it's widely used (which the editors in this thread advocating for its inclusion have repeatedly failed to do) and is actually covered in the body. WP:LEADFOLLOWSBODY, after all. ser! ^{(chat to me - see my edits)} 18:10, 21 September 2024 (UTC)

Like I think that has been well handled. It's factual w/o editorializing in the name of the project. -Ad Orientem (talk) 18:15, 21 September 2024 (UTC)

Agreed, I think that the phrase Identified by media outlets as a right-wing or far-right politician is a good compromise. Di (they-them) (talk) 18:28, 21 September 2024 (UTC)

Like Good compromise! Northern-Virginia-Photographer (talk) 22:07, 21 September 2024 (UTC)

Wikiquote

Can somebody with the right access rights please include a link to his Wikiquote article? Joreberg (talk) 07:34, 21 September 2024 (UTC)

Like so:[2]? Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 08:41, 21 September 2024 (UTC)

Great! Tack så mycket! Joreberg (talk) 07:58, 22 September 2024 (UTC)

Church membership

The "Personal life" section does say that he identifies as an evangelical Christian. Is he a member of a church? 19:32, 24 September 2024 (UTC) Mksword (talk) 19:32, 24 September 2024 (UTC)

Clarification about his education

In bio it says he graduated with a BA in from UNC greensboro. In his early life it says he did so in 2022. But in his political career section, it says he dropped out in 2018 and he was lietenant governor by 2022. The single line sentence about him graduating in 2022 is pulled from a guardian article, but the source for the drop out portion says he dropped out 3 classes short of graduating. Did he finish college while he was lietenant governor? 2601:380:8401:6AA0:397F:6E07:1BC8:986 (talk) 20:41, 23 September 2024 (UTC)

I think the text has been altered some since it was originally devised, but yes this is basically true. He dropped out short of graduating and then finished his degree a little bit later. -Indy beetle (talk) 03:55, 25 September 2024 (UTC)

Discussion about Neo-Nazi category

I want to have a discussion to reach a consensus on whether or not to categorize this page under Category:Neo-Nazi politicians in the United States. This is a BLP, so such a contentious label should be considered seriously. I argue in support of using it. My reasoning is that he self-identified as a "Black Nazi", which was reported by CNN (a reliable source) and then widely covered by other reliable sources. He did deny that he made the comment, but he would, wouldn't he? I think that self-identification and coverage by reliable sources should be sufficient for including it. Di (they-them) (talk) 19:10, 21 September 2024 (UTC)

The problem here is that he has denied (however implausibly) making those comments. So we can't say that he self identifies as a neo-Nazi. Again, we can't rely on our interpretation of events, or what he is alleged to have said. The best we can do is to note the comments and that reliable sources have linked them to him. Anything more and we are moving into the realm of WP:OR and SYNTH. -Ad Orientem (talk) 19:38, 21 September 2024 (UTC)

Identifying as a "Black Nazi" on a porn forum almost 15 years ago is a lot different than what most of the other individuals in that category have done. You have straight up card-carrying Nazi's in that category, where Robinsons' actions amount to shitposting on some internet forums. WP:BLPCAT suggests this would be a violation. Kcmastrpc (talk) 20:03, 21 September 2024 (UTC)

Identifying as a "Black Nazi" and then publicly making far-right political statements including Holocaust denial and virulent antisemtism while in office is hardly making the case that was he was doing was shitposting on forums. Docktuh (talk) 02:09, 22 September 2024 (UTC)

Are RS forming a consensus on describing him as a "Neo-Nazi"? No. So then we should not describe him as such. -Indy beetle (talk) 03:38, 22 September 2024 (UTC)

We do not impose our interpretations of events or reported statements. We simply repeat what has been reported in reliable secondary sources with appropriate attribution. See WP:SYNTH. -Ad Orientem (talk) 05:07, 22 September 2024 (UTC)

As of now, most sources state that Robinson had called himself as a "black Nazi", using quotation marks. Once sources call him a Nazi/neo-Nazi in their own voice, we can add him to the category. Cortador (talk) 10:58, 23 September 2024 (UTC)

No, we cannot. That would be the equivalent of calling him a neo-Nazi in wiki voice. He has denied (however laughably) making those comments. So he is not self-identifying as a Nazi. We would need an avalanche of reliable sources calling him that in order to even think about using that term in wiki-voice. All we can do is note the comments that have been attributed to him with appropriate attribution and let the readers draw their own conclusions. See WP:REDFLAG and WP:SYNTH. -Ad Orientem (talk) 15:58, 23 September 2024 (UTC)

Based on the currently available sources, calling Robinson a neo-Nazi seems like a non-starter to me. Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 12:45, 23 September 2024 (UTC)

I also oppose calling Robinson a neo-Nazi, though his support for Adolf Hitler and identifying as a "Black Nazi" need to be mentioned. Robinson has made controversial statements on a host of issues besides Nazism, and has not been described as one by RS. JohnAdams1800 (talk) 00:51, 26 September 2024 (UTC)

Clarification about Boing Boing source

Hi, I just added a source from Boing Boing that alleges more posts by Robinson. WP:RSP states that Boing Boing has no consensus about its reliability, so normally I would not trust this source. That being said, the author of the article is Rob Beschizza, who is also associated with NBC, CNN, and Al Jazeera, which are reliable sources. As such, I'm making the argument that Beschizza is a reliable and trustworthy journalist in this case. Just wanted to make that clarification in case somebody asks. Di (they-them) (talk) 02:54, 21 September 2024 (UTC)

I personally oppose using its content or citing it. Its content is mainly on details about Robinson's sexual fantasies (i.e. Urolagnia), which don't have as much value as Robinson's comments on Nazism and Hitler. JohnAdams1800 (talk) 23:46, 28 September 2024 (UTC)

I don't like it simply because of the combative tone of that article, wait for more serious RS to cover that info. -Indy beetle (talk) 04:44, 29 September 2024 (UTC)