Talk:Maddie Ziegler/Archive 6

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RFC on Infoboxes (continuation from discussion above)

The following discussion is an archived record of a request for comment. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion. A summary of the conclusions reached follows.

While I have not participated in infobox discussions during my years here, I am aware of the longstanding issue that is this topic among editors. Throughout this discussion (and the ones preceding it), many links were provided to related essays, guidelines, and even ARBCOM cases. One point I will comment on, which was raised a couple of times, is that the opinion of editors who have not engaged with the article should have less weight. While the participation of users who have not contributed to the article demanding the addition/removal of the infobox was noted as a persistent issue in these kinds of discussions, no remedy or RFC appears to have passed stating how this should be dealt with, and as such it falls under the closer's discretion.

It was also pointed out that, in the infobox cases, a remedy was supported in which editors are reminded to maintain decorum and civility when engaged in discussions about infoboxes, and to avoid turning discussions about a single article's infobox into a discussion about infoboxes in general (emphasis mine). While this does not directly qualify the kind of arguments that should be ignored or given more/less weight during an RFC like this, one should take care when considering !votes that are essentially WP:WHATABOUT or WP:IDONTLIKEIT.

If we were to focus solely on the arguments that are directly related to the use of an infobox in this article, we would have one major point: the type of information provided in the infobox would lack context, due to the subject's extensive and varied career, which can be only acquired by reading the lede and possibly the remainder of the article, meaning it would be doing our readers a disservice. Some editors proposed a discussion on what should be shown on the infobox, but no counterpoint was given to justify using an infobox in this specific article.

The vast majority of the rest of the discussion focused on generic points about the usefulness (or lack thereof) of this kind of template in articles in general (ie. too easy to vandalize, too much clutter, etc.), with each user giving their own opinion on what is better. While I still took them into consideration, I gave them less weight.

Having said all that, and taking into account best practices in these types of discussions, there is no clear consensus on whether this article should have an infobox. While consensus can change, it appears we are not quite there yet. Although the article did have an infobox when it was first created, it remained without one for several years, meaning the current status quo is without an infobox.

Isabelle Belato ^🏳‍🌈 03:04, 31 December 2022 (UTC)

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A recent discussion on whether to include an infobox for Ziegler's article has stagnated without conclusion. Supporters of an infobox (myself included) reference a previous discussion in which an infobox was supported as well as accessibility/quality of life, while opposers of an infobox usually cite WP:DISINFOBOX and raise the possibility of increased vandalism. InvadingInvader (userpage, talk) 01:37, 10 December 2022 (UTC) 18:21, 4 November 2022 (UTC)

Survey

• Support including infobox, I literally don't think there's a single drawback to doing so.--Ortizesp (talk) 02:37, 5 November 2022 (UTC)
• Oppose including an infobox. While sports and politician bios can benefit from infoboxes, most articles in liberal arts fields, as here, do not. See Signpost report: "Infoboxes may be particularly unsuited to liberal arts fields when they repeat information already available in the lead section of the article, are misleading or oversimplify the topic for the reader". I disagree with including an infobox in this article because: (1) The box would emphasize unimportant factoids stripped of context and lacking nuance, in competition with the WP:LEAD section, which emphasizes and contextualizes the most important facts. (2) Since the most important points in the article are already discussed in the Lead or body of the article, the box would be redundant. (3) It would take up valuable space at the top of the article and hamper the layout and impact of the Lead. (4) Frequent errors creep into infoboxes, updates are made to articles but not reflected in the box, and IBs tend to draw vandalism, fancruft and repeated arguments among editors about what to include. (5) It would discourage readers from reading the text of the article. (6) IBs distract editors from focusing on the content of the article. Instead of improving the article, they spend time working on this repetitive feature and its coding and formatting. -- Ssilvers (talk) 02:41, 5 November 2022 (UTC)

  May, can, would. In real life, infoboxes are generally useful. Sometimes, we don't want to read a whole entire article to get a rough idea about someone, and there can be details found there that are missing from the article. On point 1, no, infobox doesn't necessarily emphasize unimportant factoids, it can be nuanced or tailored as seen fit. On point 2, no it's not redundant - it presents data in a different way or format that can be valuable to different people. On point 3, not necessarily, I find infoboxes make the page look cleaner (at least on the web). Pn point 4, frequent errors creep into all parts of articles, not just infoboxes. Regarding point 5, this is not quantifiable or proven. And on point 6, this looks like the same argument as point 5. Ortizesp (talk) 05:02, 5 November 2022 (UTC)

  I personally think that many of these issues can easily be fixed and are overplayed. For example, vandalism can be reverted...and the space in the lead that an infobox would take up isn't necessarily valuable when not used by an infobox. InvadingInvader (userpage, talk) 03:29, 8 November 2022 (UTC)

• Support including infobox. An infobox is useful for a quick overview of basic bio data easier to extract than reading the lead and article. Also age is an important fact about people that readers generally want to know for context, it is bit of a hassle to quickly calculate from birth date, and the only location it is usually mentioned and automatically updated is in the infobox. Also I expect to see inboxes in bio articles and lack of one is jarring. I agree there should be some minimum amount of info below which an infobox isn't necessary. I think that basic bio info such as birth date and age, birth location, what known for, and years active is enough data, though, for an infobox. Geraldo Perez (talk) 17:57, 5 November 2022 (UTC)

Support accidentally replied to dead thread; infoboxes are overwhelmingly common on biographies and useful to general readers. Anti-infobox users generally resort to overemphasizing minor problems covered by basic maintenance, or vague non-subjective arguments, to cover up WP:IDONTLIKEIT. Dronebogus (talk) 22:27, 3 December 2022 (UTC)

Pinging people who have commented/voted above but not yet in this RfC: Wizzito, Somambulant1, Tim riley, Jack1956 -- Ssilvers (talk) 18:14, 5 November 2022 (UTC)

• Strong Support The infobox will undoubtedly make this article easier to find information for end users. That's really the only thing that matters when discussing this topic. The data backs up this conclusion.[1] Also, I came across this topic via the Biography RfC noticeboard. This is similar to the current discussion surrounding the Talk:Laurence Olivier infobox. I can't help but notice, but it's the same handful of editors who are dedicated to fighting infobox's on every biography article. One user has even come out of retirement to comment. I'm not sure why they've chosen this hill to die on, but I have yet to read a logical argument against making articles easier to navigate with an infobox. This appears to be a WP:IDONTLIKEIT crusade they're willing to fight article by article. The only question to discuss is does the infobox help the end user. It's very difficult to logically say no, which is where discussion eventually ends. These editors need to WP:DROPTHESTICK. Nemov (talk) 18:22, 5 November 2022 (UTC)

I'll remind you that I left the notification from ArbCom about civility in IB discussions. Much of your comment is personal in tone and does not relate to whether an IB should be included on this article. Mischaracterising the intentions of others, their motives for commenting and the arguments they have employed with good reason are not civil and I suggest you should possibly strike much of the material you added in this addition to your otherwise acceptable contribution to the discussion. 2A00:23C7:2B86:9801:11F2:723B:CAC4:ABD9 (talk) 14:02, 6 November 2022 (UTC)

My comment is specific and to the point. I have yet to see a logical argument against having an infobox on this article or the other one. The closing editor should note that the same handful of editors are fighting this change. When the same vocal minority is fighting infoboxs article by article it's worth pointing out. I don't know what the motives of these editors are, but they're fighting a losing and time consuming battle. Nemov (talk) 16:01, 6 November 2022 (UTC)

• Oppose Entirely agree with the preceding editor that the only thing that matters is to make useful info available to our readers, but an i-box here wouldn't. Excellent things in the right place, but this isn't one. Tim riley talk 18:30, 5 November 2022 (UTC)
• Oppose As previously stated, I am opposed, based on reasons already made clear. Somambulant1 (talk) 19:51, 5 November 2022 (UTC)
• Oppose. What will users find in the box like the last one posted? The same name and date of birth as in the first line, an occupation that is in the same sentence and an incorrect “years active” field (unsourced and not relating to any information in the article). Yes, I can see how this vital information is easy to find (equally easy as it is in the first line, in fact). The other parts of the box shown are the place of birth (really not an important piece to focus on - ie, it fails WP:WEIGHT), the name of a relative and Ziegler’s website. So the desire for a box is for those readers who navigate their way to Wikipedia, then to this article, just to find a link to take them away from the site? Putting aside the fact that they’ll find the link on their first Google search, do we now have boxes just to help people leave this site?

As a gentle reminder to the closing admin, ArbCom decisions have stressed that arguments about IBs in general should not be taken into account (the arguments that say ‘I like/don’t like them’, ‘I can’t see why not’), nor should arguments about consistency (ie ‘other articles have them, so this should too’), and that such arguments should be based on more concrete bases about this article in particular. So say ArbCom. - 2A00:23C7:2B86:9801:5945:C359:CFC1:EECC (talk) 00:32, 6 November 2022 (UTC)

Curiously long, well written argument for a user with three edits… Dronebogus (talk) 19:27, 4 December 2022 (UTC)

I am a former editor on a dynamic IP address. Please comment on the issue, not on other editors. - 2A00:23C7:2B86:9801:7183:2FED:A175:2EA1 (talk) 19:43, 4 December 2022 (UTC)

Sorry, I’m very concerned about sock-puppeting or meat-puppeting in such a contentious topic area. Dronebogus (talk) 19:46, 4 December 2022 (UTC)

Not the case here. Please be more careful about how you phrase comments about other editors. 2A00:23C7:2B86:9801:7183:2FED:A175:2EA1 (talk) 20:04, 4 December 2022 (UTC)

• Support per the points made by others in previous discussions. wizzito | say hello! 04:30, 6 November 2022 (UTC)
• Oppose - an infobox contributes nothing that isn’t in a well-written lead section. They do not encourage readers to read on Jack1956 (talk) 09:01, 6 November 2022 (UTC)

  You’re essentially complaining that readers should be forced to read a certain way. That’s not our job. Different people use Wikipedia for different needs. Dronebogus (talk) 22:28, 3 December 2022 (UTC)

• Strong Support inclusion...I know I've already stated I support infoboxes, but I'd like to provide rationale here. Most arguments cite WP:DISINFOBOX and ArbCom-related papers, but I strongly believe that many of the arguments are simply fearmongering and outlining a worst-case scenario. The infobox will do anything but harm the article. DISINFOBOX is also a widely-rebutted Wikipedia Essay (see Disinfoboxes can be useful, Wikipedia:Disinfoboxes: a refutation, and Wikipedia:Disinfoboxes: Another rebuttal). And while I don't adhere to it personally, many arguments which demonstrate the opposition's potential violations of WP:OWN and WP:IDL generally have strong evidence.
  Additionally, while I am completely aware that Wikipedia:Wall of text is inclined to talk pages, most readers don't want to see a Wall of Text on articles either, especially in leads, as just like WP:WALLS explains, it leads to WP:TLDR. At core, the infobox is about accessibility for certain audiences which would need certain information quicker rather than having to search through a lead which is essentially walls of text, and it's a reasonable assumption to make that not everyone who reads Wikipedia is on an equal academic caliber. For the purpose of attaining to multiple types of audiences, I support the infobox. InvadingInvader (userpage, talk) 19:26, 7 November 2022 (UTC)
• Comment: I only opine on infobox inclusion if a sample of the desired prospective infobox is presented, so I would like to request a sample for this article. Please ping me when presented. If none is presented prior to the closing of this RFC, then the closing admin should count this as an Oppose vote. Thank you. Softlavender (talk) 07:29, 8 November 2022 (UTC)

  @Softlavender: See Special:Permalink/1111496762 for an example.Geraldo Perez (talk) 08:01, 8 November 2022 (UTC)

• Support. In my mind the infobox in the link presented above offers sufficient useful information to the reader, in a quick and useful format not as easily or quickly gleaned from the lede, to warrant its inclusion in this article. Softlavender (talk) 08:18, 8 November 2022 (UTC)

@Softlavender:, I note that this proposed infobox demonstrates well how undesirable the infobox would be: For example, 1) It includes a line for education and links to her grade school, which she attended up to age 11. This does not comply with MOS:IB, which explains that an infobox "summarizes key features of the page's subject". It is not a key aspect of the subject. 2) It has a line for "Known for", stating that she is known for Dance Moms, but she left that show in early 2016, aged 13. She is better known for her music videos with Sia, and since 2016, she has concentrated on film work including, most recently, The Fallout and Spielberg's West Side Story. 3) The box mentions her sister. This is not "key" to an understanding of the subject. Since 2016, Ziegler and her sister have very rarely appeared together and have totally separate careers. Much more "key" information is given in the Lead section, and the information given in this proposed infobox lacks nuance and is, if anything, mostly misleading. -- Ssilvers (talk) 08:32, 8 November 2022 (UTC)

1. The grade school can and very probably should be removed from the infobox. 2. Items can be added to "known for". 3. I strongly disagree about relatives. In my mind, that's one of the most important features of infoboxes – if they have notable relatives, they can and should be listed in the infobox whether or not the subject associates with them. This gives instant important, relevant information to the reader. Softlavender (talk) 09:43, 8 November 2022 (UTC)

I would fully concur with this opinion. Grade school ain't important; we've traditionally only listed university education, and Known For can be expanded. Again, we don't like WP:Walls of text in discussions, so why should we have walls of text as our leads for readers who could reasonably assumed to like them less? InvadingInvader (userpage, talk) 06:58, 19 November 2022 (UTC)

We can fix most of that without trashing the infobox entirely. InvadingInvader (userpage, talk) 19:39, 8 November 2022 (UTC)

• Oppose – per WP:CLUTTER. --Guest2625 (talk) 02:06, 2 December 2022 (UTC)
• Support: consistent UX across similar pages + WP:SURPRISE (readers are now used to infoboxes) + makes it easier to directly find some key information, especially for non-native speakers. A455bcd9 (talk) 22:31, 3 December 2022 (UTC)
• Oppose per User:Ssilvers and others - her career at this stage is not capable of useful summary in infobox style it seems to me. Johnbod (talk) 04:12, 5 December 2022 (UTC)
• Comment: I have submitted a WP:RFCL for this RfC. Thanks! Nemov (talk) 13:54, 5 December 2022 (UTC)
• Support as an useful and immediate view of some key biographical informations. I can't find any strong reason on why an infobox would be detrimental for readers, the cited concerns seem minor or very weak (i.e. the "frequent errors" issue, as if "frequent errors"/vandalisms are an infobox specialy and not added in the bodies of the pages). Cavarrone 16:22, 8 December 2022 (UTC)

  I know, I find that argument exceedingly odd and weak. Very grasping-at-straws-y. I’d say 80% of my edits are vandalism reverts and I’ve never seen any bias toward infoboxes. “If in doubt, remove” is a perfectly good rule of thumb. Dronebogus (talk) 21:03, 8 December 2022 (UTC)

  Personally, most arguments against infoboxes I see as fearmongering against the worst which rarely if ever happens. Wikipedia isn't something where we have to implement metal detectors everywhere; we're not the World Trade Center or the Capitol on January 6, and we shouldn't have to prepare for fallout. InvadingInvader (userpage, talk) 17:57, 9 December 2022 (UTC)

Nonsense. This is the most important encyclopedia in the world. It should be well written. Articles should present information clearly and in context, emphasizing the most important information. Starting off with a boilerplate box that contains less important factoids and leaves out all nuance and context is a very bad way to start this article. -- Ssilvers (talk) 18:41, 9 December 2022 (UTC)

Then how come various WP:FA's on personalities have one (as examples, see Laurence Oliver, Amy Adams, Priyanka Chopara, or Brad Pitt)? How come most people who have attained some sort of fame have one? Why should Ziegler be an exception to the standard? WP:OSE, per its page, is generally a good argument when making comparisons to GA's and Featured Articles. Well-written articles generally have infoboxes. It's not necessarily a codified standard, but it's informal enough that it's a reasonable assumption to make that most readers of the most important encyclopedia expect infoboxes for celebrities. If you think otherwise, maybe be bold and remove all of those peoples' infoboxes, along with other celebrities and notable figures like Bebe Rexha, Chloe Lukasiak, Gayle, Tate McRae, Bryce Hall, Macaulay Culkin, John Watson, Alvin Malnik, Tim Cook, Natarajan Chandrasekaran, Joe Jonas, Fred Astaire, GAI, Stevie Nicks, and WAYYY too many others to mention (and maybe try not to get reported for disruptive editing). InvadingInvader (userpage, talk) 19:35, 9 December 2022 (UTC)

Please let me know by what definition you "start" an article with an infobox? Reading on a mobile, I first see the lead, then an infobox. On a broader screen, I see the lead left (where a reader of English looks first), and an infobox right. Both can coexist, serving different needs of readers (sometimes the same person with a different question) side by side, and why we have debated that coexistence for so long is a mystery to me. Recommended reading that helped me: Infoboxes: time for a fresh look? by Brian Boulton (10 Jul 2013) and User:RexxS/Infobox factors. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 08:22, 10 December 2022 (UTC)

• Support - Infoboxes are highly useful/informative to many and as someone else once said, I prefer to serve those people rather than coddle those who simply don't like they way they look. EnPassant♟♙ (talk) 20:53, 9 December 2022 (UTC)
• Oppose Infoboxes are OK for career politicians, for example, that list the various offices that they have held, or for professional athletes that list all the teams that they have played on and championships won. But for creative professionals, we should be encouraging readers to read actual prose, in particular the prose in the lead section which should summarize and contextualize the person's artistic significance. A list of data points cannot possible convey that kind of nuance. Cullen328 (talk) 04:02, 10 December 2022 (UTC)

  We don’t force readers to read the “right” way. I can’t emphasize this enough. Dronebogus (talk) 11:02, 10 December 2022 (UTC)

  Why prose in the first place? Some people just want data…better to cater to both prose WP readers as well as “data mining” WP readers rather than exclude one or the other. InvadingInvader (userpage, talk) 18:07, 10 December 2022 (UTC)

• Support - per inevitable. The tides are in favour of adding infoboxes to bios pages, so it's useless to stand up against it. Sooner or later, an infobox will be added. GoodDay (talk) 23:05, 10 December 2022 (UTC)

You just said that editors should not stand up to a bad addition to an article. I disagree. -- Ssilvers (talk) 04:04, 11 December 2022 (UTC)

Well to me and apparently GoodDay, Infoboxes are good additions to an article. InvadingInvader (userpage, talk) 07:38, 11 December 2022 (UTC)

GoodDay didn’t actually specify either way— I take their vote as neutral on quality, but also implying that it’s not worth fighting a popular idea that isn’t harmful. Dronebogus (talk) 08:15, 11 December 2022 (UTC)

• Support inclusion of infobox for this article. The preference to include an infobox for this article was established upon its creation and no good reason has been shown for forcing its removal. In the absence of a strong consensus favoring its omission (a consensus unlikely to emerge) the status quo should endure and that condition is with the infobox in place.--John Cline (talk) 10:27, 11 December 2022 (UTC)
• Support per nom, these infobox arguments are a waste of time. There really is no valid reason to not have them, and push comes to shove I would vote to just add them in almost every case for readers that just want brevity.--Ortizesp (talk) 03:58, 12 December 2022 (UTC)
• Support per above. [Invited by bot]. ~ HAL333 22:48, 12 December 2022 (UTC)
• Support - linked here from related discussion at Talk:Mackenzie Ziegler. I think this would be just as valuable at both pages, given the quick access to genre, works, and associated acts. It's of encyclopedic value to summarize this info in an infobox. — Shibbolethink ^{(♔ ♕)} 16:38, 17 December 2022 (UTC)

Discussion

I'm removing this from WP:CLOSE for now and extending the RfC since this discussion came up in the other related article. This should be allowed to come to clear resolution. Thanks! Nemov (talk) 01:41, 10 December 2022 (UTC)

I didn't notice this at the time, but after I extended this RfC and removed the close request an IP account added it back.[2] I've removed the request and it can be added back in a couple of weeks. Nemov (talk) 17:18, 17 December 2022 (UTC)

To clarify any doubts. I support adding an infobox & it shouldn't matter why. GoodDay (talk) 17:38, 15 December 2022 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.