This is an archive of past discussions about Lviv. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page.
I posted a week back in response to Drbug's June 2004 statement that Lviv is by far more used in English than L'viv, but since no one noticed I'mposting at the top. I would argue that Lviv is used more often then L'viv because people are using an erroneuos name. The name of the city is L'viv, not Lviv, just as St. Petersburg is not Leningrad. Lviv certainly has less of a "right" to be the name of the city then Lvov, Lwow or Lemberg. It's not even Russian, where does Lviv come from??? To back this up I'll cite sources:
Britannica is inconsistent, but in other (newer) articles such as this article about Przemysl, it properly calls the city L'viv.[7]
Just to be completely honest I have no idea why Ukrainian place names often have apostrophes, I would just as soon get rid of them, but it's not my call since they do have them. So anyone in support of renaming the article L'viv, or are we stuck with Lviv?--Milicz20:16, 17 February 2006 (UTC)
The above conversation is very old—current practice dictates Lviv.
Since then we have changed the de facto policy (as documented at WP:CYR). For article titles and mentions in the text, Ukrainian place names which don't otherwise have a well-established English name (the exceptions include Kiev and the Dnieper river), are romanized using the official simplified National system of transliteration, which is how the Ukrainian government publishes official modern place names. For transliterating Cyrillic in the first line of an article, we use a more detailed system. Details of the transliteration systems are in romanization of Ukrainian.
The apostrophe represents the soft sign ь, which softens the preceding consonant (palatalizes it). It's a type of sound which is rare in English. This type of detailed transliteration is desirable to convey the original spelling and pronunciation of a Slavic word written in the Cyrillic alphabet, but it is not really helpful for the use of proper names in English. —MichaelZ. 2006-02-17 22:10 Z
Thank you for the explanation for the apostrophe. I understand current practice states Lviv, but is this not a misnomer? Whare does the usage of Lviv stem from?--Milicz22:30, 17 February 2006 (UTC)
Earlier discussion
this is definitely insufficient information on Lvov. Without some more history, esp. that of the atrocities of my fellow countrymen during the Second World War, it practically comes to nothing and could just as well be erased, I´m sorry. No, I´m not.
To User: 24.105.197.133
I have no reason to introduce any nationalist fuss to this subject. My family derives from the former Red Ruthenia and amongst my ancestrors were Poles and Ukrainians. I consider myself neutral in quarrels about Polish-Ukrainian history.
1. Majority of historians agree that Lviv area was part of the are mentioned by Nestor for 981.
2. Lviv was never conquered by Poland. The rights to this city were inherited by Piast dynasty. The war about Lviv was between Poland and Lithuania - so the term conquest is very inadequate.
3. Lviv was never taken by Chmielnicki.
4. On 3rd of November the Polish population of the city raised against against Western Ukrainian Republic. There were no regular Polish forces at that time.
5. Poles weren't foreigners in Lviv. This city was part of Poland by centuries. In the same way Polish nationalists could say that Germans were foreigers in Wroclaw in 1918. It is ridiculous, is not it? Less natioanlism, more facts, please. User:Yeti
Yeti: I have no reason to introduce any nationalist fuss to this subject.
Yet I say: good, so why does it seem to me that you did introduce the nationalistic perspective?
Yeti: My family derives from the former Red Ruthenia and amongst my ancestrors were Poles and Ukrainians. I consider myself neutral in quarrels about Polish-Ukrainian history.
Yet I say: I don't care where your family comes from; I also don't care where my family comes from. Your consideration of yourself just might be generous.
Yeti: 1. Majority of historians agree that Lviv area was part of the are mentioned by Nestor for 981.
Yet I say: that it seems to me, the spot that would LATER become the city/capital L'viv probably was part of the "Cherven-Red" acquistion by "Rus'" (Ruthenia) in 981. But what does that mean? The campaign included some battles with the nascent Polish state by the nascent Rus' state. When did Poland (the Polanie) get there? Some say 960. Did they rule there as conquerors or settle there? Or find their own people already there? The local people show evidence of the Greek religion from the time of their incorporation in Great Moravia before 960 from what I've been taught. Was Rus' there pre-960? Some believe so.
Yeti: 2. Lviv was never conquered by Poland. The rights to this city were inheirited by Piast dynasty. The war about Lviv was between Poland and Lithuania - so the term conquest is very inadequate.
Yet I say: L'viv was invaded by Poland's armies from 1340-49, leading to continued rule. Poland also invaded the area in 1018-31. Before the invasion of the 1340's L'viv's castle had already been destroyed by Polish invaders at least once. That the Piast dynasty inheirited L'viv, this might be one way of looking at it, but not the only one. How could a mere cousin claim inheritance, especially when his predecessor was not accepted but poisoned? The civil war which resulted seems to suggest that your view was not so unanaimous at the time. I didn't know there was a war "about" L'viv, tell me more!
Yeti: 3. Lviv was never taken by Chmielnicki.
Yet I say: you should tell that to the people who inscribed a memorial to his capture of the local castle with the helpofL'viv's residents in the fall of 1649, a memorial which still stands!
Yeti: 4. On 3rd of November the Polish population of the city raised against against Western Ukrainian Republic. There were no regular Polish forces at that time.
Yet I say: I think they did about then as you say. They were the majority then in the city, so that makes sense. When have I disputed that?
Yeti: 5. Poles weren't foreigners in Lviv. This city was part of Poland by centuries. In the same way Polish nationalists could say that Germans were foreigers in Wroclaw in 1918.
Yet I say: a) Let's look at 'foreigners' objectively. When one invades another country, one is a foreigner, at least until one successfully turns the country or area into one's own (for example through permanent dominance, or majority status)! Thus, Poles were foreigners in L'viv at the time of it's founding. Thus Poles are foreigners in L'viv today, beyond any doubt and for most of the past century. The question is more grey between 1918 and 1939, when the area was "in" Poland, but supposed, by international agreement, to be enjoying autonomy (self-rule) which Poland did not provide. And from 1772 to 1918, what were Poles (or Ukrainians for that matter) under the foreign rule of Austria? And from 1349 to 1772, what were Poles to the area around L'viv but foreign conquerors? settlers? colonists? And when the Poles came to form a majority in the administrative center of L'viv, weren't they foreign to the majority of the surrounding countryside and it's people? Weren't they surrounded by a sea that was foreign to them? The Poles almost succeeded in making the area a stable and irreversible addition to Poland. But they did not succeed in the end.
b) L'viv was part of Poland for centuries, not for most of Lviv's history, though. And the Poles came as foreign invaders, and later as colonists. and they contributed greatly.
c) Sometimes we do what we don't wish to do. You have again introduced your nationalistic perspective (perhaps chauvinism is a better word) to the question by bringing up your favorite topic, Poland, this time on it's Western border. This is not about Poland's agenda. It's about L'viv, which from the beginning was not Polish and is not today. The role that L'viv played in Polish history was important to Poland and needs to be told. For L'viv's history, it's a minority topic, but a substantial one. Let's describe it in true proportionate terms.
LISTEN, MINORITY TOPIC??? LOOK at the list of people who make a history of Lwow. Architects, writers, philosophers, politicians.... etc. - 90% is polish.
Lwow is a typical polish style city, (Krakow, Zamosc, Lublin ) and the role of polish people for Lwow are ESSENTIAL. Without Poles Lwow wouldn't be one of the most Facinating cities of Europe. (It's like London without english people)
According to your point of view the English are foreigners in London (they overtook it in 6th cenbtrury), Germans in Berlin (12th century) and Americans in Washington. As well as Poles in Warsaw. And also Poles and Ukrainians in Lwow. Always someone other was before. But the city was build by Polish.
(Maybe the Ukrainians have choosen the place, but this is the same situation like with London - the people who lived there before English have founed a place end the english built the city.)
Almost all of historic buidings was made by polish architects and constructors: Opera, Theatre, most of churches and of course cemeteries: Łyczakow, Orleta Lwowskie. It's polish city inhabitet by Ukrainians.
I respect you nation and your rights but not to this City - Semper Fidelis.
User:24.105.197.133
To make the thing funny a few weeks ago I was called to be an Ukrainian nationalist. As both sides call me nationalist it makes me sure that in fact I am neutral.
I belive that Wikipedia should give as strict information as possible, without removing inconvenient facts.
Belive me or not but I did not include Polish nationalist mitology in my entries. If you read Polish nationalist wersion of the history of the city you could be shocked. I would like to to ask you to avoid introducing Ukrainian nationalist myths. It has no point.
2. It is problem of interpreation. i belive that we are able to work out the neutral version.
3. It is what I mean. Chmielnicki took the castle only and withdrew after he received the ransom. Think: The city was inhabited mainly by Poles, Jews and Armenians. It was full of people who escaped from death from Cossack hands (I mean Ruthenian nobles as well). If the city was taken majority of them would be killed (the same way like in the other cities). It is why they decided to pay huge ransom than to let the Cossacks in. Your comment is a typical example of national mithology.
4. According to your point of view the English are foreigners in London (they overtook it in 6th cenbtrury), Germans in Berlin (12th century) and Americans in Washington. As well as Poles in Warsaw. And Ukrainians in Lviv. Always someone other was before.
Lviv area was Ruthenian/Ukrainian: 981- 1018, 1034-1077, 1080-1349, 1945/1991 - 2004. Total: 407/351 years.
Polish: about 960-981, 1018-1034, 1077-1080, 1349-1372, 1386-1772, 1918-1939.
Total: 468 years.
If we consider the history of the city only (from 1256), the accounts are even more favourable for Poland. I do not intend to suggest that Lviv is Polish, but to make you remember that that heritage of the city is multiethnic. It is beautiful about history of this city. And talking about the Poles as foreigners have nothing to do with history as a science. History is not ideology.
The choice of dates is very interesting. On the one hand it tries to look at the city of L'viv through the narrow lens of a competition between two ethnic groups. History tries to describe L'viv on its own terms: A Ukrainian city in Ukraine founded by Ukrainians (at that time called Ruthenians). Like the rest of Ukraine, living under foreign rule for most of it's history. Multi-ethnic in its middle years and taken over by a neighbor who settled there to build a majority and for whom it served (formerly, that is) as a major city and cultural center.
Setting up L'viv as a competition field for Ukrainians vs. Poles is like comparing apples to potatoes in a contest over which has the best leaves.
You confuse 'nation' meaning people with a 'state', meaning political unit. L'viv was in a Ukrainian state for the years you mention. L'viv was in a Polish political state for the years you mention. That's poitical history.
But L'viv was part of the Ukrainian nation/people since Lviv's founding. This nation/people stretched one hundred kilometers to the west of L'viv past Peremysl' (Przemyshl) to Sianik/Syanok). When the Ukrainian people/nation of the L'viv region changed from the Ukrainian to the Polish state/nation, they came under foreign rule. The foreigness of this rule was perceived by the Polish rulers, who called the area "Ruthenian Voyedvodship." At the risk of stating the obvious, they didn't do this to part of the Polish nation!!! Later, the popular consciousness of the Polish people/nation called the area of L'viv kresy, borderland. This Polish point of view was accurate and an example of accurate historical memory. (That's not what the Ukrainians who lived there for so long called it. For themit was their land, not their 'borderland'!)
Like many rulers of this time, ruling was not enough. The effort was to totally take and change and absorb--to make Galicia proper Polish. And they came so close! They ruled the city, ruled from the city, disfavoured Ukrainian continued residency in the city, achieved a settlement, then a majority and cultural dominance, then a spotty patchwork majority in surrounding areas. Poland was on the verge of overwhelming majority, of changing the area from formerly Ukrainian to presently mixed to soon to be Polish with some rapidly declining and assimilating minorites. But it was not to be, and efforts and massive transformation of a 600 year process suffered an overwhelming reversal.
To describe L'viv as Polish or even as a Polish/Ukrainian competition is to leave history and live in a shattered dream that almost came true.
To describe L'viv as a Ukrainian city is to summarily state a fact, is to state a foundational fact. And this fact in the end endured. . .and endures today.
Foreign perspectives add to this history, but to change this foundational enduring history is to damage history itself, and make history to serve a foreign point of view and take a walk down the path to fiction.
Regards,
204.105.197.133, Feb 22, 2004
Sorry, but your answer is typical national myth. It has nothing to do with facts.
A few days ago I was talking with one Pole, who was born in Lviv. According to his interpretation of the history of the city Ukrainians have no historical rights to the city. According to him many historians and ethnographers call that Ruthenians collonized this area just a century before it was subdued to Poland, when the Mongols attacked Ruthenia. According to this interpretation Lviv never was an Ukrainian city but short period 1240-1340. Utill that time this area was pinhabited mainly by Polish speaking population. All were Polish speakers.
Is this interpretation worse than yours? I do not thing so. Of course it is myth as well. But this is not a place for myths.
As to the Polish/Ukrainian city: as usually, both sides are correct and none is correct. From Ukrainian POV the city of L'viv has always been an Ukrainian city since it shared much of the history of the rest of Ukraine and has always been a Ukrainian city regardless of the ethnicity of its' population or the rulers that had sovereignity over it. That's why in Kyiv Book Museum (in Pecherska Lavra) all the books published in L'viv since the middle ages until 1945 are named Ukrainian books published in foreign languages, even if they were Polish translation of the Bible.
On the other hand Polish POV underlines that Lvov has always shared the Polish fate and before it became a multiethnic/Polish city it was but a tiny settlement with a small castle on the hill above it. One can't deny that what the city is now is an effect of hard work of many Poles, and that before WWII the city population was mostly Polish. Of course it was the Ukrainians that started the settlement there, but nobody will say that Berlin is a Polish city just because the Slavs started it.
And finally, the NPOV policy is to mix all of the above and underline all aspects of the city's identity and history. That's why the article doesn't say that it's a Ukrainian or Polish city, but tries to explain its' history. I must say that I'm perfectly satisfied with it, although there is a lot of work still to be done. Halibutt10:40, 7 May 2004 (UTC)
Post some facts on this-that would be helpful!
please list some historical references of Polish activity in the area pre-1300, for the increase of knowledge on this topic.
Looking forward to it.
204.105.197.133 Feb 23, 2004
I do not do that, because I am not going to play the game who was the frist and to whom the city belongs more. It just stupid. P.S. Some my text missed what changed my intentions. The last sentence is out of context. Sorry
User:Yeti
The recent additon, "many Jews were killed," is not very informative. I'm not arguing with the fact (I don't know history that well), but if Jews were killed, than the question is, were the Jews in particular targeted and if so, by whom? Were other civilians (Poles, Ukrainians) killed as well? Who did the killing? What are the sources of this information? You can't just add a sentence lile this without explanation. And, by the way, could you, 213.189.178.202, pick a nickname and log on to the Wikipedia?
Bartosz 00:00, 24 Mar 2004 (UTC)
In 1784, the first university was opened by Joseph II, Holy Roman Emperor. Initially, lectures were held in Latin, German and Polish.
The university wasn't opened in 1784 only reorganized. afaik it was created in 1661 from Jesuit college. Also lectures were only in German before 1870s. Maybe someone knows more detailed facts and could rewrite that section? N.N. 13:37, 26 Mar 2004 (UTC)
A question arouse during working on the article on semper fidelis, is todays ukrainian Львів once again завжди вірний or should the phrase refer only to historical Leopolis. Please stop by at Talk:Semper fidelis if you can comment. N.N. 13:50, 26 Mar 2004 (UTC)
Some of them are really famous (even if in some areas of specialisation only). But many of them are not known outside POland. I do not think that at least some of them are necessary. Yeti22:27, 5 May 2004 (UTC)
When I compiled the list I focused mostly on the ones that really had some international meaning or at least deserve a wikipedia article. I cut countless sportsmen, pioneers of farmers union movement or any other guys that nobody remembers of. However, if you think that someone unimportant got onto the list - say who. But please note that it's always better to add new names to the list rather than cutting it. Especially the list needs some more Ukrainians (or at least I believe so). Halibutt00:49, 6 May 2004 (UTC)
Obviously, it is quite hard to assess who is famous enough. Besides, I suppose that it is as difficult to find famous Ukrainians from Lvov before 1945 as famous Poles from Wroclaw.Yeti12:36, 6 May 2004 (UTC)
Probably, but there must've been some famous people born there after the war. Or were there? Halibutt13:27, 6 May 2004 (UTC)
I'm beginning to think that L'viv has (or probably "had" is a better word) some unusual views on being famous. What other city of less than a million has over fifty famous people? Pretty lucky, no? With the vast article treasure trove on Wikipedia, only say 20% of these famous people have articles already. Is L'viv ahead of the curve on famous people? Ok, so some are only known (at some unspecified level) in their fields of study. And, well some are known ONLY in a neighboring country (but they're still being published in the encyclopedia of a language far away?) Come on, let's trim this list to a fitting level for an article on a large regional city.
Genyo12:24, 7 May 2004 (UTC)
PS We've already established the standard modern English usage is L'viv--why did someone put in pictures with the outdated name of the city? Would someone please make a correction? Let's have some reasonable teamwork here.
That's because for more than 100 years Lwów and Lemberg were important academic centres of science and culture, one of the most important in Polish history. It was one of the centres that attracted the most liberal and open-minded in 19th century and the importance of Lwów University could be matched only by Jagiellonian University. Would you like to cut the List of famous Oxonians just because Oxford has only 100.000 inhabitants?
If you find this list too long we could move it to a separate location (List of famous Lvovians), but cutting it just because L'viv currently has less than a million seems... strange, to say the least.
Finally, the picture of Lwow University of Technology was taken long before the war. As far as I know there's no L'viv University of Technology (and there never was such a university). There's only L'viv State University, which is not the same thing, is located in a different building and is by no means a descendant of the pre-war Politechnika Lwowska. Do you suggest we renamed all the pictures of A7V to Leopard MBT just because Germans do not use the earlier any more? Halibutt16:42, 7 May 2004 (UTC)
Well, Halibutt, we need to distinguish between a certain point being made and arguments. Let's start with the less important one, the arguments. The argument is not that L'viv should have a shorter famous person list, because of it's moderate size--the real argument is does this city really have so many famous people??? And one way of checking is to find another city of this size with such a list. If there aren't, any reasonable observer would ask some questions. First, why such a long list? Was L'viv really such a wealth of talent? Or is there a non-NPOV reason? If the second is true, one might look at the list for clues as to bias. What words, themes recur over and over? And well, one of the first words to come up would be Polish! The list would seem designed to portray L'viv as so Polish!
And as for the comparision to the Jagiellonion University, with all due respect for the professors and laborers at the University in L'viv, the comparison to Jagellonian is really disrespectful! I can read about Jagiellonian in an English language history of "universities," but L'viv, no!
Now, let's move on to a point made. At the risk of stating the obvious, in order to be on a list of "famous L'vivians," there are two INDISPENSIBLE CRITERIA:
1) they be BORN (or least spend substantial time RESIDING) in L'viv!
2) they be FAMOUS, which means widely known to readers. At a minimum, they should be recognizable to readers with a bachelors degree in their area, they should have made a contribution of world-wide importance, or be among the top several people in their field.
IF the justification for the list is that they are known in Poland, that is a perfect reason to delete them! Why enslave L'viv to a neighbor, the city has suffered enough already! They must be of sufficient standing world-wide to be included. (For example, someone who was prominent in Polish literature should be included; someone prominent only in Polish chemistry circles, not internationally, absolutely shouldn't).
Ok, Genyo, first of all: calm down. No need to use so many exclamation marks, we're all civilized people.
Then, as to the comparison to the Jagiellonian, what exactly do you mean? With all respect to Jagiellonian University, Lvov University was of the same (if not greater) importance in some aspects. Lvov School of Mathematics (Stanislaw Marcin Ulam), logic and philosophy (Alfred Tarski), engineering (Ignacy Łukasiewicz) - were all on a very high level. No similar schools coulkd be found in Cracow at that time. The city was important to world science, not only to some local minds. But what if it wasn't that important? Would it mean that those people are less famous or important?
Then, do you think that the fact that you can't find any information about the university on the web is an objective, measurable criteria? Even here on this very wikipedia there's plenty of info. Just browse through this list if you don't want to look further.
As to the list of famous Lvovians: I guess you don't speak any slavic language, do you? All Slavic languages are flexible. In Ukrainian the nominative is L'viv, but all other aspects start with Lvo-, just like the nominative is sik (juice), but the plural is soky. (see: Warsaw but Varsovians). The way I put this down is not just another example of my Polish bias or POV or anything. I simply believe that this term is accurate (apparently regardless of the language)
As to the objective criteria - here I agree with you, absolutely. The names should be worth of putting into wikipedia, not just guys who lived and gained some local fame for a week or two. But whom of the people presently on the list does not match the criteria? Try to be more specific and I'm sure we could work something out.
Finally, you are right that someone is obviously trying to underline his (or hers) point by constantly adding that this or that person was a Pole. I erased the nationality in most cases since I believe that they are currently specialists and scientists rather than Poles or Ukrainians or Kwa-Zulu. I left the nations only where it was crucial (the militarymen mostly). Someone (anon, User:Delirium and some other people) reverted my changes and put the nationality even in cases where it is completely irrelevant (like in the case of count Dzieduszycki, who was more of a Austro-Hungarian conservatist guru and international philosopher than a Polish noble. It seems that I'd have to correct this once again. ([8]) Halibutt02:56, 8 May 2004 (UTC)
For all those interested: there is a much fuller list of people born in Lwów/Lvov/Lviv/L'viv/Lemberg/Lemberik/Lvuv here. The list has some additions in Polish, but the names remain unchanged.
Also, an interesting sidenote to a discussion I had some time ago with one of German contributors about using Google as a checker whether a person is important or not. Just take a look at Ignacy Mościcki. He definitely deserves a note as the president of Poland (if not for his inventions), yet he gives back only 200 hits in Google. Strange, isn't it. Halibutt05:47, 8 May 2004 (UTC)
L'viv Opera House
I think the picture labelled as the "L'viv Theatre" is really the L'viv Opera House. Can someome confirm that and make the correction?
Genyo19:54, 5 May 2004 (UTC)
Work in progress
I'm currently preparing a completely new version of this article. I'll post a link to the project as soon as the first version is ready. Halibutt13:42, 9 May 2004 (UTC)
Ok, the new version is partially ready. I used the names of the city as per the Talk:Gdansk agreement (meaning that the official name is used whenever possible. You can check it at User:Halibutt/Lwów. I'll appreciate any help from you on that project.
Notes:
That version is by no means ready, so fix the mistakes rather than complain about them.
The page title is only a working title, I do not propose to change the name of this article.
Looks fine, but the name between 1867 and 1918 should be Lwow, because Polish was the official language and Lemberg looks weird.Yeti20:59, 11 May 2004 (UTC)
Well, AAMoF there were three official languages in "the city" at the time: Latin, Polish and German. Obviously Polish was spoken the most, so I will change that. Any other suggestions? Or perhaps I'll replace the current version with my project and we'll see. Halibutt22:38, 11 May 2004 (UTC)
New Version
Ok, I replaced the article with a new version. I hope it's acceptable to all. I'm sorry if I forgot about anything, feel free to correct me. However, since many people are somehow fragile when it comes to L'viv/Lwów/Lvov/Lemberg, please try to be delicate. Let's be civilized and not start edit wars, ok?
As to the most important parts still needing attention: I collected lots of info, some of it is available through the web. The links are as follows (Note: it's unsorted and partially in Polish):
Independent Ukraine
Today Lviv is still considered to be one of the main centres of Ukrainian culture and much of the political class in Kyiv originates from Lviv.
This is in the article. Is there anything to back this up? Are any of the important politicans from Kyiv or in the Verkhovna Rada from Lviv? I'm not aware of many high-profile ones. Even Yushchenko is from Ternopil, isn't he? I think it's Medvedchuk's brother or brother-in-law is the head of the tax agency in Lviv. That's at least one powerful person. Matthias5 22:40, 14 Dec 2004 (UTC)
Business and Industry
I know that there was a bus factory during the soviet period. I think it was operational until a few years ago. Its name was something like L'vivavtobus. I think that recently the contract to build buses was awarded to a firm in Dnipropetrovsk. Of course some people see this as favoratism towards the Kuchma's cronies. As for the rest of industry in Lviv, I'm not aware of much. Matthias5 22:36, 14 Dec 2004 (UTC)
I have no info on the subject
Transport
There's an extensive marshrutka system now. Plus there are 9 trams. I could probably dig up a map of the routes of each tramline. Matthias5 22:36, 14 Dec 2004 (UTC)
I can do the tramways since I know the history of tramways in Galicia pretty well
Government
The municipal site is not very informative on the topic. Anyone?
Lviv is by far more used in English than L'viv. Drbug 10:05, 11 Jun 2004 (UTC)
I can't believe no one fought this change. I vehemently protest the name of Lviv, we should not propogate mistakes, Lviv is a misnomer. Lviv is used more often then L'viv because people are using an erroneuos name. The name of the city is L'viv, not Lviv, just as St. Petersburg is not Leningrad. Lviv certainly has less of a "right" to be the name of the city then Lvov, Lwow or Lemberg. It's not even Russian, where does Lviv come from??? To back this up I'll cite sources:
Britannica is inconsistent, but in other (newer) articles such as this article about Przemysl, it properly calls the city L'viv.[16]
Just to be completely honest I have no idea why Ukrainian place names often have apostrophes, I would just as soon get rid of them, but it's not my call since they do have them.--Milicz00:21, 11 February 2006 (UTC)
The apostrophies are there because in ukrainian language many consonants may be softened and apostrophy shows that softening. The difference between L and L' is something like between "L" in words laugh and lure. Many other names have also soft sounds in it.
derivation of L'viv
When I lived in Lviv, I heard the following from multiple sources. Some sources think that L'viv derives from the genitive case of Lev. Accordingly, the city should be translated to English as [city] of Lev or Lev's.
What do you think? Matthias5 22:36, 14 Dec 2004 (UTC)
In modern ukrainian genitive case of Lev is Leviv, so it wouln'd be really correct. And also - we do not translate China as "The centre empire" and Thailand as "Free land". So leave L'viv to be L'viv.
Well, actually officially it was named as Lvov as the genetive case of Lev, but due to the Soviet censorship the Academy of Science of the Ukrainian SSR decided to call the city Lviv as the translated version of the Russian. The name should be Lvov not because that is how it's being called in Poland and Russia, but because it is its actual historic name. I also have no idea why some people prefer to write the city's name as L'viv. That makes much difficult to read it in English as the apostrophe only is being in case of the genetive. By the way, the city of Lev is also officially the unofficial version of the name. Aleksandr Grigoryev (talk) 20:42, 9 September 2008 (UTC)
Famous Leopolitans section. Is it necessary?
I do not mean to touch any raw nerves but does an article about the city of the scale of Lviv need such a section? Such section is appropriate for smaller and relatively obscure cities whose famous people may help "put it on the map" of the world or of the region at least. Lviv already is very well on the map and it is obvious that a city of this scale and with this history had to produce lots of famous people. While a separate Famous Leopolitans article may be useful with a link to it from Lviv at "see also" section, this section in Lviv harms the article by diluting it. I simply would like to hear opinions of those involved with an article. Thanks! Irpen 03:26, May 18, 2005 (UTC)
In my oppinion, such sections are necessary. They work not only for small towns, but for big cities as well. In addition, most university articles (even on the most famous ones) mention the notable alumni, eventhough it would be fair to assume that the number of famous people of Oxford, Cambridge or Sorbonne would be quite high and those do not need more advertisment. Halibutt 20:14, May 19, 2005 (UTC)
Having this section in some of the other big cities articles by itself is no proof that it's a good idea. Certainly not a majority of big cities have this section. The analogy with Universities does not strictly apply. The University is an institution whose main purpose is to prepare people with what's necessary to achieve in life and become notable. So, the information about the success of alumni of the university is encyclopedic.
However, if there is any need for the list of all notable people who happen to be born or lived in a city of the scale of Lviv, why wouldn't such a need be served by a separate article Famous Leopolitans with the link in Lviv article? This list for Lviv, if properly assembled, would end up in hundreds or thousands. It is already comparable in length with the rest of the article. Additionally it serves as a battleground for the editors who are tempted to use it to advance their point about the city being more part of one preferable heritage.
I say, let's make a separate article Famous Leopolitans which would make Lviv article more concentrated and reader friendly. BTW, similar section was removed from Kiev article recently with the consensus of the concerned editors. I hope my position did not offend anyone. Irpen 21:22, May 19, 2005 (UTC)
Well, that was simply my point of view. Many such cities have a separate list of notable people and I find such lists really nice and useful. Your argument about future students who would like to know something on notable alumni can be used for cities as well, especially that the artists or politicians' tell much more about the past of such cities than the mere historical note. On the other hand the article is already quite long. Fortunately your assumption that the list might be a grain of salt that could spark disputes between nationalists is wrong so far. At least I didn't see any such problems here, which makes me think that the list is fine (and I must say that I'm quite happy with it).
Perhaps if the article exceeded the 32kB deadline we could move the list to a separate article and live a few names here? I don't know, such a solution would be equally good to me. Perhaps we should wait and let the others express their views. Halibutt
Regarding similar lists for other cities in the form of separate articles, such lists are sometimes nice to look at just out of sheer curiosity. I see a familiar name in the list and think something like: "Wow, and him too. Cool! Wow and this one! Cool! etc." So, having such lists as separate articles are just "nice" but having good city articles is really important. So, we should decide whether to keep the section or not based on whether it's helpful or not for the article about the city. The most significant figures in city history should be mentioned within the text flow. Some people, like Prince Danylo, Prince Lev, King Casimir, Fyodorov (book printing promoter), Boguslawski, Ossolinski and others are already in the text or will be there with future enhancements of the article (I will write about Fyodorov, if no one else does it before me). As for the people who are notable and so happen to be born or lived in Lvov, but their notability has to do with other things than their role in the city history, I have my doubts their list helps the Lviv article rather than hurts it. In similar list in Kiev article, before it was deleted, there was. for example, Milla Jovovich (born there), no doubt a notable person. But why should she be in the Kiev article I simply don't know. Born there, so what? I can't judge for most of the famous Leopolitans currently in the list because I haven't heard of most of them (which of course doesn't mean much). If we create an article with a list of them, with more and more added, this article would satisfy those who would be curious to see such list of people notable in totally different areas but united by being related to Lviv/Lvov/Lwow/Lemberg.
It is a completely different thing for a list of famous alumni in the University article not because it is helpful for prospective students but because providing people with resources that will make them notable is the main mission of the university. The city has no similar mission of producing people as well as any other particular mission per se. The city is just the city. The list of notable Leopolitans is bound to be incomplete and, except of the small fraction of them, their notability has more to do with other things than their just being Leopolitans. Of course the situation is different for small and relatively obscure towns and villages, but not for Lviv.
OK, let's wait and see what other editors have to say. This topic is too new to draw any conclusions. Irpen
In the meantime, we could do a general cleanup of the article, move the not-yet-existent sections to talk page, add more pics, sort the sections and perhaps request peer review? What do you think? I'll start the work on it right away. What do you say? Halibutt
I would be glad to help with what I can, but I can't really do much because I know much less about Lviv than what's already there. I will try to make some edits on what I know, but to contribute significantly, I would need to research the topic. Hopefully, the research of other editors, who know more about Lviv to begin with, will be more productive than mine. Irpen 01:26, May 20, 2005 (UTC)
Other editors, please comment on the discussion above to which I would like only to add that currently the list is already almost 25% of the article length and with some effort could be doubled or trippled with names no less notable than those already there. If compiled rigorously, I am sure there would be thousands of names. I say, let's move it to a separate Famous Leopolitans article but no one but user:Halibutt responded so far. Or am I the only one who thinks the list is out of place? Then simply respond that you object. Or is this a minor issue and I am just wasting everyone's time? Than I am sorry. -Irpen 02:25, Jun 6, 2005 (UTC)
I would support mentioning perhaps a half-dozen most prominent names in a short paragraph, and referring to the whole list in a separate article. I agree that long lists can take a bit of the wind out of an article. —MichaelZ. 2005-10-11 05:55 Z
Rather than purging the natinonalities, clearly relevant, why not spin them all off (with the nationalities) to a separate list article and add a see also link here? --Irpen08:26, 9 February 2006 (UTC)
As for the list, I support Michael's proposal, to keep only a short list in the article, and the more extensive one in a spearate page. However this might lead to confusion as to who is prominent enough to be shortlisted and who is not. As to the nationalities, I'm for purging them, since its main use would be to feed nationalisms of any kind, anyway. Nationalities of indiviuals are often disputed, and whether a person spoke one or another language does not seem important, as Lviv was historically a multinational town. We do not need to prove that it was "more" Polish, or Jewish, or Ukrainian etc. Do we ? --Lysytalk11:46, 9 February 2006 (UTC)
Do I gather that you are saying that we should not mention people's nationalities because it offends your particular politics? Sorry, but (in general) I disagree. I'm not going to fight it here, but in parts of the world where nationalities figure this prominently, I think they should be given. - Jmabel | Talk18:13, 25 February 2006 (UTC)
It is not just "possible" that Ukrainians took part in ethnic cleansing. It is considered established. Ask our Polish friends (Halibutt, how come you didn't say anything to this q. yet?). Now, the most prominent Ukrainian nationalist organizations in the area were OUN and UPA, its later formed armed wing. However, while it could very well be that the thugs who were killing Poles and Jews earlier joined UPA in '42, at the original time of the cleansing in Lviv they were connected with OUN. Now, mentioning OUN should not imply that ethnic cleansing was all they were doing, therefore I replaced "[[OUN|Ukrainian collaborators]]" by "Ukrainian coolaborators (see also [[OUN]])". That OUN has to be mentioned in connection with murders of the Poles and Jews is beyond doubt. I repeat that the mention does not imply that all of OUN was involved or that this was the main or the only goal of OUN.
I checked in the literature and found out that I was mistaken. There was no post-war Ukrainization of the area. I removed that.
Yakudza, it is not "Wiesenthal's opinions" that accuses the OUN and the UPA, it the conclusion of most mainstream historians that these groups carried out ethnic cleansing. Prof. Dr. John-Paul Himka, one of the more prominant historians of the Ukraine, wrote "The opening of Soviet archives makes it intellectually more difficult for the diaspora to remain in denial concerning war crimes perpetrated by Ukrainian militia and police in German service and Ukrainian nationalist units. A major study of the destruction of the Jews in Eastern Galicia documents the participation of Ukrainian police in the execution of Jews.[45] There has also appeared a monograph specifically devoted to the Belarusian and Ukrainian police which provides a more detailed account of their criminal activities.[46] UPA’s atrocities against civilians have been documented in riveting archivally based studies by Jeffrey Burds.... During the war OUN leader Yaroslav Stetsko expressed his support for German-style eliminationist anti-Semitism" [17]. And what does the Deschênes Commission have to do with anything? --Goodoldpolonius201:03, 11 October 2005 (UTC)
The Article of prof. Himka has publicistic nature. This not scientific article. However prof. Himka nowhere speaks of participation ukrainian nationalist in Holocaust. He speaks "A major study of the destruction of the Jews in Eastern Galicia documents the participation of Ukrainian police in the execution of Jews." Ukrainian police is not nationalist. The Ukrainian nationalist traditionally name OUN and UPA. If were a clean data that Ukrainian nationalists organized a massive pogrom, he their has brought. "The mass murder of Poles in Volhynia by the Ukrainian Insurgent Army (UPA)" and murder of Ukrainians in Volhynia by the Armia Krajova has a no relations event in Lviv. The mass murders of political prisoners by the NKVD in Lvov are still frequently confused with the anti-Jewish pogroms of the local population and with the liquidations perpetrated by the SD.[18] -- Yakudza08:14, 11 October 2005 (UTC)
Indeed, we should not generalize and always cite the context. However, the ethnic cleansing did happen and it was organized not by separate civilians but by one organization. And this should also be noted.
Perhaps he meant the fact that there were less than 10% of Ukrainians there before the war and a huge majority from 1950's on?
Of course it was, just like it was a centre of other minorities living there, including the German, Jewish, Hungarian, Armenian... there was also a Roma communitty strongly connected to the city of Lwów (or rather its' borough of Stryjskie Przedmieście) and even a Scottish cultural society had its seat there (yup! descendants of 17th century immigrants from Scotland)... Halibutt06:29, 11 October 2005 (UTC)
I am glad we agree on some things too. I am also against generalizing and the context is that animousity of Ukrainians towards Poles was caused by historical conflicts in which Poles often had an upper hand, particularly in the interwar time (we all know the details). However, Polish interwar policy towards Ukrainians in the Polish controlled territory mostly amounted to cultural suppression and not to ethnic cleansing. I said so myself in UPA article.
partly this, but also that Soviet policies in Ukraine followed the trend: Ukrainization first (to take a firmer hold), than Russification, once the full control is established. Since Soviets got the Western UA later, the times of this policies shifted. Same with Bukovyna, where the first goal was to suppress Romanian resistance and only after that suppress Ukrainian self-determination. In both areas treatment of Ukrainians in the interwar period (by Poland and Romania, respectively) was pretty harsh and there were lots of bad feelings, that helped escalate situation. However, by the end of the war, there was no need for the Soviets to worry about controll of the area, so Ukrainization was unnecessary. Nevertheless, the fact is that despite large influx of the Russian speaking migrants from other areas of the SU, the Ukrainians became an overwhelming majority in Lviv, which means that even more came from the local rural areas. That was added to the article but was reverted repeatedly as part of several wholesale reverts.
Well, the same way today's Russia portrays Saakashvili and Chechen rebels as the tyrants, the same way it did 60 years ago in my land. For some reason no one wants to recognize what was done to the Ukrainian population during Polish and Russian occupations. So Bohdan Khmelnytskyi was the lunatic, another Chechen rebel, and the same goes for Mazepa, Makhno, Dovbush and many, many others.
Ukrainization is a myth. It never existed. Russification and Polonization, on the other hand, has taken place. I do not understand on what grounds Irpen is trying to prove the existance of Ukrainiazation. One is certain that it cannot be on the sympathetic grounds. With the great difficulty Ukraine seems to be recovering from the enforced Russification and Russians call it the Ukrainization. Why? The Ukrainian language is the official language. Yet, the Ukrainian government subsideses the Russian-oriented educational institutions. On what grounds? Why not Mr. Medvedev does it? That's not all. People who speak Ukrainian are also perceived as pro-nationalistic and uneducated and seems as though they should speak any other language than Ukrainian. OUN-UPA simply tried to protect the Ukrainian population, but were used to be portrayed as the villians on the propogandic purpose. Aleksandr Grigoryev (talk) 21:31, 9 September 2008 (UTC)
Soviet times and WWII
Вся моя жизнь во Львове так или иначе связана с улицей генерала Чупрынки (ранее — Пушкина, ещё ранее — Потоцкого). До войны здесь жили зажиточные поляки. Немцы выгнали поляков и превратили район в «нур фюр Дойче». После войны дома заселили русские в разнообразной форменной одежде (к ним принадлежал и мой отец), а также специалисты, присланные со всего Союза. Напомню, что в послевоенные годы въезд во Львов строго регламентировался. В 50-е и даже 60-е годы, которые хорошо помню, украинского населения здесь практически не было и, естественно, все общались по-русски. С конца 60-х — начала 70-х годов прошлого века украинский язык начал не быстро, но уверенно осваивать улицу. Так длилось лет двадцать, в 1991 году произошёл резкий скачок, в одночасье сделавший украинский общепринятым языком. Подавляющее большинство русских без особых проблем перешли на украинский язык, что вполне соответствовало сложившейся к тому времени структуре населения
Rough translation for those of us who are unfamiliar with Slavic languages:
All of my life in Lvov was, this way or another, tied to the General Chuprynka Street (formerly - Pushkin's Street, even earlier - Potocki's Street). Until the war mostly Poles lived here. The Germans expelled them and turned the street into a Nur fur Deutsche area. After the war the house was settled by Russians in workers' suits (among them was my own father), as well as various specialists, sent there from all around the USSR. It is to be noted that in the post-war years settlement in Lvov was allowed only under special permits. In the 1950's and 1960's, the years I remember well, there was ractically no Ukrainian population here and most of the people used Russian in everyday speech. At the end of the 1960's and the beginning of 1970's, the Ukrainian language started to slowly but steadily conquer the streets. Then in 1991, 20 years afterwards, there came a huge jump which made Ukrainian the most prominent language. Huge majority of Russian speakers switched to Ukrainian with no problems, which fully reflects the structure of the population.
Now on to my comments: firstly, the story of the street mentioned is somehow special since the most notable expulsion of Poles (roughly 70% of pre-war population of the town) were carried out by the Soviets, not by the Germans. As to Lvov being a centre of Ukrainian life prior to WWII - that's true. However, it's also true for other minorities living in the city, including Jews, Germans, Scots (the only active centre of Scottish Anglican church in Poland back then), Russians and many, many more. Halibutt18:03, 7 October 2005 (UTC)
The author of the article in "Mirror weekly" means that Germans expelled Poles from the neighbourhood of Potocki-street in downtown (not the whole population of the city). It may be not true. The author did not live at that time. It would be nice if somebody had more reliable information.--AndriyK18:30, 7 October 2005 (UTC)
That's exactly what I understood. And, to be frank, it seems credible as Germans created Nur fur Deutsche zones in almost every major city in Poland. Halibutt03:59, 8 October 2005 (UTC)
First of all, nobody commented on part of the passage that Pushkin street was renamed to Chuprynka's (not even to the historical Potocki's name). What was wrong with either of the former names, BTW? And what was wrong with Peace St. in Lviv to rename it to "Stepan Bandera Avenue", rather a controvercial figure to put in mildly. OK, could not help mentioning but this debate is for Ukrainization article. Back to the edits to the article:
phrase "Nazis turned on their Soviet ally". The POV that the SU and Nazi DE relationship could be called "Allies" is a valid one but not universally accepted. True, the SU and DE together partioned much of the Eastern Europe, but whether it means that they were allies in full sense was discussed at talk:Allies of World War II article and it was agreed not to use this term in the end. "Broke non-aggression pact" correctly describes the facts without using a terminology that is not yet agreed upon
Mentioning OUN in connection with ethnic cleansing is explained above. I repeat that it does not mean that ethnic cleansing was a single goal of OUN or that this was the only thing they were doing. But they were involved, read OUN article, argue there first.
"Nazis Occupation was replaced by the Soviet one"... Please note that Lviv became part of the SU before the Nazi advance. Initial partition of Poland by SU and DE was indeed an occupation. However, driving Nazis out in '44 was a different event. The article still does not use the term "liberation" for obvious reasons. "Axis forces were driven out" is a correct and neutral description of facts.
Original "In spite of the furious Russification policy of the Soviet Union, the city became a major centre of Ukrainian culture..." sounds pretty strange. How could this happen? I elaborated on that. I think the new version isn't contoversial.
I think that's about it for my recent edit. Now, may I ask you to also take a look at the discussion above of the proposal to spin off the Famous Leopolitans section to a Famous Leopolitans article. It just makes the article clumsy IMO, but if it is just me, we can keep it of course. Please do read a discussion above though. Thanks and I hope there will be no wholesale unexplained reverts. --Irpen02:45, 10 October 2005 (UTC)
"Original "In spite of the furious Russification policy of the Soviet Union, the city became a major centre of Ukrainian culture..." sounds pretty strange. How could this happen? I elaborated on that. I think the new version isn't contoversial."
There is as much logic as the Russian Federation today tries to justify its invasion of Georgia. It is simply another example that tries to deny the existance of the Ukrainian culture. It is all lies. You can justify those fictitious facts with whatever literature that you want, but you will never understand why the things there are the way they are. You have to actually be there and talk to people to understand why those "crazies" name their streets in the name of terrorists. Aleksandr Grigoryev (talk) 21:54, 9 September 2008 (UTC)
Link to Roman Serbian article
I do not think that the link to the publication about Nazy Criminals of Ukrainian ethinicity residing in Canada is relevant to the article about Lviv city. If it is here only to make a point to the discussion, maybe we should move it here? Please explain the relevance of the link. abakharev23:55, 10 October 2005 (UTC)
I say cut it, it isn't relevant to this article, and is a pretty biased piece anyway, written based on the author's "experience in public relations". --Goodoldpolonius201:06, 11 October 2005 (UTC)
However, it should be noted that Alfred-Maurice de Zayas is a rather controversial figure and his works are not very much accepted in the mainstream, maybe because he raises the issues that make even scholars uncomfortable, but also, possibly, because he is considered by some an "appologits historian". I do not subscribe to any labels attached to him, I am just presenting a situation that we need some scepticism in accepting his conclusions. See for example Evacuation of East Prussia and other WP links to WP article about him. There is an interesting, but long discussion at talk:Evacuation of East Prussia. If you can't read it all, earch for "zayas" string at the talk. --Irpen07:13, 11 October 2005 (UTC)
Pogrom
User:Irpen has called in group of support User:Ghirlandajo, which absolutely incompetent in historie of Lviv, and uses Wiki for propaganda russian imperializm (see User talk:Ghirlandajo). Mention of OUN is false and explained me in talk and in brought by me reference. No given confirming participation OUN in pogrom. The Necessary adduction of the article (the section World War II) in POV. (user:Yakudza forgot to sign. --Irpen)
Just to make sure I understand your point correctly, are you saying OUN has no relation to ethnic cleansing at all or that it's just that pogroms in Lviv have no relation to OUN? A good review if the current situation in Ukrainian historical thought is "War Criminality: A Blank Spot in the Collective Memory of the Ukrainian Diaspora" available online. --04:48, 12 October 2005 (UTC)
Although OUN is best known for its actions against Polish civilians in 1943, there seems to be hundreds of documents to support its complicity in actions of 1941 as well. The IPN so far did not investigate the Lwów pogroms of 1941. However, it did investigate the murder of Lwów professors carried out by the Germans with the help of Ukrainian units. It is obvious that, although neither the Vovka unit (formed as early as 1937!) nor the Nachtigall Battallion were subordinate directly to OUN, they were formed of OUN members by the OUN itself. The latter unit was formed before the WWII broke out of volunteers recruited in Poland by the OUN itself, examined by the OUN command in Kraków, trained in secret OUN training camps in Poland and only then sent to Germany for further training. Nachtigall entered Lwów as part of the German front guard, on June 30, 1941, that is even before the Wehrmacht reached the city. There are numerous accounts to support the thesis that it did take part in the massacres of Poles and Jews, including the Massacre of Lwów professors. However, the matter is disputed by Ukrainian historians (most notably Myroslav Kalba, a veteran of the unit and the only person so far to write a monography on it). Anyway, the matter still needs more investigation. Halibutt06:32, 12 October 2005 (UTC)
Not exist given about participation OUN in Massacre of Lwów professors
"In the night of July 3/4, 1941, between 10 p.m. and 2 a.m. several units composed of the SS, police and field gendarmerie under the command of SS officers rushed into private homes of the professors of the higher academic institutions and arrested all men above 18 years of age found in their houses."
OK. Thanks for change. I wrote above in answer User:Goodoldpolonius2. However prof. Himka nowhere speaks of participation ukrainian nationalist in Holocaust. He speaks "A major study of the destruction of the Jews in Eastern Galicia documents the participation of Ukrainian police in the execution of Jews." Ukrainian police is not nationalist. The Ukrainian nationalist traditionally name OUN and UPA. If were a clean data that Ukrainian nationalists organized a massive pogrom, he their has brought. Prof. Himka does not bring such data. "The mass murder of Poles in Volhynia by the Ukrainian Insurgent Army (UPA)" and murder of Ukrainians in Volhynia by the Armia Krajowa has a no relations event in Lviv. Ethnic cleansing in Volhynia certainly occurred at participation of some subdivisions UPA. "The mass murders of political prisoners by the NKVD in Lvov are still frequently confused with the anti-Jewish pogroms of the local population and with the liquidations perpetrated by the SD." Alfred M de Zayas -- Yakudza07:26, 12 October 2005 (UTC)
This is crazy, someone has now changed the pogroms to being "alleged pogroms" -- what basis is there for this? The only argument I have seen on this page is whether the OUN is involved (and the evidence against is dubious), but no source doubts that there were Ukranian pogroms in Lviv that killed thousands of Jews. There is even a movie of the pogroms. This is totally unacceptable. --Goodoldpolonius213:18, 12 October 2005 (UTC)
Ah, yes, the alleged pogrom of alleged Jews in what is alleged to be a city called Lvov or Lviv in what is alleged to be a country, allegedly called Ukraine, during what is alleged to have been World War II. Or the Great Patriotic War, depending on who is doing the alleging. -- Jmabel | Talk16:41, 12 October 2005 (UTC)
If somebody can povide the referencies confirming relation of the collaborants to OUN, please do so. Otherwise you cannot assert this in the article. Please remamber the Verifiability Policy of Wikipedia.
Most of collaborants did not have any definite political orientation (nationalist or other). If in Lviv it was different, it should be confirmed by reliable sources.--AndriyK22:31, 15 October 2005 (UTC)
I cited my sources. Also, I have a bulletin of the 2003 IPN-organized conference on the 1943 genocide of Poles and in the foreword the fact that the Nachtigal battalion was formed by and of OUN members is mentioned. Halibutt11:07, 16 October 2005 (UTC)
Concerning Nachtigall, they were indeed Ukrainian nationalists related to one of the branches of OUN. But I did not see any evidence for participation of Nachtigall in Pogroms. All, what I know, they fighted Red Army being a part of Wehrmacht. Are there any sources confirming their participation in Pogroms? I think, it is higly unlikely. If they were related to Holocaust, they would not hold public talks and publish articles in journals in USA in 1960 [19].--AndriyK20:44, 16 October 2005 (UTC)
Many Poles still think that the professors were massacred by the Ukrainians. If this were so, the Hamburg prosecutor would not have admitted after the war that it was done by his fellow countrymen - the Germans. When Helena Krukowska lodged a complaint at the Ludwigsburg Court concerning the murder of her husband Wlodzimierz and other professors, Prosecutor Below replied that those guilty of the murder were: Himmler, F rank, Schöngarth, SS-Standartenführer Heim and probably SS-Hauptscharführer Horst Waldenburger, but they were no longer alive and the remaining guilty individuals were still being sought. The prosecutor admitted that only the firing squad consisted of Ukrainians dressed in SS uniforms.
"Ukrainians dressed in SS uniforms" could not be Nachtigall soldiers: Nachtigall was a part of Wehrmacht, not SS.--AndriyK09:42, 17 October 2005 (UTC)
Here is a citation of one of your sources: Akcja Wisła
1941 r. do Lwowa wkroczył ukraiński batalion „Nachtigall”, dowodzony przez Romana Szuchewicza, współpracownika Bandery. Po zajęciu Lwowa banderowcy ogłosili publicznie (przez lwowską rozgłośnię radiową) niepodległość Ukrainy. W deklaracji tej wyrażona była też chęć współpracy z Rzeszą Niemiecką, dzięki której Ukraina osiągnęła wolność. Na czele nowego rządu miał stanąć bliski współpracownik Bandery, Jarosław Stećko (który jednocześnie był jednym z przywódców batalionu „Nachtigall”). Banderowcy byli na tyle pewni sukcesu, że o uznanie niepodległej Ukrainy poprosili oficjalnie rządy kilku państw, w tym Włoch, Rumunii, Węgier, Słowacji i Japonii, a nawet Watykanu8. Prawdopodobnie liczyli na to, że stawiając Niemców przed faktem dokonanym, zapewnią sobie ich poparcie. Chcieli też prawdopodobnie wyprzedzić zamiary swoich przeciwników z OUN Melnyka. Cokolwiek jednak było ich zamiarem, faktem jest, że Niemcy wrazili wobec nich całkowitą dezaprobatę. Zażądali odwołania deklaracji niepodległości, po czym aresztowali przywódców rewolucjonistów. Stefana Banderę i Jarosława Stećko osadzono w obozie koncentracyjnym w Sachsenhausen9. Rządy Stećki trwały 12 dni. Część aresztowanych banderowców zostało zgładzonych w niemieckich więzieniach
As to Nachtigal - it was a part of both the Wehrmacht and the Abwehr. In the latter case it could've worn any uniforms they were given.
As to the source - indeed, I must've missed this one. But here you go with others (English translation below).
[24]W inwazji na ZSRR Oberlaender występował jako przedstawiciel Abwehr II. Do tej grupy wchodziła też 6-osobowa "delegacja " OUN-B, posiadająca gotową listę profesorów, którzy mieli być zamordowani. Grupa przeszła San k. Radymna i wkroczyła do Lwowa w nocy z 29 na 30 czerwca 1941 r. Przez następne kilka dni Ukraińcy z Nachtigal dokonywali masakry ludności żydowskiej.
During the invasion of USSR, Oberlaender was acting as an Abwehr II officer. Among his group was a 6-people strong delegation of OUN-B, which had a prepared list of professors that were to be murdered. The group crossed the San river near Radymno and entered Lwów overnight of July 29th and 30th. For the next few days the Ukrainians of Nachtigal were massacring the Jewish population
[25]„Nachtigall” został przydzielony wraz z dywersyjnym I batalionem „Brandenburg” do Pierwszej Górskiej Dywizji generała – porucznika Richtera von Lanza. „Nachtigall” postępował w forpoczcie dywizji mając dla niej oczyszczać drogę w marszu na Lwów. Batalion wkroczył do Lwowa nad ranem 30 czerwca 1941 r., Szuchewycz został przyjęty przez metropolitę Andrieja Szeptyckiego. Kalba zaprzecza stanowczo tezie, że batalion wziął udział w mordowaniu żydowskiej i polskiej ludności Lwowa czemu zaprzeczają polscy historycy, sprawa ta czeka na dogłębną analizę.
Nachtigall was attached along with the 1st Brandenburg Battalion of diversion to the German 1st Mountain Division under Lt.Gen. Richter von Lanz. Nachtigall formed the front guard of that division and was to pave the way for it to reach Lwów. Battalion entered Lwów in the early morning of July 30th of 1941, and Shukhevych met with Andriy Sheptytski. Kalba [Myroslav Kalba, a platoon commander and the author to prepare a monography of the battalion - Halibutt] fiercely declines that the battalion took part in murdering of Polish and Jewish inhabitants of Lwów. His version is however declined by Polish historians, the matter needs further analisis.
The author reffers to "Polish historians", but does not call the names. The list of literature at the end cites mostly Communist-time sources. The author admits that "the matter needs further analisis".--AndriyK13:33, 17 October 2005 (UTC)
[26] 4 lipca br. wrocławscy lwowiacy i kresowianie zebrali się przy Pomniku Pomordowanych Profesorów Lwowskich w 1941 r. przez niemiecko-ukraiński batalion „Nachtigall", aby - jak co roku w rocznicę ich tragicznej śmierci - oddać im hołd pamięci. Podniosłą uroczystość zorganizował Zarząd Główny TMLiKPW wspólnie z Politechniką Wrocławską.
On July 4 the Lvovians of Wrocław and other people of Kresy gathered at the Monument to the Murdered Professors of Lwów to commemorate, as every year on anniversary of their tragic deaths, the murdered by German-Ukrainian Nachtigall battalion. The feast was organized by the Main Office of TMLiKPW [Society of Fans of Lwów and South-Eastern Kresy - Halibutt] and the Wrocław University of Technology
[27]Nachtigall Battalion (Ukrainian Nationalists allied with Nazis) torture and execute 51 professors and 100 Polish students in Lwów after Soviets leave. In the first few days of July, Nachtigall and the SS will murder 3,000 Poles and 6,000 Jews
[28]Równocześnie z oddziałami niemieckimi do miasta wkroczył ukraiński batalion SS "Nachtigall pod dowództwem Theodora Oberlaendera. który to batalion brał udział w wydarzeniach opisywanych poniżej.
Together with German units, an Ukrainian SS battalion Nachtigall under Theodora Oberlaendera entered Lwów and took part in the belowmentioned deeds [here comes an explanation of what you can expect - Halibutt]
[29]Batalion "Nachtigall" wchodził w skład Legionu Ukraińskiego, utworzonego przez hitlerowców z ukraińskich nacjonalistów. Batalion był ubrany w mundury niemieckie. W okresie poprzedzającym wojnę z ZSRR był specjalnie szkolony do zadań sabotażu i dywersji w Neuhammer. Szkolenia te nadzorował osobiście profesor niemieckiego uniwersytetu im. Karola IV w Pradze, dziekan wydziału nauk politycznych, porucznik Abwehry - Teodor Oberlaender.Po zajęciu Lwowa przez Niemców nastąpił szczególnie okrutny pogrom ludności, szczególnie żydowskiej. Obok grupy Oberlaendera brały w nich udział jednostki Sicherheistdienstu, tzw. Einsatzkommanda, dowodzone przez personel gestapo, SD i policji kryminalnej. Na terenie Lwowa działały - niezależnie od siebie - dwie grupy: jednostki Abwehry, wspomagane przez nacjonalistów ukraińskich z batalionu Nachigall, formacje Sicherheistdienstu wpomagane przez milicję ukraińską i oddziały Wehrmachtu. Milicja ukraińska występująca po cywilnemu, jedynie z żółto-niebieskimi opaskami na ramionach -stanowiła organ terroru samozwańczego rzadu Stećki, powołanego do życia dekretem wodza Organizacji Ukraińskich Nacjonalistów, Stepana Bandery.
Nachtigall battalion was a part of the Ukrainian legion, formed by the Nazis of Ukrainian nationalists. It was dressed in German uniforms. Before the outbreak of war against USSR it was trained in sabotage in Neuhammer. The training was personally supervised by professor of the German Charles University in Prague, deacon of political sciences department and a lieutenant of Abwehr Teodor Oberlaender. After Lwów was seized by the Germans, a particularily bloody pogrom of local inhabitants, mostly Jewish, ensued. Apart from Oberlaender's group, other units took part in it, including . Einsatzkommandos of the Sicherheistdienst, commanded by Gestapo, units of SD and Kripo. In Lwów there were two completely separate groups: units of Abwehr supported by Ukrainian nationalists of Nachtigall, and formations of Sicherheistdienst aided by Ukrainian militia and Wehrmacht. The Ukrainian militia, dressed in civillian clothes with only yellow and blue armbands, was an organ of terror of the self-proclaimed government of Stecko, created with a decree of the chief of OUN, Stepan Bandera
[30]Wkraczające wojska niemieckie masowo mordują Żydów, ocenia się, że w lecie 1941 roku zginęło ich około 44 tysiące. Z Niemcami wkraczają na (cień Małopolski Wschodniej dwa bataliony ochotników ukraińskich Nachtigall i Roland. Wyróżniły się one masowymi mordami dokonanymi na ludności polskiej i żydowskiej (Nachtigall wymordował np. w dniach 1-7 lipca 1941 roku ponad 3 tysiące osób tylko w samym Lwowie. Po przejściu Wehrmachtu akcję terrorystyczną w stosunku do Żydów, a następnie też do Polaków kontynuuje pomocnicza policja ukraińska.
The advancing German forces organize mass murders of Jews. It is estimated that in the Summer of 1941 44,000 were killed. Together with the Germans two battalions of Ukrainian volunteers enter Eastern Lesser Poland: Nachtigall and Roland. They were particularily infamous for mass murders of Polish and Jewish civilians (Nachtigall murdered over 3,000 people in Lwów between 1st and 7th of July alone). After the Wehrmacht moved on, the terrorist action against Jews, and then also Poles, was continued by auxiliary Ukrainian police force.
[31]When the German army left the Krzemieniec front, detachments of the SS made up of Germans and Ukrainians (the infamous Nachtigall Brigade) entered the town. They carried out mass executions that included the professors and students who had escaped Soviet death, but for whom there was no sympathy even as former NKVD prisoners.
[32]W trakcie uroczystości pojawiła się kontrowersja dotycząca roli nacjonalistów ukraińskich w wydarzeniach 1941 r. Prezes NCA, witając przedstawicieli nauki ukraińskiej, zinterpretował ich obecność jako intencję włączenia obchodów rocznicy mordu wuleckiego do tradycji obecnych uczelni Lwowa. Prof. T. Cieszyński z Wrocławia, przypominając udział batalionu "Nachtigall" w egzekucji profesorów, w żarliwych słowach argumentował, że prawdziwe pojednanie narodów należy budować, ujawniając całą prawdę o trudnej przeszłości.
During the commemoration, a controversy appeared as to the role of Ukrainian nationalists in the accomplishments of 1941. The head of NCA, greeting the representatives of Ukrainian science, interpreted their appearance as an intention of incorporating the commemoration of Wulka hills murder into the tradition of modern universities of Lviv. Professor T. Cieszyński of Wrocław reminded of the participation of Nachtigall battalion in the execution, argued, that true reconciliation can be built only if all of truth of difficult past is unveiled.
All the cited sources just confirm what Zygmunt Albert wrote: "Many Poles still think that the professors were massacred by the Ukrainians." There are inough sources stating that this point of view is likelly wrong. (Even the sources you listed here state that "the matter needs further analisis").
Версію про причетність “Нахтігалю” до вбивства львівських учених 1959 року почала поширювати радянська пропаганда. Професор Василь Косик, автор дослідження “Україна і Німеччина” доводить, що висунуті звинувачення мали ще одне конкретне пояснення. Вони були спрямовані на професора Т. Оберлендера, міністра у справах вигнаних, репатрійованих і переслідуваних під час війни німців в уряді Конрада Аденауера. Лейтенант Т. Оберлендер у червні-липні 1941 р. був зв’язковим офіцером батальйону “Нахтігаль”, що й використали для кампанії дискредитації. Німецький трибунал не знайшов підстав для визнання вини Т. Оберлендера в інкримінованих йому злочинах. Але інформація про “злочин українців” набула розголосу й досі її використовують в ураїнофобській публіцистиці, передовсім польській.
The version of participation of Nachtigall to the murder of Polish scientists was spred by Soviet propaganda since 1959. Prof. Vasyl Kosyk, the author of the study "Ukraine and Germany" proves that accusations had specific explanation. They were directed against Prof. T. Oberländer, the Minister on expatriated, repatriated and persecuted duirng the war Germans in the governmant of Conrad Adenauer. Leutenant T. Oberländer was a messenger of Nachtigall in June-July 1941. This was used in the discreditation campaign. The German tribunal did not found any graund for avowal of guil of T. Oberländer. But, the information about "the crime of Ukrainians" was spread and is still used by ukrainophobic pulicism, espcialy in Poland.
What we have now:
some authors indeed relate the Pogroms and the murder of Polish professors to Ukrainian nationalists
other authors disagree
the version of Nachtigall participation in crimes against humanity was spread by Soviet propaganda
it is not a surprise that historians of Communist Poland were agree with their Soviet colleagues therefore this version was spread in Poland as well.
There were no legal prosecution against "Nachtigall" servicemen related to the crimes in Lviv in June-July 1941.
German state prosecution charged Germans (not related to "Nachtigall") for the crimes.
Is there any reason to assert anything else except that the matter is stil sublect to discussion?
One could write even more clear: "Althow there is no facts concerning participation of "Nachtigall" in crimes against humanity, some authors still continue to repeat the old gossip spread by Soviet propaganda in 1959." --AndriyK14:20, 17 October 2005 (UTC)
Yes and no. You are completely wrong as to commie propaganda. The Commies were more than happy to publicize numerous attrocities committed by Ukrainian units during WWII, but this does not make them less real. Take note that the whole murder of Lwów professors and pogroms of Lwów were banned by the commie cenzorship of Poland and there were no books published on it back then. Just like on the history of Lwów, Wilno or other areas annexed by the USSR. Also take note that I'm using modern sources, and not books by Ukrainophobes (Ukraino-eaters, as we say in Polish) such as Edward Prus.
As to other notes, since the matter is disputed, mostly between Polish and Ukrainian historians, one can't say that it's not. One could equally say that "though there are countless accounts to prove that the Nachtigall battalion was involved in mass murder of inhabitants of Lwów, the matter is disputed by some Ukrainian historians, mostly the veterans of the battalion themselves". Would it be equally right? Yes. Would it be NPOV? Nope.
Yes, Commies were more than happy to publicize numerous attrocities committed by Ukrainian units during WWII. Therefore it looks very strange that they did not do this in Nuremberg Trial (see pages starting from p. 490).
It looks more than strange that the surviver, Prof. Groer, spoke only about Germans and did not mention any Ukrainians. It looks like Soviets discovered crimes commited by Nachtigall servicemen only in late 1950-s. Why not earlier?
I did not see "countless accounts to prove that the Nachtigall battalion was involved in mass murder", all what you've showed me, are countless accounts to prove that many Polish people think so. In fact, not only Ukrainian historians dispute the issue. The name Zygmunt Albert does not sound like Ukrainian. And Łukasz Dykowski admitted that "the matter needs further analysis". Are they both Ukrainian?
There are Ukrainian historians that criticise OUN for many things they did, but still deny participation of Nachtigall servicemen in murder of Polish professors (if you read Ukrainian, I can give you referencies. I don't have time to translate, I'm sorry).
You may distrust the FRG courts, but many former Nachtigall servicemen emigrated to the USA. Morover they declared publically their relation to Nachtigall, but no one was prosecuted. Doesn't it look strange, if your version is true?--AndriyK17:24, 17 October 2005 (UTC)
Lack of trials in the US is not a proof either - just take a look at the long list of Nazi war criminals who found reffuge in the US after the war. Some were even officially cleansed of all responsibility. I understand the natural notion to distrust anything that was said during the Soviet times, but remember that Coprenicus' theories were also taught in Commie schools, which doesn't mean that the earth is flat.
As to the sources I provided (WP:CITE style, not the quotations) two of them mention the complicity of Nachtigall in the pogrom. However, you're right that they only mention street executions and plunder, not the complicity in murder of professors. TRhe biography of Boy-Żeleński also mentions that there are accounts to prove either way here and that the matter should yet be resolved by historians. BTW, I do read Ukrainian. Halibutt06:07, 18 October 2005 (UTC)
The problem is not only that it was said during the Soviet time. The point is why Soviets have hidden this information from Nuremberg Tribunal, if it were true? Or why Prof. Groer did not mention any Ukrainians if they were there? Why some Polish historian deny or doubt the perticipation of Nachtigall in murder of civilians? There are to many questions to be answered before one believes this vertion.--AndriyK18:46, 18 October 2005 (UTC)
And why did they try to blame the Germans for Katyn? Or why didn't they accuse von dem Bach or Reinefarth for the massacres during the Warsaw Uprising? As to other questions - I might ask why do so many Ukrainians try to conceal Ukrainian complicity in the massacres of 1941 and deny the obvious facts? (grain of salt here please).
Andriy, while I do understand your doubts, I think that you're missing the point here. We don't have to make the readers believe either version. We should simply report that there is a controversy and that many people support either version. Halibutt18:56, 18 October 2005 (UTC)
In the case of Katyn, everything is clear. Soviets commited a crime, and they tried to make somebody else responsible for it. Just a normal logic of all criminals. The same for Ukrainians who commited crimes in Volhynia. But I do not see any reasons for Soviets to hide any crimes of Ukrainian nationalists. What is the reason for Polish historians to advocate Ukrainian nationalists?
I guess it depends. However, I'm neither a specialist in the matter nor did I read most of the books I quote here. I can only assume certain things, so I will refrain from commenting on other sources. As to Karolina Lanckorońska, whose memoirs I did read, she believes that the Ukrainians in German uniforms took part in the massacres because she saw them herself. But of course, one might follow Irpen's logic and say that she can't be true since she was there personally and as such cannot be objective... As to Stanisław Sterkowicz's biography of Boy-Żeleński, which I did read, though I admit it was quite some time ago and I did not focus on the Polish-Ukrainian relations too much back then, he bases his Nachtigall story on the relation of Jacek Wilczur, a witness of the July 1941 massacres. For instance, the guy recalled that the Ukrainian unit was called Ptasznicy (Birders) for the emblem of a bird painted on their cars. This encyclopedia does not give any sources at all, neither does the holocaust chronicle, [33], [34] or the Wiesenthal's centre, which, I admit, is often one-sided or wrong in its views.
As to Katyn, unfortunately not everything is clear as the Russian archives are still closed. Back to Lwów - generally understand your views, but they still seem too USSR-oriented for me. The Soviets are not speaking of Ukrainian crimes - it's fishy. They are speaking about Ukrainian crimes - it's fishy as well. While I understand that their ways were at most times strange, I doubt we should treat the Soviet propaganda's behaviour as a proof of anything. Also, note that during and after the WWII the Soviets treated various Polish resistance organizations - Armia Krajowa included - as either collaborationist or simply criminal. Yet, they did not publicize their crimes abroad, not even in the cases where the crimes indeed did happen. The propaganda at home was strong, yet you won't see any mention of the NOW or WiN in the minutes of the post-war war criminals' trials. Why? Only devil knows, I guess. Halibutt00:25, 19 October 2005 (UTC)
Concerning Katyn, I ment the behaviour of Soviets/Russians is clear: the committed the crime,tried to accuse somebody else and noe keep the information secret.
Concerning "Ukrainians in German uniforms", it could be another unit, different from Nachtigall. There was police, fromed from local population. There were collaborators served in SS troops. Where some of them OUN members? I do not see any proof. At least, what I know from my relatives (I am from central Ukraine), collaborator in our region did not have any ceratin political orientation. Some very specific streaks of this persons rather than their political orientation played the key role.
In contrast to other three sources, the encyclopedia you cited does reffer to court decisions. One cannot ignore the court decitions, even if one distrust them. In such a way one can distrust everithing, including all witnesses.
I do not consider Soviet propaganda's behaviour as a proof of disproof. But there is court decision stating "geheimdienstliche Fälschungen".
There are indeed a lot of authors assertin (or alleging?) that Nachtigall did commited crimes agains civil population. We cannot ignore this. But there are the authors saying the opposite. And there are several(!) court decissions confirming the second point of view. We cannot ignore this either. I do not see any other solution, as just to state that there are different POV and the question is subject to discussions.--AndriyK22:27, 21 October 2005 (UTC)
Israel has formally recognized 1,881 Ukrainians as Righteous Among Nations. A few in English: [36]. It would be good to mention that there were those who tried to help the Jews in the Lviv (do we have details on this?), but it is not right to delete or minimize the thousands killed in the pogroms. --Goodoldpolonius217:05, 12 October 2005 (UTC)
The nobel position taken by Metropolitan Sheptytsky as well as some other people is not under any doubt. The issue is whether OUN or part of it was complicit in pogroms. My most recent edit does not link "[[OUN|Ukraianian collaborators]]. Instead, it says "Ukrainian collaborators (see also [[OUN]]". The connection is there, but this does not imply that collaboratos and nationalist is one and the same in every respect. --Irpen17:11, 12 October 2005 (UTC)
1944 Reoccupation or Liberation
I do not see a problem with the term Liberation since it is quite common in non-political western military history. Like here (www.deathcamps.org/occupation/lvov%20ghetto.html): At the beginning of September 1942 there were still around 65,000 Jews in the ghetto, among them around 15,000 "illegals". Some Jews hid in the sewers of Lviv and with help from local Poles survived until liberation. The heavily guarded ghetto was surrounded by barbed wire... --Kuban Cossack16:02, 5 March 2006 (UTC)
After battles on the outskirts of the city, the Red Army occupied Lvov on July 22, 1944. A large majority of the 110,000 Jews who had inhabited this city before the war had long since been murdered. A few Jewish prisoners from the Janowska camp, whom the Germans had employed and considered "crucial," were murdered as the Soviets drew closer in June 1944. A very small number were transferred to the West. Manhunts for concealed Jews in Lvov lasted until the very last days of the German occupation. The Ukrainian population caused many deaths by denouncing Jews and turning them over to the Germans. After the city was liberated, survivors who had concealed themselves on the "Aryan" side or in forest hideouts began to return; Ukrainian nationalists murdered several of them after the liberation. --Kuban Cossack16:06, 5 March 2006 (UTC)
The difference is that other internet sites do not strive for NPOV, whereas we do. And the term "liberation" is highly POV, as POV as it gets. One could say that it was the Germans who liberated that town from the Soviets in 1941, who in turn liberated the town from the Poles in 1939, who in turn liberated the town from Austria-Hungary. Unless there is some serious reason to push the "liberation" version, I'd stick to more neutral wording. Halibutt00:04, 6 March 2006 (UTC)
"Liberation from Nazis" is factual and more specific than more POVish just "liberation". --Irpen00:26, 6 March 2006 (UTC)
Not if you ask those Ukrainians who supported Nazis. It's not that easy. You're promoting Soviet POV by using such wording. --Lysytalk00:33, 6 March 2006 (UTC)
If you ask anyone who supported Nazis, I beleive they will all disagree. But this is not an ultra-right-pedia. As such, we should stick towards the mainstream view that kicking out Nazis qualifies for liberation. --Irpen00:49, 6 March 2006 (UTC)
Not more than earlier Germans kicking out the Soviets does. Unless you believe that the Soviets "liberated" everyone, including Berlin, of course. Such claims seem especially silly for Lviv, where most of the population was Polish :-) --Lysytalk01:52, 6 March 2006 (UTC)
I agree. Moreover I would actually allow the term occupied to be used for the 1939 Soviet intrusion, although judging from the festive photographs that I have seen the term does not seem to fit. Annex, is quite crude as well, when used in conjunction with mentioning the Molotov-Ribbetrop pact. 1944 however is pure liberation, particulary from the Jewish perspective which I have cited. --Kuban Cossack01:43, 6 March 2006 (UTC)
I'd suggest using some more neutral term, then we would not have to wonder what it was from Jewish, Polish or Ukrainian perspective. --Lysytalk01:54, 6 March 2006 (UTC)
I agree. Many would disagree that Lviv somehow became more free after the Soviets arrived. Since the use of this term is controversial and being actively discussed, with several editors disagreeing, Kuban Kazak, please don't keep reverting to it. —MichaelZ. 2006-03-06 17:08 Z
Nevertheless it did become free from the nazis, that is a referenced fact, and the term liberated the city from the axis occupiers is accpetable. Moreover de facto the city was part of the USSR, as recoginised by Chamberlain's statement on the 1939 intrusion into Western Ukraine and Belarus, combined the postwar recoginition to its 1939 owener, in that respect the Soviet Union did free its city from a foreign power. For the Ukrainian POV, this is also true since the Red Army thereby restored the territorial integrity of the Ukrainian SSR, the forerunner to modern Ukraine. --Kuban Cossack18:43, 6 March 2006 (UTC)
Yes, that is one point of view. Another is that the Soviet advance represented the loss of the last Ukrainian lands previously free from Bolshevik domination. The treatment of Ukrainian culture and institutions by the Soviets in 1939 and after 1944 helps support this view. I don't think either can be considered neutral, nor represented as such without any discussion or comment in the text. —MichaelZ. 2006-03-06 19:01 Z
That can well be true for the 1939 intrusion. Although judging for the Polish-interwar policies towards the national minorities, and as correctely stated above, the city was called Lwow by the majority of its population even on the eve of 22 of July 1944, it is wise to assume that Ukrainian institutions in Lviv would not have been so much damaged due to the low amount of Ukrainian population in the city. --Kuban Cossack19:27, 6 March 2006 (UTC)
I'd support the usage of the term liberation only if we were to accept it in all articles, regardless of who liberated whom, from what and for whatever reason. Otherwise, the "liberation from the Nazi occupation" could as well be called "replacement of Nazi occupation with the Soviet one" or simply a "takeover". I still fail to understand what is the advantage of calling the Soviet occupation of that city liberation. Halibutt20:56, 6 March 2006 (UTC)
But the term is used by many western military historians. Besides if Britain entered WWII due to Germany invading and occupying Western Poland, it recognised the Soviet annexation of Eastern Poland. Chamberlain was noted to say: That Russia had every right to the lands that were hers as confirmed by the Curzon line, taken away from her in 1921. Hence Britain recongnises the de facto 1939 Soviet-German line. Hence all of the lands to east of that are Soviet. Hence Red Army, pushing the Germans west would have liberated its own land from a foreign occupier. Concerning anything west of that line...that is a different story. --Kuban Cossack22:12, 6 March 2006 (UTC)
That Russia had every right to the lands that were hers as confirmed by the Curzon line, taken away from her in 1921
Interesting-the sentence would suggest that he didn't reckognise Ukraine as independent entity from Russia. Your statement btw seems to make Russia Equal to Soviet Union. Quite a POV statement it seems.
Btw-the final Curzon line included Lviv as part of Poland if you are going to use that argument.
--Molobo22:32, 6 March 2006 (UTC)
In the first half of the 20th century it was like that, USSR was populary referred to as Russia in the same way Kyiv is referred to as Kiev today. As for the Curzon line, there were two versions of it, and the 1939 border between USSR and Germany was not identical to the Curzon line, but was based loosely on it. --Kuban Cossack23:00, 6 March 2006 (UTC)
Bizarre logic. In fact there were even more versions of the Curzon line and all of the original versions (that is the ones Poland agreed to in 1920) did not include any territories disputed between Western Ukraine and Poland. The border proposed by lord Curzon went along the Bug river to the area of northern Volhynia, while the area itself (together with the city of Lwów itself) was by no means considered Russian back then and was not included in the western proposals. It was not until 1944 that such a line was established and proposed as a new Curzon line.
Accoriding to the map on the article there were two versions concerning the city of Lwow, first one with it on the right, second on the left. The second one was called alternative--Kuban Cossack02:12, 7 March 2006 (UTC)
Also, Russia in its history held the city of Lwów twice: once during the brief occupation of the town during the WWI and then during the WWII. It was as Russian as New York or Cape Town are. Halibutt00:44, 7 March 2006 (UTC)
Since some users insist on using the term "liberation"-would anybody be interested in how "liberated" Poles were ? Especially Home Army soldiers who assisted Red Army in taking of Lviv ? I can find quotes about how they were treated by Soviet forces.
Anybody interested?
--Molobo22:37, 6 March 2006 (UTC)
Please seize the "German occupation was replaced with the Soviet one" thingy. Soviet occupation was in '39 and even then by the same token one might consider that the "Polish occupation of Western Ukraine was replaced with a Soviet one." At least for Ukrainians, who kind of had it in the Second Polish Republic, it was largely the case. Besiders, the territories were attached to the Soviet Ukraine not to Russian SFSR. While Poland in its time simply ignored its obligation to grant Ukrainians an autonomy among many other international obligations it also ignored.
However, by the time of Barbarossa Western Ukraine was the part of the Ukr SSR and Soviet Army liberated the Ukrainian terriotry from the Nazis who invaded it. So, please cool it off. --Irpen23:18, 6 March 2006 (UTC)
Ah then Irpen should we then add that German Reich liberated Baltic States from Soviets ? As to However, by the time of Barbarossa Western Ukraine was the part of the Ukr SSR, well Nazi's also had their administration over areas they took over from countries they took over, so that doesn't seem a strong point.
--Molobo23:22, 6 March 2006 (UTC)
Well regardless of how one looks at it there are official documents confirming the entry of the Baltic states into the Soviet Union. Signed by leaders of those Baltic states, but don't bring OT into a discussion which is being focussed on the city of Lvov. Also the German Reich's occupation was not recongnised by any non-axis power, and all land that Geramany occupied after 22 June 1941 was in all western sources cited as Soviet. --Kuban Cossack23:29, 6 March 2006 (UTC)
Is it me or is there really noone willing to accept some compromise solution here? I believe that this article should be tagged {{NPOV}} as long as the POV vocabulary is there. Either we agree to allow all states to "liberate" their neighbours in wikipedia (Nazi Germany included), or we stick to NPOV vocabulary. Or perhaps there is some other option? Halibutt00:46, 7 March 2006 (UTC)
Of course not. People were indeed liberated from concentration camps, set free from the Soviet GULags, the Soviets liberated Pskov in 1943 and so on. However, if there are disputable cases - and this is definitely one of those - then, for the sake of NPOV, we should stick to neutral wording, without praising one side too much. You wouldn't call the Soviet capture of Prague in 1968 a liberation and the case of Lwów is roughly similar. Halibutt11:04, 7 March 2006 (UTC)
Don't mix salt and sugar, Lvov, like Pskov were Soviet cities, recognised by several world powers (like Britain). The 1968 intrusion into Prague was invasion, and that is said even in Soviet Sources, (albeint in the manner of helping the abused by capitalist propaganda Czechs to retain their freedom) still, Prague was a city in an independentely recognised, by the USSR, country. Lvov was a Soviet city, occupied in 1941-44 by Nazi Germany. --Kuban Cossack11:28, 7 March 2006 (UTC)
BTW, as to the "international obligations ignored" thingie. The Conference of Ambassadors and then the League of Nation granted the area to Poland for a period of 25 years, after which time there was to be a plebiscite there. The plebiscite was to be organized in... you guessed it, in 1947. No wonder why Poland did not organize it then. Halibutt11:07, 7 March 2006 (UTC)
And how does that fit with the fact that the Polish goverment in August 1945 signed a border treaty where the Soviet Union would have ceded Belostok and Peremyshl to Poland in exchange for Poland recognising the lands east of the border as Soviet. The line was demacrated as well. --Kuban Cossack11:28, 7 March 2006 (UTC)
And how does that fit with the fact that the Polish goverment in August 1945 signed a border treaty where the Soviet Union would have ceded Belostok and Peremyshl to Poland in exchange for Poland recognising the lands east of the border as Soviet Be precise-which government ? The one in exile or the one brought by NKVD ? --Molobo 11:56, 7 March 2006 (UTC)Lvov was a Soviet city, occupied in 1941-44 by Nazi Germany Please name the treaty signed with Polish government in the period 1941-1944 which acknowledged that Lviv is part of Soviet Union. --Molobo11:56, 7 March 2006 (UTC)
Maybe a vote
I might ask that a similar Gdansk/Danzig vote might help to resolve the despute for the lands in question. My proposal if we adopt the following standard:
1939-USSR intruded (not invaded) into Poland, waliking across undefended borders to share its spoils of the German invasion of Poland
As this was clearely recognised by several powers (like Chamberlain's statement) we consider those lands Soviet from then on
1941-44 All Soviet lands, including those in part 2; were invaded by Nazi Germany and they occupied them during that time.
1943-44 Red Army liberates all Soviet territory (inc. #2) from the Nazi Germany.
1944 onwards, wether Soviet Union liberates or occupies other countries in Poland or Bulgaria or whatever I could not really care, but to be consistent the phrase (subject to modifications) In 1944-45 Red Army liberated N-city however the Communist authorities and the NKVD who followed in the footstepts did this and that, which caused the some of the people to see it as this and that...etc. can be used by some of the more nationally-conscious wikipedians. Although really this does not fit into the disputed territory
1945 Upon the Soviet-Polish treaty the recognised at Yalta border is demacrated and Poland recieves conscessions in form of Belostok and Peremyshl. Those lands prior to that were Soviet.
#1939-USSR intruded (not invaded) into Poland, waliking across undefended borders to share its spoils of the German invasion of Poland
Why not invaded ? It engaged in several military battles with Polish forces who decided to defend Polish territory.
As this was clearely recognised by several powers (like Chamberlain's statement) we consider those lands Soviet from then on
Please name treaties signed by several powers (well besides Nazis obviously) that confirm they consider those lands to be legally Soviet.
My proposal:
post-1939 - Soviet Occupation
1941-1944 - Soviet occupation replaced by occupiation by Nazi Germany
August 1945, Soviet-Polish treaty which recognised the eastern bordrs on their de facto state; Yalta and Potsdam agreements. --Kuban Cossack11:59, 7 March 2006 (UTC)
August 1945, Soviet-Polish treaty Sorry but you were talking about the period of 1941-1944, not 1945. Let me repeat:
Lvov was a Soviet city, occupied in 1941-44 by Nazi Germany Please name the treaty signed with Polish government in the period 1941-1944 which acknowledged that Lviv is part of Soviet Union.
--Molobo12:38, 7 March 2006 (UTC)
Treaty was worded that Poland accepted the defacto state of the border with minor adjustments (Belostok, Peremyshl). There was not even a mention about the 1921 border. In 1941-44 there was no Poland. --Kuban Cossack13:26, 7 March 2006 (UTC)
In 1941-44 there was no Poland
Poland was occupied, but Polish government existed in exile and even dealt with Soviet Union. So you are incorrect. Now please present any treaty from 1941-1944 signed by that government that reckognises Lviv as Soviet territory.
--Molobo13:54, 7 March 2006 (UTC)
On September 17, 1939 the Soviet Union militarily invaded Poland, in line with the Soviet-Nazi Alliance. After a series of battles, its army was able to capture a large part of Poland.
This was clearly recognized by the Soviet Union and Nazi Germany, but that's about it.
All lands under Soviet control, including the part of Poland occupied by the Soviet Union, were in turn invaded by Nazi Germany
Until 1944 the Red Army liberated much of Soviet territory and also reoccupied much of Poland
User:Harrisonmarks posted a reference to the "War of L'Viv" under the location section. As the title (and similar terms with other spellings of Lviv ... Lviv, L'vov, etc.) show not a single hit, I've pulled it until someone can come up with some evidence backing up what was stated. --DMG41301:53, 21 March 2006 (UTC)
Kuban kazak's reference and "liberation" of Lviv
Let's compare what is written in
Ukrainian
Коли його рідне місто 'увійшло до складу Радянського Союзу', Лема "репатріювали" до Польщі в 1946-му, де він оселився в Кракові.[39].
and what in Russian
После того, как в 1944 году Львов был освобожден советскими войсками, Лем продолжил обучение в медицинском институте. В 1946 году Станислав Лем переехал в Краков, где он также изучал медицину.[40]
So simply: he just "moved" to Krakow after the city was "liberated". And all other Poles of Lviv suddenly decided to move.
Now I am sure, the Russian service of BBC is the most neutral source in the world! :-))) --AndriyK11:51, 27 April 2006 (UTC)
Correct and the Ukrainian BBC has a lot to work on by desvidomising its editors. As the english version seems to also share the Russian one [41] --Kuban Cossack12:06, 27 April 2006 (UTC)
Even your source suggest that "liberation" may be not a reight word
Nazis begin the exhumation and burning of corpses on occupied-Soviet territory threatened with liberation (or 're-occupation') by the Red Army, to obliterate evidence of their genocide and mass murder.
I am a Pole and I do mind. Also note that the author of that page uses the term in relation to the Polish liberation of the city, not the Soviet capture of it.
Firstly, I'm against the usage of the term liberation in any context but the most obvious (concentration camps, prisons, people taken hostage), as it is never NPOV. The alternative is to call every switch of ownership a liberation. The Ukrainians tried to liberate Lviv in 1918, but they failed and the city was liberated by the Poles. Then it was liberated by the Soviets in the course of their collaboration with the Nazis, but was liberated by the Germans in 1941. Finally the Poles and the Soviets liberated the city again in 1945. It was not until 1991 that the Ukrainians liberated it. Bad idea, isn't it.
Secondly, apparently the good old Soviet ways are still alive. In Poland after 1956 the censorship office finally allowed some people to publish their war-time diaries - of course heavily edited and slightly shortened by the censors. Thus all such memoirs started with In 1943 I found myself in Siberia, where I joined the army. Not a single word on how the hell did the person get there. A similar phenomenon applied to post-war ethnic cleansing. A huge number of people all of a sudden found themselves in Wrocław, Kraków or Łódź. Finally, there was also a shorthand phrase that was used in official curricula (under Communist rule one had to prepare such shortened life stories every now and then, much like people in the west prepared their CVs) which ran along the lines of I spent the war in the USSR. In 1956 I found myself in... or I spent the war in the USSR. In 1946 I settled in.... //Halibutt13:11, 27 April 2006 (UTC)
Kuban Cossack, while I agree that Soviet Russia has every right to its own imperial past and you are free to praise it, we're by no means bound by what Russia considers its own. I trace some double standards in your words here. While you most probably wouldn't call Warsaw a "German own territory", you still call other parts of Poland captured by the Hitler's ally a "Soviet own" land. Were the areas seized by Germany after 1941 also theirs? And how about Hungary in 1956? //Halibutt13:14, 27 April 2006 (UTC)
If you meant this edit then I'm amazed. Really, good going. The edit (which was instantly reverted BTW) lacks the verb in the first sentence about the Home Army and perhaps a separate sentence on the wartime and post-war expulsion of most of the inhabitants (numbers/ways of expulsion and so on), but I believe the WWII military part is now described both correctly and neutrally. Kudos! //Halibutt14:22, 27 April 2006 (UTC)
The appropriateness of the term "liberation" in the context of driving out the Nazi regime is now being discussed at the talk:Battle of the Lower Dnieper please see there and discuss there insetad of revert warring or discussiong the same thing at multiple places.
There is another typical problem I see here with an excessive historic details in the broad topic articles, such as article on country or city history (more details may go in the latter of course). As I said multiple times, any article maybe thrown out of balance by the information, even referenced, but too narrow or too detailed for a particular context. All facts, especially the controvercial ones, need to be put in the article of just appropriate breadth and such articles should be linked from the wider articles than duplicated there. In this particular area we can easily find the info, including the atrocities in the Ukrainian-Polish War, nationalist policies of the 2nd Polish Republic in the interbellum, Soviet purges and deportations following the takeover, repression against AK by the Soviets or the anti-Jewish and anti-Polish massacres by the Ukrainians, complicity of Ukrainians in collaboration with Nazis against Jews, Poles and Soviets, complicity of the AK in collaboration with Nazis against the Soviet partisans (see talk:Wilno Uprising) and other such info about the events that did happen. If someone puts such stuff all around WP no matter how broad or narrow the article topics are, this would be killing articles one by one. Some passionate Soviet hater will add the details of the Soviet policies towards the Poles and Ukrainians, than some Polish hater would respond with the info unfavorable to the Poles and someone else would respond to the info that makes Ukrainians uncomfortable. Perhaps Jews were the only group that pretty much suffered in the area under any power. There are narrow articles just for events such as Lwów Ghetto, Massacre of Lwów professors, Massacre of Poles in Volhynia and others that could all use some NPOVing and some renaming.
The city article would just go nuts if we keep dumping the info into it instead of referring to the proper articles and the side reader will have no clue what the hell this all is about. This is the article about the city. Keep it as such. I think, my revert was too deep though. I will try to restore the amount of info which seems just right to me and not too detailed. Please continue the editing with this in mind.
As for "liberation", this is a separate issue. Let's discuss it at a separate talk. No one is using liberation for '39 anyway. Liberation from Nazis is a different matter because the term is widely used in the mainstream. Please see the discussion at Talk:Battle of the Lower Dnieper. --Irpen22:03, 27 April 2006 (UTC)
No offenses meant to anyone but we don't really need to repeat the same thing twice, once under "World War II" and then under "Soviet period"
As the Red Army was nearing the city in 1944, on July 21 the local commander of the Home Army ordered all his forces to commence the Operation Tempest. An armed uprising was started and after 4 days of city fights the city was captured by the Poles, with support by the advancing Soviet tank brigade[2]. After that the civil and military authorities were summoned for a meeting with Red Army commanders and arrested by the NKVD. The remaining forces of Colonel Władysław Filipkowski were either forcibly conscripted to the Red Army, sent to Gulag or returned to the underground[2] [3]
In July 1944 the Polish partisans of the Armia Krajowa in what is called the Lwów Uprising, a part of Operation Tempest. The city was taken in four days, when the Red Army entered it, which coincided with the finale of the Lvov-Sandomierz Operation. Since the main tank battle for the city took place well south of the city centre, most buildings, churches and other historical monuments were preserved. After that the Polish civil and military authorities were summoned for a meeting with Red Army commanders and arrested by the NKVD. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.76.33.109 (talk • contribs)
Thanks! This is exactly what I am tryng to do now. Give me a minute. Halibutt, please no "too bad this or too bad that". I was writing at the talk page when you restored the duplication claiming it's NPOV. --Irpen22:19, 27 April 2006 (UTC)
And in connection to what I am trying to convince others about choosing appropriate articles for the material, shouldn't the pogroms section be moved into a separate article with only summary here? If someone can write a really short summary (I might at some point), such a spin-off would be very desireable. The History articles should be organized chronologically with whatever happenend integrated in chronological text flow. We can create as many narrower articles (and link them from the broader ones) as we want.
Another suggestion would be to spin the entire history into the History of Lviv article like was done in Kiev (which now has a History of Kiev article with just a short summary in Kiev that I wrote). This would require someone writing a summary. Volunteers anyone? Whoever, myself including, does that, please write such summary based on the current version that passed through a multiple edit wars rather than from scratch or (worse) a personal POV. This would actually encourage editors to contribute more on other aspects of the city, like culture, infrastructure, public transportation, etc.
One more time, I would like to reiterate that choosing the article for the material is almost as importnat as to present the facts correctly. Any article maybe thrown off-balance by a detailed elaboration on some topic that is close to a particular editor's heart. Such separation would reduce edit warring, create more encyclopedic articles (including those narrower ones) and would make everyone happy, including myself and my usual opponent(s). For a recent examples see mine and Piotrus' spinning off the material from the History of Poland (1939-1945) which could still use much improvement (see its talk). --Irpen01:13, 28 April 2006 (UTC)
Ok, I'm restoring the NPOV tag then until the matter is solved. Contrary to what Irpen states above, this is about a problem with NPOV in this article, not some other articles. //Halibutt02:14, 28 April 2006 (UTC)
There is no disagreement that this needs discussed. However, Halibutt, yet again is attacking me for no reason. The only context I support the term "liberation" is "from the Nazi". Nowhere I said that for the events of '39 partitioning of Poland (unlike Piotrus' opponet user:Number 6, whoever sock that is). In my edit to which Halibutt reacted in his usually friendly manner I replaced the phrase:
"Following the Soviet takeover the members of Polish resistance were either forcibly conscripted to the Soviet controlled Polish People's Army or imprisoned. "
by a more general statement:
"As in the previous takeover the Soviet authorities quickly turned hostile to the city's Poles (including the members of the Polish anti-fascist resistance)."
This, IMO, is exactly the amount of detail needed for the city article. Also note that even the former phrase was originally mine. The one preferred by Halibutt was even more strangely written:
After that the civil and military authorities were summoned for a meeting with Red Army commanders and arrested by the NKVD. The remaining forces of Colonel Władysław Filipkowski were either forcibly conscripted to the Red Army, sent to Gulag or returned to the underground.
No question about the factual accuracy but that's certainly wrong for the city article. There are articles on Soviet repressions against Poels, there is an AK article and others for that. --Irpen04:09, 28 April 2006 (UTC)
No, Irpen, you are mistaken. I added the tag specifically because you decided to throw the consensus out of the window and restore the ridiculous liberation thingie. I'm not trying to make this article say that in 1944 the city was occupied by the Soviets for the second time, even though it would be perfectly right. I thought that perhaps if we agreed to something in between occupation and liberation that would be NPOV. However, as you're insisting on liberation at all costs - and apparently against pretty everyone here - I added the tag back. BTW, your recent liberation spree, apparently aimed at creating more conflicts in wikipedia, is somehow disturbing. I'm more and more tempted to follow your ways and add the liberation of Kiev in 1941, liberation of Pskov and other Soviet cities to respective articles. Why not after all? //Halibutt12:23, 28 April 2006 (UTC)
Halibutt, as for the "spree" pls don't bring the OT issues. I never ever used liberation for any events other than 42-45, never for '39, never for '19-'20, although some see it such. I only use it as liberation from Nazis. Please move it to the Dnieper Battle article. As for this one, I am amazed that you tagged the whole article over a single word and, at the same time, dared to remove much more in detail elaborated tag at Wilno Uprising. Anyway, as far as this article conserned, would you be satisfied by replacing the global tag by a "dubious" template near the liberation word? That is until the issue is resovled at the other talk page. --Irpen02:43, 29 April 2006 (UTC)
I removed the tag there because it was frivolous, and based on a single comment in a book detailing a completely different area and different units than those to take part in that uprising. Here it's different as the matter is indeed disputed - and not only by me apparently. Before we replace the tag with anything, I'd like to know what is your proposal. As POV pushing is apparently ok with you, I'm planning to change the historical section to reflect the Soviet occupation of the city in 1944. Perhaps I'll even add a word on two on the 1941 liberation from the Soviet yoke, I hope that'd be ok with you. Or perhaps we could still find some compromise wording as we already did with Kuban Kazak? //Halibutt09:39, 29 April 2006 (UTC)
Oh, I forgot to mention that the wiki definition of Liberation might be somehow helpful here. Liberation (...) is often understood as "to be freed (or change) from not having freedom to having freedom". If Lwów was indeed liberated by the Soviets, then I believe we should rewrite the definition. How about Liberation (...) is often understood as "to be freed from not having freedom to not having freedom"? //Halibutt10:10, 29 April 2006 (UTC)
"liberation from the Nazi"
If a prisoner is moved from jail A to jail B, would it be correct to say that the prisoner was liberated from jail A? I don't think so.
Why should we term the replacement of the Nazi dictatorship by the communist one as "liberation"? If one follows Irpen's logic, then Nazi occupation of Lviv should be called "liberation from communist dictatorship". Ridiculous, isn't it?--AndriyK08:47, 28 April 2006 (UTC)
Not really as Nazism has been confirmed as a dictatorship by the Nurenberg tribunual, which also confirmed Lvov as a Soviet city. It is you who is being rediculous. Lvov was liberated by the Red Army, who liberated its own city. --Kuban Cossack11:59, 28 April 2006 (UTC)
Well, the ownership of Lvov was not confirmed by Nuremberg trials. It was confirmed by Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact and then by the Yalta agreement, but not the Nuremburg trials. //Halibutt12:18, 28 April 2006 (UTC)
It was confirmed by the Polish-Soviet border treaty in August, 1945 which amogst other points agreed to cede Bialystok and Pzemyshl to Poland. Those were the terms of the treaty. Thereby by that point the Polish government must have fully recognised the 1939 line as its eastern frontier. --Kuban Cossack20:06, 28 April 2006 (UTC)
...which was also somewhat altered to the Polish favor, btw. --Irpen 02:39, 29 April 2006 (UTC)
"Polish-Soviet" means exactly "Soviet-Soviet". Stalin nominated the "Poles" and dictated any detail of the "Poland".
I have just read "The Soviet soldier didn't liberate us, because he wasn't free". ~(Marai?)
Xx23606:59, 5 May 2006 (UTC)
What? Soviet soldiers not free? What? My freind, first of all learn English to clearely give your thoughts and then begin trolling on talk pages. --Kuban Cossack10:25, 5 May 2006 (UTC)
Soviet soldiers weren't free. It's rather obvious from outside. They were mentally, legally and practically terrorised by the system. Have you read Marai's description of "liberation" of Budapest?
Xx23607:21, 9 May 2006 (UTC)
I'd like to ask shanovny pan Andriyko, do you consider replacement of German Nazi occupation in the rest of Ukraine or AAMOF in Belarus and Russia to be liberation or occupation by Soviet Army? --Imprevu
Ukrainians were very active organizing uprisings in Soviet camps, so they rather voted for "non liberated".
Xx23607:22, 9 May 2006 (UTC)
What Ukrainians? The ones which used to kill their own citizens? How you call those kind of prisoners, that's right, criminals. I believe they have a national holiday today in Lviv. Happy Victory Day to all leopolitans! --(Imprevu16:53, 9 May 2006 (UTC))
Imprevu don't bother feeding this person who goes great lengths to combine the most random facts together, the English is bad enough to read. As for victory day, then I concur, particulary people like Kovpak, Kuznetsov and Medvedev. --Kuban Cossack18:53, 9 May 2006 (UTC)
Do you mean those people, who made more tahn 5 million starve 1932-1933?
"random facts",really.
Xx23607:16, 10 May 2006 (UTC)
I understand it as a compliment. I try to understand the history of Lviv. Do you really believe that I invent? I don't have to, almost any possible crime or error has been done by the Soviets, why to invent?
Xx23613:20, 10 May 2006 (UTC)
Post-war repressions
The article is biased, it doesn't mention Soviet repressions against Ukrainian nationalists.
Xx23613:28, 10 May 2006 (UTC)
Everything is biased to you as long as it does not match your POV. The point of wiki is NPOV, stop trolling on talk pages of the articles. --Kuban Cossack13:32, 10 May 2006 (UTC)
Soviet reprisals to UPA activities afflicted about 500 000 people, of them 150 000 died.
I don't know how many victims were there in Lviv.
Soviets were equal opportunity repressionists against any nationalists. Western Ukrainian nationalists, what were they fighting for? They got their country reunited, rest of the Soviet Ukrainians didn't support them, they already went thru this in 20'th. I guess, it just makes them simply anti-Soviet. Soviets are not an aliens who invaded Ukraine or Russia. They were Ukrainians and Russians in majority...How do you think, they should had reacted toward collaborator of the enemy they've just defeated? "Lets discuss your independence". The whole notion of the soviet over national mentality was not invented by Stalin, it was used and abused by him.-- Imprevu16:06, 10 May 2006 (UTC)
So you mean that nationalism is bad and internationalism O.K.? Does it make internationalistic genocides acceptable? Why do many Russian nationalists
present the international tradition of the SU as Russian nationalistic?
Are they missinformed or they describe rather the Soviet past?
The world is nationalistic, including Communist China and Cuba.
I don't think that genocides are acceptable to create "New Men".
I'm not a fan of the UPA, but is the murder of 150 000 acceptable retaliation?
Poland took away veteran rights of the members of isstrebitelny batalioni of NKVD.
And KC, what's with that flag? I can give you the benefit of the doubt that you have innocent motives. But is that necessary to have in your face attitude in the community which pride itself for working together. What's the profound cultural or national importance you see in the symbol which became associated with another nationalist movement of "patriots". Is that who you wanted to be associated with or are? History? Symbol of Imperial Romanovs Russia. History? Symbol of Pogroms. History? Symbol of prison of nations with russian guard on top of them. All of your common sense and claims of fairness become a suspect of selfish internal motives. Do the right thing, drop it.-- Imprevu16:06, 10 May 2006 (UTC)
Lacking subjects
Brweaking of surrender condition, the murder of the POWs ("Katyn").
Polish Underground under the Soviets
Polish Underground under the Nazis
The mass deportations 1940-1941 and the murder of the prisoners in Summer 1941 are common knowledge. "Citation needed" is ideological manifestation (you liars insult Stalin and NKVD) rather than editor work.
Xx23607:07, 11 May 2006 (UTC)
That's exactly why I removed Halibutt's tag yet again. If this is all about "liberation", he is welcome to take a look at talk:Battle of the Lower Dnieper (and archives) and even say a word or two there rather than spread this discussion to the multitutde of talk pages. If it is about some other words, he is welcome to mark them. If the article is globally tarnished, the common sense demands a clear and concise explanation of the tag added to a talk page by an unsatisfied editor. --Irpen17:26, 11 May 2006 (UTC)
There are a number of issues. One of them is presenting the expulsion of Poles from their land as liberation, but as can be seen above this article is far from perfect and this is not the only issue that should be solved. It's not a problem of a single word, it's a wider thing. //Halibutt05:50, 12 May 2006 (UTC)
Please tag the word as "Disputed". As for the rest, care to elaborate. I started a section for you below. Until then, I am removing the tag. --Irpen05:58, 12 May 2006 (UTC)
Oh, and calling editors who contribute content to Wikipedia as "Vandlals" in the edit summaries does not add credibility, to your action. --Irpen05:58, 12 May 2006 (UTC)
I consider removing a proper tag, in part added due to your POV pushing, a vandalism. I'm sorry if that offends you and I'm sorry if you don't see that. //Halibutt06:06, 12 May 2006 (UTC)
A "proper" tag is the one explained. As long as you keep tagging and not bother to explain your grivances at talk, your tag isn't proper. I hope your feeling sorry will prevent you from name calling for some time. --Irpen06:11, 12 May 2006 (UTC)
Ok, since I've been asked to present a list of issues that need NPOVing before the tag is taken out, then here it is again (most are discussed above). The three most important currently are:
Liberation. If the city was liberated by the Soviets in 1944, then so was Paris in 1940, Minsk and Smolensk in 1941 and so was Stalingrad the following year
The article does not mention the ethnic cleansing prominently enough. The fact that a thousand year old history of the place was purged after the war is quite notable, isn't it.
The mention of the Soviet and Ukrainian terror needs to be reworded as well.
BTW, I'd add a {{POV-section}} tag to where it belongs, but I have no doubt it would be reverted by Irpen as well... (in good faith, as all his reverts are done in good faith I believe) //Halibutt06:36, 12 May 2006 (UTC)
1.There is a thorough ongoing discussion of the applicability of the term at talk:Battle of the Lower Dnieper. The basic point is mainstream usage. No respected scholar uses "liberation" for Nazi occupation of 40-41. OTOH, "liberation" is used for Soviet army's driving Nazis out even within Poland itsef,[44] not just Ukraine (like here) or Belarus.
2 and 3, please care to elaborate or edit directly in the article for us to see what you mean. --Irpen06:46, 12 May 2006 (UTC)
Mainstream usage is a weasel term. Mainstream usage of what? Is Russians liberating Berlin in 1945 any more mainstream than Russians occupying Lwów in 1944? Because it's definitely not NPOV, as has been pointed out a zillion times above. As to other issues - I already stated that there is no need to waste my time on editing articles which would most likely be reverted by Irpen as soon as they appear. It happened a zillion times before and it's kind of hard for me to assume good faith after all of that. //Halibutt07:00, 12 May 2006 (UTC)
No, mainstream isn't weasel. Encyclopedias should first of all represent mainstream. Your view that respected authors right non-neutral books doesn't hold water. No respected scholar can afford POV-pushing in his works. I don't mean to say that all authors always use "liberated". Hence, we should not always use it as well. But we should be allowed to use it along with the other terms and no one can roam the articles others wrote to purge liberate by occupy and vice versa. Here is the source for Lviv in addition to the source above on Poland.[45] Now, please expand the article's lacking sections and leave the word alone. --Irpen07:07, 12 May 2006 (UTC)
1. Seems to be a strong overstatement, the Stalin's regime was certainly much softer than the Hitler's one. It so happened that a number of my grandmother's relatives (cousins, second nieces, etc.) were Wilno/Vilna/Vilnius Jews. They could probably confirm my statement if any of them survived the Nazi occupation (there were I believe around twenty of them).
2-3, yes, please suggest your editing on talk and see it is agreeable for all the involved editors
Sure, the Soviet union did not send people to its death camps on an ethnic basis, rather on social basis. Which however does not make the liberation thingie any more sensible. If the city was indeed liberated, then how come almost entire population was expelled afterwards? I pointed out a hundred times here and there that the very term liberation is POV as hell as there'd always be someone to dispute it in any but the most obvious cases (concentration camps, prisons and so on). And Irpen's suggestion that we should follow what's written by respected authors does not help us here, as there'd always be an author calling it a liberation while others would call it occupation or taking ([47], [48], [49], [50], [51], [52], [53], [54]...). Contrary to what Irpen suggests, liberation is neither a synonym to occupation nor to taking. It is a word on its own, with lots of emotional and historical value. If we are to use it here in such a bizarre meaning, then we should consistently also allow its usage in other situations (see above). Of course, we could fight a revert war over whose author is more respected or whose author is better, but this would make little sense to me.
Authors are by definition POVed, as it is their interpretation of facts that is presented in their books, not just mere facts themselves. Mere facts are found in historical tables, where only dates are presented. I have a book by a respected author who mentions that the Russian soldiers who entered Lwów in 1944 behaved like cattle and calls them the new Huns. Should we add it to the article as well? Nyah, gentlemen. Wikipedia is a different thing, as it does not have a single author and nobody owns any article. Because of that we should either stick to NPOV vocabulary or present both views. In this case presenting both views makes little sense (in the effect of what was seen as liberation by the Soviet authorities, hundreds of thousands of Poles were imprisoned in Gulags or expelled from their city, which was then annexed by the Soviet Union sounds a tad bizarre, doesn't it), but would still be better than what we have now.
To Irpen: does WP policies say that Wikipedia "should first of all represent mainstream"? If you think that the policy should be changed, please try to do it following the corresponding guidelines. Pushing your POV with edit waring and persistance is not the best way.--AndriyK08:03, 12 May 2006 (UTC)
To Alex Bakharev: the view which of two regimes was softer or harder may differ strongly from family to family. Millions of people survived Stalin repressions in 1930s but became victims of Nazis, on the other hand, other millions survived Nazi occupation but died in 1946 famine or in post-war labor camps.
I do not think it's our job here to decide which of two regimes was softer. It is much more important to find a neutral wording and use it to describe facts.
Wikipedia is a unique place were people of different ethnicities, cultures and political orientations can meet each other to find mutuiral understanding and describe our common history neutrally and unbiased.
It's a pity that there are people who use Wikipedia for propaganda.--AndriyK08:36, 12 May 2006 (UTC)
For your information, 1946 famine was not a deliberate one unlike 33, and as you are aware postwar USSR was much more liberal than pre-war Germany. --Kuban Cossack13:00, 12 May 2006 (UTC)
It wasn't in Western Ukraine:
"Soviet reprisals to UPA activities afflicted about 500 000 people, of them 150 000 died".
The Nazis, the bad they were, didn't kill 150 000 before the war.
Xx23613:10, 12 May 2006 (UTC)
Stop putting nonsense onto talkpages, Nazis killed 6 million Jews plus 26,6 million Soviet people, as well as many more others. Once again I ask you to either clearely state what is it that you want the article to see otherwise please end this trolling. --Kuban Cossack14:02, 12 May 2006 (UTC)
Is the one point of view comes across as NPOV should be based on fairness or fact or both?- Imprevu17:23, 12 May 2006 (UTC)
"Nonsense" and "trolling" means everything "Kuban kazak" doesn't like. Stop trolling, because I have enoughy.
During two famines about 10 million died before WWII. The question who killed 26,6 million isn't so simple:
Stalin was coresponsible for the WWII.
Stalin exterminated Red Army officers.
Millions of Soviet citizens collaborated with the Nazis, see RONA, Khatyn, ROA.
Millions? Collaborateors got half a million at most. Stalin (actually it was Yezhov) exterminated offcers BEFORE the war in 1930s. --Kuban Cossack18:15, 15 May 2006 (UTC)
Indeed, had our good father Stalin known of the purges, he would never allow them to happen. These were just errors of the lower cadre of the communist authorities, Stalin was innocent. Right... //Halibutt20:39, 15 May 2006 (UTC)
Please don't waste space for OT comments. Thanks, --Irpen 20:49, 15 May 2006 (UTC)
Don't waste the place for OT comments. Thanks.
Xx23606:41, 16 May 2006 (UTC)
All right, let's try some more constructive approach. There are some Russian wikipedians here who strongly support the version, in which a part of Poland has been liberated by the Soviet Union. Apparently a compromise solution is impossible to reach as thir side prefers the "our POV is the only version possible" approach - at least that's what I concluded after taking part in the discussion and after having been offended several times in a row for proposing some compromise solution (others who tried to reach it were offended as well).
So why not make the statement clear, label it properly and settle the issue? For instance: After four days of the city fights (...) the city was seized by the Soviet Union, in what was seen by the Soviet Soldiers as a liberation? Alternatively we'd have to mention that the city was also "liberated" from its owners and its inhabitants, which I bet would incite even more heated reaction of our Russian friends. What do you say? //Halibutt22:16, 31 May 2006 (UTC)
Why not you try to do this and we will all see how it looks? I bet it would make a great improvement to the article. Looking forward to it, --Irpen22:19, 31 May 2006 (UTC)
I already did - and was reverted on sight and insulted several times. Then Kuban Kazak did it, but was also reverted - though not insulted. So no, Irpen, I won't waste my time only to see you revert my version as soon as it appears there. //Halibutt18:50, 1 June 2006 (UTC)
I never revert any of your good faith edits (which are also plentyfull as I was always pleased to admit). When you troll[56] or WP:POINT[57], your edits are treated differently and not just by myself. --Irpen18:57, 1 June 2006 (UTC)
See? It all depends on your interpretation of what suits your POV and what doesn't, and not on actual facts. It makes no sense to make edits to article you monitor as regardless of sources one would be reverted on sight if only his edits do not conform your POV. Sorry, but I don't have time for that. //Halibutt21:18, 1 June 2006 (UTC)
I would suggest that "seized" is almost as POV in one direction as "liberated" in another. More neutral words are "took", "captured", "gained control of"; in some circumstances, "retook" and "recaptured" might be considered, but in this case those might themselves be bones of contention, for obvious reasons. - Jmabel | Talk22:22, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
Halibutt has this feature of repeatedly bringing up things already refuted. Typical one is to cite irrelevant Volgograd/Battle of Stalingrad to justify other name's Polonization, most despite other cities, unlike Stalingrad, were never actually renamed (see eg talk:Battle of Wilno). This is another strawman he keeps bringing up from talk page to talk page, that I somehow, support liberate when it relates to the Russian forces and oppose it elsewhere. This was explained too. In the context of the 20th century liberate is usable only in when speaking of driving out the Nazi forces. Thus, "liberation from Nazis" is a full term and, just liberation would implicitly imply the same in the WW2 context. OTOH, I never used "liberation" in the context of, say, 1939 occupation, despite it was a Russian advance or in the PUW context, even when it was a Ukrainian advance (will give some thought to the latter issue). I also explained the reason why the L term is applicable in this particular context (WW2). It is because it is a term widely used in the mainstream literature on the subject, including most respected books and encyclopedias, such as Britannica and Columbia. Halibutt's contention that the most respected sources are not NPOV while he is cannot be taken seriously. Britannica has an NPOV policy clearly and any respected historian who writes non-neutrally would immediately undermine his credibility within the academic community. If Halibutt wants to continue going around in circles, I request he brings up some new points at last. --Irpen06:45, 15 June 2006 (UTC)
I'm sorry to disappoint you Irpen, but you got it all wrong. I did listen to your arguments, I did understand them and I did consider them - and yet I don't agree with them. May I? For you, from your own point of view, the term is completely acceptable and neutral. From my perspective it is not, as it is definitely loaded with positive emotions towards the ones to "liberate". Also take note of your own disregard of the sources when I found a source calling the Polish take-over of a Russian-held town with the L word. So, it seems you're proposing double standards here. The USSR could liberate anyone they please, but only the USSR. //Halibutt11:19, 16 June 2006 (UTC)
Halibutt, I can find sources that call '39 "a liberation of Belarusians and Ukrainians" similarly to what whoever called the Polish advance in 1920. I don't use liberation for '39 still because such view is not accepted in the majority of the respected sources unlike '43-45 is. For a similar reason I rejected your usage of this term for 1920. So, USSR could liberate in 1943-45 as per most respected literature and others also could and did liberate from Nazis in the WW2. Part of Europe was liberated by the Allies. I simply stick to the terminology used widely in respected literature. Please seize putting things in my mouth. --Irpen17:28, 16 June 2006 (UTC)
So, the term is POV when applied to Poland in 1920, but it's NPOV when applied to USSR in 1945... and there is no double standards there. I see... //Halibutt03:20, 17 June 2006 (UTC)
I can't believe you read anyone but your own entries. The term is NPOV not only to USSR but to others as well who were liberating the territories from Nazi occupation. Say, Allies liberated France. --Irpen03:25, 17 June 2006 (UTC)
So, was Poland as "free" after the Soviets "liberated it" as, say France? Also, I'd like to point you to a wise comment by your fellow Ghirlandajo: here. Nothing to add really. //Halibutt12:35, 17 June 2006 (UTC)
Halibutt, I am all for expunging strong words from the article titles. Show us a good example and propose a rename of Khatyn massacre to Khatyn incident and we will discuss the rest. As for the usage of the strong words in the article texts, this all depends on not what you or I think about who was freer or which killing qualifies for execution, which for massacre and which for Genocide. We simply check what's the opinion of the majority of the mainstream literature. In the case in question, liberation qualifies because it is used not in one or two and not in Sovier or Russian but in most Western sources. I will not be responding to your pestering on this anymore. Your tactic of tiring your opponents in endless debates is tiresome and works only up to a point. --Irpen04:34, 19 June 2006 (UTC)
Also, note, that what matters is not what I or you think whether PL was not free and FR was. The point is that liberation from Nazis is used. --Irpen04:34, 19 June 2006 (UTC)
There is a problem to be fixed and I'd like to do that. Whether you consider it tiring, or call me names as you do is irrelevant here. This needs to be solved. As a sign of good will I followed your advice and, although I wouldn't support such a move, I proposed the article you mention to be moved (check Talk:Khatyn massacre). Now the ball's on your court. //Halibutt09:30, 19 June 2006 (UTC)
Wow, silly me. Of course I was talking about Katyn as well as Khatyn, but my typo caused the confusion. Still, I thoroughly support ridding both titles from the inflammatory word, while the usage of the word within texts should be allowed. Please see Talk:Khatyn_massacre#Discussion for a full discussion. --Irpen18:20, 19 June 2006 (UTC)
Correct me if I'm wrong: you support the L word specifically because it is used by some sources. At the same time you consider other terms used by the majority of sources on another topic to be inflamatory? Strange reasoning, I must say. //Halibutt07:16, 22 June 2006 (UTC)
On the contrary, I consider the terms used widely in the majority of sources acceptable. --Irpen07:33, 22 June 2006 (UTC)
I believe that the word "liberation" should not be used as main characterizer regarding this occurrence. My opinion is based on the expectation that if a town is liberated, it means that the liberators leave the local population in power, to decide for themselves what and how to govern their town. Such is the meaning of liberation: those who are liberated, are free after it, being unfree before. For these reasons, a much more neutral word should be chosen as the main characterizer of the event, and liberation is to be mentioned possibly just once, wording it like "the new controllers of Lviv called this as liberation of Lviv, and some historiography has repeated that term". Shilkanni09:33, 22 June 2006 (UTC)
Stalin's regime was certainly much softer than the Hitler's one
Stalin let millions people starve before the war, probably more than the number of Holocaust victims was, so generally Stalin's regime wasn't "certainly" much softer.
If we discuss 1944 in Lviv, it was softer for certain groups, the same for certain ones, and harsher for other ones. It wasn't "liberation" for all.
In Western Ukraine Red Army was welcome in 1939, Wehrmacht in 1941 and Red Army in 1944. Any of those dates started also a new period of underground activities.
Xx23607:57, 12 May 2006 (UTC)
"remained" is here radical Soviet point of view. The Polish/Soviet(Ukrainian) border was defined in Soviet-Communist Polish treaty. Why should be defined something existing before.
Xx23608:02, 12 May 2006 (UTC)
Lviv's history sections were moved from Lviv to History of Lviv. When making the new History section for Lviv, I essentially cut out the main sentences from each history section. Please edit it mercilessly as my primary concern was to create the History of Lviv (was there a specific reason why this article did not exist previously?). --Riurik(discuss)23:14, 27 August 2006 (UTC)
I thoroughly support your action. The History section was rich enough to warrant the article on its own. Now, please note, that the History section of this article will be edited from now on independently from the History of Lviv article, especially as new editors come by. Someone should take it upon herslef to monitor that they remain in agreement with each other. I am trying to do that with Kiev/History of Kiev and Ukraine/History of Ukraine pairs. --Irpen23:38, 27 August 2006 (UTC)
Good call, I hope however that the history section for Lviv will not expand beyond two moderate size paragraphs (if that much).--Riurik(discuss)02:38, 28 August 2006 (UTC)
Name
This is a important city for Austrian, Polish and Jewish history too and formed part of the relevant countries territory. To banish the relevant names into "See other names" where they are thrown in among the English, Serbian and Spanish names is very odd and contrary to established Wikipedia policy. Refdoc09:24, 31 August 2006 (UTC)
Re: name changes
I moved name variations under History of Lviv where it seems to be more appropriate. Also the IPA transcription was inserted, but please check for accuracy. I hope this solution is acceptable to everyone, and we can all further develop the (pick one) Leopolis/Lwow/לעמבערג/Lemberg/Lvov/Lviv article.--Riurik(discuss)03:35, 18 September 2006 (UTC)
I fully agree on your remark. Besides the city is in Ukraine where only Ukrainian is the official language. Should Russian become a state language then it can go up as well, but until then it is a time waste. See how Kaliningrad and Vilnius are formatted. --Kuban Cossack13:28, 18 September 2006 (UTC)
Boy, total removal seems pretty extreme to me. We almost always include historically important names in city articles. I would say that Lvov is still more common in English than Lviv, and that in historical contexts Lemberg is very well-known in the English-speaking world as a name of this city. I will point out that the times this has really been fought out (e.g. Gdańsk), this has, to my recollection, never been the conclusion. - Jmabel | Talk01:17, 24 September 2006 (UTC)
You are absolutely right. The city is well known in many historical narratives under different names. The present format uses: i) current most common name version in English, ii) a phonetic transcription, and iii) a link to other names. The city's historical names were all moved under History of Lviv. This was to ensure total inclusion. Prior to this, this article was subject to lots of editing which often focused on name inclusions and exclusion at the cost of further developing the article.--Riurik(discuss)14:57, 24 September 2006 (UTC)
I'm "absolutely right", but you reject my conclusion?
Here is what you are absolutely right: "You are absolutely right that the city is well known in many historical narratives under different names." This is why these historical names are listed on the main article History of Lviv. However, we disagree about which name is more common: in your opinion, Lvov is more common in English, I happen to think that the answer is Lviv. I look forward to a fruitful discussion on this topic. Best regards, --Riurik(discuss)04:12, 27 September 2006 (UTC)
I think it was quite wrong to take the names out of the article on the city. 1) there are established Wikipedia policies on name changes - Gdansk was the one example most rules were established upon 2) People who look for Lemberg or Lwow need to know at the very first moment of ending on thsi page that they are in the right place. 3) the rules within the historical section are simple - the relevant name for the particular period or circumstance is used - Lwow when it is a Polish town, Lemberg for the Austrian period etc. This is really nothing new and should not be discussed over and again on every new article. Refdoc17:58, 27 September 2006 (UTC)
Historical names were not deleted, banished or totally removed. They were placed in the article about the city's history, where they are appropriate. The most common English name is listed on the page with IPA transcription and a link to other names; a search for Lwow and Lemberg redirects here. Please lets not cast moral judgments (e.g. wrong or not). The Wikipedia:Naming conventions (geographic names) will be adhered.--Riurik(discuss)18:56, 27 September 2006 (UTC)
Please read the policiy you quoted. The correct application is the one with the relevant names in the first line or a similar section underneath in the actual article, not a secondary one. Relevant names are those of historical periods or of significant ethnic minorities - Yiddish, German, Polish are the main candidates here, I presume. Refdoc11:42, 28 September 2006 (UTC)
When I search for images, I get pictures of two different cathedrals. Which one is the "famous" one? One looks Uniate and is pretty tall while the other one looks Armenian. Is one Armenian Catholic and the other Armenian Orthodox? What are their names? Thanks.--Eupator14:24, 20 September 2006 (UTC)
Does the tall one by any chance look anything like this , that's the bell tower and bishops palace.
Roman Catholic Church links here?
There's a link here to this article, regarding contentious property issues with the Orthodox Church, but I can't figure out why. Anyone know? -- Kendrick706:22, 29 September 2006 (UTC)
as someone who lived in Lviv for a few years I can explain. It's a rather complex issue and the property issues are only the proverbial tip of the iceberg. After WWII when Soviets occupied Western Ukraine one of their primary goals was to destroy the Ukrainian Church. Not only was it a part of their war against religion, they saw it as an important element of Ukrainian national identity, which protected the locals from getting russified as it was happening in the rest of Ukraine. So instead of simply persecuting the Church, confiscating its property and so on, Soviets transfered it to the Russian Orthodox Church, using it as a tool of russification. After the collapse of communism Russian Orthodox actually had more parishes in Ukraine then in Russia and didn't want to give them back to the rightful owner.
but this is only a small part. The main problem is a conflict of civilizations: Russians consider Ukraine to be their "canonical territory" (in a broad sense) and Ukrainians to be nothing more then Russians "degenerated" by exposure to European civilization. Thus Russians consider the very existance of the Ukrainian Church an affront. --212.76.33.7311:15, 29 September 2006 (UTC)
I do not see why one needs to go in detail about politics, remember that wikipedia is not for debates, but if you insist then at least you can explain why does the Moscow Patriarchy actually condemns the Synod of Lvov, and why did during Soviet times canonical law on Western Parishes was relaxed to allow them to shave beards and conduct liturgy in Ukrainian rather than Church Slavonic? Also about rightful owner, how about the fact that a good share of those churches was built prior to the unia, and in addition I would like to ask you wether the violance that was used to "return" those churches in 1989-1993 was in any way Christian or "civilised" (wrt to your remarks about so called European civilisations)? As for Russians then please do not assume for other people on what they think and think for yourself, wrt to that I do not consider any person degenerate, considering that my wife is from Western Ukraine...Нечего умного сказать, помолчи and there are thousands of forums for Polemics. --Kuban Cossack12:54, 29 September 2006 (UTC)
Applying the same standards to all contributors of Wikipedia
Riurik,
I read your comment below:
"Please stop adding inappropriate external links to Wikipedia, as you did in Lviv. It is considered spamming, and Wikipedia is not a vehicle for advertising. Thanks. --Riurik"
Please explain your recent deletion of my link on the Lviv article while leaving there the link to the "Tourist Information and Travel Guide" which offiers an even wider spectrum of commercial services compared to my website link which you have persistently deleted.
I ask for consistency and applying the same standards to all the users, in line with the general concept of the Internet community.
I would appreciate your comments very much.
Vladyslav
Wikipedia is not Wikitravel, it is not a place for giving links that bear little relevance to the city, but focus on all of the travel details. No offence, but there is a "relevancy" measure that we apply. --Kuban Cossack12:36, 28 October 2006 (UTC)
Cuban Cossack, thanks for your opinion. You are 100% right about this not being a Wikitravel. However, I would still like to hear why some travel links on Wikipedia are left there, and some are deleted the minute they are put there. Like the "Lviv Tourist Information and Travel Guide" link on the Lviv page which is all about commercial travel services? I have nothing agains those people, except why would mine get deleted and a very similar link left? Did you bother to open that link to see what the website is about.
would still like to hear your opion.
THanks
My is not opinion, there is an official wiki policy on which External links are useful and which are not. I mean wrt to relevance of Moscow which link would be more useful: [58] or [59]. In the end people read encyclopedias not as travel guides (at least I do so). Which is why there are no lonely planet links on any of the cities in wiki. I do understand that some of the links of Lvov are irrelevant, I might just get round to cleaning up the mess... ()--Kuban Cossack18:35, 28 October 2006 (UTC)
Vladyslav, I am sorry for what could have appeared as inconsistent application of standards. That was not my intention. At this time, I removed the above mentioned link and a couple of others. In doing so, I relied on guidelines as outlined here. I hope that you will continue editing on wikipedia. Also consider registering, which will allow you to track your contributions. Finally, if you have not visited it so far, you may be interested in Ukraine related portal. --Riurik(discuss)20:13, 28 October 2006 (UTC)
Economy and Architecture sections edits
Benjiwolf, it's nice to see another editor interested in making this article better. Please do not merely insert uncited information, and try to adhere to a neutral point of view when cotributing:
One example is...
Point of View (POV):
Lviv is the dominant city in north-western Ukraine
Neutral Point of View (NPOV):
Lviv is a city in western Ukraine
Looking at the map, Lviv seems to be located not in north-western Ukraine, but in the central-western Ukraine or simply western Ukraine. Lutsk, however, is in northwestern Ukraine. Conversely, Uzhhorod is in south-western Ukraine.
There are many sentences under the Economy and the Architecture that are unsourced. Since you wrote these new sentences, and instead of placing the "fact" tag after each of these, I ask that you provide your references within the text. Glad to be working on this, --Riurik(discuss)18:42, 17 January 2007 (UTC)
i think the word "dominant" that i used was just my poor vocabulary in my haste...i was indeed thinking of a better word...yet just threw that one in...i didnt mean it in the sense that Lviv dominates the area in some sort of negative sense...more in the sense that it is indeed the most important and recognized city in that area of ukraine and i thought it good to give a sense of this in the leading paragraph. there is no city in the region even near in size to my poor knowledge of the area. as to whether Lviv is north western ukraine or just west ukraine...its not so important i suppose, yet when looking at the map one sees that little chunk of ukraine below moldavia that almost could be considered "southwest ukraine"...yet beyond that indeed Lviv is generally west ukraine and the shape of the country is such that it could be said this is so. ill go back with west ukraine.
as to lviv being a post soviet era city...i didnt put that...reinstated it from someone else...and i think people do indeed refer to many of the cities of eastern europe as "post soviet era"...
on the little clip in the sports section...it was sort of trivia...yet there is just nothing about the culture..so i thought to give a sense that some of the young people take an interest in soccer (football) that id put it in...
i acknowledge that some of my input to the economy/architecture section is from first hand observation when i travelled there...yet at least in the economy section its very accurate...and there is just no info on this topic...its the best i could do...i will search for more when i have time...yet really someone from lviv should add to this with some hard facts and statistics...that they can read and understand english to contribute eloquently to wikipedia or even have the time and money to devote to it...is questionable tho...so here you have my travel observations as the best info we have now...its better than nothing...i found a book in english translation covering lviv architecture, yet just when i was there...i have no idea how to get it here in switzerland...it would be good to take something from that book...it was quite good on the subject...i agree my contribution to the article is pathetic in some cases...someone from Lviv needs to take up the cause of this page...Benjiwolf19:24, 17 January 2007 (UTC)
Well, thanks for communicating on this. I completely agree that information about Lviv in English is scarce and any improvement of this article is a big benefit. Anyone can add sources, and really it is the person introducing new material who should cite a reliable source (see below):
Articles should contain only material that has been published by reliable sources.
Editors adding new material should cite a reliable source, or it may be challenged or removed by any editor.
The obligation to provide a reliable source lies with the editors wishing to include the material, not with those seeking to remove it.
The only reason I am so stubborn on this is to guard against future contributions that, unlike yours, may not be "in good faith." And so although, writing based on travel observations is perfectly acceptable in many forums, it does not seem to be appropriate for an encyclopedia since it requires verification. Anyhow, I will leave your new stuff for now since you may dug out references for it and should I stumble across some sources then I'll incorporate them as well. Cheers to the editor from Switzerland, --Riurik(discuss)04:02, 18 January 2007 (UTC)
wikitravel?
not weighing in on the travel links...yet i do think many people look up a place they wish to travel to on wikipedia or may later decide to go there after reading about it on wikipedia...with lviv people using wikipedia in english likely have almost no clue about this city...and to find a book about it??? good luck with that in an english speaking country outside the most massive cities...so some things relevant to someone travelling there are important to include and some pictures so people have some basic sense as to what its like there...when one looks up lviv on the net...its wikipedia that shows first...people may get their first ideas and feelings about a place from wikipedia...when i had decided to travel to lviv to inquire as to the med school...i had a very hard time finding info...wikipedia and lonely planet ukraine were my main two sources...and even in them the info was very sparse on lviv...my few color photos of the area were from wikipedia...yet as to links to travel companies...im not so sure about that...thats for the net in general it seems Benjiwolf19:35, 17 January 2007 (UTC)
I can't tell from the above whether you are aware of it, but there is, indeed, a separate project called Wikitravel, and it allows far more subjective writing than Wikipedia. - Jmabel | Talk18:56, 1 March 2007 (UTC)
on personal observations in foreign countries
i dont know poeple...i can just create a web page with my travel observations that says things like "there are large puddles in the streets that cars must plunge thru during rains" and then cite it and refer to it...these are basic facts of the city some of these...many babushkas do indeed sit on the street corners selling nuts and seeds...thats a fact...and its highly notable when one visits this city...there is clearly a high work ethic as of this and one seeing older women out on the streets selling things...do i just need to put it on another web page to get some basic factual info about lviv into the article?...there is a serious issue over hot water in lviv...many long term residents told me of it...i experienced it myself...it is a fact...ho hum...Benjiwolf17:45, 19 January 2007 (UTC)
External links: spam
I agree with Angryxpeh action. The historical images of Lviv are nice, but the site is commercial in nature and the purpose is clearly to use wikipedia in order to advertise itself. Per wikipedia policies, wp:el and wp:spam and in order to be consistent with past actions, this link has to be removed. Also note, how the anon user pushed its website elsewhere on wikipedia. --Riurik(discuss)04:48, 23 January 2007 (UTC)
Statistics
I deleted the last sentence in the paragraph, stating that only 1% of the population of Lwow is Polish. That information came from Ukranian propoganda and is not true. There was a show in TVP showing like 5000 Polish kids from Lwow visiting Poland. Are you telling me that like 80% of Polish people in Lwow are underaged?
There needs to be a more valid, unbiased citation.
Chatnin
there was a newspaper article i read addressing this issue concerning pavement vrs cobblestones and the controversial paving of areas previously cobblestone just before the anniversery celebration...and as well i heard residents mention that this is an issue...Benjiwolf12:23, 5 February 2007 (UTC)
I know, and I think that you are probably very correct in this, but think how bad that sounds: the encyclopedia says "X" because 1) some article said so AND 2) hearsay. Working within the guidelines of wp:v ensures that some form of information reliability is maintained. --Riurik(discuss)01:22, 6 February 2007 (UTC)
yes u have a point...yet many other country pages have no real reference for much of the info...i just thought it was an interesting thing to add as its an interesting topic places other than lviv in europe may be dealing with also...and i do distinctly remember it in a newspaper article as well...maybe ill search for it...Benjiwolf14:23, 9 February 2007 (UTC)
to the anonymous airport editor
well it seems u are displeased with the airport service...if u can find a news article concerning the airport then u could add info about the airport...yet even then the way u phrased it just wasnt fit for encylopedia material...yet as far as a complaint form goes...i must admit i had a laugh on ur last line that no airplane crew has ever stepped out of the plane...yet come on...thats speculation and not quite encyclopedia material...ive never been to the lviv airport...im sure its not yet up to the standards in more well off areas of the world...yet it seemed u exaggerated things a touch as u had an especially bad day there...anyways i could, yes, say to the western traveller...dont expect everything like it is in the west unless u at least pay something...yet itll generally be still far less than what it costs in the west for the same thing...and if u dont like waiting in the lviv airport...head to a restaurant next door to cool off for a few, or grab a beer and come back...Benjiwolf14:23, 9 February 2007 (UTC)
Lviv.ogg
In my opinion the voice in file says "L'vil" instead of "L'viv". I'm a native speaker of Ukrainian, so I'm sure what I'm talking about.
How I can to change this audio file to another? What are the rules? --Yarko16:59, 30 April 2007 (UTC)
You're right. The recording is flawed. I looked up the info on changing the file from wiki help page. Here it is. I think as long as you make the new .ogg file you can replace it without any further deliberation. --Riurik(discuss)20:26, 26 May 2007 (UTC)
What happened to the Poles?
As I understand it, Lviv / Lvov was a majortity-Polish city for hundreds of years until shortly after WW2 the Soviets ethnically cleansed the area and deported most Poles to former German areas. The article should probably mention this somewhere, it's a matter of considerable historical importance.
In the years 1945-1946 most Poles were forced to leave Lwow and moved to Wroclaw. I also think this fact should be included in the article, nobody can erase hundreds of years of Lwow's history Tymek20:43, 18 June 2007 (UTC)
nobody can erase hundreds of years of Lwow's history - very true; nobody is trying to do this nor is it very likely to do on wikipedia due to the multi-vectoral scrutiny. Keep in mind the scope of the entry. The material you mention is very likely already addressed under History of Lviv.--Riurik(discuss)23:14, 18 June 2007 (UTC)
There has been a back and forth between two wordings:
"The Jewish population declined during the calamities of the 20th century."
"The Jews were murdered by Nazis and Ukrainians collaborating with them during World War II."
The former had been in the article for some time. The latter recently replaced it. I reverted once, but I'm not going to get into an edit war. I'm simply going to state my case here and let others sort it out. (And by the way, in case anyone thinks I'm some kind of Holocaust denier: not at all. I'm a Jew whose family lost its entire European branch in the Holocaust.)
The Holocaust itself was not the only cause of decline of the Jewish population in Ukraine, though it was probably the largest. There was also the exodus after the Kishinev pogrom (and a steady trickle before that and after until the Russian Revolution) and there were Holocaust survivors (and their descendants) who made aliyah to Israel. Some Jews doubtless retreated with the Red Army and did not end up back in Lviv.
"Murder" is a tricky word here, because it is a legal term. I'd certainly use it in more casual writing, but in an encyclopedia I think it is very problematic. Even if we are going to say effectively this, "killed" is a much less problematic word.
Not all of the people in the Nazi German killing machine were, themselves, individually, Nazis. Some of these Germans were simply collaborators. "Nazis" may be acceptable shorthand here, but it is shorthand.
"The Jews… were murdered…": while most of the city's Jews were, indeed, killed in the Holocaust, quite a few survived. The wording here suggests that none did.
Besides these specifics: all of these matters are well discussed elsewhere. This is a small section about a the demography of a city. I'm not necessarily saying that the previous wording is how we should handle this—it is a bit too tame—but, as I've just described, I think the latter wording is very problematic. Perhaps we need to provide some links here to the various relevant articles? If we are going to try to handle this in this article we need to remember to take an encyclopedic approach, not to write something pithy but oversimplified. - Jmabel | Talk18:31, 29 December 2007 (UTC)
I just came across this talk entry. Thanks for the perspective on the issue. I can see how that was too tame, or as another user put it, politically-correct, and I am willing to work towards a better alternative.--Riurik(discuss)20:04, 29 December 2007 (UTC)
Population
This edit gives a higher population and calls it an "estimate" but gives no citation. I'm not at all expert on the topic and I haven't been tracking the article history, but this looks dubious to me. - Jmabel | Talk00:10, 29 January 2008 (UTC)
It too looks dubious to me; I checked the statistics from the Featured Russian Wikipedia article about Lviv, and it gave 910,000.. Unfortunatly, I have found no citations for this "estimate" nor any recent city population statistics of the city. —dima/talk/00:34, 29 January 2008 (UTC)
Would there be any objections to citing the official census figures of 733,000? I've also asked the Russians where they got their numbers, someone will come up with a reference sooner or later. Regards, Bogdanщо?01:18, 29 January 2008 (UTC)
It's probably due to differences of what constitutes "Lviv". Unless we get the 910 ref, it's better to go with the official # of 733.--Riurik(discuss)06:15, 29 January 2008 (UTC)
I have just edited (as a native speaker) the previously evident non-native English (note this is now in British English, because this is what I write most naturally and therefore best, not because of any intentional rejection of US English). I have also deleted what seemed to me an excessive number of Wikilinks for dates and made a couple of minor insertions and deletions. I'm not happy about the use of "Lviv" for periods or dates when it was known as Lemberg or Lwów, but this is another issue, which I see has arisen before, and I am not able to proceed any further with this today (or for several more days).CWO (talk) 21:46, 3 April 2008 (UTC)
The introduction to the article reads a little oddly, in my opinion, because the final paragraph covers the same ground as the previous one, but in more detail. I'm not sure what should be done about this. 81.111.49.110 (talk) 12:49, 16 December 2008 (UTC)
Some Comments
The first railway in modern Ukraina (Borderland) was built by the Austrians. It was named k.k.priv.Galizische Carl Ludwig-Bahn usually lettered in international railway history as CLB.
The line Przemysl - Lemberg was opened on 15.11.1861. The capital of Austrian Galizia was Lemberg until Austria asked for terms according to Woodrow Wilson´s 14 pacts in October 1918.
The Imperial Russian army captured Lemberg in August 1914 (all church bell ringing in Holy Russian Land) and it was occupied by the Russians until the combined German and Austrian attack
which started in May near Gorlice drowe the Russians away. During the Russian occupation they started to call Austrian Galizia "Red Russia".
No word of Ukrainean nationalist Petlura who made Lemberg as his headquarter until being ousted by the Poles in April 1919. From that point Lemberg become Polish Lwow and remained so until the Germans and Russians captured Lwow on September 23, 1939. General Januszszzeitic (Commander of the Lwow) held talk to his officers and let them freely decide if they continue the battle and try to breakthrough the German and Soviet lines to reach Kolomyja, or take their civilian clothes, or surrender weither to the German Army or Red Army units. The defending Polish Army units surrendered to the Germans and Soviets. About 80 per cent choose German captivity, about 10 per cent managed in civilian clothes reach Roumanian border. The last 10 per cent surrendered to the Soviets. They were transported to Katyn where they were shot by NKVD in April 1940. In Eastern Poland ie. area east of new demarcation line, as agreed in Moscow on 28.09.1939, between Ribbentrop and Molotov the line followed Narew, Veiksel and San Rivers.
Now Soviet Union demanded Germans to withdraw their troops immediately which had crossed this new Demarcation Line. At this moment German Army had occupied old German settlement Winniki east of Lwow at Weinberg. The Soviets renamed Lwow to Lvov in cyrillic. This situation lasted until the Germans captured Lvov in July 1941. Lvov become Lemberg again and remained so until 22.07.1944. Then renamed again to Russian Lvov. However, the Soviets deported in 1945 nearly all of Lwow´s Polish population to Breslau in Silesia. Only few managed for marriage reasons to stay in Soviet Lvov. The town has similar historical importance to the Poles as Wilno and to Finns Viipuri in their national history. Despite the area was ceded to Soviets, the place names were not, and Lvov / Lviv is still offically in Polish language Lwow. The Austrians and Germans still (in 2008) use Lemberg for the town as the Finns and Estonians still use Viipuri for Soviet / Russian Vyborg. Such are the facts, and nobody cannot change the course of history despite desperate attempts to create new one, especially by some Russians and American Jews. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.114.194.42 (talk) 17:07, 21 November 2008 (UTC)
Lemberg / Lwow / Lvov / Lviv Tramway History
Horse tramway built by Societa Trestina Tramway was built in 1879 - 1880. It was built to 1000 mm (metre) gauge. First horse tram operated on 05.05.1880. The company was municipaliced in 1906 and electrified in 1908.
The 1000 mm gauge Lemberger Strassenbahn, built and operated at first by German Siemens & Halske was opened on 31.05.1894. This company was municipalised in 1896. At first left-hand traffic was introduced. The change to right hand traffic was made during Polish adminstration on 01.10.1922. The first tram depot was opened in 1908 and the second one in 1929.
The German map dated 04.02.1944 shows the Lemberg tramway lines at that time. All the streets had German names such as Wienerstrasse, Bahnhofstrasse, Weststrasse to Kleparow, Kasimirstrasse, Krakauerstrasse, Solkiewerstrasse to Podzamcze. Oststrasse to Lyczakow,Sophienstrasse and Paninskastrasse to Persenkowka, Fürstenstrasse, Kopernikusstrasse,
Wehrmachtstrasse, Fichtenstrasse, Herbetstrasse, and Saufenstrasse used by the Lemberger trams. In 2002 the total route lenght was 67 km. Eight tramway lines were in operation. Numberered 1 to 7 and 9 with total 185 tramway cars. All tramway cars were built by CKD (Tatra T-4 and Tatra KT-4) located at Praha, Tatra - Smichov Works in 1973 - 1976 and 1981 - 1988. All this information is available in several sources of which the work of Aare Olander, Tallinn, Estonia is the best one for all ex Soviet Union Tramway systems for detailed study. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.114.194.42 (talk) 19:56, 21 November 2008 (UTC)
Temperature conversion
"20°C (65 °F) in June": I have no idea which is accurate, but the Celsius & Fahrenheit don't quite match. 20°C is 68 °F. - Jmabel | Talk04:59, 29 November 2008 (UTC)
12:06, 27 April 2006 (UTC)
