Talk:Locations in His Dark Materials

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Is the world of the Mulefa and the Republic of Heaven not the same world? Or was the world of the Mulefa simply the battlefield for the war between the two forces? I always assumed it was Aseriel's Republic because it was from that world they witness the Clouded Mountain dispatching it's troops. Cillian flood (talk) 16:24, 5 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

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Eternal Purgatory or not?

@Pincrete

Ta for dealing with the typo.

I know that purgatory is transitory in Catholicism, but I am a bit lost for a parallel for the Land of the Dead. This was an eternal purgatory for almost hell-like dimensions without actually being hell - the Authority gives neither hell nor heaven to the dead. Pullman draws from Classical mythological underworld - Charon and his boat is taken wholesale - but it certainly not Elysian Fields, but neither is it like Tartarus. It is the land of crushing bleurgh. Any ideas for an alternative that can be linked to ascribe as a parallel?

ASC Camsteerie (talk) 10:54, 15 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I know that colloquially, purgatory is a synonym for hell, but I just thought that anyone familiar with theology (or Dante), or anyone who followed the link, might get the wrong idea.

It has been a long time since I actually properly read HDM, and haven't seen the second part of the TV series, but why don't we simply describe the awful, interminable misery of the Land of the Dead. "a crowded, hellish underworld where all those who have ever lived wait in a state of endless despair" ???? Describing the worlds is what we do in other cases in HDM and if the text doesn't hit on a precise, linkable, analagous noun, does it matter?

I agree that ithe Land of the Dead owes a lot to classical mythology. I've also always thought that it was humanist Pullman's private 'dig' at some religion's promise of eternal life. For him I think mortality is a blessing which concentrates the mind on the living, breathing, 'here and now'. That's WP:OR of course, but we are allowed to have opinions on talk!

I wondered if there was anything quotable from the book to describe the Land of the Dead, but a brief look last night yielded nothing. Pincrete (talk) 03:56, 16 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Pincrete

Your right on the money with your 1st point.

I agree that Pullman is making a big 'dig' at religions. It has been stated - cannot recall where off-hand - that the trilogy is a reversed reworking of Milton's "Paradise Lost". It is not a coincidence that Asriel is a respelling of Azrael.

The issue of mortality and a short lifespan to concentrate on living well in the here and now is explicitly stated in that Lyra and Will are told by Xaphania that Asriel's republic of heaven would inevitably fail because no daemon or soul can survive long and well outside its own world (as with Jopari) so it is responsible on all to build a heaven in their own world. So not opinion, put it in.

The best the book comes up with is Balthamos saying the Underworld was made as a "prison camp populated with harpies", meaning a internment or concentration prison camp or gulag. I think "a crowded, hellish underworld where all those who have ever lived wait in a state of endless despair." works pretty well, but I would add "the ghosts of all..." and "concentration prison camp" with the Balthamos ref. Could add the harpies bit too.

OK?

ASC Camsteerie (talk) 08:34, 17 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Your memory is fresher than mine, but each of these suggestions work well, but we probably don't need to "over-egg the pudding" by choosing all of them. I'll leave it to your judgement though. It's good to have a fresh mind on this article. I did a huge amount of 'clean up' across the whole HDM territory about 10 or more years ago (it was very fan-crufty), but then got a bit jaded, so fresh interest and insight is very welcome. Pincrete (talk) 16:55, 17 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]