Talk:List of tallest structures in Tokyo

Questions

1) What is the reasoning for the current division between "buildings and towers" and "structures"? For example, why is Tokyo Tower a "structure" but not a "tower" or "building"?

2) Some buildings not strictly speaking in Tokyo-to are listed. This is problematic because ill-defined list criteria is a valid reason for deletion. Additionally, there is quite a variety of material here, including buildings proposed to be constructed, buildings under construction, and timeline of buildings which used to be the tallest. This is starting to make the list criteria even more vague.

3) There needs to be a lede for the entire list which will summarize the well-defined criteria for inclusion and summarizes the content. See Wikipedia:List_guideline#List content. This will solve some of the issues in 2).

--C S (talk) 10:16, 24 September 2008 (UTC)

1) The reasoning behind the division is mainly because of Tokyo Tower. The buildings list is sorted by roof/spire/architectural height. Tokyo Tower is always measured by antenna height. If included in the building list, other buildings would have to be re-listed by antenna height (or pinnacle height) as well, which is generally not considered when listing tallest buildings. It is somewhat of a dilemma. I've been thinking of simply merging the lists, however, and noting Tokyo Tower as an exception to the list's criteria. Thoughts on that? As it stands now, the lists are divided up by buildings (who's height comes primarily from inhabitable floor space) and structures (who's height come primarily from inhabitable floor space).

2) "Some buildings not strictly speaking in Tokyo-to are listed." I'm not exactly sure what you mean by this. Can you clarify? As for where I got the the criteria, subdivisions and sections, I've generally been pulling from the other "Tallest in city" Featured lists here.

3) A lead will definitely come. I am no where near finished with this list. Most notably on my to-do list is the lead as well as finishing the proposed and under-construction list. --Torsodog^Talk 13:23, 24 September 2008 (UTC)

1) Ugh. I'll think about it.

2) The section "Tall buildings in the Greater Tokyo Area" is included, but the list is supposedly about Tokyo only. I think adding tall buildings in other related areas is not a good idea. None of the other featured list examples do this (AFAIK), and I expect for good reason. But the general outline seems ok and an accepted format. I was just worried people would try deleting it.

3) I look forward to it! --C S (talk) 13:45, 24 September 2008 (UTC)

Ah, yes, the Greater Tokyo Area section. That section is there basically as a remnant of the list before I cleaned it up. I was originally thinking about possibly expanding the list to "List of tallest buildings and structures in the Greater Tokyo Area" (something like List of tallest buildings and structures in the Paris region), so I left it for the time being. I have decided that that list, however, would be too unwieldy and decided against that change. I will delete it now. --Torsodog^Talk 13:54, 24 September 2008 (UTC)

Regarding 1), I think what confused me is that the description for the first list says it lists "skyscrapers and towers" and when you look at the names, some have "tower" in them. But looking through the buildings, I think they are all skyscrapers. Perhaps it would be less confusing if the division was between "structures" and "skyscrapers". The first clearly includes things like Tokyo Tower while the second would indicate habitable buildings. Or in the description just call all the items in the first one "buildings", which the section heading already says, and emphasize it is for habitable buildings.

As for combining idea, I think combining the lists and using different criteria in the same list would be unaesthetic. So I don't particularly like that solution. --C S (talk) 14:34, 24 September 2008 (UTC)

Good points and ideas. When I get the time, I will edit the descriptions to make it very clear that the first list only includes habitable buildings, while the second list only includes tall structures that are inhabitable. Thanks for the input! --Torsodog^Talk 15:28, 24 September 2008 (UTC)

Unreliable Japanese site

Here is a website with some great information on the tallest buildings in Tokyo. It can't be used as a source, but it is a great starting point: http://www.eonet.ne.jp/~building-pc/tokyo/to.htm --Torsodog^Talk 16:01, 28 October 2009 (UTC)

Merger proposal

Proposing merging List of tallest buildings in Shinjuku, Tokyo into this article. There is little to no information in that article that isn't already presented in this article. --Torsodog^Talk 00:33, 30 June 2015 (UTC)

I am going to merge and redirect. --Torsodog^Talk 01:39, 2 September 2015 (UTC)

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"Tallest tokyo" listed at Redirects for discussion

A discussion is taking place to address the redirect Tallest tokyo. The discussion will occur at Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2020 September 25#Tallest tokyo until a consensus is reached, and readers of this page are welcome to contribute to the discussion. Regards, SONIC678 16:29, 25 September 2020 (UTC)

Tallest Buildings + Other Skyscrapers

Hey, fellow Japan construction enthusiasts!

I’ve been wanting to discuss potential changes to this article, so I’m listing a few ideas below. This talk page seems to be quite inactive, but if you come across these posts, feel free to share your thoughts!

Some time ago, I created the "Other skyscrapers" list (initially titled "Other tall buildings"). The "Tallest buildings" list—which is defined as a Top 50—was a bit messy and exceeded 50 buildings at the time, so I removed the extras and added them to this new list, eventually expanding it to include all skyscrapers in Tokyo (150m or taller). At first, I thought about expanding the "Tallest buildings" list, but I didn't want to disregard the criteria defined for it (being a Top 50), so I ended up creating the new list. While some might prefer a concise "Top 50" list, I favor a more comprehensive article. Should we merge the two lists or keep them separate? Or should we delete the "Other skyscrapers" list altogether? Naming suggestions are also appreciated.

Additionally, once Tokyo surpasses 50 skyscrapers over 200m, we could change the "Tallest buildings" list to feature all 200m+ buildings (it would stop being just a Top 50), and the "Other skyscrapers" list would feature all buildings between 150m and 199m. This suggestion would only be implemented some 4 or 5 years from now, however. 8Tokyo8 (talk) 02:03, 18 September 2024 (UTC)

Tallest Structures

I propose deleting the "Tallest structures" section since all these entries are already included in the "Tallest buildings" one. We could rename the "Tallest buildings" section to "Tallest buildings and structures" and clarify in the description that "structures" refers to non-habitable or partially habitable ones (communication/observation towers, buildings with tall antenna masts/lattice towers on top, smokestacks, etc.). The structure type could be mentioned in the notes column. We can transfer relevant data (photos, coordinates, notes) from the former section, keeping these structures unranked in the "Rank" column, and use a distinct background color to visually differentiate them from skyscrapers (for reference, take a look at the Japanese version of this article).

Other "Tallest buildings/structures" articles like those for Paris, Toronto, and Guangzhou list their landmark towers in the main table, including images and details, so it feels odd that readers of this article are greeted by a bunch of em dashes on the entries for Tokyo Skytree and Tokyo Tower, and have to scroll to the bottom to find the more complete version of these entries. The Japanese article already integrates these structures with images, notes, and distinct background colors alongside skyscrapers, which I think enhances clarity and usability. Since there aren't a ton of partially or non-habitable structures, combining the lists seems logical. 8Tokyo8 (talk) 02:06, 18 September 2024 (UTC)

I think you've done WAY too much with this whole list. This was a Featured List of the tallest structures in Tokyo, not a list of ALL highrises in Tokyo. There's no need for this to be 200+ entries long and continually growing basically monthly. It's unstainable at this point. I'd honestly think I'd put this up for delisting as a Featured List in this state. The list should only be 50-100 of the tallest structures in Tokyo. Any more than that is completely unwieldy and unnecessary. --Torsodog^Talk 18:54, 14 October 2024 (UTC)

Thank you for your reply!

It's not really a list of all high-rises in Tokyo, but I get your point. I’ve seen similar "List of tallest buildings/structures in" articles using 150m as the cut-off height (Bangkok, Kuala Lumpur, etc.), and often exceeding 100 entries. The CTBUH also uses 150m as cut-off (CTBUHand this article). However, I understand why this should be shorter. It'll be unsustainable indeed.

Regarding Featured List status, I’m not fully aware of the guidelines, so I apologize if there are any oversights. I’ve just noticed that neither the Bangkok nor Kuala Lumpur lists are featured, so I’ll avoid using such articles as reference going forward.

If you have time, I’d appreciate your thoughts on the following:

• Lead section: We could add a "History" section (as seen here or here - both are featured lists). Some corrections are needed, like the "17 of Japan’s 25 tallest buildings and structures are in Tokyo" statement, which only applies to freestanding structures. I'll post a draft of what I have in mind in a separate comment below.
• Tallest buildings: It will stay as a top 50 for now, expanding to include all 200m+ buildings when Tokyo surpasses 50 of them, up to a maximum of 100 entries (would be within the range of 50-100 you mentioned).
• Other skyscrapers: This section will be deleted.
• Demolished buildings: We could add columns for images and coordinates. References will be added to the notes column and some text could be shortened. Future changes: The cut-off height may be changed to 125m or 150m if the list grows too long.
• Under construction: Coordinates could be added (it's not really necessary, but would give readers the option to quickly view a construction site on a map). Projects that wouldn't make it into the top 50 should be removed (in this case, everything below 199m).
• Proposed: Same as above.
• Vision or canceled: We could create this section with a 200m cut-off (or higher).
• Timeline of tallest buildings: We could add images and/or coordinates.
• Tallest structures: I still think this section is unnecessary since all 6 entries are already listed in the "Tallest buildings" section for comparison. Does this extra list really add value? If we keep this one, we should at least update the text and set 195m as the cut-off point, since no structure is exactly 187m tall.
• Demolished/destroyed structures: This section could be merged with "Demolished buildings" using a different background color, as I've proposed before. However, if "Tallest structures" is kept, then this section should be too.

8Tokyo8 (talk) 01:38, 15 October 2024 (UTC)

Lead draft (any suggestions are greatly appreciated; text could be shortened):

Tokyo is the most populated of Japan's 47 prefectures. Its mainland is divided into two sections: Western Tokyo and the special wards of Tokyo. The prefecture's tallest structures are within the 23 special wards, which comprise the area formerly incorporated as Tokyo City. Most of these structures are buildings, but there are other types of structures ranking among the tallest in the prefecture, such as lattice towers and smokestacks. As of October 2024, there are over 200 structures in Tokyo that stand at least 150 metres tall (492 feet), of which 46 are 200 metres (656 feet) or taller, including those that are still under construction but have been topped out.

The tallest structure in the prefecture is Tokyo Skytree, a megatall lattice tower that rises 634 metres (2,080 feet), which was completed in 2012. It also stands as the tallest structure in Japan, the tallest tower in the world, and the third-tallest freestanding structure in the world. The second-tallest structure in Tokyo is the 333-metre-tall (1,092 feet) Tokyo Tower, a lattice tower completed in 1958. The tallest building and third-tallest overall structure is the 325-metre-tall (1,068 feet) Azabudai Hills Mori JP Tower, completed in 2023 and being Tokyo's only supertall skyscraper. It is also the tallest building in Japan and the world's largest skyscraper by floor area. The NTT Docomo Yoyogi Building, completed in 2000, is the second-tallest building and fourth-tallest structure in Tokyo when measured by pinnacle height, at 272 metres (892 feet); however, its architectural height is 240 metres (787 feet). The second-tallest building by architectural height and fifth-tallest overall structure is the 266-metre-tall (872 feet) Toranomon Hills Station Tower, which was completed in 2023.

As of October 2024, 29 skyscrapers are under construction in the prefecture (150 m or taller), with 10 planned to rise higher than 200 metres, including a supertall skyscraper—the 385-metre-tall (1,263 feet) Torch Tower—which is set to become the new tallest building in Tokyo and Japan upon completion in 2028. Currently, 9 of Japan's 25 tallest structures, 17 of Japan's 25 tallest freestanding structures, and 18 of Japan's 25 tallest buildings are in Tokyo.

HISTORY

Skyscrapers are a relatively recent phenomenon in Japan. Pre-WWII, the tallest buildings in Tokyo were the 69-metre-tall (225 feet) Ryounkaku—severely damaged in the Great Kanto earthquake of 1923 and subsequently demolished—and the 65-metre-tall (215 feet) National Diet Building. Due to aesthetic and engineering concerns, Japan's Building Standard Law set an absolute height limit of 31 metres until 1963, when the limit was abolished in favor of a floor area ratio limit. Following these changes in building regulations, the Hotel New Otani Tokyo (72 m; 237 ft) and the Kasumigaseki Building—regarded as Japan's first modern skyscraper, rising 36 stories and 156 metres (512 feet) in height—were constructed and completed in 1964 and 1968, respectively, marking the beginning of Tokyo's verticalization.

A booming post-war Japanese economy and the hosting of the 1964 Summer Olympics helped lead to a building boom in Tokyo during the 1960s and 1970s. Tokyo pioneered the skyscraper construction boom in Asia, with several of its skyscrapers taking the title of tallest building in Asia during these decades. Construction continued through the 1980s and 1990s as the Japanese asset price bubble rose and fell. Nishi-Shinjuku, a district within Shinjuku, was the prefecture's first major skyscraper development area. Starting with the construction of the Keio Plaza Hotel in 1971, the district is now home to 11 of Tokyo's 50 tallest skyscrapers. Other major skyscraper districts have since been developed, such as the ones around Tokyo Station, Shiodome, Toranomon, Shibuya Station, among others.

Tokyo has been the site of many skyscraper construction projects in recent years. Over the past decade, 59 buildings standing at least 150 metres in height have been completed. A total of 15 buildings rising higher than 200 metres have been completed in Tokyo since 2014, of which 5 were completed in 2023. Several other construction projects planned to exceed the height of 200 metres are proposed for the near future, as Tokyo is experiencing a massive "once-in-a-century" redevelopment. 8Tokyo8 (talk) 02:02, 15 October 2024 (UTC)

Demolished or Destroyed Structures

Similarly, we could merge the "Demolished or destroyed structures" list with the "Demolished buildings" section and title it "Demolished buildings and structures". Using background colors to distinguish buildings from structures would maintain clarity. Photos would be added too. There appears to be only one destroyed structure (the 1st Iwo Jima LORAN-C transmission mast), so a lengthier title like "Demolished or destroyed buildings and structures" might not be necessary. As far as I know, no other 100m+ building or structure was destroyed. The notes column can be used to mention the collapsing of the transmission mast. 8Tokyo8 (talk) 02:08, 18 September 2024 (UTC)

Visionary and Canceled Projects

I'd like to suggest creating a section for visionary and canceled projects, titled "Vision or canceled". While there’s already an article covering visionary tall buildings, this list would obviously focus solely on Tokyo. For instance, the W350 project, which I added to "Proposed", would fit better here. I've seen other Wikipedia articles featuring such lists and thought it could be interesting. 8Tokyo8 (talk) 02:11, 18 September 2024 (UTC)

Photos

Several buildings are still missing photos. If anyone has images of recently completed or topped-out buildings, feel free to upload them. I’d do it myself if I could, but I’m not in Japan. Photos of older buildings that improve on existing ones (better angle, resolution, lighting, etc.) would also be great, though priority should go to those without images.

I hope my suggestions were expressed clearly, and I'd like to discuss them with other readers/editors :) 8Tokyo8 (talk) 02:16, 18 September 2024 (UTC)

Since no one replied yet, I am going to implement these changes. If anyone comes across this talk page and wants to contribute, leave a comment here and we'll discuss it. 8Tokyo8 (talk) 18:10, 14 October 2024 (UTC)

Under construction information gone?

I believe 8Tokyo8 cut short the list of under construction buildings here recently by moving the lower height limit to 193 meters. Why did they choose such an arbitrary unit? The previous list (which had the cutoff at 150 m, the main standard for skyscrapers) was the best quick source for collating the number of skyscrapers under construction in Tokyo (from where I derived the count of 29 in List of cities with the most skyscrapers), since the CTBUH is poor at keeping track of skyscrapers under construction in Tokyo. I would prefer if the original list at least is reintroduced. LivinAWestLife (talk) 09:44, 25 November 2024 (UTC)

Hi!

The old cut-off height was 187 meters, likely based on the height of the 50th-tallest entry at one point, though it was outdated by the time I first edited this article. I eventually expanded it to include all skyscrapers 150 meters or taller—as you said, the main standard for skyscrapers. However, Torsodog suggested limiting the list to 50–100 entries to prevent it from becoming unwieldy.

Thus, I removed the "Other skyscrapers" list and set the new cut-off height at 193 meters, matching the height of the lowest-ranked building on the main list (Tallest buildings). This approach aligns with the stated criterion of featuring the 50 tallest skyscrapers, ensuring consistency as the cut-off height rises with new additions. By the way, I believe 200 meters will be a good "final" cut-off height, once Tokyo exceeds 50 skyscrapers of that height or taller.

In an attempt to clarify the usage of such a "weird" height of 193 meters, I've added the following paragraph to the "Tallest under construction, proposed, and canceled" section: "The cut-off height used for all lists corresponds to the height of the last entry on the Tallest buildings list above. Visionary projects are excluded but can be found in the List of tallest structures envisioned for Tokyo." The only exceptions are the tables that list demolished buildings/structures, otherwise the "Demolished buildings" list would have to be deleted (I think their cut-off of 100 meters may eventually be raised, however).

I figured it wouldn't make much sense to keep that section's cut-off height at 150 meters, because those buildings won't be making it into the main list. I know this information is important for the article you mentioned, so I kept the info regarding number of skyscrapers under construction right above the table. The problem is that the cited source (SkyscraperPage.com) is also a bit outdated.

We could bring all those skyscrapers back, but do we (re)expand the rest of the article too? Or do we make an exception for this list and explain that including all 150m+ buildings is important because of the "List of cities with the most skyscrapers"? Another option could be requesting an update on SkyscraperPage, but I would have to look further into that, as I don't have an account on their platform.

Sorry for the lengthy reply, but I hope this explains the reasoning behind these recent edits. 8Tokyo8 (talk) 15:55, 25 November 2024 (UTC)

Thanks for the reply. I guess it makes sense, although I have seen pages for other cities use different height thresholds for what buildings are included in the main list and which are in the under construction list. I know you've put a lot of work into the article haha, I don't think it's too hard to request a new building on SkyscraperPage although I do wish their coverage is better. Since Emporis was gone there hasn't been a source as comprehensive, and CTBUH/SkyscraperPage each have their own failings. LivinAWestLife (talk) 20:03, 29 November 2024 (UTC)

Yeah, those sources are nice but a bit incomplete/outdated indeed. SkyscraperPage is only missing 2 of the 28 skyscrapers currently under construction from their database, which is pretty good. They still have 4 of them listed as proposed, and a couple of buildings that have already been completed are still listed as U/C though. I created an account a few days ago, so I'll request these updates soon (still trying to figure out their ancient-looking forum lol). 8Tokyo8 (talk) 21:28, 29 November 2024 (UTC)