Talk:United States atrocity crimes

This article was nominated for deletion on 26 November 2024. The result of the discussion was keep.

This article has previously been nominated to be moved. Please review the prior discussions if you are considering re-nomination.

Logs and discussions:

Move logs: List of genocides committed by the United States

Discussions:

Moved to United States atrocity crimes, 11 December 2024, from List of genocides committed by the United States to Atrocity crimes committed by the United States, see discussion.

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Article was created by a now blocked sockpuppet

w:en:Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/KlayCax Doug Weller talk 09:36, 19 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Article should be deleted

This article is created by an sockpuppet. It should be deleted NotSoTough (talk) 10:08, 26 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

If you think so, then start up a discussion at AfD. While you're at it, start a discussion for List of genocides committed by the Soviet Union. ZionniThePeruser (talk) 10:45, 26 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Okay, thank you buddy. NotSoTough (talk) 10:46, 26 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Look! I already created the first one! https://en.m.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia%3AArticles_for_deletion%2FList_of_genocides_committed_by_the_United_States&redlink=1# NotSoTough (talk) 10:55, 26 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

So... what now?

Nearly everyone who participated in the AfD agreed that this article was pretty rough, although there wasn't much in-depth discussion on what changes would be best. Hence, this thread exists. Consider it an informal RfC of sorts.

There are three main questions brought up throughout the AfD that should be answered.

Should this article be rescoped / retitled? If so, to what?
How should this article be formatted? As it is, as a standard list, as List of genocides (suggested by User:Bejakyo)?
What should the inclusion criteria be? Should articles like black genocide, trans genocide, Indonesian mass killings of 1965–66, et cetera, be included?

My answers to those questions are yes (to Atrocity crimes committed by the United States as per User:Spookyaki), as it is, and perhaps (with clarification that recognition of their genocidey-ness is disputed).

I've pinged most of the folks who've participated in the AfD in order to cast as wide of a net of opinions as possible.

@ApolloPhoebus:@Shazback:@Esolo5002:@FireCat93:@Dream Focus:@Athel cb:@Mason7512:@Bhjbggoonnv:@Cowboygilbert:@PARAKANYAA:@Zxcvbnm:@AyubuZimbale:@Bluethricecreamman:@Spookyaki:@Bejakyo:@Cdjp1: ZionniThePeruser (talk) 00:01, 11 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

IMO, the best solution would be to rescope it as Genocide committed by the United States, discussing the general phenomenon and listing specific instances with the scholarly debate as to whether they constitute genocide. or something. PARAKANYAA (talk) 00:04, 11 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Basically what @PARAKANYAA said and making it formatted and structured like Native American genocide in the United States where its actual prose and not just a stale list without sources for the claims. Cowboygilbert - (talk) ♥ 00:05, 11 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I would support:

Atrocity crimes committed by the United States — Technically expanding scope. Could be table, as suggested by User:Bejakyo, or prose, as suggested above.

I may support:

Genocide committed by the United States in prose form, perhaps per Native American genocide in the United States. My one potential concern is that basically all of the instances where it's clear that the United States committed genocide are already covered by Native American genocide in the United States. The only addition would be, possibly, Black genocide in the United States and trans genocide.

In other words, I think for this article to be useful, the scope needs to be expanded to include other crimes. Complicity in genocide at the very least seems essential (in which case one possible title could be Genocide in the United States).

One other comment: I think it's debatable whether the instances of Native American genocide could be considered "domestic". Many Native American peoples consider(ed) themselves to be part of sovereign nations, and it's fairly well-documented that, at the very least, "Indian country" as a whole was considered to be foreign to the United States before it underwent assimilation (see After the Frontier: Separation and Absorption in US Indian Policy by Patrick Wolfe). Spookyaki (talk) 00:29, 11 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Actually, thinking about this further, there are a few other examples that could be used that aren't Native American genocide. For example, the proposed Filipino genocide. Guam could be mentioned perhaps. Accusations of genocide in Vietnam, which are mentioned here, could be elaborated upon. Some Kānaka Maoli also consider the colonization of Hawai'i to be genocide. So maybe my original concern isn't relevant. Spookyaki (talk) 03:24, 11 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

IMO the best alternative to outright deletion is redirecting it to Native American genocide in the United States as it is essentially an overlap. The others on the list are dubious whether they fall under the title as it currently is. ᴢxᴄᴠʙɴᴍ (ᴛ) 05:15, 11 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Here are my 2 cents:

This page is not only about the genocide of Native Americans in the United States so a redirect does not make sense as the content (and potential extensions) go beyond the Native American issue. Keep a list of cases within Native Americans item is useful for many readers, I don't see why we need to remove it.
I also do not like the term ‘domestic’, as it does not represent the broader scope from a human rights perspective as ‘genocide’ resulting from settler colonialism/expansionism.
If we consider ‘Atrocity crimes committed by the United States’ as a new title, we will certainly have to expand the content as it is ‘in theory’ broader than the concept of genocide.
If we keep the genocide framework I would then consider be clear about criteria: Genocide Convention (Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide, CPPCG) this is relevant as the Article 3 of CPPCG could mean extend the list of cases. In the case of cultural genocide without other elements is a subject of debate within CPPCG as some authors may argue that cultural genocide is not ethnocide. Although cultural genocide is certainly an important element that complements others elements of decision.
Other possible criteria is the Rome Statute which extends the target cases to: (I) Genocide, (II) Crimes against humanity, (III) War crimes, and (IV) Crime of aggression, which means that the current list would need to be extended. If we choose to use "Atrocity crimes" probably it would be needed to extend the criteria to something close to Rome Statue rather than only Genocide Convention.
Importantly, "complicity" is explicit in the article 3 of the GPPCG, so it seems to include the international cases added already so as far as we are explicit (with 'complicity' mentioned), as we do, we should keep them. Note that "Attempt to commit genocide", "Conspiracy to commit genocide", and "Direct and public incitement to commit genocide" are also part of the GPPCG which means that cases with these elements may be reviewed for inclusion if needed (again being explicit about Article 3 of GPPCG).

In summary:

I would support both Atrocity crimes committed by the United States and Genocide committed by the United States as far as we are clear about the criteria (probably others editors know more about how it applies to other pages to achieve consistency).
(Especially in the case of ‘Atrocity...’) I would include a small section on ecocide because although not directly a case of genocide/war crime/..., a major ecocide can be an element of genocide since ‘Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part’ is a defining element of genocide under the CPPCG.

AyubuZimbale (talk) 16:58, 12 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]