Talk:List of fictional vegetarian and vegan characters/Archive 1

Archive 1

Frankenstein

It has been very long time since I read 19th century literature but I recall author Mary Shelley's Frankenstein is vegetarian. The character is not however human and therefore I am uncertain as to whether or not that would fit with this particular list? BrikDuk (talk) 10:10, 5 October 2020 (UTC)

References

Hmm, @BrikDuk, good question. I don't see a problem with including nonhuman characters. You could call him something like "the Creature" or "Frankenstein's monster" as noted on the Frankenstein's monster page. Its a misnomer he is called Frankenstein...as that is the scientist who created him. So, yeah, feel free to write an entry about that.--Historyday01 (talk) 13:56, 5 October 2020 (UTC)

I will add as much relevant information as I can readily find to make this entry on this list. Thank you. BrikDuk (talk) 15:11, 5 October 2020 (UTC)

Sure. Sounds great.--Historyday01 (talk) 17:23, 5 October 2020 (UTC)

This is another good reason to go with chronological, to track the history of vegetarianism awareness in culture. Randy Kryn (talk) 17:45, 5 October 2020 (UTC)

Yeah, but as I said before, that would mess up the alphabetical order, and the page is about characters, not dates of when the characters premiered or were featured in whatever media. I did that before on the lists of LGBTQ characters, organizing them that way, until I changed it around after someone told me the same thing. --Historyday01 (talk) 18:36, 5 October 2020 (UTC)

Chronologically ordered?

Maybe the entries could be ordered chronologically, which seems standard in these kinds of lists. That builds an ordered timeline, which gives a flow to both the topic and each subtopic. Randy Kryn (talk) 21:59, 30 September 2020 (UTC)

Hmm, @Randy Kryn I would say yes, except that would mess them up being in order alphabetically. I'm just relying on how I've done it on other character lists, like the List of fictional intersex characters, List of fictional lesbian characters, and List of fictional bisexual characters to give some examples. If it was a list of shows, rather than characters, like the List of animated series with LGBTQ characters (and all the sub-lists that spring from it), then, yes, it could be ordered chronologically. In any case, I probably will soon start putting together a Vegetarian characters in fiction page, a bit like the Intersex characters in fiction page, perhaps. That's my thinking at least. Historyday01 (talk) 23:38, 30 September 2020 (UTC)

Well, @Randy Kryn, I did create a page titled Vegetarian characters in fiction, which follows the topic chronologically.

Primary vs. Secondary sources

I'm hoping to get some clearer guidance on the use of sources for facts stated in work of art or text. My understanding is that primary sources are fine for any fact that is obvious from the text (e.g. character names), but that secondary sources were needed for interpretation of the text, (e.g. themes).

For example if a text has a direct quote from a character saying "I'm a vegetarian," that would count as a straightforward fact that anybody could verify from the source. If, instead, the character orders a tofu burger in one scene, and refuses to eat a steak in another scene, we would need a secondary source to interpret this and draw the conclusion that the character is vegetarian.

I'd love to discuss this with @Historyday01 in particular but anyone else is welcome to weigh in!

ImSirLaserOwl (talk) 03:56, 5 February 2023 (UTC)

Notes

Removing Non-noteworthy Entries

I'm just explaining my reasoning here in case it warrants further discussion. It was a bit long for an edit summary!

I have removed:

• Arcus McCarthy: The character is not significant enough to have his own Wikipedia page, and neither is the main work. The only reference provided is the original source material, so I think it's fair to say this character isn't notable.
• Mega Bunny: I first came across this entire article because I was fixing {{cite comic}} templates and fixed this citation. Now that I've actually had a look at the article and its function, I don't think Mega Bunny belongs here. It isn't really a "character," more of passing mention of a wild herbivore. The only references are to the source material, and the webcomic itself isn't notable enough for its own page, and has actually been taken down. (It was adapted into a television series, which does have a page, and the wikilink leads to a paragraph of that page.)

I also would like to remove:

• Appa: I don't think herbivorous animals count as vegetarians, as they didn't choose that diet. I'm also not sure if a non-speaking, non-sapient pet animal counts as a character for the purposes of this list.
• Air Nomads: I'm not familiar enough with ATLA to judge if they count as a "character" but my gut instinct here is that an entire group, faction, or religion isn't a character, even if they are fictional and prominent in the plot. I'm open to feedback on this though.
• Vivian Sharpe: There are a couple of decent secondary sources for this character, but given that neither the character, book, nor author are notable enough for their own Wikipedia entry, I would question her inclusion on this list.

Warm regards,

ImSirLaserOwl (talk) 04:43, 5 February 2023 (UTC)

I think these are all fine, and am ok with removing Mega Bunny, Arcus McCarthy, Appa, and Vivian Sharpe. However, perhaps a line was added to the end Aang's entry, which would read:

Also, a member of the Sky Bison, otherwise known as Air Bison, Appa, is vegetarian.

Perhaps the "Air Nomads" entry could be changed to Tenzin, so it would say:

Tenzin, is vegetarian, as are all airbenders, otherwise known as Air Nomads. He attempts to convince a meat-eating airbender to join them in the episode "Rebirth", by noting the vegetarian diet of airbenders.

Does that make sense? Historyday01 (talk) 16:18, 5 February 2023 (UTC)

References

@Historyday01 Sounds good, I'll make these changes. :)

ImSirLaserOwl (talk) 19:27, 5 February 2023 (UTC)

Talk page discussions should continue longer than a few hours. I've added back the Vivian Sharpe entry. Although no page has been written on the author or the book, there are enough sources to do so. It seems a good entry. Why the author's names in that literature section are put in backwards surprised me, should be reversed per page consistency. Randy Kryn (talk) 23:53, 5 February 2023 (UTC)

@Randy Kryn Thanks! I appreciate your input. Is it worth redlinking either Vivian Sharpe or perhaps the book or author? It might encourage an article to be written, and indicate sufficient notability to be included (so sillies like me don't remove it! oops)

I'll have a look at the names list and see what's going on with it. I did notice they were funny but haven't had a chance to figure out how to fix it yet. Thanks for the reminder!Fixed the name list!

Cheers,

ImSirLaserOwl (talk) 01:38, 6 February 2023 (UTC)

After a quick search to see what sources are available, I have redlinked the author Marla Rose as there seems to be more material on her beyond that particular novel. :) Maybe someone will fill in the blanks someday!

Best,

ImSirLaserOwl (talk) 02:07, 6 February 2023 (UTC)

@Randy Kryn, perhaps, but talk page discussions can be short as well. There's no requirement that discussions need be a certain time limit and I wouldn't say the amount of edits proposed by ImSirLaserOwl, which I agreed with, could be considered "large" as it only concerned a very small number of entries on the page (five in total). But, surely, if there was a bigger edit, I'd surely bring in more people. In terms of the Vivian Sharpe entry, it surely does have sources, but I'm been, of late, as having the opinion that we should make sure that people don't start adding entries willy nilly. There need to be some limits. Historyday01 (talk) 02:30, 6 February 2023 (UTC)

Good points, and I agree with most of the suggested changes. Only one I added back was the Vivian Sharpe book since sources exist for both it and the author which could be used for an article if someone was so inclined. Non-notability doesn't have a cutoff line between "yes" and "no" depending on if a topic has a Wikipedia page or not, there are millions of articles yet to be written about notable things and people. That's why the Wikipedia symbol is of the unfinished globe - there are always more topics to construct and always more ways to improve existing pages. Randy Kryn (talk) 10:45, 6 February 2023 (UTC)

That's a fair point, and there are definitely LOTS of articles yet to be written about notable things and people. I mean, Women in Red has lists on missing articles of female lawyers, judges, and jurists. And I have my collection of pages I've wanted to write for a while as well. So, surely, there are always things to construct and more ways to improve existing pages. Historyday01 (talk) 13:55, 6 February 2023 (UTC)

Adding as a separate note for full disclosure. I knew Marla Rose and her husband in 2001 and 2002 but haven't seen or communicated with either in over 20 years. I didn't recognize her name or know about this book publication until realizing that the names were transposed (Rose Marla) in the section, and this was at the same time I was ascertaining if the sources seemed notable. Maybe I knew subconsciously from the start, who knows (the subconscious knows!), but don't think so, and was a bit surprised that the author was someone I knew. Randy Kryn (talk) 11:01, 6 February 2023 (UTC)

That's pretty interesting. I think the names were transposed because I saw it that way on another page originally? I mean, I admittedly didn't know, completely, what I was doing when I created the page in the first place (although I still believe creating the page was a good idea, especially after it survived that inane AfD, which was proposed only 20 days after the page was created!) so I'm not at all surprised there are still issues to iron out. But, thanks for improving the page in its early days back in 2020 and since then. As for full disclosure, I am a vegetarian myself (which was part of the reason I created the page, and related pages), and was part of some vegetarian groups while in college many years ago, but that's about it. Historyday01 (talk) 14:05, 6 February 2023 (UTC)