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RfC: Has Rimac sold more than 24 Rimac Nevera ?

Is the statement "more than 24 Rimac Nevera have been sold" based on reliable sources ?

The Rimac company has officially declared that they have already sold 50 cars [1][2] and sources like Frankfurter Allgemeine Zeitung, Neue Zürcher Zeitung, Whichcar and Auto Bild also write that they've already sold 50.

For one side there is enough evidence to consider "more than 24 Neveras have been sold" as confirmed by reliable sources, while the other side disagrees, stating since there has been false information in the past, Rimac could be lying and the media would just copy what they say.

Is the statement "more than 24 Rimac Nevera have been sold" based on reliable sources ? Drachentötbär (talk) 01:52, 22 June 2023 (UTC)

We have thoroughly commented that. You are now repeating yourselve, so will I. Rimac and his press release which for more then a decade publishes lies and exaggerations which are then copy pasted by other media outlets are NOT a reliable source. If more than a decade of lies and exaggerations are not enough for you, then you still believe that WMD exist in Iraq, because it was published by reliable sources. Reliable sources also published various claims that were the "truth" about Elizabeth Holmes and Theranos, Trevor Milton and Nikola, Sam Bankman-Fried and FTX, Adam Neumann and WeWork, Charlie Javice and Frank, Markus Braun and Wirecard, and many, many more. There is a reliable source, name for that is annual financial report.
Lets start with the beginning.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QmZosqeKsgA
Concept One
5 years ago, "Rimac automobili" presented their plan to manufacture 88 cars, 10 to 15 cars per year. Between 3rd and 4th of October 2017 the company secretly modified an article from year 2012 at their website by replacing "The production is limited to only 88 units, 10 to 15 cars per year." with "The production is limited to only 8 units, tailored by the customer’s wishes, every car is an exquisite masterpiece.". That modification came as a result of my comment on their YouTube video • Work at Rimac: Be... in which I wondered why they currently claim a limited production run of 8 cars for Rimac Concept One, since they originally claimed for 5 years in a row that it was limited to 88 cars. This video is captured directly in an active web browser to show the exact modifications in both versions of that particular article. You can read the recently modified version of the 2012 article here, intentionally faked by Rimac by the end of 2017:
https://www.rimac-automobili.com/en/press/releases/concept_one-competing-at-the-concorso-deleganza-villa-deste/
The original 2012 article is preserved here for everyone who want to read the truth:
https://web.archive.org/web/20170721201206/http://www.rimac-automobili.com/en/press/releases/concept_one-competing-at-the-concorso-deleganza-villa-deste/
Concept One is constructed entirely from parts built in the company's home of Croatia and includes 24 patented innovations.
https://www.cbsnews.com/pictures/worlds-first-1-million-electric-supercar/
All lies, there are no 24 patented innovations, and all parts were bought from various sources, chassis is modified GTM kit car, frame was made by Board Guardian, carbon parts by Motoplastika MAC, electric motors are from AM Racing, inverters from Rinehart Motion, glass from Lipik Glass, wheels from HRE wheels, infotainment Xylon, BMS, HMI (COMs and software) from Qt and Toradex, BMS is from Analog Devices, machining and CNC parts from Kvočić. And yet, they are saying:
"We are vertically integrated and from development to production we do everything here, from the first drafts, the first line on paper, to the finished component on the car."
"Nothing was bought and just installed. We developed everything ourselves from scratch and I am proud that we make cars like this not far from Zagreb in Croatia"
"With every aspect of the C_Two produced on-site at Rimac’s facility..."
"even the jigs and tooling for each individual piece are produced on-site"
We have sold 10 cars
https://www.jutarnji.hr/autoklub/aktualno/rimac-o-concept_oneu-kupci-nam-stizu-sa-svih-strana-svijeta-vec-smo-ih-prodali-deset-1724397
We have reservations for 88 cars
https://www.24sata.hr/news/velika-potraznja-i-princ-uzdise-za-elektrojurilicom-iz-hrvatske-264457
First homologated cars from serial production will arrive in 2015
https://www.vecernji.hr/biznis/prva-serija-rimac-automobila-na-trziste-stize-vec-2015-godine-926862
By 2020 we will build 800 cars
https://www.netokracija.com/mate-rimac-startup-addventure-zagreb-101882
We have sold two Concept S cars
https://www.tportal.hr/tehno/clanak/rimac-prodao-oba-concepta-s-evo-koliko-su-kostali-20170315
We have sold out Nevera, buyer asked me to go to the moon with him
https://www.tportal.hr/biznis/clanak/za-projekt-autonomnih-taksija-nisu-znali-ni-nasi-zaposlenici-u-njega-cemo-uloziti-milijarde-eura-rasprodali-smo-prvu-seriju-nevere-kupac-mi-je-nudio-da-odem-s-njim-na-mjesec-foto-20210706
In 2015 we made the car which drives without driver but we can't show that to anybody, it's a secret
https://n1info.hr/vijesti/a53001-rimac-napravili-smo-automobil-bez-vozaca/
We are going to build first electric yacht in the world
https://www.jutarnji.hr/vijesti/hrvatska/novi-poslovni-potez-mate-rimca-gradi-prvu-brzu-elektricnu-jahtu-na-svijetu-784954
When Hammond crashed Concept One, he said it was private car, and Rimac is confirming, it was a car from the buyer who borrowed the car for the shoot.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=18oAkxwYQh0
The truth is in annual records, the car was not private, from the buyer, the car was from Rimac automobili
https://i.ibb.co/gmKqtv7/Annual.jpg
We have sold 150 Neveras
https://www.jutarnji.hr/autoklub/aktualno/u-svetoj-nedelji-otvaraju-sampanjac-planulo-svih-150-primjeraka-modela-c_two-ukupne-vrijednosti-255-milijuna-eura-7185876
We are working on a space elevator
https://www.vecernji.hr/auti/foto-domaci-uspjeh-hrvatska-izvozi-prvi-automobil-u-povijesti-494468
We made 1000 electric hovercafts and we are working on a flying car:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VrBTnQHbPM4
Is that enough or should I continue? Most of the claims were published in various media, so this is all truth because it was published by reliable sources.
On the other hand, annual report for 2022 income 12,41 million EUR with - 33,43 million EUR loss.
Let's concentrate on the income. Starting price for Nevera is 2,5 million USD. 12,41 million EUR = 13,5 million USD. Their last claim for sold cars - 50 sold cars. 50x2,5=125, that is 125 million USD, while their income is 13,5 million USD. If they sold 50 cars, why numbers doesn't add up? So no, they have not produced or sold (at least not yet 25 cars). If there is going to be any voting for listing Nevera, maybe you should try in a couple of years. SoldierBoy12345 (talk) 02:26, 24 June 2023 (UTC)
Verifiability, not truth. If reliable secondary sources, which those noted above are, state that Rimac has sold 50 Neveras, then that is how many Wikipedia will state have been sold. "I think Rimac is lying because they've lied before" is not grounds for dismissing those sources.
However, the Whichcar? article (I can't read the others) phrases it as "...the first 50 are already sold." That suggests to me that they've been sold before being built. Since the criteria for inclusion in this list states 25 or more articles made, not sold, there would need to be sources stating that at least 25 cars have actually left the factory and been delivered to buyers. --Sable232 (talk) 15:59, 24 June 2023 (UTC)
Thanks for your input Sable232. There is a footnote at rule 2 which states: It's sufficient if 25 cars were sold and deliveries have started. So if 25 cars were sold, the car qualifies for the list. Drachentötbär (talk) 17:09, 24 June 2023 (UTC)
I did miss that footnote - it's easy to overlook with how it's placed. It seems counter to the point of the rule to me, but if that's the agreed-upon threshold, then sales vs. production isn't a concern. --Sable232 (talk) 19:08, 24 June 2023 (UTC)

The outside input by Sable232 on our controversial point explained Verifiability, not truth. Original research claims don't matter. We should act according to the reliable sources which state that Rimac sold 50 Neveras and add the car to the list now.Drachentötbär (talk) 22:38, 1 July 2023 (UTC)

Verifiable and reliable sources like annual financial reports shows us Rimac has not delivered or sold 50 (or 25 cars).
https://sudreg.pravosudje.hr/registar/f?p=150:28:0::NO:28:P28_SBT_MBS:080712981
https://rgfi.fina.hr/JavnaObjava-web/jsp/prijavaKorisnika.jsp
https://infobiz.fina.hr/landing
Verifiable and reliable sources like articles and interviews states they are again lying, and states Rimac has not delivered or sold 50 (or 25 cars).
Rimac is personally delivering cars, so far, three cars are delivered (not including Rosberg). They have stated that they will deliver 50 cars by the end of 2023. When they deliver 25 cars, you can add that car to the list. Markkonen (talk) 23:49, 4 July 2023 (UTC)
About the annual financial reports: Cars are usually paid after delivery and global companies have a lot of options to handle payments, you are just making dubious original research claims not supported by reliable sources who have access to the annual reports too.
The sources about Rimac lying are not reliable, especially what "a professional 'hater' on Facebook" says in an interview.
Three cars were delivered to the US, but cars were also delivered to other countries before [3].
Auto Bild stated in May that about 15-20 have been delivered, considering that delivery takes several weeks and one car is built per week there should be more than 25 cars built by now.
But that's not relevant. Reliable sources were given which state that more than 24 cars were sold and none were given to contradict them. Drachentötbär (talk) 02:59, 5 July 2023 (UTC)
Likewise, that's not relevant. I'm not making any "dubious original research claims not supported by reliable sources", I'm using verifiable and reliable sources, also annual reports are available for everyone, I have given the links multiple times. Also, the sources about Rimac lying are verifiable and reliable. And now, you have started to making things up, interview was given recently for Jutarnji list, and he said, quote "If I'm a professional hater, he's a professional liar". Reliable sources were given which states Rimac has not delivered or sold 50 (or 25 cars). As said previously, when they deliver/sell 25 cars, you can add that car to the list. Markkonen (talk) 14:20, 5 July 2023 (UTC)
Hi Markkonen and Drachentötbär - I took a look at the Auto Bild article and it definitely calls into question the previously stated 50 car number. I suspect that Rimac are counting the prototypes to arrive at the build number in the earlier article. I would have to agree with Markkonen that we need to wait for something confirming 25+ cars have been built and delivered before adding it to the list. Rimac's numbers are not at all reliable at this stage. NealeWellington (talk) 22:56, 5 July 2023 (UTC)
The AutoBild article stated that 15 to 20 customer vehicles had been delivered to date and that around 50 Neveras had been sold.
Der Plan sieht vor, 150 Nevera zu bauen. Interessant ist, dass davon bisher nur rund 50 Stück verkauft wurden.
which Google correctly translates as
And speaking of the price, the plan is to build 150 Nevera. It is interesting that only around 50 of these have been sold so far.
It doesn't call into question that 50 cars were sold, on the contrary, it confirms it.
Could you please elaborate why you think it calls the 50 car number into question ? Drachentötbär (talk) 01:51, 6 July 2023 (UTC)
AutoBild article stated that 15 to 20 customer vehicles had been delivered, interesting, someone from Rimac is providing information 15 to 20 cars have been delivered, how come they don't know is it 15 or 20? BTW 15 or 20 is not 25. In the same time other manufacturers knows precise numbers of cars produced, for example Lucid, 7180 cars produced in 2022.
https://ir.lucidmotors.com/news-releases/news-release-details/lucid-produced-3493-vehicles-q4-2022-and-7180-full-year-2022/
In the same time, I have provided article, Mate Rimac is personally delivering cars to the customers, so far three cars are delivered (not including Nico), but you are ignoring that fact. Markkonen (talk) 03:15, 26 July 2023 (UTC)

I took a look at the 2022 annual report and found out that the numbers from SoldierBoy12345's claim "annual report for 2022 income 12,41 million EUR with - 33,43 million EUR loss" don't exist there. It doesn't contradict the reliable sources which say that 50 Neveras were sold (i.e. how many contracts of sale for the Nevera were made). We do not know when payments were made or will be made for the cars ordered in 2018 and delivered in 2023 so it's pointless speculating which income should be written there. Reliable sources were given which directly support that more than 24 Neveras were sold, a controversial Facebook poster saying "If I'm a professional hater, he's a professional liar" doesn't even contradict this. Drachentötbär (talk) 02:41, 12 July 2023 (UTC)

Since 2021, long before production started, the media reported that 50 Neveras had been sold without contradiction. Reliable sources which directly state this have been given:

Whichcar: Just 150 Neveras will be made, with a production schedule of one car per week, and each will carry an eye watering price tag of AUD$3.1m. Such is the demand for Rimac’s product, however, that the first 50 are already sold.

Frankfurter Allgemeine Zeitung: It takes five weeks to make a Nevera by hand, and the 50 copies that should be ready in the first year have already been sold. (translated from Einen Nevera herzustellen dauert in Handarbeit fünf Wochen, die 50 Exemplare, die im ersten Jahr fertig werden sollen, sind schon verkauft.)

Auto Bild: The plan is to build 150 Nevera. It is interesting that only around 50 of these have been sold so far. (translated from Der Plan sieht vor, 150 Nevera zu bauen. Interessant ist, dass davon bisher nur rund 50 Stück verkauft wurden.)

Neue Zürcher Zeitung: As a technical marvel full of superlatives, the Rimac Nevera is no bargain. Customers have to pay two million euros for it. And there are already quite a few of them. A third of the limited edition of 150 copies has already been sold. (translated from Der Rimac Nevera ist als technisches Wunderwerk voller Superlative allerdings kein Schnäppchen. Zwei Millionen Euro müssen die Kunden dafür schon bezahlen. Und von denen gibt es bereits einige. Die auf 150 Exemplare begrenzte Auflage ist bereits zu einem Drittel verkauft.)

There are many sources stating that at least 25 Neveras have been sold and zero sources contradicting it. Drachentötbär (talk) 21:11, 24 July 2023 (UTC)
Since 2018, long before production started, the Rimac stated, and media reported that 150 Neveras had been sold without contradiction.
That story was held until 2022. when Rimac said that was misunderstanding.
Also, there are many sources given which directly support that 25 (50) cars were not sold, including annual reports. Markkonen (talk) 03:30, 26 July 2023 (UTC)
I don't know where have you looked, but numbers from annual report from 2022 are correct. Annual report is more reliable than lies from Rimac which are then without fact checking published in various articles. Reliable sources were given which directly support that 25 (50) cars were not sold. Lucijan Caric is doyen of Croatian IT industry, co-owner of DefenseCode which has recently been sold to Whitesource (they now changed name to Mend.io), and yes, his recent interview contradicts number of sold cars. Markkonen (talk) 03:25, 26 July 2023 (UTC)
Back up claims about reliable sources given which "directly support that 25 (50) cars were not sold." Specify the location, quote the words, just like I did above. You've been claiming for months that the media are all wrong about this without any reliable sources to back it up, just spamming links and claims which drives away other editors. Drachentötbär (talk) 19:43, 27 July 2023 (UTC)
Claims were backed up million times, with quotes, references and links. Read previous posts and also archive talk posts. All media was wrong from 2018 to 2022, they were saying Rimac sold 150 cars. Same was previous with Concept One and claims about 88 sold cars which lasted for about a decade. You are the one who is spamming with new false claims from Rimac (which nobody can confirm or verifiy with at least annual financial records) which drives away other editors. Markkonen (talk) 02:45, 28 July 2023 (UTC)
There wasn't any reliable source given which directly supports that 25 (50) cars were not sold. If you think I overlooked something it should be easy for you to post it here while specifying the location and quoting the words, like I did above. Drachentötbär (talk) 21:30, 28 July 2023 (UTC)
You have (again) "overlooked" everything. There are many reliable source given which directly supports that 25 (50) cars were not sold. It's backed up million times, with quotes, references and links. Read previous posts and also archive talk posts. Markkonen (talk) 02:09, 3 August 2023 (UTC)

This debate has gone on long enough - it is getting nowhere. I had a good read of the following:

In essence, they say that WP repeats what is found explicitly in published materials. They also say that WP does not do original research or synthesise information from other sources. If it is not stated explicitly then WP does not treat it as a fact.

In the above, we have multiple references saying that at least 50 copies of the Nevera have been sold. Not all of them may have been built and/or delivered but they have been reported in reliable sources as being sold. Therefore, WP treats this as a fact.

On the other hand, we have a claim that these references are merely repeating lies by Rimac. Maybe they are, maybe they aren't. But as long as the references are from reliable sources and there are no contradicting references explicitly saying that these are lies then WP must still treat the references as reporting facts.

Claims based on calculations from financial statements constitute original research and synthesis. WP:NOR and WP:SYNTH ban this and therefore WP cannot treat such theories as facts. We would need a reference to present this information and to explicitly say that 50 cars were not built. Note that a car being sold might (or might not) be effectively just a recording of the customer's name in a ledger and large sums of money might not necessarily change hands until the car is built and delivered in the future - this would not show up in annual financial statements.

Now, just in case I missed something, does anybody have a reference from a reliable source that explicitly and directly says that the 50 cars were not built. If no such reference is presented to us and the Nevera entry continues to be removed then I will call in the administrators to judge as they see fit. But if such references (from reliable sources) are found then we put the Nevera in a 'Controversial' section with both positive and negative references and tell the reader that its status is currently ambiguous.  Stepho  talk  07:27, 29 July 2023 (UTC)

Maybe you should have a good read on
WP:SNOW
WP:NPOV
Again on WP:OR
And WP:FLS ITY
In above, Archive_2, we had attempts to add Rimac Concept One on the list. Numerous verifiable and reliable sources were writing, for example, 2011., Concept One, production is limited to only 88 units, 10 to 15 cars per year, customers will get first cars in 2013:
https://dnevnik.hr/vijesti/automotiv/rimac-u-frankfurtu-predstavilo-fenomenalni-concept-one.html
https://www.rimac-automobili.com/media/press-releases/exclusive-uk-debut-of-the-rimac-concept_one-electric-hyper-car/
https://www.vecernji.hr/auti/hrvatski-elektricni-superautomobil-stajat-ce-55-milijuna-kuna-405580
https://web.archive.org/web/20170721201206/http://www.rimac-automobili.com/en/press/releases/concept_one-competing-at-the-concorso-deleganza-villa-deste/
Etc...
10 sold immediately after presentation in Frankfurt 2011 (annual financial statement which is freely available to the public does not support that):
https://www.jutarnji.hr/autoklub/aktualno/rimac-o-concept_oneu-kupci-nam-stizu-sa-svih-strana-svijeta-vec-smo-ih-prodali-deset-1724397
They have 24 patents in the car (no they don't, you can look it up, all patents are available to the public - public disclosure)
Rimac later, paraphrase: "we are faster than patents, so we don't do that"
Millionaires starting to order the car (annual financial statement which is freely available to the public does not support that):
https://www.jutarnji.hr/vijesti/hrvatska/milijunasi-poceli-narucivati-hrvatsku-elektricnu-jurilicu-concept-one-1521906
They have 88 reservations (freely avaailable to the public annual financial statement does not support that):
https://www.24sata.hr/news/velika-potraznja-i-princ-uzdise-za-elektrojurilicom-iz-hrvatske-264457
2014, Rimac "we have secured funding for homologation, Concept One is going into serial production
https://www.index.hr/auto/clanak/concept-one-krece-u-serijsku-proizvodnju/742908.aspx
https://www.vecernji.hr/biznis/prva-serija-rimac-automobila-na-trziste-stize-vec-2015-godine-926862
https://www.netokracija.com/rimac-osigurao-5-milijuna-eura-za-serijsku-proizvodnju-concepta-one-u-hrvatskoj-70360
We will have first serial model in 2016., that will be made in 88 examples.
https://www.poslovni.hr/hrvatska/rimac-bit-cu-u-gubitku-no-moja-tvrtka-nije-na-prodaju-racunam-na-profit-najranije-2016-283839
2014: We are making world's first fast electric yacht
https://www.jutarnji.hr/vijesti/hrvatska/novi-poslovni-potez-mate-rimca-gradi-prvu-brzu-elektricnu-jahtu-na-svijetu-784954
Luxury electric yachts of the company Rimac automobili will be produced in Elan's facilities in Obrovac from next year.
https://www.24sata.hr/tech/jahta-koja-ne-zagauje-duga-je-15-metara-i-plovi-na-struju-389011
2015.: Rimac Automobili will produce 800 cars in 2020
https://www.netokracija.com/mate-rimac-startup-addventure-zagreb-101882
2015: Rimac: "We made a car that is driving without a driver" "we are working on a vessel that floats above the water, this year we made 300 examples, next year we will make 1000" "we are also working on a flying car, we will soon need an airfield for us"
https://n1info.hr/vijesti/a53001-rimac-napravili-smo-automobil-bez-vozaca/
"We are making batteries for magnetic-levitation trains (Maglev) from the United States"
"We are making batteries for space elevator"
https://www.vecernji.hr/auti/foto-domaci-uspjeh-hrvatska-izvozi-prvi-automobil-u-povijesti-494468
2016: Rimac will soon start making cars for Apple?
https://www.index.hr/vijesti/clanak/rimac-ce-uskoro-proizvoditi-automobile-i-za-apple/883042.aspx
2017: Rimac is attacking Nurburgring and announcing new model
https://www.index.hr/auto/clanak/rimac-napada-n%C3%BCrburgring-i-najavljuje-novi-model/951963.aspx
When Hammond crashed Concept One, he said it was a private car, and Rimac is confirming, it was a car from the buyer who borrowed the car for the shoot.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=18oAkxwYQh0
The truth is in annual records, the car was not private, from the buyer, the car was from Rimac automobili
https://i.ibb.co/gmKqtv7/Annual.jpg
2017: Rimac sold both Concept S cars (annual financial statement which is freely available to the public does not support that):
https://www.tportal.hr/tehno/clanak/rimac-prodao-oba-concepta-s-evo-koliko-su-kostali-20170315
Rimac – an innovator who created a whole new industry (annual financial statements which are freely available to the public does not support that)
https://www.vecernji.hr/biznis/rimac-inovator-koji-je-stvorio-jednu-cijelu-novu-industriju-1446388
How Rimac's technology becomes the savior of the German auto industry (annual financial statements which are freely available to the public does not support that)
https://www.nacional.hr/kako-rimceva-tehnologija-postaje-spasitelj-njemacke-autoindustrije/
2021. Rimac Automobili insist that robot taxis (level 5) will be ready by the end of 2024: 'They will be produced in the Republic of Croatia, we will export large quantities'
https://www.telegram.hr/biznis-tech/rimac-automobili-inzistiraju-da-ce-robotaksiji-biti-spremni-do-kraja-2024-proizvodit-ce-se-u-rh-izvoziti-cemo-velike-kolicine/
2018. Concept Two later renamed to Nevera, 150 sold immediately after presentation in Frankfurt 2011 (annual financial statement which is freely available to the public does not support that)
https://www.jutarnji.hr/autoklub/aktualno/u-svetoj-nedelji-otvaraju-sampanjac-planulo-svih-150-primjeraka-modela-c_two-ukupne-vrijednosti-255-milijuna-eura-7185876
https://www.motor1.com/news/237648/rimac-c-two-sold-out/
https://web.archive.org/web/20180330012827/https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/motor-shows-geneva-motor-show/%C2%A315m-rimac-ctwo-hypercar-almost-sold-out-three-weeks
https://www.carscoops.com/2018/03/potent-rimac-c_two-almost-sold-three-weeks-premiere/
Story about 150 cars repeated itself from 2018 to 2022, in various media, Rimac was in various TV interviews, asked about 150 sold cars, he never negated it, then in 2022 story changed, Rimac said that story about 150 sold cars was misunderstanding, that Nevera is not sold out, and later in 2022. they made a new story that 50 cars are sold, again, annual financial statement which is freely available to the public does not support that.
Regarding annual financial statements which are freely available to the public, annual financial statements are NOT WP:OR
Furthermore, many articles and interviews are questioning the veracity of various announcements and statements from Rimac, including the number of cars sold
https://www.bilten.org/?p=22989
https://forum.tm/vijesti/sto-zapravo-proizvodi-mate-rimac-7815
https://www.bilten.org/?p=44365
https://www.paraf.hr/hdz-ov-poduzetnik-poslovni-mediji-sve-se-vise-sprdaju-s-rimcem-pretvara-vodu-u-vino/
https://www.paraf.hr/ovo-je-bomba-na-internetu-osvanule-sve-muljaze-mate-rimca-pogledajte-kome-dajemo-novac/
https://www.paraf.hr/iste-novine-drugi-akteri-kada-mediji-po-stoti-puta-objave-da-je-mate-rimac-vizionar-sjetite-se-ovog/
https://www.paraf.hr/raskrinkavanje-rimac-lazno-objavio-kako-je-prodao-150-auta-na-web-shopu-prodaje-makete/
https://www.paraf.hr/razotkriven-iza-davanja-novca-mati-rimcu-ipak-se-krije-tajkunsko-hdz-ovska-muljaza/
https://www.paraf.hr/rimac-se-pozalio-da-ga-ignorira-elon-musk-mozda-zato-sto-musk-proizvodi-tesla-aute-a-rimac-maglu/
https://www.portalnovosti.com/mate-matika
https://www.portalnovosti.com/rimac-najmoprimac
https://www.portalnovosti.com/mate-rimac-protiv-dezurnih-hejtera
https://www.portalnovosti.com/neprijateljska-propaganda-kapitalisticki-nadrealizam
https://www.portalnovosti.com/robotaksi-u-praksi
https://www.portalnovosti.com/sirotiste-za-bogatune
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zvnrLj54DLw
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uVB8o6M4410
Etc.
Even a few members of Croatian parliament are questioning Rimac, most prominent is this one:
Peović: Mate Rimac is a fraud
https://www.index.hr/vijesti/clanak/peovic-rimac-je-prevara-balkanska-verzija-elizabeth-holmes/2417840.aspx Markkonen (talk) 03:28, 3 August 2023 (UTC)
I feel like we are allowing Rimac to make a claim and that becomes fact. They claim they've "sold" (vs. built/delivered) some number of cars. Their financial filings don't reflect that. The request by the mods here are stating that the burden of proof is on us to prove they HAVEN'T sold/build some number of cars. This is the old argument of guilty until proven innocent vs. innocent until proven guilty. By this logic, I could put up a website, claim I have 50 cars sold that perform a certain way, and they top the list. I, as a website owner, don't have to prove anything. It's up the Wikipedia public to prove that I don't have such a car. If a fact can't be proven as true, then it has to be assumed as false. TonyBerry (talk) 16:02, 3 August 2023 (UTC)
I agree. Markkonen (talk) 02:08, 7 August 2023 (UTC)

50 mostly Croatian weblinks were put in one posting but we're still waiting for the promised reliable sources supposed to directly support that 25 cars were not sold. Four reliable sources including reputable newspapers were given stating that 50 cars have been sold. Don't spam meaningless weblinks with vague claims, specify the locations, quote the words, just like I did above. Drachentötbär (talk) 18:51, 3 August 2023 (UTC)

The guidelines are very clear. I, too, doubt Rimac's production/sales claims but that doesn't mean that I am allowed to engage in WP:OR. However, Portal Novosti seems reasonably dependable so I suggest including Rimac for now, but with an asterisk since the sales figures are disputed. I do think that including sales of unbuilt cars is a very bad idea in light of how frequently these kinds of manufacturers make exaggerated claims in the hope of finding investors.  Mr.choppers | ✎  19:40, 3 August 2023 (UTC)
Markkonen@: Assuming good faith on your part, I went through your the external links until I got to netokracija. They were all old links from about 10 years ago about the Concept One and not one of them mentioned anything about lies concerning vehicle production figure. We asked you for references about the Nevera, not the Concept One, and we asked you for references explicitly saying that the current production figure claims are wrong. Therefore, I must reverse my assumption about your good faith and now I must assume that you are either maliciously wasting our time, or don't understand English very well or are just plain stupid. Yes, I'm pissed off at you for wasting my time!
I will make it simple for you:
  1. Give 2-4 (not more than 4) references from reliable sources from the last couple of years that explicitly say that Rimac is lying about the number of cars built or sold.
  2. Do not spam us with dozens of references.
  3. Do not spam us with out of date references that do not apply to the current situation.
  4. Do not spam us with references about the Concept One.
  5. Do not spam us with references where we have to deduce things from so-called inconsistencies in financial records.
  6. References must be explicit, recent, about the Nevera, and mention about production figures being lies.
Post another irrelevant spam log like you just did and I will call the administrators immediately - no more warnings!  Stepho  talk  04:59, 4 August 2023 (UTC)
We have called administrators before, and I have already called them.
You are now doing against WP policies, WP:PA, WP:CIVIL, Wikipedia:Harassment, WP:HOSTILE, WP:NOTRELIABLE, WP:VNOT, WP:RS, WP:VENDOR, WP:PARTISAN, WP:QUESTIONABLE, WP:SPONSORED, WP:EXCEPTIONAL, WP:GEVAL, WP:BESTSOURCES, just to name a few.
I have given you enough proofs, including history of lies dating from the begining, including most important, and most reliable and verifiable - annual financial records, which shows that 25 are not produced, sold, or delivered. Markkonen (talk) 02:56, 7 August 2023 (UTC)
Annual financial records are not original research. Annual financial records tells us they have not build or sold more than 10 production, road legal cars. Like stated in WP:V, exceptional claims require exceptional sources WP:EXCEPTIONAL. Markkonen (talk) 02:12, 7 August 2023 (UTC)
You were given proofs, but you are not reading. Also, read:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/List_of_fastest_production_cars_by_acceleration
Like it was written, media have the tendency to use manufacturer claims, without any proof, and in case of Rimac all claims, dating back to 2011. were proven to be lies.
And WP:V Markkonen (talk) 02:07, 7 August 2023 (UTC)

Enough. Markkonen, your issue seems to be with the "sold but not necessarily built" qualifier. If that's your problem, then start a discussion about that, instead of bludgeoning this discussion.

If that isn't what your issue is, then you need to provide multiple reliable sources that directly contradict the existing sourced information that 50 Rimac Neveras have been sold. No more walls of text, no more links to articles about other models, just the reliable sources about the specific point of contention. "Rimac lied before so they must be lying now" is NOT pertinent and it is not Wikipedia's place to make that judgement. --Sable232 (talk) 03:16, 7 August 2023 (UTC)

@Markkonen: The protection you requested on this article expires in two-and-a-half days, and you still have not provided the clear and explicit evidence you have been asked for. If your plan is to wait until the article is unprotected and make your changes again without providing that evidence here, your conduct will be reported to Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents. --Sable232 (talk) 14:22, 4 September 2023 (UTC)

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