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Reconsider the subdivision by state

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I appreciate the effort that went into subdividing this new article by state, but my initial reaction to the subdivision is that it doesn't work.

The most significant issue is that many of these stores were located in more than one state. For example, I recall Hess's as being a department store in Tennessee, not Pennsylvania, where it is listed in this article. The store that I remember as Hess's had previously been Miller's, then was converted to Hess's (now that I am reminded, I remember that this happened when Miller's was bought by a Pennsylvania company), then became Proffitt's, and finally was absorbed into Belk. Since Hess's operated in 11 states, listing Hess's under Pennsylvania (where its corporate headquarters was located) will prevent many seekers of knowledge from finding the information. Then there's Gimbel's -- yes, it's widely known to be a New York store, but it was founded in Indiana, there were separate Gimbel's divisions in Pennsylvania and Wisconsin, and there also were stores in New Jersey and Connecticut.

A secondary issue is that New England (a subdivision on the current list) isn't a state, and should not appear on a list of states alongside real states such as Alabama, California, Idaho, New York, etc.

Let's return this list to its former alphabetical format. --orlady 04:19, 8 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Just found this list, and I have to agree with the above comment. Listing by state is confusing, and both makes it hard to find things, and results in redundancies. For example: Woolworth's, listed under "New York" at it's peak operated more than 2000 stores, in virtually every US state, as well as Canada, Ireland, Germany, Austria, and several other countries.
Makes a great deal more sense to list the stores alphabetically.
Might be a good idea to redo this page in Table format, also. Suggested columns could be: Store Name; Place Founded; Date Founded; Date Defunct; # of Stores at Peak; Other Names (AKA).
70.89.176.249 (talk) 22:48, 16 October 2018 (UTC)[reply]
I also agree that an alphabetical listing by store name would be far more useful and informative than the current listing by state. Looks like changing the "by state" listing has been suggested for going on 14 years now. Is anybody actually going to change it?
74.95.43.253 (talk) 21:40, 9 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]
I took care of Michigan. And that illustrates what can be done in a "by state" listing. This requires effort by editors to fill out each state. Nothing inherently wrong with this organization, IMO. 7&6=thirteen (☎) 15:20, 19 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

List inclusion criteria

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Per WP:LIST in order to make this a maintainable article that does not fail WP:NOT, this list needs inclusion criteria. Until another is agreed upon, I suggest the common criteria of only listing entries with their own articles. --Ronz (talk) 19:23, 9 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

  • I strongly disagree. As indicated at WP:LIST#Information, a list can be a valuable information source even if it does not point readers to articles about the list elements. I submit that this list of defunct department stores is an excellent example of a list that can be a valuable resource even in the absence of articles about the list elements. Furthermore, see Wikipedia:Lists (stand-alone lists)#Lead and selection criteria, which states "Ideally each entry on a list should have its own Wikipedia article but this is not required if it is reasonable to expect an article could be forthcoming in the future; the one exception is for list articles that are created explicitly because the listed items do not warrant independent articles: an example of this is List of minor characters in Dilbert." --Orlady (talk) 19:51, 9 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
See WP:WTAF. Another alternative is to provide references for entries or sections of entries. --Ronz (talk) 19:58, 9 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
The most notable topic behind this list is the rapid sequence of events (including serial mergers, acquisitions, renamings, and closures) that resulted in the disappearance of many long-standing retail institutions across the United States. The list is useful as a tool for keeping track of the names of these vanished stores, and who absorbed whom. The list has value, whether or not there is a separate article about every store on the list. However, references are sorely needed. --Orlady (talk) 15:48, 10 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
References would solve the problem. Unfortunately there are none at all. I've tagged it as unreferenced, but I think this type of list is unfit for Wikipedia. Let's see if some editors come through with references. Even external links to similar lists would be helpful. --Ronz (talk) 15:59, 10 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
There are a lot of references now. And there are way more out there. But it requires editors and lots of work to do what I accomplished in the Michigan section. 7&6=thirteen (☎) 15:41, 19 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Unimart

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Possible missing entry: there was a large Unimart on Hollywood Way in Burbank circa 1962 until circa 1971. I have no idea as to how many stores comprised the chain. I believe that Unimart has no relation to Uni-Mart. LorenzoB (talk) 04:31, 8 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]

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not notable?

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Is Odd Job Stores Inc. notable enough to be on the list?Ssjhowarthisawesome (talk) 23:59, 11 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]

The multi-state chain is already listed under the List of defunct department stores of the United States#National and regional section. 50.195.200.161 (talk) 02:57, 18 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]
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Stores wrongly listed in "Department stores merged with Federated and May" section

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Neither W.T. Grant now Zayre belong in this section. They had nothing to do with Federated or May or any of their predecessors or subsidiaries.

Great source

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The Department Store Museum is there starting archives. And here With lots of additional material added therafter. 7&6=thirteen (☎) 19:06, 11 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Attribution

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Text and references copied from List of defunct department stores of the United States to The Arbaugh, See former article's history for a list of contributors. 7&6=thirteen (☎) 12:22, 12 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Text and references copied from List of defunct department stores of the United States to William Milliken, See former article's history for a list of contributors. 7&6=thirteen (☎) 13:17, 12 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Text and references copied from The Arbaugh to List of defunct department stores of the United States, See former article's history for a list of contributors. 7&6=thirteen (☎) 15:13, 19 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Text and references copied from List of defunct department stores of the United States to Zayre, See former article's history for a list of contributors. 7&6=thirteen (☎) 14:21, 4 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Text and references copied from Shoppers Fair to List of defunct department stores of the United States. See former article's history for a list of contributors. 7&6=thirteen (☎) 13:11, 8 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Text and references copied from List of defunct department stores of the United States to Fashion Square Mall. See former article's history for a list of contributors. 7&6=thirteen (☎) 12:26, 20 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Text and references copied from List of defunct department stores of the United States to Lauerman Brothers Department Store. See former article's history for a list of contributors. 7&6=thirteen (☎) 15:00, 17 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Text and references copied from Lauerman Brothers Department Store to List of defunct department stores of the United States See former article's history for a list of contributors. 7&6=thirteen (☎) 15:06, 17 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Goedeker's 1847

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Goedeker's 1847 filed for bankruptcy, despite being founded in 1951.[1][2] 7&6=thirteen (☎) 16:35, 3 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

References

  1. ^ Kline, Daniel (March 1, 2024). "Retail chain closing all stores after Chapter 7 bankruptcy filing". The company, which has a storied history, has abruptly shut down.
  2. ^ Polished, which began as Goedeker's 1847 Plans to File for Bankruptcy. Saint Louis Post Dispatch

Do not remove this source Source removed

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User:Kuru This edit was reverted as being unhelpful.
The source you removed is the unique and ONLY source for a number of the mentioned Michigan stores. You removed the source for them! That content is similar to Wikipedia's article now does not mean it should be eliminated. You trashed the sourcing. "List of Defunct Department Stores of the United States". alchetron.com. Retrieved March 8, 2024. They may have copied some from the Wikipdia page, but they had stores that were not otherwise available. I know where they came from, as I put them into the Wikipedia page, and some of them came from there. 7&6=thirteen (☎) 12:25, 10 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Apologies, this did not ping me and I just noticed it after reverting your change again. This is not a source, this is a simple copy of an older version of this article. If you put them on the page without a source, and another site copied the page, this is a WP:CIRCULAR source. I'm not sure how that makes any sense to you at all. Alchetron copies articles here verbatim; it's an open platform now as well, and is simply not a reliable source. I would invite you to start a discussion at WP:RSN if you feel that WP:MIRRORS and open wikis can now be used. Thanks. Sam Kuru (talk) 13:52, 10 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
No, it is not a "simple copy of an older version." I am the only one putting in the Michigan stores. That's been true for a long time. I do not know how the website compiled its information. You are right about the attribution on their page. Do you? Point me to the earlier version if you can, please. 7&6=thirteen (☎) 16:10, 10 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Certainly. Most likely around 2/19/17. That version includes addition of "Woodward & Lothrop", as does the mirror at Alchetron - including the ". Von Maur" typo added a few edits before. The articles line up exactly, with only minor scraping artifacts manifesting (the bullet indentation is lost when it was copied, as was the "other department stores" subheader. Sam Kuru (talk) 20:34, 10 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Whatever. The offending citation has been removed. And I improved the citations. Thank you and you're welcome. 7&6=thirteen (☎) 23:21, 13 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

KMart and Sears Roebuck as defunct

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f they exist, it ia no longer in the form of a bricks and mortar department store. That they may have died and were transmuted into something else (on a much smaller scale) doesn't make them not defunct. 7&6=thirteen (☎) 16:56, 15 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Here is the KMart reference.[1]
Here is the AI answer (without the links and references) from Google generated a few days ago:

The last Sears store in New York City closed on November 24, 2021. As of September 2024, there are nine Sears stores remaining, with eight in the mainland U.S. and one in Puerto Rico.

Here are some other key dates in the history of Sears:

2018: Sears filed for bankruptcy

2019: Eddie Lampert's hedge fund bought Sears out of bankruptcy and renamed its parent company Transformco

2022: Sears closed the last four Sears Hometown stores in Michigan

Sears is now focusing on e-commerce with its Sears Marketplace offering.

Hope that addresses your concern. Happy editing. 7&6=thirteen (☎) 13:47, 25 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The Good Housekeeping article you link has a misleading title, “there will be only one small, downsized Kmart store left in Miami, Florida, along with a few others scattered between Guam and the U.S. Virgin Islands.” If we exempt the small Kmart in Florida (although I’m not sure we should), that still leaves the stores in Guam and the U.S. Virgin Islands. Since those are part of the United States, Kmart should not be listed as defunct in the U.S.
I am not sure of the relevance of the “now focusing” line from Google A.I. unless the implication is that they’re only focusing on e-commerce. For what it’s worth, Sears Marketplace has been around for almost 15 years.
As of July, Sears itself had 10 brick and mortar stores so I think is hard to argue they are defunct. Tfkalk (talk) 14:15, 25 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
"The Sears bankruptcy reorganization failed to stop the downward spiral. Since the desperate financial move, Sears has closed all but about a handful of its stores and cut about 250,000 jobs." from the Desert Sun article you are relying upon. They are not even a shadow of their former identity. We could footnote their 'existence', but it is barely there. 7&6=thirteen (☎) 14:45, 25 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Perhaps I was not clear in my argument, but I'm not entirely sure what you're arguing in favor of. Your initial post said " That they may have died and were transmuted into something else (on a much smaller scale) doesn't make them not defunct" which I fully agree with. Then in your reply, you say " We could footnote their 'existence', but it is barely there." Either way, we should not include them as defunct. You are either defunct or you or not and as we've both commented, they have stores (albeit few) so they are not defunct.
I will be curious if there are any dissenting opinions (presuming I have accurately understood your views) before this closes Tfkalk (talk) 23:43, 25 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
As an addendum and to be explicit, I am opposed to any sort of "But a few still exist" footnotes. It would only add to confusion since it means that a store is not actually defunct, despite its inclusion in the list. Tfkalk (talk) 23:45, 25 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Sears doesn't even use the name any longer. "Sears Marketplace" is not Sears Roebuck as commonly understood.
And that there might be one or a few stores somewhere (not necessarily in the mainland U.S.) doesn't mean that they aren't defunct here. 7&6=thirteen (☎) 14:41, 27 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Something is either defunct or it is not. The article does not distinguish between the mainland versus not or states versus territories (and indeed, Puerto Rico is part of this article). Sears Roebuck still has a couple physical stores so it is not defunct. Kmart still has stores part of the United States of America (whether or not they are mainland or not) so it is not defunct.
As evidence:
https://www.cnn.com/2023/12/10/business/sears-burbank-store-revived-retailer-holidays/index.html
https://www.facebook.com/KmartGuam7705/
Whether or not you recognize that they are a shadow of themselves is irrelevant. This article has a clear definition of "defunct" stores and as long as Sears or Kmart have stores, they are not defunct. Tfkalk (talk) 03:11, 29 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  1. ^ Millar, Laura (October 18, 2024). "Kmart Is Set to Close Its Last Full-Size Store in the United States". Good Housekeeping. Retrieved November 15, 2024. Shoppers are mourning the loss of the flashing blue light.
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