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Requested move

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The following discussion is an archived discussion of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Birds of the Faroe Islands → List of birds of the Faroe Islands — To conform to the Naming Conventions. —Zvar 18:31, 17 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Survey

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Feel free to state your position on the renaming proposal by beginning a new line in this section with *'''Support''' or *'''Oppose''', then sign your comment with ~~~~. Since polling is not a substitute for discussion, please explain your reasons, taking into account Wikipedia's naming conventions.
  • Oppose - the article is not just the list, it is an article on birds with an appended list (though admittedly the list takes up most of the article). There is certainly scope for expanding the article. Maybe one solution, if the length of the list makes the article unbalanced, is to fork the article by moving just the list itself to the proposed new title while leaving the rest of the article in situ. Maias 07:05, 18 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Strong support Naming conventions; the majority of the article is a list, so that's where it belongs. -Justin (koavf)·T·C·M 21:52, 20 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

It was requested that this article be renamed but there was no consensus for it be moved. --Stemonitis 21:04, 22 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

The following discussion is an archived discussion of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the proposal was support for move--Fuhghettaboutit (talk) 02:36, 27 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Requested move (2)

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Survey

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Feel free to state your position on the renaming proposal by beginning a new line in this section with *'''Support''' or *'''Oppose''', then sign your comment with ~~~~. Since polling is not a substitute for discussion, please explain your reasons, taking into account Wikipedia's naming conventions.
  • Support, I suppose, to bring it into line with comparable lists - and withdrawal of previous objection. Maias (talk)!~
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.
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Pheasants, grous, and allies

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It is true that willow ptarmigan and rock ptarmigan were tried introduced (several times), but it has consistently failed for both species. They were certainly not extirpated (meaning intended and targeted destruction), they simply died out. It is misleading to only state "Introduced", as most people will think they are still present in the Faroes. A published reference can be found in Søren Sørensen and Jens-Kjeld Jensen "Færøernes fugle: Fakta og Tal [Bird of the Faroe Islands: Facts and numbers]", 2015, ISBN:9789991877068.

With regard to black grouse, it is and always been non-existent in the Faroe Islands (at least in historical times). As a typical forest bird, it would also have difficulties in surviving in a place without forests (except for very small areas of planted trees). I do not know of any sources that indicate that introduction has been attempted. VillusFarus (talk) 14:17, 14 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

@VillusFarus: If they are not reported as present or historical in reliable sources, what you say makes sense to me. I don't see any reason for the above birds to be on the list. There might be a note in the text about introduced species that have since died out. Thanks, welcome to Wikipedia and I hope to see you around. SchreiberBike | ⌨  19:37, 14 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Capitalization of Faroese bird names

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Wikipedia style, per MOS:LIFE, generally uses lower case for species common names in the middle of a sentence. The names in Faroese should be appropriately capitalized for that language. I can't find a source on how proper adjectives are capitalized in Faroese. Does anyone watching this page know? Icelandic, which has a lot in common with Faroese does not seem to capitalize proper adjectives from what I've found. Thank you, SchreiberBike | ⌨  22:04, 27 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@SchreiberBike - they're capitalised in the official list (including mentions within text sentences). Decapitalising them unilaterally strikes me as original research and should not be done. - MPF (talk) 14:17, 21 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@MPF: Respectfully, I disagree based on MOS:LIFE. Regarding style issues such as capitalization, Wikipedia follows Wikipedia's style. Many "official lists" in English also capitalize bird names, but we don't follow those. I do worry that I put some Faroese proper names in lower case and I hope we can fix any of those. SchreiberBike | ⌨  14:26, 21 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
That's exactly the problem - you don't, and can't easily, know the etymology of each and every Faroese bird name, as to whether it should or should not be capitalised under these arcane English etymology-derived capitalisation "rules". So we should follow the source reference exactly as it gives, including capitalisation. - MPF (talk) 14:57, 21 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Wikipedia style is to not capitalize species common names except when they incorporate proper nouns. The names in Faroese should be capitalized the same way, except that many languages do not capitalize proper adjectives like English does. As I wrote above, I could not find a reliable source on how Faroese capitalizes proper adjectives. If we left the names all capitalized, there would be hundreds of errors in the list. If we make them all lower case, there may be a few errors. A few seems to be better than many. SchreiberBike | ⌨  15:39, 21 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@SchreiberBike: Why should Faroese names be capitalised in the same way as English? The evidence that we have – the source list – is that Faroese bird names are capitalised. If we leave all the names capitalised, then we know they are correct as per the cited reference. If you change any of them to lower case, they may result in errors. Why are you automatically assuming that the source list is wrong about their own language? - MPF (talk) 10:07, 24 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@MPF: How does this sound? I will use Faroese Wikipedia and other online sources to see how these words are capitalized in sentences. Fuglar í Føroyum will help, as will Google Translate, but neither are a sure thing as I don't know what the style is for capitalization of species common names on Faroese Wikipedia and as a fairly small language, I don't expect Google Translate to be very helpful. I've done that once before for List of butterflies of Turkey. In Turkish proper adjectives are capitalized like in English, so in that language, a fair number of the words were capitalized. I will not capitalize like lists, databases or specialized sources do. Bird lists in English usually capitalize species common names, as do butterfly lists, etc., but they are not typically capitalized when used in a sentence, except in specialist publications. SchreiberBike | ⌨  22:58, 24 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@MPF: I've checked the first 52 names and the last 55, so 107 of the 333 Faroese names have been checked. I've found none which clearly should have been capitalized. I'm sure about 105 not being capitalized mid-sentence in Faroese. There are two for which I could not find an example:
  • indiatítlingur seems to translate as Indian pipit. Indian used in Faroese is not capitalized when used as an adjective, but I've not been able to find an example of india as an adjective. So that one I can not be sure of.
  • sibiriastólpa - Sibiria is capitalized when naming the Russian region we call Siberia. Other geographic names are not capitalized when used as adjectives, but I've not found an example where sibiria is used that way, so probably that should be lower case, but I can't be sure.
This is boring and unrewarding work and I don't see much of a point in checking the remaining two-thirds. If there are other examples you think might be worth checking, please propose them. SchreiberBike | ⌨  00:04, 3 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@SchreiberBike It is indeed boring and unrewarding work! Sorting species name capitalisation by these ridiculous and intractable etymology-based "rules" is exactly as you say, and extraordinarily complex, and for no reward. It's bad enough in English, or in a related and relatively similarly structured language like Faeroese. It's far worse yet with unrelated languages, be it Māori, or Algonquin, or Pitjantjatjara . . . So why are you bothering doing it? You have just made, very well, the case for consistent full capitalisation, which is scientifically fully predictable, independent of etymological variables, and easy to do. And looks much neater in a list, too. It's one of the reasons why it is so widely, and increasingly, done. And also, species names of birds are just as much proper names as e.g. species of cars, or species of language for that matter, and those do get capitalised. Why the difference?? - MPF (talk) 18:12, 3 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@MPF: Back in 2014 Wikipedia made a decision - see WP:BIRDCON. That is now expressed at MOS:LIFE. If you want to change that, bring it up at Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style. I will argue against it there, but I'm not up for a discussion every time it comes up. I'm just trying to help Wikipedia follow its stated style. SchreiberBike | ⌨  23:34, 3 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
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