Talk:List of Christian hip-hop artists/Archive 1

Archive 1

Should recent converts be listed in separate section?

I'm wondering if perhaps in this list we should be noting the distinction between rappers who have started out and have always been Christian, and rappers who recently converted to Christianity but were secular rappers before, such as DMX and Mase. -- œ^™ 18:04, 26 June 2009 (UTC)

I took a great deal of time and effort to put in the most notable and influential Christian rap and hip hop groups of all time complete with lists and the entire series of updates was removed as not notable, which is absurd. P.I.D. is not notable? THEY WERE THE FIRST CHRISTIAN RAP GROUP WITH AN ENTIRE CATALOGUE OF SONGS! They are extremely notable, if only because for years, they were one of the only groups mentioned when any media outlet brought up the idea of Christian rap.

Seriously... there are groups and artists in this list I've never even heard of, but taking the people I put in off the list is comparible to removing the Beatles from a list of classic rock bands due to their not being notable but leaving up that local rock band you were friends with in high school.

-206.24.49.1 (talk) 05:31, 8 December 2009 (UTC)

Tunnel Rats

The Tunnel Rats link leads to an article about the Vietnam soldiers (who, by the way, the TR crew were named after) and not an article about the underground, late-90s/early 2000s Christian rap group. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.27.43.232 (talk) 21:56, 16 December 2011 (UTC)

Removed rappers

If I might correct you on a couple of things, one GeeDA is a christian rapper, two, so is D-Maub, three so is lil Prophet, four, V. Rose has done girl rap! thank you for trying to help me out, but I listen to christian hip hop on a daily basis, and I know many many more that are not on that list as well, they just didn't all show up, oh yeah, DA' T.R.U.T.H. as well. so IDK why you last edited my entry on it! (Supermindj (talk) 12:43, 28 January 2012 (UTC))

I know that they're Christian rappers, the problem is that they don't have articles. This list doesn't include artists without articles. In fact, none of the Christian artist lists do. If you want to create an article for them, see WP:BAND and WP:GNG for notability guidelines to see if they qualify for an article. If they meet the guidelines, feel free to create articles for them. For your first article, you might want to create it in your name space. I can help you with that if you want. --Walter Görlitz (talk) 17:10, 28 January 2012 (UTC)

Oh, and "Christian" is always capitalized. --Walter Görlitz (talk) 17:11, 28 January 2012 (UTC)

Sense of the existence of this list

Does it make sense to exist list like this? I think we should make a category Category:Christians rappers (or similar name) and add it to the every Christian rapper. What do you think about it? Tashivana (talk) 18:52, 8 August 2012 (UTC)

It makes a great deal of sense. There are other lists and with the suggestion above, where we would classify the artists, it will add detail. --Walter Görlitz (talk) 19:07, 8 August 2012 (UTC)

II know we have a lot of list like this, but is there any difference between this list and a category? It only shows a Christians rapper and nothing more :) Tashivana (talk) 03:27, 9 August 2012 (UTC)

Please read what I wrote. --Walter Görlitz (talk) 04:01, 9 August 2012 (UTC)

Not an accurate, all-inclusive list

A lot of these artists are Christians and perform hip-hop, but don't do Christian hip-hop. There is a difference, by the way. Contrary to what most idiots think. The definition at the top of the page needs to be rewritten and we need more Christian hip-hop artists and less hip-hop artists who are Christians. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.27.43.232 (talk) 18:19, 8 August 2012 (UTC)

Christians who perform hip hop is what this list is about. If you read my suggestion above, we could distinguish the two groups you mention. Oh, and it's "fewer" not "less". --Walter Görlitz (talk) 18:30, 8 August 2012 (UTC)

Okay, that works. When can we start? :D

We also need more articles about Christian rappers. This is barely any and a lot I've never heard of. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.27.43.232 (talk) 18:21, 8 August 2012 (UTC)

If they meet WP:BAND then they should certainly have articles. If they don't, they shouldn't. --Walter Görlitz (talk) 18:30, 8 August 2012 (UTC)

I can name 6 rappers or groups OFF THE TOP OF MY HEAD that meet that that don't have articles. PRo, Playdough, Sintax.the.Terrific, Cannon, Andy Mineo, Tunnel Rats

The category should be created in addition to the list. This is an area where redundancy is good, as there are advantages and disadvantages to both lists and categories.--¿3family6 _contribs 02:30, 10 August 2012 (UTC)

Proposed solution

I think I may have a solution to this and other Christian music lists. We could convert the nice, clean list to an alphabetical table much like the comparison of issue-tracking systems and other similar lists. We could add columns such as "At least one member is Christian" or "Christian member", "Christian themes in music", "Label" or "Signed to Christian Label", and most importantly, a references column. We could also have years active or other columns. Comments? Suggestions? So for Lil Wayne, under the profession column we could have a value of "known to read scripture and pray" while for others we could have the standard Yes, No, and Unknown templates. This would appease many and clearly distinguish those marginally added to meet Wikipedia's standard of inclusion from those who would actually be able to stand for a Dove award. --18:14, 1 August 2012 (UTC)

Artist/Band	Years active	Sub-genre(s)	Christian lyrics	Christian affiliation	Refs
116 Clique	2005-present	Un­known	Yes	Un­known
The Ambassador (William Branch)	1991-present	Un­known	Yes	Un­known
D-Boy Danny Rodriguez	1989-1990	—	Yes	Un­known
dc Talk	1987–2001	rock	Yes	Un­known
Lil Wayne	1992–present	Un­known	No	Un­known
tobyMac	1987–present	Christian rock, Christian pop	Yes	Un­known
Stephen Wiley	1985–1991	—	Yes	Un­known

There are currently 70 artists in the list and this is a sample of 7 but should give you an idea of what the list can do and a few columns that could be used. Should these columns be kept? Should we add more columns? If so, which? --Walter Görlitz (talk) 05:59, 9 August 2012 (UTC)

My only concern is original research. As long as each parameter has sourced content, I like the idea. For instance, if there is a source saying that Lil' Wayne doesn't have Christian lyrics, then it should be good (considering that it's Lil' Wanye, it shouldn't be that hard). With the subgenres, maybe make it clear that it includes non-hip-hop styles.--¿3family6 _contribs 14:08, 9 August 2012 (UTC)

P.S. If there is no verified subgenre, I would replace "Unknown" with "NA".--¿3family6 _contribs 14:11, 9 August 2012 (UTC)

The columns are just suggestions. There could be a "Type of hip hop" column as well.

The primary goal was to clearly indicate that Lil Wayne is not part of the Christian music industry and has a tenuous profession of faith. --Walter Görlitz (talk) 14:32, 9 August 2012 (UTC)

See my comment in the Lil Wayne section.--¿3family6 _contribs 02:31, 10 August 2012 (UTC)

Your comments above are what prompted me to come up with this idea. --Walter Görlitz (talk) 05:27, 10 August 2012 (UTC)

refs. will not appear like this in the list.

Christians rapper

Hi, Why in the article List of Christian hip hop and rap artists we have to add only artist who've already been added to Wikipdia? Is it good solution? I'm askin' you because I know you're an expert :) Tashivana (talk) 19:57, 11 August 2012 (UTC)

Because of the WP:LIST indicates what type of lists may exists and this is an index of articles page presents an alphabetical list of articles related to the subject of the index. If you can find a different list that would apply, feel free to inform us. --Walter Görlitz (talk) 03:41, 12 August 2012 (UTC)

Adding edit notice

There are a number of edits made to this page that must be undone because the entries are either not added in alphabetical order or the subject is not notable. To that end, it would be ideal to add the following edit notice: {{editnotice | expiry = indefinite | id = 0 | header = Please note: | headerstyle = font-size: 130% | text = This list is sorted in [[:alphabetical order]]. Please familiarize yourself with how that works, particularly if adding individuals. Each list entry '''should have its own Wikipedia article''', or include a [[WP:CITE|citation]] to an [[Wikipedia:Independent sources|independent]], [[WP:V#Sources|reliable]] source that must '''demonstrate that the artist or group is [[WP:BAND|notable]].''' | textstyle = font-size: 110%; background: #ffeebb }} Thank you. Walter Görlitz (talk) 14:19, 9 April 2013 (UTC)

Not done: {{edit protected}} is not required for edits to unprotected pages, or pending changes protected pages. According to the page logs, this page has never been protected. --Redrose64 (talk) 17:00, 9 April 2013 (UTC)

I cannot edit the edit page. They are locked for admins only. I'm sorry you didn't know that. Walter Görlitz (talk) 17:14, 9 April 2013 (UTC)

See Wikipedia:Editnotice. Walter Görlitz (talk) 17:17, 9 April 2013 (UTC)

When a non admin attempts to create an edit notice they are told it is locked. For example the edit notice for this page is at http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?action=edit&preload=Template%3AEditnotice%2Fpreload&editintro=&summary=&nosummary=&minor=&title=Template%3AEditnotices%2FPage%2FList+of+Christian+hip+hop+and+rap+artists&create=Create and I am told: You do not have permission to edit this page, for the following reason:

This is the page notice for List of Christian hip hop and rap artists.

This editnotice can only be created or edited by administrators and accountcreators.

To request a change to the page, add {{tl:editprotected}} to the talk page, followed by a description of your request.

I added the Edit protected here and you stepped into it. Once again. Sorry you didn't know that. However, if you think you can add the edit notice, feel free to use the code I generated above to do so. Walter Görlitz (talk) 17:22, 9 April 2013 (UTC)

Oh sorry, it's an editnotice that you want. Those are not normally requested on article talk pages, but on the talk page for the (as yet non-existent) editnotice itself; see Wikipedia:Editnotice#How to request an editnotice if you are not an administrator. OK, Done --Redrose64 (talk) 19:02, 9 April 2013 (UTC)

Thanks. It's done now. Walter Görlitz (talk) 19:17, 9 April 2013 (UTC)

Christian artists

why aren't artists like d-maub and geeDA on here, also, V. Rose has done some good girl rap, lil Prophet is another one as well (Supermindj (talk) 12:25, 28 January 2012 (UTC)) A lot of these Artists listed are not even Christian artists or rap artists. Please consider before adding an artist.

Which artists aren't Christian or rap artists? You removed a lot of bands like dcTalk and bands who won in Christian Rap/Hip Hop artists, you even removed a rapping priest. What constitutes a Christian artist differs from person to person. Most of the Christian music lists use the definition from the Encyclopedia of Contemporary Christian Music (2002) defines CCM as "music that appeals to self-identified fans of contemporary Christian music on account of a perceived connection to what they regard as Christianity". That makes the potential list very broad. If you have concerns about specific entries, why not list them here with your reasons why they should not be on the list and editors can comment on why they should be kept in the list. --Walter Görlitz (talk) 20:16, 20 April 2011 (UTC)

In all there were actually three or possibly four real problems: E.E.S. was not a Christian band; New Breed is a Christian hip hop band but the link was to a disambiguation page and the band does not have an article; Wizdm is a redirect page to another listed band. The Tribe is a valid entry since they do include rap in several songs, but it's not listed on the article and without a reference, would be difficult to support. (They happen to be one of my favourite bands from the 90s too, but that's not really relevant). --Walter Görlitz (talk) 20:21, 20 April 2011 (UTC)

Alright, good point...but who the heck is Stan Fortuna??? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Spideyrocks28 (talk • contribs) 20:25, 20 April 2011 (UTC)

Stan Fortuna is a priest. Pretty interesting article about the guy actually. --Walter Görlitz (talk) 20:27, 20 April 2011 (UTC)

One more comment. You may want to look at list of Christian metal bands and list of Christian punk bands. You'll see that, due to controversy, every entry has a reference. Some have multiple references. That's not inappropriate for a list, but it is cumbersome. If you insist, the same can be done for these bands and artists to meet your objections, but you haven't really listed any substantial objections yet. --Walter Görlitz (talk) 20:27, 20 April 2011 (UTC)

Alright, thanks — Preceding unsigned comment added by Spideyrocks28 (talk • contribs) 20:29, 20 April 2011 (UTC)

WP:LIST explains how lists should be created. One important key, list entries must have an article entry. --Walter Görlitz (talk) 20:59, 20 April 2011 (UTC)

Lil Wayne is NOT a born-again Christian rapper, as well as many others on this list!!!!!!!! — Preceding unsigned comment added by Spideyrocks28 (talk • contribs)

Nonesense. Lil Wayne is a practising Christian http://www.nytimes.com/2008/02/26/arts/music/26wayn.html Just because he's not in the Christian music industry does not exclude him from this list, just like others on the list. --Walter Görlitz (talk) 03:14, 26 May 2011 (UTC)

Just because he reads his Bible doesn't mean anything. Listen to his lyrics in his songs and compare them to Lecrae or Trip Lee. He is not acting as a Christian and cusses in every line of his songs...doesn't sound Christian to me. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Spideyrocks28 (talk • contribs) 02:53, 27 May 2011 (UTC)

Just because you think his lyrics are not "Christian" doesn't mean a thing. It's what we call original research. Feel free to find a source that says he's not a Christian. You can add it to his article in the appropriate section and then you can claim it here. This is one of those things where Wikipedia isn't trying to convey the truth, but referenced facts. --Walter Görlitz (talk) 03:25, 27 May 2011 (UTC)

Lil Wayne is NOT a Christian rapper. He is a rapper who claims to be a Christian, but that is not for any of us to judge. His music glorifies explicit content, such as sex, money, and drugs, and not that of God. Even if he is a practicing Christian and he reads his Bible, he does not display that through his music. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.234.156.111 (talk) 20:11, 17 June 2011 (UTC)

Can you prove that he's not a Christian? You are describing an outward appearance of what a Christian says and does, but that is only one way to interpret what a Christian is. There are many Christian artists who don't display their faith through their music, so you will have to find a different approach to explaining why he's not a Christian rapper because in its simplest form, a Christian musician of any kind is a person who self-professes Christianity and is a musician. --Walter Görlitz (talk) 20:19, 17 June 2011 (UTC)

The article is called "List of Christian hip hop and rap artists" not "list of rappers that are Christians." Just saying that Lil Wayne claims to be a Christian and also raps doesn’t make him a Christian rapper(someone who raps about God) It just makes him a rapper that claims to be a Christian. If going to church and reading your Bible makes you a Christian then me standing in a garage and holding a steering wheel makes me a car. Any one can read a Bible. An atheist can read a Bible but that doesn’t make them a Christian it just means they have the ability to read. I go to school with a lot of people that believe in God but are they Christians? No not really, do they go to church? no. Do they cuss and talk about sex and how much beer they drunk and how much weed they smoked at a party they went to last night? Yes they sure do. There is a difference in someone who believes in God and someone who is a Christian. A person that works at a stripper club might believe in God but that doesn’t make them a Christian. Someone who goes to a bar every night might believe in God ,but just saying that you believe in God doesn’t make you a Christian it just means you believe in God. So is Lil Wayne a Christian rapper? No. Is he a rapper that is a Christian? well he claims to be but his actions say other wise. He kind of is just someone that believes in God cause just the fact that you say your a Christian doesn’t make you a Christian. I can say I’m an alligator all I want to but I will never be one. His actions speak other wise cause any self respecting Christian wouldn’t talk or act the way he dose. Everyone makes mistakes but he doesn’t accidentally cuss in his raps he dose it on purpose and that’s not something a Christian would do. So, no he is not a Christian rapper he is just a rapper that claims he is a "Christian" and I say that very lightly. And no this isn’t just my option cause it is confirmed in the way that he talks in his raps and the words that he uses that makes it a fact. 173.247.27.137 (talk) 22:14, 19 July 2011 (UTC)Double A...ron

Being a Christian and a rapper does make you a Christian rapper. That's the definition on which we're working anyhow. It's also the definition used on several other Christian genre lists. --Walter Görlitz (talk) 23:00, 19 July 2011 (UTC)

Then if that be it the case then if someone is a plumber and they're also a Christian does that make them a Christian plumber?......"Unclogging toilets for Jesus" um not quite — Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.247.27.137 (talk) 23:03, 20 July 2011 (UTC)

I suppose it does. However that's not an issue on Wikipedia as we don't have a list of Christian plumbers nor do we publicize it. The problem that you're really facing is that the term Christian is too broad. Someone can call themselves a Christian and not behave the way someone else who calls themselves a Christian agrees with. In short, you cannot set the standards for inclusion in a religion based simply on behaviour. I know that many would like to though, myself included.

You are required to sign your posts and not remove information added by bots to sign your posts for you. --Walter Görlitz (talk) 00:02, 21 July 2011 (UTC)

Someone give my one good reason that lil' Wayne should be on there. He may be a "Christian" [yes, put in quotes for a good reason. Believing, which I doubt he really does, in God does not make you a "Christian"], but this page is, among other things referring to CHRISTIAN RAPPERS. People who's faith is expressed in their lyrics. I don't know about you, but unless I'm terribly mislead, I don't think Christianity is expressed in his music. Unless you count glorifying drugs, violence, and sex in your music as being Christian. There may be one or two references to God or Jesus, but that doesn't make a difference. He's no Christian rapper. He should be taken off of there and the person who put him on there should be kicked off Wikipedia, because they obviously have no idea what their talking about. Thank you. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.27.43.232 (talk) 15:19, 27 October 2011 (UTC)

Please read above. It's been explained. --Walter Görlitz (talk) 15:24, 27 October 2011 (UTC)

Already read it, thanks. And as I said, he may be a Christian, but he's not a Christian RAPPER. That's what this page is about, right? Just because he may be Christian and he raps doesn't mean he's a Christian Rapper. I don't see what's so hard about this. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.27.43.232 (talk) 23:13, 27 October 2011 (UTC)

If you read it, you didn't understand it. Yes, just because he's a Christian means he's a Christian Rapper. --Walter Görlitz (talk) 00:29, 28 October 2011 (UTC)

OK, so I conclude you have Lil wayne on there just to annoy other people. You obviously know he's not a Christian rapper, and he's not. You're just using an interpretation of "Christian Rapper" "prove" he should be there. There's no reason for him to be there, and you know it. People looking for Christian Rappers are obviously not looking for lil wayne. You just have it on there to annoy and maybe even offend Christian rap fans. Now take him off. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.27.43.232 (talk) 23:16, 30 October 2011 (UTC)

According to your "interpretation" of what a Christian rapper is, he's not. However you're not the one who defines it. The Encyclopedia of Contemporary Christian Music (2002) defines Christian music more losely and includes "a perceived connection to what they regard as Christianity" as part of the definition. So while you may have a more stringent definition of the genre, not all do. For the sake of Wikipedia, we'll use the more inclusive definition. --Walter Görlitz (talk) 23:50, 30 October 2011 (UTC)

lil wayne is not a Christian. Believing in God is not being a Christian. Trusting in God and behaving in a Christlike way is being a Christian. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.27.43.232 (talk) 21:38, 20 December 2011 (UTC)

The argument has been made before and rejected. It depends on a narrow view of what Christianity is and is not. Catholics are Christians too. --Walter Görlitz (talk) 23:32, 20 December 2011 (UTC)

Look, does anyone except you (who obviously has no idea what the heck Christian rap or a Christian rapper is) think lil wayne is a Christian rapper? I'll tell you again. Being a Christian does not make you a Christian rapper. It's what's in your music and how you convey the message of Christianity that makes you a Christian rapper. Any Christian rap fan or Christian rapper (except maybe Freddie Bruno) will agree. Now stop abusing Christian hip hop by screwing up all the articles and this list and take him off. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.27.43.232 (talk) 15:05, 21 December 2011 (UTC)

I was an exclusively Christian music DJ from 1982 through to 2000. I was around when Christian rap started. I don't think that Lil Wayne is a good example of a Christian rapper but based on a very narrow definition of Christian rap he should be included. --Walter Görlitz (talk) 16:29, 21 December 2011 (UTC)

Why didn't you say that earlier? Now I have respect for you. Thank you for saying that. And, I guess, you're right about the narrow definition. I thought you were some idiot from the secular scene who wanted to corrupt CHH. Sorry for my misjudgment. Thank you again. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.27.43.232 (talk) 17:00, 21 December 2011 (UTC)

Because it's not supposed to be about the editors but about referenced material. It's a silly rule. You should see what some of the lists I monitor are like because of a silly reference. You just have to understand the setting (the rules of Wikipedia) to understand the content sometimes. --Walter Görlitz (talk) 17:35, 21 December 2011 (UTC)

LIL WAYNE is no more christian than eminem, they may say they are christians, but their music is very worldly, and talks about sex, and wanting to do women, this is not christian at all! When lecrae talks about sex, he says that it should be saved for marriage, and that it is a sin to do it outside of marriage! there are no christian morals in his music! — Preceding unsigned comment added by Supermindj (talk • contribs) 02:13, 28 January 2012 (UTC)

Please read the information above. I removed your recent additions. Some were just silly (linking "DC Talk" when dcTalk was listed just below) , the link to JR is a disambiguation page not an article about a Christian rap artist, and the rest were redlinks. --Walter Görlitz (talk) 02:26, 28 January 2012 (UTC)

Lil wayne is in no way a christian rapper. He was probaly high when he said he was a christian. He never should be listed here, ven if he is a christian, he doesnt rap about christian things, and that is what christian rap is about! He should be removed ASAP, because it is an annoyance and disrespect to the real christian rappers out there. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 97.102.81.32 (talk) 17:02, 11 February 2012 (UTC)

"Probably" isn't a word that should be used on Wikipedia. Please take the time to read the responses above and you'll see that your question has been answered many, many times. --Walter Görlitz (talk) 17:30, 11 February 2012 (UTC)

The only reason I'm commenting here is because I myself came to the page looking for christian rap. It is extremely misleading to put lil wayne on this list. People that are looking for rap that expresses the fundamentals of Christ would be disappointed to hear lil wayne. If some one, for example, were to see his name, and then search for him on youtube, they would be instantly upset seeing that lil wayne's music does not glorify christ, but glorifies him self. This list should only contain those musicians who are rapping about Christ, not about sex, drugs, and fame. Hope this helps. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Yehudah1984 (talk • contribs) 07:26, 14 March 2012 (UTC)

Your opinion is not unique, but unfortunately, not the one used on this list. Feel free to read the reasons already presented. --Walter Görlitz (talk) 13:46, 14 March 2012 (UTC)

Lil Wayne glorifies all that the bible tells you not too. This listing is incredibly offensive to ANYONE who knows whats going on in the world. I can call myself a jewish rapper just because I love studying legit Hebrew text, is what you seem to be getting at. Wayne probably added himself so that while he's blowing the little horn, people will defend him with responses like..."That nigga is a christian, that nigga worships jesus along with [insert random idolatry here]" End times are coming and because of sites like wikipedia NOBODY is going to know what to do. Enjoy your brimstone. SWAG! :) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.129.34.51 (talk • contribs) 20:32 14 July 2012 (UTC)

Guys, please. Kanye West just came out saying he is Christian, and he is obviously not. To be a Christian, you have to act the part. They're all fakers. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.233.96.82 (talk) 15:41, 5 September 2013 (UTC)

I'm sorry, who are you to judge Mr. West and whether he is currently a Christian or not? Your opinion of what does and does not constitute a Christian is not a valid line in the sand. Walter Görlitz (talk) 15:59, 5 September 2013 (UTC)

Artists without links

Can we put up rappers/artists without wikipedia links? cause this isn't covering a tenth of all the artists I know..... and can we put Braille under "B" please? The only reason his page isn't "Braille" is because there's already a page named that that refers to the language. People don't come looking for Bryan Winchester, They're looking for Braille. And Propaganda deserves a page. Could someone create a page for Propaganda the rapper? Reference links included below. http://www.hhhdb.com/index.php?id=426 http://www.jesusfreakhideout.com/artists/Propaganda.asp http://humblebeast.com/artists/propaganda/ http://www.rapzilla.com/rz/component/muscol/P/19-propaganda http://www.rapzilla.com/rz/component/muscol/T/60-tunnel-rats http://www.hhhdb.com/index.php?id=239 Thanks a lot. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.27.43.232 (talk) 16:48, 28 November 2011 (UTC)

Lists like this should not be a link farm pointing to artists MySpace or Facebook pages. They should list "important" artists. In Wikipedia terms, an important artist (or notable artist, see WP:BAND) is one that has an article. We could list lots of people who have done concerts or released a home tape (in the 80s) or made downloads available (more current artists), but it wouldn't be encyclopedic. --Walter Görlitz (talk) 19:31, 7 December 2011 (UTC)

Well, I know a lot of artists like Scribbling Idiots (Illect Recordings, Scribblingidiots.com), Playdough (Indie, Iamplaydough.com), Propaganda, and a ton more who are "notable". If the goal of the page is to list ALL "notable" CHRISTIAN hip-hop and rap artists, then I think some without wikipedia pages should be included. Oh, and by the way, what's your reason for having Lil' Wayne there? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.27.43.232 (talk) 22:58, 15 December 2011 (UTC)

Don't get hung-up on the term notable. Understand it it terms of Wikipedia's notability guidelines. See WP:BAND for what constitutes a notable musician or band.

The discussion related to Lil' Wayne is above. Feel free to read it. --Walter Görlitz (talk) 23:03, 15 December 2011 (UTC)

There are a few artists who meet the notable criteria that I have attempted to add to the list in the past only to see them promptly removed. Ones is PRo of reflection music group and reach records whose latest album was in the top 10 on itunes charts when it was released. Another is Gideonz Army who has had videos on BET. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 151.159.20.7 (talk) 06:48, 5 February 2012 (UTC)

If they have articles, they meet the notability criteria. They may still meet the criteria and don't yet have an article feel free to make one. However, the criteria for inclusion on this list is that the artist has an article. --Walter Görlitz (talk) 07:51, 5 February 2012 (UTC)

The BIBLE is very clear. The true followers of Jesus Christ should have the fruits that comes from having a relationship with Him. The bible is also very clear the what our hearts are full of our mouths will flow over with. The bible also clearly states (Ps19:14) that what comes out of our mouths should be pleasing to God. It also states that "The lips of the righteous know what is acceptable, but the mouth of the wicked, what is perverse." Proverbs 10:32). Do a web search and surprise yourself with what the BIBLE has to say about righteousness, holiness, mouth, lips, tounge. If it is not measured in accordance to the BIBLE then what are you measuring it against? If you don't stand for something you will fall for anything... — Preceding unsigned comment added by 27.38.224.101 (talk) 11:21, 13 May 2012 (UTC)

I completely agree with you here, and I'm sure Walter completely agrees. But Wikipedia does not run on what what we say, but what reliable sources say. Most Catholics aren't Christian either, but I'm not going to go and remove them all from Christian lists. Li'l Wayne has been called a Christian in mainstream, reliable publications. His lifestyle doesn't fit that description, but on Wikipedia that judgement is original research on our part unless a reliable source also says so.--¿3family6 _contribs 12:09, 13 May 2012 (UTC)

I came to this page looking for christian rappers, and the one name that threw me off was Lil Wayne,how dare you for placing his name on this list comparing him to great christian rappers such as Lecrae and 116 clique. The term Christianity is not a loose statement sir, it defines a person with morals, beliefs, and overall actions that exemplify God. For a man who says he was a dj rapper lets for instance say you were at a church playing songs would you play lil wayne in the church and expect everyone to start praising God by listening to his music, I believe not sir. There are many people who post on here saying the same thing that Lil wayne is not a Christian rapper but a secular rapper. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 138.163.160.42 (talk) 00:27, 23 August 2012 (UTC)

Good Afternoon, this morning I attempted to get "Unity Klan" on the list of Christian hip hop and Rap artists. I realize I didn't follow the established procedure. My reference is a GospelFlava.com interview with Big J. of Unity Klan and the link is here: Is this sufficient to get Unity Klan listed? I originally intended to get Big J. listed as his solo effort "Fibre Optix" in 2001 was an excellent example of Christian Rapping but then I discovered that he was part of a larger group, "Unity Klan", including "Jaz" Jasmine and Danny, both good Christian rappers on their own. So, advice? Comments? Please?Smash591 (talk) 20:50, 18 September 2013 (UTC)

Time is relative. You don't know if editors are in Australia, South Africa, Ireland, Newfoundland or California.

From http://www.gospelflava.com/onlinebio.html it doesn't appear to be a reliable source. However, you could ask at the reliable sources noticeboard. In short, as the edit notice states,

Each list entry should have its own Wikipedia article, or include a citation to an independent, reliable source that must demonstrate that the artist or group is notable.

Really, the last one is the most important, which starts, "the subject of multiple, non-trivial, published works appearing in sources that are reliable, not self-published, and are independent from the musician or ensemble itself". This is one source not multiple. The source is non-trivial but it's not clear if the source is reliable (based on that criteria).

In short, the real test is can the entry stand as its own article? If it can, we should be creating the article and linking to it.

As a DJ in the 90s, I don't recall having heard of either Big J. or Unity Klan, so it's a good thing that I'm not a reliable source. Walter Görlitz (talk) 23:05, 18 September 2013 (UTC)

Another Missing Christian Rap Artist

This list is compiled of a lot of Christian acts in the music industry. However, this article is missing a key Christian rap artist. Rhema Soul has proven themselves to be notable Christian Hip Hop artist in the music industry.

• "Rhema Soul". Billboard.com. Retrieved November 30, 2014.
• "Rhema Soul Awards". Allmusic. Allmusic. Retrieved November 30, 2014.

This list is compiled of a lot of Christian acts in the music industry. However, this article is missing a key Christian rap artist. Rhema Soul has proven themselves to be notable Christian Hip Hop artist in the music industry. Their album "Red" reached 24 on the Top Gospel Album Billboard in 2012.— Preceding unsigned comment added by Graceking123 (talk • contribs) 15:39, 30 November 2014 (UTC)

I you feel that they meet WP:MUSICBIO, feel free to start an article on them, however, in the past few weeks the "awards" criteria has been clarified and it's no longer sufficient to simply have earned an award, you still have to meet WP:GNG. It's assumed that earning an award or achieving chart success, etc., will result in sufficient publicity. Walter Görlitz (talk) 15:51, 30 November 2014 (UTC)

Rhema Soul has enough coverage to at least start an article, and probably reach C or B class. I just do not have time right now to create an article for them. There are many more CHH artists who need articles, but we don't have editors to create them. I've considered overseeing a task-force or drive to create CHH related articles and develop the articles already on Wikipedia, as most existing articles are in dire shape and need attention. In a month or two, when I have time to do so, I might pitch this idea.--¿3family6 _contribs 17:48, 30 November 2014 (UTC)

Lil Wayne

I know that it has been discussed, but in my opinion Lil Wayne doesn't represent a Christian hip-hop. For me a rapper who says that is a Christian should represent a Christian values. Lil Wayne doesn't do that and on the contrary he raps about sex, drugs etc. 194.117.241.30 (talk) 16:51, 22 May 2012 (UTC)

Yes it has been discussed. No one is suggesting he represents Christian hip-hop. Feel free to read the reasons for inclusion above since nothing has changed with your opinion. --Walter Görlitz (talk) 18:58, 22 May 2012 (UTC)

You've written "Being a Christian and a rapper does make you a Christian rapper". I totally disagree with this. For me "Christian rapper" is someone who raps about Jesus (God) and bears witness to the faith. Lil Wayne dosn't do that. If Lil Wayne has been added 'cus he is a Christian and rapper why we didn't add the group such as Wu-Tang Clan, Das EFX, Public Enemy etc. as a Muslim rappers? They say in their songs that they're a muslim and belleve in Allah. I know they've got category Members of the Nation of Gods and Earths, but they don't call "Members of the Nation of Gods and Earths" themselves. 194.117.241.30 (talk) 22:13, 22 May 2012 (UTC)

I can't speak to what constitutes a Muslim rapper. All I can do is indicate what some feel constitutes Christian musicians. That interpretation is broader than what many people feel comfortable with and it's not one I fully agree with either, but it's the definition used on Wikipedia. Match that with the included references and the entry must stay. --Walter Görlitz (talk) 22:46, 22 May 2012 (UTC)

Lil Wayne is in the illuminati so why is he part of this list since people in the illuminati don't believe or don't even worship Jesus?— Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.62.231.33 (talk • contribs) 20:04, 22 May 2012 (UTC)

Because of what has already been written above. --Walter Görlitz (talk) 22:46, 22 May 2012 (UTC)

And you might want to reference both of your statements, since the former statement (he's a member of the Illuminati) is an unconfirmed rumour and the latter (that the Illuminati "don't worship Jesus") is not necessarily consistent with their stated position. Unless you're a member of an exclusive denomination (such as Mennonite Brethren) where denominational membership prevents membership in any other group, there's nothing that would be mutually exclusive about faith and membership in this supposed body. --Walter Görlitz (talk) 22:58, 22 May 2012 (UTC)

If Lil Wayne is on this list, so why Tupac is not here? He was a Christian 194.117.241.30 (talk) 12:15, 23 May 2012 (UTC)

If you can provide a reliable source that backs that claim you may add him as well. --Walter Görlitz (talk) 14:07, 23 May 2012 (UTC)

Alright Walter I've seen some of your post and I find a lot of your responses to be very rude. At least be respectful to the people you respond to. And if you want to know what the illuminati has on the music industry, go on:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-iDq0Tdja4A — Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.62.231.33 (talk) 17:55, 24 May 2012 (UTC)

I don't see anywhere that Walter was rude. He was direct, but not insulting at all.--¿3family6 _contribs 18:04, 24 May 2012 (UTC)

I'm sorry if you perceived my responses as rude. They were meant to be factual.

I'm not interested in the subject. I didn't bring it up and it's not related to Christian hip-hop and rap artists in general and it doesn't appear to be related to specific artists on the list. --Walter Görlitz (talk) 18:44, 24 May 2012 (UTC)

I've looked at many post and I was wrong so I apologize. I looked at your point of view on why he's on the list and you have some decent points. He may not rap about Christ but he is a Christian then that's how he upholds himself. We as Christians may not agree with what he says or does but the list does say Christian hip hop and rap artist. Since he's a 'practicing' christian, then you can't deny that unless confirmed otherwise. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.62.231.33 (talk) 23:57, 24 May 2012 (UTC)

Revisit

I just read the references being used to support Lil Wayne, and I noticed that neither actually says "Lil Wayne is Christian". Is there another source somewhere that says that? Otherwise, I don't think these refs are enough to support his listing. Believing that Jesus is God's Son is not the only belief needed for Christianity. Second point: Even if a source says he is Christian, does that mean that he automatically performs Christian hip hop? In the past I would have said that in the broad sense of the term, yes, though I might personally disagree that he is Christian. But now, I'm thinking that equating the two could be original synthesis.--¿3family6 _contribs 02:25, 10 August 2012 (UTC)

Time to revisit again. The article currently reads:

Lil Wayne identifies as a [[Roman Catholic]]<ref>[http://www.complex.com/music/2013/01/40-things-you-didnt-know-about-lil-wayne/catholic#gallery He identifies as Roman Catholic. — 40 Things You Didn't Know About Lil Wayne | Complex<!-- Bot generated title -->]</ref> and reads the [[Bible]] regularly.<ref name="New York Times">{{cite news|url = http://www.nytimes.com/2008/02/26/arts/music/26wayn.html?_r=3&oref=slogin&oref=slogin|author=Kelefa Sanneh|title=Savoring a Moment in the Sun, Despite a Court Date|work=The New York Times|quote=Lil Wayne had three things to explain. No. 1, a religious confession: "I believe in God and his son, Jesus. Do you?" He interpreted the roar as an affirmative response. No. 2, a professional confession: He said he was nothing without the fans, adding, "Make some noise for what you created!" Noise was made. No. 3: Same as No. 2. More noise.|accessdate=December 2, 2010|date=February 26, 2008}}</ref><ref name="Weezy Thanx You" /> While playing in [[Newark Symphony Hall]], Lil Wayne professed his belief "in God and His son, Jesus."<ref name="New York Times"/> During his 2011 tour in Australia with Eminem, before beginning his bracket he proclaimed his belief in God.<ref>{{cite news|url=http://www.smh.com.au/entertainment/music/eminem-rap-inferno-lifts-roof-20111202-1oart.html |title=Eminem concert Australia | Melbourne | Sydney |publisher=[[Sydney Morning Herald]] |date=2011-12-02 |accessdate=2011-12-10}}</ref>

Last I checked, Catholics are Christian. He's definitely not part of the "industry" but that's just one view of what it means to be a Christian musician. 208.81.212.222 (talk) 20:07, 30 November 2015 (UTC)

Those sources do not say that he is "Christian hip hop." This list is for artists in the "industry," to use your terminology, not just any rapper who claims Christian beliefs.--3family6 (Talk to me | See what I have done) 22:32, 30 November 2015 (UTC)

No. This list is for "bands, MCs and artists that perform music under the category of hip hop, rap or their subgenres". I will be adding, with references shortly. Walter Görlitz (talk) 05:18, 1 December 2015 (UTC)

So, this is a list merely of hip hop artists that profess Christianity? I ran a search for Lil Wayne as "Christian hip hop," and couldn't find anything. I think to list him as explicitly "Christian hip hop" would constitute original research. Or should Dave Mustaine, Tom Araya, Bruce Dickinson, and others, be listed on the list of Christian metal artists?--3family6 (Talk to me | See what I have done) 19:05, 1 December 2015 (UTC)

I'm not sure why you are using extreme language here. It's not merely anything, but it is a list of Christians who perform hip-hop music. If you can't be bothered to actually look at the sources provided that's your problem. Walter Görlitz (talk) 06:36, 2 December 2015 (UTC)

I was not intending to use extreme language, and I apologize if I came across as harsh, as I did not intend to. My point is that none of those sources provided call Lil Wayne "Christian hip hop." I took time to compare the coverage of Lil Wayne with Yo Majesty, a controversial entry on this list, and in the case of Yo Majesty, plenty of sources explicitly call them "Christian hip hop." So far, I have not found a single reliable source calling Lil Wayne "Christian hip hop" or "Christian rap," and thus I argue that it would be original research to list him as such. I wouldn't put an artist on the list of political hip hop artists, even if their lyrics were explicitly political, unless I had a source calling them such. There are a few entries on this (the Christian hip hop) list that aren't perhaps directly called Christian hip hop (Street Symphony for one), but they are explicitly mentioned in context of Christian hip hop. I couldn't find any references to Lil Wayne in the context of working in Christian hip hop, either. If a reference can be found explicitly connecting him with Christian hip hop, then I'm not opposed to him being added. But until a source can be verified, it's original research.--3family6 (Talk to me | See what I have done) 16:01, 2 December 2015 (UTC)

They don't need to call him Christian hip hip/rap any more than the media need to call US Christian rock. I couldn't find any for that either. We have rappers who don't even want to wear that label—look at the edit wars on Lecrae and other articles. Similarly Switchfoot and other rock artists in the 2000s arguing against the label. That's why we made the lists members who have self-proclaimed as Christian and perform a style of music. It's not original research in that the list is of Christians who perform a style of music. That was Mark Allan Powell's position when creating the Encyclopedia of Contemporary Christian Music and it was carried onto Wikipedia when early editors, possibly Powell himself, copied liberally from the tome. If we're changing the definition for all the lists, fine, but it probably shouldn't be done piecemeal. Walter Görlitz (talk) 16:29, 2 December 2015 (UTC)

At least on the list of Christian metal artists, the thresh-hold was narrowed to artists that have been identified as Christian music and as metal music. I understand that Lecrae and Switchfoot and many others have tried to move past the label of "Christian music," and that should be, and is, mentioned in their respective articles. But they also, as has U2, been identified as Christian music, within the appropriate sub-genre. It's also fine if authors like Powell broaden the definition of Christian music to music performed by Christians. But, I think it is original research to then as Wikipedia editors take Powell's stance and apply the definition of Christian music to artists that reliable sources haven't identified as such. Powell is a reliable source, and artists that he identifies as Christian music should be included. But unless we have a reliable source, editors such as you and I shouldn't apply that definition ourselves. Reliable sources are allowed to, and are supposed to, engage in original research. Wikipedia editors, however, are not to.--3family6 (Talk to me | See what I have done) 17:13, 2 December 2015 (UTC)

If it's "performers of Christian hip hop", yes, it would be OR. Since it's currently "Christians who perform hip hop", it's not. Walter Görlitz (talk) 06:24, 3 December 2015 (UTC)

So, do we create a separate article for performers of Christian hip hop? Legit question; the scope of this list needs to be explained, and a separate one created if necessary. And should this be done with the rock and metal lists?--3family6 (Talk to me | See what I have done) 01:51, 4 December 2015 (UTC)

I went ahead and moved this list to a new title, "Christian performers of hip hop and rap," to help distinguish that it is a list of hip hop performers who are Christian, rather than a list of artists in the Christian hip hop genre.--3family6 (Talk to me | See what I have done) 02:22, 4 December 2015 (UTC)

Not impressed, but not going to move it back. Walter Görlitz (talk) 06:12, 4 December 2015 (UTC)

Wrong, it should be List of performers of Christian hip hop and Christian rap, see where I placed the word Christian and twice to prevent a misconstruing of the scope pertaining to this list. Lil Wayne makes neither Christian hip hop nor Christian rap music.The Cross Bearer (talk) 07:31, 4 December 2015 (UTC)

The Cross Bearer See the below discussion, #Should there be separate lists of Christian performers of hip hop and Christian hip hop artists?--3family6 (Talk to me | See what I have done) 16:34, 4 December 2015 (UTC)

Should there be separate lists of Christian performers of hip hop and Christian hip hop artists?

As a result of the very recent discussion in the Lil Wayne thread, I moved the title of this article to "List of Christian performers of hip hop and rap," which should for now settle the broader controversy over the scope of this list that has plagued this list article for years - whether it is of Christian hip hop musicians, or Christian musicians who perform hip hop. However, this now means that there is no standalone list for artists who perform the subgenre of Christian hip hop. So, should this list be moved to its previous title, "List of Christian hip hop and rap artists," and the scope limited to only Christian hip hop artists and a new list article with the current title, "list of Christian performers of hip hop and rap," be created? Right now Christian hip hop artist dominate the list, but with the now explicitly broadened scope, that might not be the case as more artists are added, and thus it might be important to ensure that Christian hip hop genre has its own list. It is acceptable for all of the entries in a list of narrower scope be included in a list of wider scope. For instance, the list of death metal bands includes all the entries in the list of melodic death metal bands, list of Swedish death metal artists, etc. I personally, as a Wikipedia reader as well as an editor, would appreciate a distinction between artists who perform within the Christian hip hop subgenre and hip hop artists who are Christian, with the understanding that there will be overlap. Some artists might personally not want a subgenre label, but the consensus on other lists, such as the list of Christian metal artists and list of Viking metal bands (each of which, incidentally, deal mainly with genres defined by lyrical themes), is that the opinion of independent reliable source outweighs that of the artists themselves when it comes to genre labels.--3family6 (Talk to me | See what I have done) 03:01, 4 December 2015 (UTC)

No need. There is not CCM list either. Walter Görlitz (talk) 06:12, 4 December 2015 (UTC)

Actually, why isn't there a CCM list? I'd never thought of it before, but I don't see a reason why such a list shouldn't be created. Conversely, I can see why a Christian hip hop list would not be needed, if you have a list of Christian performers of hip hop, as the listings would be very, very similar.--3family6 (Talk to me | See what I have done) 16:37, 4 December 2015 (UTC)

I don't know why there isn't one. People frequently put CCM artists on the worship artist list.

To address your main issue though, we could make industry- and genre-specific lists (performers of Christian metal, performers of Christian folk, etc.) and then make a separate list of musicians outside of the gospel music industry but are professing Christians. This could deal with hip hop, rock, blues, and other genres. I have no idea what the title of such a list would be though. Walter Görlitz (talk) 17:04, 4 December 2015 (UTC)

I like that idea, though yes, I'm not sure what you would title such a list. Another thing that I was thinking is that while faith-labels work for individuals, they don't work as well for groups and bands. How does a band profess faith in Christianity? And how does a band like The Classic Crime fit in, where all the members may not profess Christianity? Separate listings would help this kind of issue as well, I think.--3family6 (Talk to me | See what I have done) 20:15, 4 December 2015 (UTC)

As an aside, I think all of this shows the problem of trying to base a form of music off the faith of the performers. In the classical traditions, you don't have this problem. Composers like Bach made both secular and Christian music, with the distinguishing feature being the lyrical content and the context of performance. I personally would argue that a Christian can make "secular" or "a-Christian" music, and that a non-Christian can make "Christian" music, because it is the lyrical focus that would define the music as one type or the other. However, that's not how it ends up working in the current music industry, so it gets much more complicated.--3family6 (Talk to me | See what I have done) 20:15, 4 December 2015 (UTC)

We've lost the edit notice

In all of the moves, the edit notice seems to have been misplaced. Anyone know how to get it back or should we create a new one? Walter Görlitz (talk) 21:22, 30 December 2015 (UTC)

The edit notice disappeared a long while back, apparently, as I can't find it. I'd create a new one.--3family6 (Talk to me | See what I have done) 00:28, 31 December 2015 (UTC)

What about artists who are no longer CHH?

Asaiah Ziv has been released from his contract from the Christian label Infiltrate, as he no longer claims Christianity. He most likely will no longer be associated with CHH. So, do we keep him on the list? I would say yes, since he was CHH before.--3family6 (Talk to me | See what I have done) 00:44, 2 February 2016 (UTC)

@3family6: I would say you are absolutely correct, the rappers can't be eliminated from their participation in the Christian hip hop movement, such as Jahaziel.The Cross Bearer (talk) 04:49, 2 February 2016 (UTC)

I also agree. It might be worth adding a note to such cases though. Meters (talk) 05:01, 2 February 2016 (UTC)

Inclusion criteria

Per https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/List_of_Christian_performers_of_hip_hop_and_rap the inclusion criterion for this list is simply performers of Christian hip hop and rap. The list should not include performers who are Christian but do not perform the Christian sub-genre. Meters (talk) 22:15, 22 December 2015 (UTC)

How do you identify performers in this genre? Self-identification is not going to work because several prominent performers of the genre do not want to be identified with the genre at all. Please provide a comprehensive criteria for possible inclusion in the list. Walter Görlitz (talk) 05:35, 23 December 2015 (UTC)

I don't add performers to this article. The inclusion criterion has been set as artists who perform in the Christian hip hop genre. Since there is such a genre, there must be music of that genre, hence there must be artists who meet the criterion. What does it matter if they self identify or not? It was clear when the AFD was closed that Christian performers of hip hop was not a valid criterion for this article. Meters (talk) 05:43, 23 December 2015 (UTC)

Sorry for the confusion. Please

1. Stop linking directly to the article.
2. Give a criteria of which artists should be considered as performing in the genre.

While there is a genre, and you don't understand it or what constitutes inclusion in the genre. To some, such as Powell's 200 criteria, it is people who self-process as Christian and perform music of a specific genre. To others, such as G. Craige Lewis, Christian hip hop is an oxymoron as they are polar opposites. Performers of the "genre" don't want to be associated with it and their adherents will come here to remove them from the list. So either offer the requested criteria or explain why you can't. If you can't, then take this article off your watchlist because it's going back to where it came from. Cheers. Walter Görlitz (talk) 06:09, 23 December 2015 (UTC)

This is defined as a list of artists who perform Christian hip hop, so that is inclusion criteria. If we have reliable independent sources that describe somebody as a performer of Christian hip hop, than he should be included. It's very simple. Vanjagenije (talk) 09:02, 23 December 2015 (UTC)

Two issues with your statement:

1. So only individual males should be included? I'm just being clear.
2. Your circular argument does not solve the problem.
   1. Powell, and others, would argue that self-proclaimed Christians who perform hip hop are performers of Christian hip hop. Reviews of their music will appear in Christian publications and some might even allow their names to stand for industry awards, however their music is not on a "Christian" label and may lack distribution to Christian music stores.
   2. Lewis and others say that there is not such thing as Christian hip hop and so there are no legitimate performers of Christian hip hop.
   3. And there are still others who don't want to be on this list.

How do we determine who is considered a performer of Christian hip hop? If you don't want to address the actual issue with a clear definition, you're not helping. And don't give me nonsense that it's references, because I referenced subjects who were Christian and clearly performers of hip hop who were just removed and caused the article to be moved, twice. Walter Görlitz (talk) 15:17, 23 December 2015 (UTC)

• As with many, many other genres, there often are people or groups of people who will contend that certain artists do or do not fall under a certain genre label, and there often are disagreements as to what the definition of a certain genre actually is (heavy metal is one such contentious genre that I work with and encounter a lot). As Walter illustrates above, there is some disagreement, or inconsistency, as to how Christian hip hop is actually defined. Thus, we go by reliable sources. If a reliable source associates an artist with the Christian hip hop genre, then they should be included here. As per convention on the Christian rock and Christian metal lists, it is even reasonable to list an artist who is defined as performing Christian music, and also performing hip hop. What is original synthesis is extrapolating to say that an artist who personally professes Christianity, or, if a group, whose members profess Christianity, and perform hip hop, but are not confirmed by reliable sources as performing within Christian music. That is why Lil Wayne or Boi-1da would be excluded from this list, but dc Talk, Lecrae, and Street Symphony are included - the former two, while professing Christians as confirmed by reliable independent sources, have not been associated with Christian music, while the latter three all have. Why should we defer to Powell's (or Doug Van Pelt's) definition as opposed to Lewis's? It all comes down to this: Does a source, regardless of the artist's (or artists') personal beliefs, identify said artist with Christian music and hip hop? If so, include the artist; otherwise, exclude.--3family6 (Talk to me | See what I have done) 02:31, 24 December 2015 (UTC)

Agreed. An artist who performs what a reliable source identifies as Christian hip hop is eligible for inclusion, and only such performers are eligible for inclusion. I think any attempt to move this article back to including any Christian artist who perform hip hop would be against consensus. Meters (talk) 04:49, 24 December 2015 (UTC)

Seconded. I would say gospel music is tantamount to Christian music, for Half Mile Home are defined as R&B, hip hop, gospel group, by AllMusic.The Cross Bearer (talk) 05:14, 24 December 2015 (UTC)

Thanks 3family6. That's what I was aiming for, but what if there is contention and a Lecrae fan removes with their usual comment? Revert and indicate it's supported by a RS? Sure.and if we get someone adding Yo Majesty! or Lil Wayne in with an inconclusive ref, same. I won't have much time to add sources over the next few weeks, but possibly in the new year. Walter Görlitz (talk) 05:47, 24 December 2015 (UTC)

How is this different from any other article or list? No one person owns the article or is responsible for it. Changes are made by anyone who wishes to, and the changes may be reviewed by anyone who chooses to patrol that particular article. Any entry of an artist whose article does not have a reliable source showing that they perform Christian hip hop should be removed, or possibly flagged for citation if it seems likely that they do perform Christian hip hop and it has not been mentioned in their article (I'd rather see the mention and citation added to their article). Meters (talk) 06:14, 24 December 2015 (UTC)

Yes, you are absolutely correct citations should be given to prove they are in fact CHH artists, where in an ideal world they would be utilized on their artist or BLP page.The Cross Bearer (talk) 02:47, 25 December 2015 (UTC)

It's my understanding that The Cross Bearer is responding to me and I agree. As for Meters, there have been a few editors who have been attempting to request that RSes be added to list entries, not simply rely on sources to be present in linked article. That fails, W:PV. Walter Görlitz (talk) 08:04, 25 December 2015 (UTC)

User:Walter Görlitz perhaps you should ask User:The Cross Bearer who he or she's agreeing with if you have any doubt. It seems to me from the indentation and content that the response is in agreement to my comment that anything included in this list needs to be referenced to a reliable source showing the Christian Hip Hip genre.

I don't care whether such references are in the BLP only or also in this list. By a strict interpretation of WP:STANDALONE#Citing_sources and WP:MINREF one could argue that the references need to be in the list as well as the BLP (or at least that one could force this by challenging all entries without refs), but some lists accept the sourcing only in the linked article. If I'm adding something to an existing list I follow whatever precedent has been set for that list.

I have no idea what you mean by "That fails, W:PV" That's a DAB page and none of the entries have anything to do with Wikipedia policy on lists or references. Meters (talk) 22:13, 30 December 2015 (UTC)

And a merry Christmas to you. Try WP:V. Walter Görlitz (talk) 22:57, 30 December 2015 (UTC)

Attention to the above contributing editors vs WG: same problems here as with Talk:List of Christian rock bands and List of Christian country artists I see. Notable artists missing (ie. rappers Hammer/Gibson) and those who aren't reliably sourced are added (Reuben is also included on the rock band list). These lists need revamping and be properly cited or removed... The CCM definition can't apply to all articles and contradicts who is or isn't added (some removed for only being "CCM" yet others are secular or not within the specific genre they are on the list as/for). Either it's a list of people in any specific genre who are just Christians (Rev Run or Mase/Diddy), regardless of the context/message/style of their music (which would mean the article should be deleted since there are no such articles for Buddhist hip hop artists or Atheist rock bands, etc.) or they are recognized as strictly/only doing Christian music/lyrics/genre period. If changes aren't made on these lists soon then it means people are only fans of artists and just namedropping or being stubborn by not following Wiki guidelines for lists. In either case, I will take it to a noticeboard until the problems are resolved. This is nonsense when it's a simple fix/solution. I made my point many times and repeated myself so there should be no reason for back-and-forth responses then just ignoring these issues when there is a consensus! Thank you kindly... 2600:1702:1690:E10:61F2:BC0C:F749:4834 (talk) 07:06, 15 March 2018 (UTC)

The Christian Music Industry doesn't own the term "Christian Music" and so the term is vague and this list, as many other "Christian musicians" lists use that approach and equate "Christians performing in the genre" as sufficient. You'll need to establish a consensus to change that. I'm opposed to making the change.

There are many more lists of musicians that do not have references than those that do, so the references issue is a greater one than a few lists that you have looked at. The fact that you refuse to accept references that go against your personal opinion is a separate issue.

That subjects are missing is simply an oversight. Feel free to add them. Walter Görlitz (talk) 20:43, 15 March 2018 (UTC)

Agree to disagree but i'm not the one who has had issues with references. The consensus on the other list(s) like this is that certain individuals/bands don't belong and regardless of your spotty source(s), they should be removed. We can't include all "Christians" doing secular music on these lists. Shalom! 2600:1702:1690:E10:693E:AB91:A002:44E2 (talk) 05:43, 27 March 2018 (UTC)

Jon Gibson

Should he be included? Not all people agree. Nigos (t@lk • Contribs) 04:32, 14 April 2018 (UTC)

I'm not sure that the source supplied, https://www.soultracks.com/jon_gibson.htm, is reliable. I'd be happy to take it to either WP:RSN or Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Albums, where's they're discussing sources.

My primary objection is that it's not the subject's primary genre. Nothing sourced at the subject's article. https://www.allmusic.com/artist/jon-gibson-mn0000254698/biography and none of the AllMusic reviews [1] [2] [3] [4] [5] [6] [7] mention rap or hip hop, but they do mention dance, R&B, and other genres. Quotes from Powell, Mark Allan (2002). Encyclopedia of Contemporary Christian Music. Peabody, Massachusetts: Hendrickson Publishers. p. 361. ISBN 1-56563-679-1.

• "Aint' It Pretty" combines rap and metal guitar
• Change of Heart also includes the innovative rock-rap number "The Wall"

but the rap is by M.C. Hammer, not Gibson.

• MC Peace is mentioned later as doing raps
• "In Too Deep" offers a kitchen-sink of melodic chorus with rapped verses

"Hip hop" is not mentioned. The question is, do a few songs out of more than fifty constitute being a hip hop artist? That's my primary objection. Walter Görlitz (talk) 04:57, 14 April 2018 (UTC)

I'm so sick and tired of doing this with you over the years then me being blocked or considered disruptive when it is YOU who continues to revert multiple times without consensus or discussion, going as far as to mention adding them above now having a 'change of heart' since you undo or change EVERYTHING I contribute out of spite. You were wrong on Billy Graham and on Gibson's article many times. You are completely ignorant about him and his music as has been proven over the years via your constant reverts and leaving his article a mess! He rapped on "The Wall" (have you ever actually listened to it?) when he mentions he's 'JG' (not only Hammer) plus he raps SOLO on '"Ain't It Pretty" (whether it has metal guitar during a period in the 80s when that was popular doesn't matter), "Love Come Down", "In Too Deep", "Happy To Know Jesus", "Enough is Enough" (amen to that), "You Are The One" (harmonizes with MC Peace) and others! His album Jesus Loves Ya (including some of the songs i'm mentioning) was considered "edgier" and "urban" as well as 'The Man Inside' classified within the hip hop genre and record label. And songs/singers don't have to rap to be hip hop! You think Kirk Franklin raps (based on your limited definition of hip hop)? He's on the list. You think Toby Mac only does rap and hip hop? He's on the list as well. Gibson was considered the first notable white Christian hip hop artist but just because you don't agree or he wasn't as publicized and used African-Americans in his songs doesn't discredit the fact he should be included since HE did contribute even if he's not solely hip hop. You think Van Morrison is a Christian rock band based on his faith when his own article says he doesn't consider himself Christian. You think U2 is a Christian rock band. Maybe you can't tell when Gibson is rapping in songs but hip hop is more than rapping. Educate yourself first. Then stop bothering me and "owning" articles! 2600:1702:1690:E10:3193:3723:58B7:5935 (talk) 05:27, 14 April 2018 (UTC)

I have heard (and spun) "The Wall" and I acknowledge that he raps on it, but one song doesn't make a rap artist. He uses rap as a tool in his pop and R&B songs, he's not a rapper. That's what my sources stated. If one song on an otherwise pop album makes a pop artist a rapper, Bryan Duncan's "Don't Ya Wanna Rap" would put him on the list, and Crystal Lewis would be here too. Your claim that Gibson is considered a "white hip hop artist" is not supported by any reliable sources. TobyMac is on the list because he was DC Talk's rapper. Four solid albums and an EP of rap by the artist is what puts him here. Walter Görlitz (talk) 05:38, 14 April 2018 (UTC)

Score 1-1. Not a consensus but with my overwhelming evidence it should remain on the list with a cite/tag added OR include the songs/albums behind his name that qualify. Just like on the other lists you monopolize. Sources are on his article even if he's not predominately in the hip hop genre. He qualifies as much as R. Kelly on the 'list of gospel artists' for his ONE album. Knock it off already, Walt in BC! P.S. Don't lie and say he didn't rap on it then. You're still wrong and we both know it! 2600:1702:1690:E10:3193:3723:58B7:5935 (talk) 05:50, 14 April 2018 (UTC)

Nope, WP:BATTLEGROUND states that there needs to be consensus. This being a BLP article, it needs extremely reliable sources. I don’t think soundtrack.com is one of them. Nigos (t@lk • Contribs) 07:48, 14 April 2018 (UTC)

You don't think doesn't make it true but it's not worth it to me to prove myself to this stubborn knucklehead. He changes everything on my edits and he's had to eat crow many times already. He has it out for Gibson for some reason. Just see his article which shows all his reverts because WG must be mad that Gibson out-ranked/charted someone else he's a fan of probably and still has angst against him or something. All the "Christian list" articles are crap. They're not all sourced. He uses a source for Van Morrison doing Christian rock that doesn't even mention it just because it's from Rolling Stones. He claims U2 is a Christian band yet NO source states this just because they only mention sporadic godly/spiritual themes in songs. Yet he argues on here that it's an issue all the sudden? It's like when he accuses others of edit wars and 3RR or sock puppetry which he is/was guilty of and blocked for. Look at the Christian hip hop article to see it's lacking sources/cites for verification like stating Toby Mac was the first mainstream Christian rapper and other false claims (or statements not sourced and made by a fan's point of view)!?! POD technically doesn't rap but is on this list. Even this article doesn't say it has to be a rapper and Kirk Franklin doesn't rap either! But him being associated with hip hop is the same as J.G. Walt reverted a contribution of mine on Billy Graham three times then conceded that I was right yet still had to get the last change/word, so he altered my sentence. He stalks/follows me on articles like "Ya Mo B There" and now Deezer D just to have his imprint on everything. Someone on Gibson's article approved my edit then he had to "accept it" just to harass me. That's after he removed a source with Gibson's name and song on it that WG claims isn't there! It's annoying. He's always sabotaging my efforts which is why i only use an IP when editing on articles he watches. I use an account with the ability to block him otherwise but i can't do that obviously. I'm just waiting it out. Then when i claimed/reported he is hounding me, he goes to a noticeboard saying I did it to him! INSANITY! No wonder why "anons" get so angry. It's creepy/weird/crazy! I'm not the only one he's doing this to. His lack of attention to detail frustrates me. He should be ignoring me and only [you] or others give input. He does this on purpose because I've outsmarted him in the past and can't get over it. We have bad history. I can't stand him. He lies, trolls, tag-teams, OWNS, 3RR, edit wars, attacks, etc. This is just his way of having control. I did this and other edits days ago just as proof/evidence. I couldn't care less if JG is on the list or not. It's the point/principle of his violations. He's not consistent. He wants articles his way or no way. He's being a hypocrite on here but when I go remove others that don't qualify, he justifies them or ignores talk page messages for resolution.

Notices on these articles need to specify the 'list is incomplete' with many missing entries and still not added (i already gave examples on talk pages to improve the article). These tags need to be added on the "Christian music list" articles (ie. List of Christian country artists / List of gospel musicians, etc.) and individuals on them who are not qualified to be on the list and/or are not sourced, as well as the Christian hip hop article. Just like with Van Morrison, U2, Twenty One Pilots, John Reuben and others on List of Christian rock bands with the consensus being to remove them yet they remain!

{{Citation needed|date=April 2018|reason=A source other than the label is needed here.}} {{multiple issues| {{fanpov| date=April 2018}} {{overly detailed| date=April 2018}} {{unreliable sources| date=April 2018}} {{primary sources| date=April 2018}} {{refimprove|date=April 2018}} }} {{Use mdy dates|date=April 2018}} {{refimprove|list|date=April 2018}}

2600:1702:1690:E10:91A9:ECEC:71CE:A25B (talk) 09:04, 14 April 2018 (UTC)

Responding to Nigos' earlier comment on sources, I tried to appeal to a few, and will see if I can find additional today. Would you mind responding to my question? It's undeniable that Gibson had rap on albums, and he didn't always perform the rap. the question is, does including a few songs over his career make him a hip hop artist? Does including rap in a pop song make you a rap artist. Anon's point is that he did so when few white artists were doing it (Steve Taylor had one song in 1982, dcTalk and TobyMac started in 1989, D-Boy—a Hispanic rapper—also started in 1989, while Gibson's Frontline releases were 1986, 1988, 1990 and 1992, with a compilation in 1991) and so should qualify for some special interest. Walter Görlitz (talk) 16:17, 14 April 2018 (UTC)

You need to come to terms with the fact you also don't always have the best sources and/or best edits/history either:

1. We should be working together, not you blocking my efforts when you see i'm making an effort to improve articles!

2. Like other "lists" articles within the Christian genres, it should include anyone who made any contribution to them...

3. Just like VM, U2, etc. Or Christian country done by Dolly Parton, Dion during 80s and B.J. Thomas during 70s/80s

4. People may not ONLY do hip hop, country, rock, etc. BUT did contribute at some/one point - which qualifies them!

5. This was your own interpretation so removing JG is a deliberate snub per your clouded judgment of me/IPs/anons

P.S. JG isn't some one-hit-wonder you make him out to be who didn't pave the way for other r&b/rappers/soul artists

2600:1702:1690:E10:89B:5DE:8ED4:EFCA (talk) 21:11, 14 April 2018 (UTC)

I'll only address a few of your points. 1. I am trying to work together. It seems that any correction to your edits are seen as an attack. They're not. I know you won't accept that, but it's the truth. 2. I don't understand this point, but I'll assume it means that inclusion in the lists should be based on your criteria, not those of reliable sources. 4. This is the point I'm trying to discuss here. I don't believe it should be anyone who has included elements of hip hop in an otherwise pop career, or rock in a career of Southern gospel, or jazz elements in an otherwise hardcore punk career. It should be the genres that reliable sources can be attributed to the subject. 5. I removed Gibson because he does not qualify as a rapper. He has included elements of rap in his pop career, but the reliable sources I've looked at don't really emphasize rap as his primary genre, although Powell mentions it frequently, but always with qualifications. I plan to investigate further. The problem is that Gibson wasn't written about much despite having a lot of radio success. Walter Görlitz (talk) 22:00, 14 April 2018 (UTC)

I see you couldn't resist making slight petty changes to my entries again even though they're on a talk page and insignificant to the "big picture" guy. Does your perfectionism on here translate in your personal and religious life too? Anyway, back to the topic at hand...

1. Keep in mind this cat was a part of the Christian hip-hop/rap group Holy Ghost Boys ("B-Boy Chill" and "Word" including the ORIGINAL "The Wall" at least a year or two before being commercially released as a record track when Hammer didn't even use M.C. yet) before his mainstream fame which pre-dated other popular Christian rappers (such as tobyMac). I personally enjoy dcTalk so this isn't a jab at him/them. Just sharing truth!

2. Your past Wikipedia posse deleted some hip hop artists Gibson collaborated with (considered "bragging" blah blah) years ago yet you got to keep yours on Jimmy and Carol Owens vs [8][9] (Gibson's were also notable associations)

3. I'm sure you'll dispute the sources below and say they're not reliable/legit (just a few quick ones I searched since you haven't yet) but based on his pre-secular hip hop ministry/rapping and later mainstream contributions (having more than 50 songs by the way) i think he should be mentioned in some way on this article!

4. Gibson did a remix of "Jesus Loves Ya" with Scott Blackwell (from The Hits album)

5. I'm not the one who decides what criteria is or isn't acceptable or a legit source/reference. You're projecting. That's totally your game/style. To the point of being a copy-cat when i've accused you of something then flipping the script to complain on message boards that i'm the guilty one. From now on take a deep breath before reporting/reverting and talk it out for goodness sakes. For a Christian you shouldn't be serving/worshipping Wiki, you should be representing Christ first.

[10] "one of the very first 'big name' artists to embrace holy hip-hop" & "Fellow Californian and B-Rite Music (hip hop label) artist Jon Gibson, connected with Sup from his pioneering days in Gospel hip-hop multiple years ago."

[11] 2000 rap song below featuring Gibson although he only does melody/chorus/vocals it's still a part of a rapper's record (album called Dust by Sup The Chemist released February 1, 2000 Hip-Hop/Rap genre)

[12] [13] & [14] "...hip-hop, R&B and rap vocalist..."

[15] "pioneered Christian rap" (repeated/copied on other sites)

[16] "As The Sun Rises" (feat. Jon Gibson) · Sup The Chemist from above album (can search and listen to song sampling "Dust in the Wind" by Kansas)

P.S. This is not sourced but based on my extensive knowledge of Hammer/Gibson, i agree there is little 'written' (mentioned) about him which has been why it's difficult to 'prove' what i know as fact on here and he's honestly treated like the "Hammer" of christian music. Allot of crabs-in-a-basket mentality because of bitter/jealous media not willing to give him props due to his similar sound to Wonder and MJ. This hurt him and it's unfortunate he was considered difficult to categorize since he's exclictic.

[17] (spare site/source unrelated to this topic)

[18] (not a great source for this but saving/leaving here as an archive/resource unrelated to this topic)

2600:1702:1690:E10:81E8:66DD:4AC2:FE7A (talk) 00:39, 15 April 2018 (UTC)

As I've explained before, these supposed "slight petty changes" are both a guideline and a manual of style. Read all about it at MOS:INDENTGAP. "It is a generally accepted standard that editors should attempt to follow, though it is best treated with common sense, and occasional exceptions may apply." Please read the page and comment on it. Further deliberate attempts to circumvent it or to try to punish me by ignoring it because you think it's my petty rule will be reported. Remember, it's not my reporting your actions that gets you blocked, it's your actions that get you blocked. I'll assume other editors put up with your poor behaviour since it's not usually problematic or more trouble to deal with the process of blocking you than it is to just ignore you. Walter Görlitz (talk) 00:47, 15 April 2018 (UTC)

I'm glad he was part of Holy Ghost Boys. Did he rap for the group? Did he just write or sing? The sources at the M.C. Hammer page don't really explain his role in the band. 1. You'll notice that neither of the other two musicians who were in dcTalk are included in this list. It's because their careers went on to not include rap or hip hop. The same is the case for Jon Gibson. 2. Your claim that there is a "posse" is unfounded. I'll let @Hell in a Bucket: comment on his involvement with the edit because I don't know the editor. I have not worked with the editor. 3. Again, assuming that involvement with rap and hip hop musicians as a producer or otherwise doesn't make you a rapper or hip hop artist. I can list lots of producers who have worked in various genres who are not actually part of that genre (Mutt Lange, Terry Scott Taylor to name two). Instead of circling around that idea, state it. yes, not one of the sources states that Jon Gibson was a rapper or hip hop artist. One was 404, at least at my end, and most of the others do not meet WP:RS. 4. And what does that mean? Blackwell was a dance artist. Would you like to add Gibson to the list of Christian dance, electronic, and techno artists now? What is the relevance to this list and this discussion? 5. I'm not asking you to decide the criteria, I'm asking you to provide reliable sources that independent of the subject that say he was a rapper or a hip hop artist, or that the general characteristic of his music made it rap or hip hop. Walter Görlitz (talk) 01:09, 15 April 2018 (UTC)

I think it's pretty clear why they keep getting blocked all a person has to do is look over their edits and comments and it's a no brainer. Way to go trying to reason it out with them [[[User:Walter Görlitz]]. I don't have the time to research or deal with obvious serial trolls, however well meaning their additions and it seems you have things well in hand so there is little for me to add. I also realize this comment could be seen as not assuming good faith but there again look at the edits and block logs (they IP hop so this won't be the only one they've had) Hell in a Bucket (talk) 19:31, 14 June 2018 (UTC)