Talk:List of Atharis

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Hello @Yasinzayd:, regarding your edit here. Yes! This list is about the Atharis, which, most likely, means the followers of Ahmad ibn Hanbal.^[1] As the Hanbali scholar al-Saffarini said in his book Lawami' al-Anwar al-Bahiyya:^[2]

Ahl al-Sunna wa al-Jama'a consists of three groups: Atharis, whose leader is Ahmad ibn Hanbal, may Allah be pleased with him; Ash'aris, whose leader is Abu al-Hasan al-Ash'ari, may Allah have mercy on him; and Maturidis, whose leader is Abu Mansur al-Maturidi.^[3]

Accordingly, followers of schools of jurisprudence other than the Hanbali school must be deleted. What do you think?--TheEagle107 (talk) 08:48, 25 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@TheEagle107: Hello! I removed them because they were listed as Hanbalis although they aren’t, and thus don’t belong in that section.

As for removing the followers of other schools, I don’t agree as the list needs additional content, and that would make it shorter than it already is. Also, any notable person who is described as an Athari by reliable sources should be listed here.

However, the important connection between Hanbalis and Atharism should be emphasized. The sources you put here are great and should be added to the lead! Also, the list is missing Ahmad ibn Hanbal himself while there are probably plenty of reliable sources that describe him as an Athari. (Although none are listed on his page, one could add them if they took the time.)

Some needed improvements:

The page should be organized better by listing according to birth or death date instead of randomly.
Sources should be added for well-known Atharis who are missing them, such as Ibn al-Qayyim.
People who aren’t notable and are unsourced should be removed.
A section should be made for Atharis who don’t fit into the other categories, including classical scholars such as Yahya ibn Ma'in, al-Darimi, and al-Tabari, as well as a section for modern Salafis such as al-Albani.

Yasinzayd (talk) 13:22, 25 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Yasinzayd: Thanks for your quick feedback. I agree with you, "any notable person who is described as an Athari by reliable sources should be listed here." The problem here is that most English sources says "Traditionalist" not "Athari"! Traditionalists may refer to: Ahl al-Hadith (the People of the Hadith) and/or Atharism (Traditionalist theology). Scholars before Ahmad ibn Hanbal (d. 241/855) cannot be considered Atharis in theology; because Ahmad ibn Hanbal is the Imam of Atharis.

Al-Bāqillānī does not see any significant differences between the theology of the followers of al-Ash‘arī and that of Aḥmad Ibn Hanbal (eponymous founder of Atharism).^[4]

Taj al-Din al-Subki said in his Tabaqat al-Shafi'iyya al-Kubra:

“

The Sheikh Imam (i.e. his father, Taqi al-Din al-Subki) said in what he tells us: I came across a book by some of the Mu'tazilis that he called the tabaqat (“generations”) of the Mu'tazilis, and he began by mentioning 'Abd Allah ibn Mas'ud, may God be pleased with him, thinking that he - God acquitted him of them - was following their creed/doctrine. He said, "This is the height of fanaticism, as a person is only attributed to someone who follows in his footsteps."

I said to the Sheikh Imam (i.e., his father, Taqi al-Din al-Subki): If this had been done to them, the Ash'aris would have counted Abu Bakr and 'Umar, may God be pleased with them, in their group, because they are following their belief and the belief of other Companions (Sahaba) ... He smiled and said, "A person’s followers are those who profess his madhhab." [Source]

”

Anyway, I generally agree with your suggestions. Go ahead! 👍 Peace.--TheEagle107 (talk) 08:27, 26 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Athari is a bit of a convoluted term—unlike Ash'ari and Maturidi which are obviously are named after their founders, Athari comes from the Arabic word athar ('tradition'), hence why English sources sometimes call them Traditionalists.

Yes, it is used to describe followers of Ahmad ibn Hanbal! I agree, and this should be shown better in the article. But sources also use it to refer to scholars belonging to Ahl al-Hadith, or any earlier scholar who followed the same strict textualist theology. Sources also refer to scholars before Ahmad ibn Hanbal as Traditionalists (which can be distinguished from its other meaning using context) or just Atharis.

Perhaps this can all be reconciled by noting that the creed existed before Ahmad ibn Hanbal, but it wasn't formally established until he came championing his views, and the later Atharis took him as their imam.

I haven't found much time to write a reply so my apologies. Peace. Yasinzayd (talk) 04:54, 2 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

References

^ Firas Alkhateeb (2017). Lost Islamic History: Reclaiming Muslim Civilisation from the Past. Oxford University Press. p. 119. ISBN 9781849049771. Ibn Hanbal's school (often called Athari
^ Dr. Jadallah Bassam. "The Agreement of the Ash'aris on a Single Creed and a Note on the Meaning of the Words of Imam Abi al-Muzaffar al-Sam'ani". aliftaa.jo. The Fatwa Department of the Hashemite Kingdom of Jordan. Archived from the original on 26 Mar 2024.
^ "Qattar Sunni- Definitions of Orthodoxy". daralhadith.org.uk. Dar al-Hadith. Archived from the original on 25 Mar 2024.
^ Mohammed Gamal Abdelnour (2021). A Comparative History of Catholic and Ash‘arī Theologies of Truth and Salvation. Brill Publishers. p. 55. ISBN 9789004461765.

[1] Firas Alkhateeb (2017). Lost Islamic History: Reclaiming Muslim Civilisation from the Past. Oxford University Press. p. 119. ISBN 9781849049771. Ibn Hanbal's school (often called Athari

[2] Dr. Jadallah Bassam. "The Agreement of the Ash'aris on a Single Creed and a Note on the Meaning of the Words of Imam Abi al-Muzaffar al-Sam'ani". aliftaa.jo. The Fatwa Department of the Hashemite Kingdom of Jordan. Archived from the original on 26 Mar 2024.

[3] "Qattar Sunni- Definitions of Orthodoxy". daralhadith.org.uk. Dar al-Hadith. Archived from the original on 25 Mar 2024.

[4] Mohammed Gamal Abdelnour (2021). A Comparative History of Catholic and Ash‘arī Theologies of Truth and Salvation. Brill Publishers. p. 55. ISBN 9789004461765.

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