Talk:Landmark Worldwide/thewarroom

The War Room

Welcome! Grab a cup of tea and make yourself at home. I think the first question should be: what should I call you as a collective? Polygnotus (talk) 22:19, 20 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I am also quite curious what the most important things people have learned from Landmark (or experienced because of Landmark) are. If that's not too personal to share. Polygnotus (talk) 22:40, 20 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Call me old fashioned, but conversation's a term that denotes (to me) the give and take of the verbal exchange of ideas, whereas I've found this method to be very distinct. For instance, I've already edited my comments a number of times before posting them, which isn't possible in verbal conversation. However, short of using newer tools like Skype (well, it's newer than typing, right?) or Zoom or whatever you use for face to face dialogs. I recognize that this is what we have to work with. So, having preambled on, I'll respond to your second question, then your first, and then, in turn, have at least one question for you. One more thing - I don't work for Landmark and do not speak for the company. I speak from my experience - others may have different things to say,

I first did the est Training. I registered thinking I would be attending a program that would help me managing my money. (That was both correct and inaccurate, by the way.) I sat in the room for the first three hours, thinking "I know that" and "I already know that," and deciding which person speaking was worth listening to, based on things like how they looked or how they sounded - in other words, whether they met my "standards." I distinctly remember when a man about my age stood to talk and I dismissed him based on some of those arbitrary standards - yet within 30 seconds he had my rapt attention as what he was sharing sounded so much like my life and concerns that I was stunned.

That was shocking to me, and in the rest of that program I began to see the ways that I did that all over my life as I dismissed people without even realizing it. More importantly, I began to see how that cost me in failed relationships, lack of friends and estrangement from family. Nowadays, the Forum calls that a blind spot - something that has an impact on one's life but is unseen. My discovery of that about myself was life altering. I know others had told me things like it but they couldn't get through because I already "knew it all."

In many respects, that question about "the most important things people have learned from Landmark" has as many different answers as there are participants, since the current methodology has participants applying constructs to their personal lives. People stop being lonely. Some come to peace with long-standing issues in their lives. Some come away with the experience of having shed heaviness from their thinking. Results vary according to what is important to the participant - which defies what we think "education" should provide after all our many years of schooling.

Regarding your first question, let me suggest that "what shall I call you as a collective" is simple: human beings. The only thing that everyone has in common is their humanity. They are people - not "Landmarkians." People completing the courses don't come out converted to a "Landmark way" - they come out more at home with values that work for them in their life. (And yes, people have been known to go overboard - as in ANYTHING ELSE).

Now, questions for you: do you feel compelled to question the value I got? (Look and see - do you have things you want to say about the previous two paragraphs - that's what I mean) So please look for yourself - what were your reactions? Can you say anything about the nature of those reactions?

Next, what are you arguing for? I don't disagree that "cult" claims have been around a long time - but most cited are decades old, many of them are not qualified experts providing evidence but rather are the literary equivalent of click bait - a headline mentioning Landmark and cult but a subsequent article denying it. There are none that I know of regarding the current program. So I ask again, what your arguing in favor of?

Looking forward to your responses. Ndeavour (talk) 17:40, 25 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I agree that verbal communication can be superior, especially since the human voice adds nuances that are difficult to convey in text, but unfortunately I don't think we have that option. During the COVID years I started developing an intense dislike for Zoom and the like, because it somehow feels incredibly artificial. Weird how seeing someones face can make videocalling feel more artificial than a normal voicecall.

Interesting that you started back in the est days. The bad old days; according to some. About that blind spot, would you consider it something you learned or something you already knew, perhaps subconsciously, but suddenly were forced to confront and deal with? People are of course unique, but that does not mean we don't often share similar struggles.

The reason I asked what people have learned is because I see the determination and enthousiasm with which people defend Erhard/est/Landmark and I don't know any organisation that elicits the same response in me. I am also not the type to go be a spectator at sport events so maybe thats just me.

The Wikipedian/Landmarkian thing is of course just an easy way to talk about the 2 groups. Since the Wikipedians are also human (very very much so) "human" is not a very useful label in this context.

I already knew that some (but not all) people were getting something they believe to be of value of course. I have read (some of) what they wrote online about it. Erhard was obviously inspired by various sources, and not all of those sources are bad or evil. I know quite a few people who love Eastern philosophy. I agree that humans unfortunately have a tendency to go overboard and turn even harmless activities into true horror.

I am arguing in favor of Wikipedia. Doing what we do here. I am arguing in favor of accepting that someone uninvolved wrote the article.

As you can probably imagine there are loads of people who strongly disagree with what reliable sources are saying, create a Wikipedia account and then end up disillusioned (and/or blocked). It is not unlikely that some of those people are correct, but the overwhelming majority are not. I don't know what media you consume but it is difficult to not notice that even what we call "reliable sources" on Wikipedia do not always match up with reality as we experience it. Wikipedia will never contain the whole truth, and be perfectly accurate, it is doomed to be a work in progress until the end of days. Polygnotus (talk) 11:17, 10 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I'm going to suggest that you have collapsed some ideas that really are distinct, based solely upon how you wrote here: "I see the determination and enthusiasm with which people defend Erhard/est/Landmark and I don't know any organization that elicits the same response in me." If - for the moment - you leave out your personal response, can you agree that there are any number of organizations that have determined and enthusiastic followers? In the US, there's are political and social movements; elsewhere there are things like labor unions, the IRA, ISIS, the various denominations of religions - in short, any number that have enthusiastic proponents. If you have a response to any of those organizations that differs from your response to Landmark, isn't it worth some time to distinguish for yourself how and why there is a difference?

I'm not sure that people are so much defending Erhard/est/Landmark as they are proponents of programs that - for them - made an enormous difference. In every program I attended/supervised, every leader makes the point that what is presented isn't "the truth," but instead one possible way of looking at life. The focus of Landmark (est has been out of existence for almost 40 years) isn't on knowledge but on one's relationship to one's assumptions about life - a subject that's fed philosophers from time immemorial. Want to learn about money? Take a course on it. Want to explore your relationship to money? That happens to many in Landmark programs.

You also wrote: "I am arguing in favor of accepting that someone uninvolved wrote the article " What constitutes "uninvolved?" There are magazine articles listed where the authors participated (were involved) - shouldn't they be disallowed as involved? Additionally, they even reject the cult label - it's the editors who add the titling. I look forward to your response. Ndeavour (talk) 18:23, 13 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

To Polygnotus: I find it puzzling that you set up this "war room" to establish a dialog and it's been about two weeks since I posted and you have yet to respond, especially given how rapidly I've seen you respond to others on this talk page. Is everything all right in your world? Ndeavour (talk) 16:15, 9 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Ndeavour: Sorry, I have been very distracted by things irl. And I've had to do some research. Its one of those "life is what happens while you are making other plans"-situations we all know and love. Polygnotus (talk) 11:23, 10 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I haven't cared to edit on Wikipedia for awhile, however, I'd like to point out there are copious amounts of personal experiences documented (including in the articles cited), particularly first hand accounts of journalists. This question got me curious, and I found this playlist on their YouTube channel: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dSPkT_yV6JY&list=PLRJmT-S5OojXXfbSu3KDsml_myJZoAU6h. Nwlaw63 (talk) 17:00, 2 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Interesting, thank you. Polygnotus (talk) 11:35, 10 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]