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Krivoy Rog

[edit]
The following discussion is an archived record of a request for comment. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion. A summary of the conclusions reached follows.
There have been some strong opinions here on both sides but there appears to be a rough consensus for including "Krivoy Rog" in the header. I will leave the actual change to other editors but it is worth noting that consensus can and does change especially when it comes to place names. In this case I would expect the same discussion in a few years to have a clearer outcome. Gusfriend (talk) 06:20, 5 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

{{rfc|hist}}

I think that "Krivoy Rog" should also be in the header, alongside "Kryvyi Rih". There shows a higher appearance of "Krivoy Rog" in the Ngram Viewer linked here: [1], the graph clearly shows a higher usage of "Krivoy Rog" compared to "Kryvyi Rih". Wikiexplorationandhelping (talk) 17:03, 15 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

@Mellk: @Slava Ukraini Heroyam Slava 123: This is not quite an alternative name, it's just how it's called in one foreign country! Just so you'd know, Kyiv has got exactly the same thing: Ukraine calls it "Kyiv", but many foreigners used to call it "Kiev" in the Russian manner – perhaps, it's due to Kyiv's bilinguality. The majority of world's airports started writing it as KYIV only this year, I guess, after Ukraine got openly really irritated by this :P AlbertHog (talk) 18:50, 15 November 2022 (UTC) @Wikiexplorationandhelping: One damn good oppose bro, this leaves nothing to add. AlbertHog (talk) 18:50, 15 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Oops, I've messed your names up in replies a little (User: Wikiexplorationandhelping and User:Slava Ukraini Heroyam Slava 123), but I hope you've figured it out, sorry for that. AlbertHog (talk) 18:54, 15 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

"Krivoy Rog" is in English and used in English literature. The ngram clearly shows that the statement you made is incorrect. Mellk (talk) 18:57, 15 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]
And just because it is used less much less in news articles (there is also no good reason to include only news results), it is still almost 20% of that of Kryvyi Rih and the convention on this is clear. Mellk (talk) 19:02, 15 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I agree with @AlbertHog:. I don’t buy into this whole “English name” claim. There’s the Ukrainian rendered in English letters, and then there’s the russian name rendered in English letters. I don’t think the second one needs to be written in the lead of the article. -🇺🇦Слава🇺🇦Україні🇺🇦Героям🇺🇦Слава🇺🇦(talk)🇺🇦 19:01, 15 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]
All good, AlbertHog, I will read everything regardless. Wikiexplorationandhelping (talk) 19:29, 15 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]
This does not follow WP:PLACE. There is also no name section to explain this. Mellk (talk) 19:04, 15 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Why is there no such “name section”? The article Kyiv has a very long section about the name. Surely there can be one sentence explaining it. This does not belong in the lead. -🇺🇦Слава🇺🇦Україні🇺🇦Героям🇺🇦Слава🇺🇦(talk)🇺🇦 19:10, 15 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Why does it not belong in the lead? Does "Kiev" not belong in the lead in Kyiv then? Mellk (talk) 19:15, 15 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]
No, it doesn’t. -🇺🇦Слава🇺🇦Україні🇺🇦Героям🇺🇦Слава🇺🇦(talk)🇺🇦 19:22, 15 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

@Mellk: 1) MOS:LEADLANG#Foreign language, provided above by User:Slava Ukraini Heroyam Slava 123 – This explains everything, there is even an example of Chernivtsi Oblast, bordering with Romania and Moldova, and their language is obviously spoken there too…You've gotta check it out, mate. 2) There are no words Kryvyi Rih in English literature, it's just a translation, I think. AlbertHog (talk) 19:28, 15 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

@Mellk: 1) MOS:LEADLANG#Foreign language, provided above by User:Slava Ukraini Heroyam Slava 123 – This explains everything, there is even an example of Chernivtsi Oblast, bordering with Romania and Moldova, and their language is obviously spoken there too…You've gotta check it out, mate. 2) There are no words Kryvyi Rih in English literature, it's just a transliteration, I mean. AlbertHog (talk) 19:32, 15 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

"Krivoy Rog" is not a foreign language name. A foreign language name would be adding "Кривой Рог", but this is not what this is about. Also please fix your formatting issues. Mellk (talk) 19:36, 15 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]
@Mellk: I believe that would be better. Something like what the article about Kharkiv has. Wikiexplorationandhelping (talk) 19:47, 15 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]
This argument is ridiculous. Kryvyi Rih simply does not have an English name. It does not. Lviv, for example has a Polish name, as well as a German name. In English, the city Kryvyi Rih can be called either by the Ukrainian name rendered in English letters, or by the russian name rendered in English letters. Also, why don’t articles about Novgorod write Novhorod as an alternative name? That’s how it’s called in Ukrainian. -🇺🇦Слава🇺🇦Україні🇺🇦Героям🇺🇦Слава🇺🇦(talk)🇺🇦 19:49, 15 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]
@AlbertHog: Hmm, the article about the city in the oblast, Chernivtsi, does contain the Romanian translation. Wikiexplorationandhelping (talk) 19:39, 15 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]
WP:EXIST -🇺🇦Слава🇺🇦Україні🇺🇦Героям🇺🇦Слава🇺🇦(talk)🇺🇦 19:51, 15 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

@Mellk: This is not a name, it's just a transliteration, that's why I think only MOS:LEADLANG#Foreign language explains things. Krivoy Rog might be a pretty widespread mistransliteration for the reason Ru-net is still far too popular, even in the rest of ex-Soviet countries, not speaking of Whole of Ukraine… AlbertHog (talk) 19:50, 15 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I'm sorry but this is in English.[2][3] And yes I am sure it's also because of "Ru-net" that these names have been used even before the internet existed. That's enough nonsense for today. Mellk (talk) 19:57, 15 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]
One of them is the Ukrainian name, and the second if the russian one. And the city is in Ukraine!!! That's enough nonsense for today. -🇺🇦Слава🇺🇦Україні🇺🇦Героям🇺🇦Слава🇺🇦(talk)🇺🇦 20:01, 15 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Russian and Ukrainian do not use latin letters, so these are not Russian and Ukrainian names. Also, the city is in Ukraine!!! is not a policy-based argument. You can stop now. Mellk (talk) 20:05, 15 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

@Wikiexplorationandhelping: Well, then, it's a mistake, considering the rules mentioned above ;) @Mellk: There are no such words “krivoy, rog" in Ukrainian language, neither in English. So, it's foreign language. I have no formatting issues, it was all made consciously, you know. AlbertHog (talk) 20:03, 15 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

The evidence provided so far disagrees with you. You can stop bludgeoning now, thanks. Let someone else make a policy-based argument. You may also want to review WP:RGW because it is clear from your edit summaries[4][5][6] you really should. Mellk (talk) 20:05, 15 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Mellk, bludgeoning the process like you are doing in Talk:Old East Slavic? Please familiarize yourself with the concept of transliteration. Just because a foreign word gets rendered in English letters does not make it an English word. I can write the name of any city I want from any language I want in a English letters, that won’t make it the English name. -🇺🇦Слава🇺🇦Україні🇺🇦Героям🇺🇦Слава🇺🇦(talk)🇺🇦 20:16, 15 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]
The dictionaries disagree with you. Just because it is derived from the Russian or Ukrainian spellings does not make it a foreign-language name. Also please don't mention completely irrelevant discussions again. Mellk (talk) 20:25, 15 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

@Mellk: There are no such words in English, this is only a transliteration. Moreover, it's called foreign toponym, not English language... AlbertHog (talk) 20:10, 15 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

@Mellk: So then, can you translate to us this "English word" "kryvyi" into Ukrainian? Please, Begging you! AlbertHog (talk) 20:21, 15 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

This is about "Kryvyi Rih", not "kryvyi", so this argument is nonsensical. Mellk (talk) 20:25, 15 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

@Mellk: Oh and one more thing: the equivalent to Ukrainian "Kryvyi Rih" in English is "Crooked Horn", which is said in the preambula. AlbertHog (talk) 20:28, 15 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

@Mellk: You can translate even Kryvyi Rih into Ukrainian, if you want so! I don't mind such self-educating. So, how is it? AlbertHog (talk) 20:32, 15 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

"Crooked Horn" is the literal translation of the word in Ukrainian. The city is not called "Crooked Horn" in English. But I do not see the point of replying to what has already been refuted. Save the closer the trouble of reading through all the pointless text. My comment above still accurately sums this up. Mellk (talk) 20:35, 15 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

BTW, the article is 12 years old. Why the new push right now to give the Russian name for a Ukraine city more prominence? North8000 (talk) 20:38, 15 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Actually, the alternative name was there until driveby editors recently began trying to remove "Russian names" from articles.[7] What you should be asking instead, is why there is a push for having these removed? Mellk (talk) 20:46, 15 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]
It was there all the time before socks came [8]. I am not sure why we are even discussing this. Ymblanter (talk) 20:56, 15 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

COMMENT Check out the Ukrainian article about George Washington. Джордж Вашингтон. If you think that Kryvyi Rih and Krivoy Rog are English names just because they are written in English letters, then you have to also say that Джордж is an Ukrainian name because it’s written in Ukrainian letters. Also check out the article Ендрю Джексон about Andrew Jackson. -🇺🇦Слава🇺🇦Україні🇺🇦Героям🇺🇦Слава🇺🇦(talk)🇺🇦 21:11, 15 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I am sorry to say this but the above comment shows that you do not know what you are talking about. Ymblanter (talk) 21:17, 15 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Mellk told that those two names are not Ukrainian and russian because Russian and Ukrainian do not use latin letters. -🇺🇦Слава🇺🇦Україні🇺🇦Героям🇺🇦Слава🇺🇦(talk)🇺🇦 23:03, 15 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

@Mellk: I'm still waiting for the meaning of these "English wonderwords like "kryvyi, rih" or their translation to Ukrainian. This would surely prove words are English. Ukrainians know both the Slavic languages, this doesn't mean their toponymy needs translation to Russian everywhere, it's not Canada. – Russians don't know Ukrainian, that's why they always use Russian-transliterated toponymy for Ukrainian locations; and Ru-net is bigger, that's why some Uks use it too in the web and search instead of Ukrainian – this is where all the search counts come from, your point is miserable. You see, people search for information, and they don't know yet where it's fuller, so sometimes it goes like this. Passers by don't care so much what language it is written in, but when it comes to scientific matters, only the correct names come in use, no nicknames and no Russianisms, I think.
@Ymblanter: So what? Just because it's always been there doesn't mean it's right, no? Like this: MOS:LEADLANG#Foreign language. And yes, the Chernivtsi case is wrong too. AlbertHog (talk) 21:56, 15 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Sure, everybody is wrong, and you, with 70 edits, are right. Ymblanter (talk) 21:58, 15 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]
WP:NPA Do not make personal attacks anywhere on Wikipedia. Comment on content, not on the contributor. Personal attacks harm the Wikipedia community and the collaborative atmosphere needed to create a good encyclopedia. -🇺🇦Слава🇺🇦Україні🇺🇦Героям🇺🇦Слава🇺🇦(talk)🇺🇦 22:48, 15 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

@Ymblanter: Being so rude, you haven’t said any yet except saying we're not your good lol. I can't remember you saying anything intellectual at all, pal. You started showing off just after you showed up… AlbertHog (talk) 22:04, 15 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you for teaching me Wikipedia policies. Certainly, I would never had a chance to learn them without you. Ymblanter (talk) 22:07, 15 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

@Ymblanter:What does number of edits change? AlbertHog (talk) 22:06, 15 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

@Ymblanter: Actually, I learned this today thanks to User:Slava Ukraini Heroyam Slava 123. It's impossible to know everything by yourself. You're welcome!, and it's never too late to learn. AlbertHog (talk) 22:13, 15 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

So I guess that Ukrainians and others were somewhat accepting about alternate Russian names for Ukrainian cities. And after the invasion less so. I guess the one thing that I'm sure of is that it should be well explained in the article, including any recent changes in usage/ acceptance during 2022. The previous wording (as pointed out to me) of "also known as" might now be obsolete or have more recently become a stronger and more controversial claim than it was previously. And so I think that that statement or presence in the first sentence should not currently be done. But I think I need to back away from my previous "not in the lead" statement. The name Krivoy Rog has some prominence for the city, at least historically, even if is more recently being rejected. And the lead should be a summary of the article. Perhaps a 1 sentence summary of the Krivoy Rog material (including any recent updates) later in the lead might be a good thing/ good compromise. I don't plan to watch this so please ping me if you think I can be of any help. Sincerely, North8000 (talk) 22:43, 15 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

The point here is that the majority of the population of the city speak Russian as their mothertongue. It would be indeed good to explain in more detail. Ymblanter (talk) 22:47, 15 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Ukrainians never mind someone speaking Russian in casual life, but since Ukraine's independence (1991) we have never accepted using Russian names in the official or public space. Russian was the common language for all USSR, now this just doesn’t work out any more. The decommunization movement in politics as itself started only shortly after the war began, in 2015 to be accurate. This is a very responsible, delicate process, so it is still ongoing slowly even inside Ukraine, not speaking of giving some international acquitances ;) @Ymblanter: Like speak What(??!) as mothertongue?! Why do you think so? Jizz…you still trolling, right? Yes, there are some Russophones in KR, but depending on the age, origin, ancestry, district or enviroment… but majority(?!) Meh… 

AlbertHog (talk) 00:13, 16 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Support. Usually we mention the names of places in locally spoken languages. Considering that the majority of the population of the city is Russophone, it should be added. Alaexis¿question? 07:54, 16 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

@Alaexis: And once again
1)It's not Russophone. Well, I mean mostly not. It's bilingual (in every possible way), more or less, (except some particular estates more or less), but Russian never dominates over Ukrainian, that's just nonsense and this fact proves it can't be called Russophone after all. It's bilingual in some ways, this is not the same thing, you know, not everyone gets this statement right. Do you think I'm lying?
2)And once again: this MOS:LEADLANG#Foreign language leaves no chance to another translations in preambula.
But are you proposing to make an exception? Personally I mind this, if what…Thanks for taking part in this discussion, it's pretty topical. AlbertHog (talk) 17:01, 16 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Please stop bludgeoning. Especially since every comment you add makes this RfC look more and more messy. Mellk (talk) 17:13, 16 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I might have been mistaken about the majority being Russophone, but in 2001 27% of the residents considered Russian to be their mother tongue (uk:Населення_Кривого_Рогу#Мовний_склад). I was quite surprised to read about only one foreign name being allowed in the lede. The same policy says that "The title can be followed in the first sentence by one or two alternative names in parentheses." In practice we almost always include the languages of significant minorities (cf. Ufa, Rennes, San Sebastián) in the lede. Alaexis¿question? 20:48, 16 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]
It seems contradictory to WP:LEADALT. Mellk (talk) 20:54, 16 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

@Mellk: It doesn’t have any alternative names, but surely has foreign translations. Its name in Hebrew was for some time in some other language's preambula, it's been already removed too, dunno why.
…Still waiting for the requested translation btw. If it's so messy, you can still solve this by providing a translation, that's what your, without a doubt, not-bludgeoning intelligence is needed for. Proofs needed. Have some progress? AlbertHog (talk) 18:59, 16 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

No, this is an alternative name. If "Kryvyi Rih" and "Krivoy Rog" are foreign language names as you say, by that logic there are two foreign language names in the lead now, "Kryvyi Rih" and "Кривий Ріг". Apparently the former is not actually in English and they are both Ukrainian. And the German "Krywyj Rih" is also Ukrainian. Even though they use letters not part of the Ukrainian alphabet. See WP:SATISFY. This is very much bludgeoning. Mellk (talk) 19:26, 16 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]
there are two foreign language names in the lead now. No, there’s one name rendered in two different alphabets. -🇺🇦Слава🇺🇦Україні🇺🇦Героям🇺🇦Слава🇺🇦(talk)🇺🇦 22:31, 16 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

@Mellk: You said Kryvyi Rih is foreingn name (English, you said). I asked you to translate this "English name" into Ukrainian, you failed, as I see. That's because it already IS Ukrainian, but not English.
Kryvyi Rih is Ukrainian (native), transliterated into English. Krivoy Rog is in Russian (foreign), transliterated into English.
Krywyj Rih? Ukrainian words written in German letters.
And finally, Kryvyi means Crooked, Rih means Horn. "Crooked Horn" would be English, but not just some English transliteration.
You don't even know Ukrainian, do you? That maybe makes you so curious about this. AlbertHog (talk) 20:26, 16 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I never said "Kryvyi Rih" is a foreign language name. You said "Krivoy Rog" is a foreign language name and therefore does not belong in the lead. This is English Wikipedia. Names in English are not foreign language names. "Kryvyi Rih" in Ukrainian is "Кривий Ріг". This is getting reaaaally silly. Mellk (talk) 20:33, 16 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Please stop repeating this ridiculous argument over and over again. “Kryvyi Rih” and “Кривий Ріг” are the same name rendered in two different alphabets. -🇺🇦Слава🇺🇦Україні🇺🇦Героям🇺🇦Слава🇺🇦(talk)🇺🇦 20:54, 18 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

@Mellk: The city is situated in Ukraine, this wiki is English…What should Russian name be doing in this wiki? Because it's foreign.

This city Vienna, in Ukraine we call it Viden’. Why don't they add this name in the English wiki? -Because it's Austrian, but not Uk! AlbertHog (talk) 17:40, 18 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Because as the Ngram shows you, "Krivoy Rog" is used often in English literature. At this point this is WP:IDHT. Mellk (talk) 18:40, 18 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Using Ngram for finding which term is more popular has many pitfalls. Kryvyi Rih is clearly the common name, and there’s no need to mention multiple foreign names. Thanks, -🇺🇦Слава🇺🇦Україні🇺🇦Героям🇺🇦Слава🇺🇦(talk)🇺🇦 20:52, 18 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Once again, this is not a WP:RM. No one is saying to move the article. The Ngram clearly shows it is an alternative name in English, so per the guidelines, there is a valid reason to include it as such in the lead. Once again WP:IDHT. Mellk (talk) 21:06, 18 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Mellk, actually the repeated use of your arguments despite being debunked, that writing words by English letters somehow turns them to English words is much more similar to WP:IDHT. -🇺🇦Слава🇺🇦Україні🇺🇦Героям🇺🇦Слава🇺🇦(talk)🇺🇦 20:57, 18 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]
It is not my fault if you do not know what you are talking about. But I am sure you are the expert already. Mellk (talk) 21:07, 18 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]
And please stop pinging me. Mellk (talk) 21:09, 18 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Then I guess Povist’ vremennykh lit is also in English. Unless your argument Russian and Ukrainian do not use latin letters, so these are not Russian and Ukrainian names for some reason stopped being valid here. Also, I’m sure you are the expert because of 13,185 edits. -🇺🇦Слава🇺🇦Україні🇺🇦Героям🇺🇦Слава🇺🇦(talk)🇺🇦 21:20, 18 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]
No, in English it is known as Primary Chronicle. Mellk (talk) 21:27, 18 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]
So then, the topic's alt name in English should be Crooked Horn, but not Krivoy Rog???AlbertHog (talk) 23:11, 18 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Looks like yes. I’m waiting to learn in what language is “Povist’ vremennykh lit”. According to Mellk, it can’t be in Ukrainian because Ukrainian does not use Latin letters, and it’s also not in English. -🇺🇦Слава🇺🇦Україні🇺🇦Героям🇺🇦Слава🇺🇦(talk)🇺🇦 09:25, 19 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]
We are talking about place names, please stop making silly comparisons. Mellk (talk) 13:19, 19 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]
One would think that the argument Russian and Ukrainian do not use latin letters, so these are not Russian and Ukrainian names would apply also here. Maybe not. -🇺🇦Слава🇺🇦Україні🇺🇦Героям🇺🇦Слава🇺🇦(talk)🇺🇦 13:28, 19 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]
You are beating a dead horse. Mellk (talk) 13:35, 19 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Possibly. But still there’s no consensus to add “Krivoy Rog” as an alternative name and consensus is official policy. -🇺🇦Слава🇺🇦Україні🇺🇦Героям🇺🇦Слава🇺🇦(talk)🇺🇦 16:39, 19 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

@Mellk: In Ukraine and rest of Europe, the fuehrer of Russian Federation Putin is often mentioned as Huylo (sorry, but Ngram proves this). Is this his alt name? Can we put it on his Wiki page? Because, you see, this is obviously an English word, and surely not Ukrainian strong word! It’s just his alt name! But the Ngram. ;))) AlbertHog (talk) 21:50, 18 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

@AlbertHog: Mind linking the Ngram here? Then propose that change on the talk page there. Also, please see this indentation guideline to minimize ambiguity with replies. Thanks, Wikiexplorationandhelping (talk) 02:07, 19 November 2022 (UTC) Wikiexplorationandhelping (talk) 02:56, 19 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]
This is an English word because Ukrainian doesn’t use Latin letters. It should definitely be listed as his alternative name, and also the lead sentence should call him “fuehrer” because this word is also widely used when talking about him. -🇺🇦Слава🇺🇦Україні🇺🇦Героям🇺🇦Слава🇺🇦(talk)🇺🇦 12:42, 19 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Clearly you have no clue about WP policies. But you are the expert apparently. Mellk (talk) 13:20, 19 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Please refrain from personal attacks. Thanks in advance, -🇺🇦Слава🇺🇦Україні🇺🇦Героям🇺🇦Слава🇺🇦(talk)🇺🇦 13:36, 19 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]
This is not a personal attack. Mellk (talk) 13:44, 19 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Also, the russian name was only added to the article on November 10, 2022. There’s a recent push to include it, not a recent push to remove it. -🇺🇦Слава🇺🇦Україні🇺🇦Героям🇺🇦Слава🇺🇦(talk)🇺🇦 09:42, 19 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

If you check random revisions before that, you will notice that the russian name is absent: 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, and so on. Do you think I’m cherry-picking? Feel free to check it yourself. -🇺🇦Слава🇺🇦Україні🇺🇦Героям🇺🇦Слава🇺🇦(talk)🇺🇦 09:51, 19 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]
The diffs were already provided. The alt name was there for years until it was removed by IP info warriors earlier this year. Mellk (talk) 13:21, 19 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

@Mellk: Are you trying to allow this translationbecause a city is too popular amongst Russians? Is this it? AlbertHog (talk) 16:01, 19 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Personally I don't think English WP needs to have a translation added, which only Russians would understand = / So it would be… AlbertHog (talk) 16:03, 19 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

  • Comment: Also, this RFC was created by one user to add “Krivoy Rog“ as an alternative name. Clearly there’s no consensus to do so. Therefore it shouldn’t be listed in the lead. In addition, russian is not a significant language because the city is in Ukraine. -🇺🇦Слава🇺🇦Україні🇺🇦Героям🇺🇦Слава🇺🇦(talk)🇺🇦 16:42, 19 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]
    There are more than just one user supporting an addition of "Krivoy Rog" than just me, see comments above. With that added, the origin of "Krivoy Rog" should also be put alongside it, which is from Russian. "Russian is not a significant language because the city is in Ukraine" isn't correct. A lot of people speak or know Russian in Ukraine, either as a first language or second language. Again, with the Ngram I provided, it is certainly enough for me to add "Krivoy Rog" in the header, at least for historical reasons. Wikiexplorationandhelping (talk) 17:07, 19 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Reply@Wikiexplorationandhelping: It would be more acceptable generally if the Russification of Ukraine wasn't made by force (by USSR mostly), was no 1930's Holocaust and alfter all, the nowadays War…
    You should know Ukro-Russians never mind speaking and knowing the national language and when a Riger speaks Russian, it still sounds a lot like Ukrainian, my point is that Ukrainian is never displaced into #2 by Russian – it still sounds in institutions, from tv and so on, so even Russians admit the Ukro-Russian thing, but not Russo-Ukrainian model.
    The Russian-speaking significance never was and for now it has almost dissoluted and kinda equated to slang (imho). There is one good example: Kuban', Voronezh Oblast, Belgorod Oblast, Rostov Oblast and so on were once a part of Ukraine, and there was a significant Ukrainian majority. And it's impossible to claim they are Russians when I hear them speak. But I think they are still not repressed for their Ukrainian words and accent…the same goes on here about Russian. But the Anglophones don't need to know how foreigners and the ethnic minorities call it. As I said, the Yiddish name was removed too by some reason. AlbertHog (talk) 13:35, 20 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Since the name was in the article for ages and was removed without discussion, if the RfC is closed as no consensus the name must be restored.--Ymblanter (talk) 08:12, 23 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]
This doesn’t make sense at all. @Odoacer Rex:, please remove the russian name from the lead sentence. There is clearly no consensus to add it and the name was removed long ago. -🇺🇦Слава🇺🇦Україні🇺🇦Героям🇺🇦Слава🇺🇦(talk)🇺🇦 13:22, 23 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]
"Krivoy Rog" is already partly used later the article and appears in the references, especially when World War Two or the Soviet era is concerned. Removing it will do nothing but confuse people who may be studying or researching their family history. However, I will make it clear that the city is now Kryvyi Rih and not Krivoy Rog. This is not politically motivated, but based on encyclopedic principles. Odoacer Rex (talk) 13:39, 23 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I do not think formerly known is correct. It is still known by both names. Ymblanter (talk) 17:08, 23 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]
No, it’s correct. Also all mentions of “Krivoy Rog” in the article should be changed to “Kryvyi Rih”. -🇺🇦Слава🇺🇦Україні🇺🇦Героям🇺🇦Слава🇺🇦(talk)🇺🇦 17:31, 23 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Response I have nothing against the usage of this name K Rog in the ==History== tray, because it was really known worldwide as Krivoy Rog while being a part of USSR… Same goes for XX cent. photos etc.

LikeitsWorth (talk) 20:41, 2 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Notice, I still think that including the russian name in the lead sentence isn’t useful to readers. I think the fact that the page “Krivoy Rog” redirects to Kryvyi Rih is enough to solve the confusion, however writing that it was formerly known is a better alternative to how it was before that. -🇺🇦Слава🇺🇦Україні🇺🇦Героям🇺🇦Слава🇺🇦(talk)🇺🇦 20:09, 23 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Response @K.e.coffman: Well that is right, just because the city was in Soviet Union. Russian was doubtlessly number 1 language during the whole Soviets history. It's really hard to explain how some things were getting forsaken and also repressed, things like religion, traditional culture but international, living language.
Not one of us Uks minds history, historical pictures etc…But, this should be mentioned in the ==History== passage, not .top
LikeitsWorth (talk) 20:41, 2 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Looks like the block evasion. Ymblanter (talk) 21:45, 2 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
And blocked as such. Ymblanter (talk) 07:52, 3 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Response@Ymblanter Mate, your insistance missmatches what you are saying. Your strong opinion made you violate the policy about foreign names for example. And it seems to me that you have a strong interest of favoring some local ethnic minorities (Russians particularly).

I just don't get it, why is English Wiki doubling Ukr names with Russian ones? = /
Your main point was that the =top= had been like this for a long time…well let’s say, not too convincing as for me and the rest. Made me register to say it out.
Other one admin actually missdiffers translation and transliteration :P .
No wonder you guys made them freak out a little. LikeitsWorth (talk) 00:09, 3 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Population Ranking Error

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This page lists Kryvyi Rih as the 7th largest city in Ukraine, when according to several sources, including Wikipedia itself, it is actually the 8th largest. The seventh largest is Lviv, but this cannot be edited, as Kryvyi Rih’s page is locked. 2601:40A:8100:8320:A997:3FA4:B6FD:C28E (talk) 19:59, 1 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

 Done, thanks Ymblanter (talk) 20:51, 1 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • no Disagree Well, now we see that Lviv is ranked 6-th…as it truly is, while the Rih is ranked 7-th and 8-th on the same page xD This is such a great deposition! As you may know, we are factically in war with the occupational government in Donetsk particularly, while some others are still counting it in. The only source we can rely on in this situation is…our intelligence service lol. This blind optimism looks childish, sorry for my opinion if what.

Breaking News to Add

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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kryvyi_Rih#2022_Russian_invasion_of_Ukraine - for this one there has been 2 new attacks, on 5 December, ArcelorMittal was struck, 1 41 yo man died, 3 injured. On 6 December another strike, 1 person injured. Sources: https://24tv.ua/ru/raketnyj-udar-po-krivomu-rogu-6-dekabrja-2022-goda-ranen-i-razrushen-24-kanal_n2212830, https://www.ukrinform.net/rubric-ato/3627843-arcelormittal-kryvyi-rih-struck-with-russian-missiles.html 140.228.45.139 (talk) 20:09, 6 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

[edit]

Hey guys, I've just noticed that there are 3 more raions in the list (almost in top) that actually have their own WP pages, but still they don't have the hyperlinks to their pages. Unfortunately, I can't edit this page, so please, do this for me. Here they are:
Tsentralno-Miskyi District, Kryvyi Rih
Pokrovskyi District
Ternivskyi District.

P.S.:There is also one small mistake in the captcha for the front gallery: "Inhulets landscape" seems right to me — no apostrophe needed, btw that styled apostrophe there doesn't match the WP:MoS (so it seems). And also, "Eagle's Nest" this is how it should be instead of "Eagle’s Nest" (the apostrophe thing).Crappy Trumpet (talk) 15:41, 13 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 19 May 2023

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PREAMBULA

  • Change:

Lotsprofit9 (talk) 10:14, 19 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. DreamRimmer (talk) 13:17, 19 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • @DreamRimmer:Ok, let me try again (somehow, all has gone). I mean, some districts of the city actually have their own pages, but in the preambula list their hyperlinks are missing. Btw, can substitute the word raion to district (it means the same) everywhere, in this case…’Cause now it looks like, confusive, as one may think that these differ somehow.

So, change in the preambula:
| parts = List of 7

  1. Terny District (Raion)
  2. Pokrovsky Raion
  3. Saksahan Raion
  4. Central City Raion
  5. Dovhintsevsky Raion
  6. Metallurgical District (Raion)
  7. Inhulets Raion

to:
| parts = List of 7 districts

  1. Ternivsky District
  2. Pokrovsky District
  3. Saksahansky District
  4. Central City District
  5. Dovhintsevsky District
  6. Metallurgical District
  7. Inhuletsky District

References (in Ukrainian): [10] [11] [12] Lotsprofit9 (talk) 13:47, 20 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Can someone just take a look at this one??? Lotsprofit9 (talk) 14:23, 1 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Most of the names are wrong, but I will take care of this later. Ymblanter (talk) 15:05, 1 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Name it whatever you like, you've got it right. Thank you. Names are wrong, you say – is it because the endings of their names don't contain double letters? (-yy, -iy, -yi, -ij etc.) I think it would be so much easier to read and pronounce for everyone, if our [Slavic names] transliteration was common with English , as there is no significance in these doubled endings in [our] translational matters. And as a pleasant feature, this way helps one skip this brain breaking thing – like picking the right one except they are all the right ones. Lotsprofit9 (talk) 21:44, 1 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Man, I've made a mistake: Dovhyntsivskyi raion – this is the exact transliteration from Ukrainian, while the present name Dovhyntsevskyi raion is awkward: it's neither completely Ukrainian, nor Russian. Lotsprofit9 (talk) 20:25, 3 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
 Done Ymblanter (talk) 21:14, 3 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 4 September 2023

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Please delete the "also transliterated as Krivoy Rog (Russian: Кривой Рог)," part, it's redundant, it is english wikipedia, so I can understand and accept that the name of the city translated i to English, but what does Russian translation do here? Why not translation to Korean or Italian? Does Russia have some special say in how the names of Ukrainian cities should sound like, they can decide what is the right pronunciation of the names of Ukrainian cities? I don't think so, Ukraine is independent state and nobody needs to ask Russia about how Ukrainian cities should be pronounced. Please redact this. TaPuRaTe (talk) 09:42, 4 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Note that the article is protected because a bunch of aggressive sockpuppets were making exactly this edit. Ymblanter (talk) 11:55, 4 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
 Not done: See above prior discussion for rationale, but basically it's because the russian transliteration for this city was used for quite some time and many cited sources, especially historical ones, use it, it makes sense to include this transliteration as well Cannolis (talk) 16:26, 4 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 25 December 2023: "Caption edits request"

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Hello to moderators. Regarding the captions for top pictures…

1)There is an existing page for Old Town, it's called Historical centre of Kryvyi Rih. Can you add the link to the caption?

2)In "Main train station" the word "Main" should be capitalized, because it actually is station own(!) name, not common. Also may you name it Kryvyi Rih-Main rail station, which I'd like more.

3)Should Boat station be capitalized, and there's no article…Personally I would prefer "the boat station on Saksahan.

4)This one is too messed up, I say it should be like: a landscape of the Inhulets from Eagle's Nest. P.S.:give your attention to the correct apostrophe, as far as I know, ' is the preferred one.

That is it, thx for your being initiative ;) WellThatIsSoGood (talk) 05:09, 25 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

 Done I corrected the 3rd and the 4th points, the first two someone corrected before me. Deltaspace42 (talk • contribs) 17:38, 25 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 9 January 2024

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Hi guys. Sorry, I have a bit more of remarks to captchas @top…

1)the boat station on Saksahan -> the boat sation on the Saksahan — because there must always be "the" article before the river names.

2) Kryvyi Rih railway station -> Kryvyi Rih-Main railway station — that's because the name "Kryvyi Rih" railway station" is already taken by another station, which is located in Metallurgical District (btw not far from ArcelorMittal Kryvyi Rih) and is nicknamed "Chervona" (lit. "Red" (by the neighborhood of its location). There is also one more good reason for rename: there is not single 1, but about 13 active railway stations in the city limits, and at least 5 of them are passengers…

Thanks for your help, guys! Cheers. WellThatIsSoGood (talk) 23:03, 9 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Done, thanks.--Ymblanter (talk) 06:57, 10 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 11 January 2024

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Hey folks, I've noticed a few more mistakes, in the Kryvyi Rih#Education tray.

1) In 2014 Donetsk Tugan-Baranovsky National University of Economics and Trade was evacuated to Kryvyi Rih after a start of the Russo-Ukrainian War. Its future is uncertain.

  • Why edit? : — its future is pretty much certain for now, as it still keeps functioning in KR. Particularly, its main building is located in the Trampark neighborhood.

2) According to Frances Cairncross in April 2010, "There are too many small universities, the majority of which are ineffectively governed and mired in corruption. They are not able to withstand existing global challenges."[150] According to Anders Åslund in October 2012, the quality of doctoral education is bad, particularly in management training, economics, law and languages.

  • My proposal is deletion of this paragraph; I've even checked the RS — and, just as I thought, this text absolutely has nothing to do with the city itself.


Thx for your time. Bye bye. WellThatIsSoGood (talk) 13:36, 11 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

 Done ARandomName123 (talk)Ping me! 16:10, 11 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request: addition of audio pronunciation

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It is hard for English speakers to grapple with the Ukrainian spelling and pronunciation of "Kryvyi Rih", and the IPA isn't any easier, so I think adding the audio pronunciation from File:Uk-Кривий Ріг.ogg would be appropriate. This audio file is already used in some other language versions of the article, e.g. sv:Kryvyj Rih. I would also add the Russian audio for "Krivoy Rog" for comparison, but alas, no such pronunciation file has been uploaded to Commons.

Change the start of the lede from:

'''Kryvyi Rih''' ({{IPAc-en|'|k|r|I|v|i:|_|'|r|i:}}; {{langx|uk|Кривий Ріг|link=no}}, {{IPA|uk|krɪˌwɪj ˈr⁽ʲ⁾iɦ|IPA}}), also transliterated as '''Krivoy Rog''' ({{langx|ru|Кривой Рог|link=no}}),

to

'''Kryvyi Rih''' ({{IPAc-en|'|k|r|I|v|i:|_|'|r|i:}}; {{langx|uk|Кривий Ріг|link=no}}, {{IPA|uk|krɪˌwɪj ˈr⁽ʲ⁾iɦ|IPA|audio=Uk-Кривий Ріг.ogg}}), also transliterated as '''Krivoy Rog''' ({{langx|ru|Кривой Рог|link=no}}),

This will display as:

Kryvyi Rih (/ˈkrɪviː ˈriː/; Ukrainian: Кривий Ріг, IPA: [krɪˌwɪj ˈr⁽ʲ⁾iɦ] ⓘ), also transliterated as Krivoy Rog (Russian: Кривой Рог),

Thank you. 70.181.1.68 (talk) 16:12, 22 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

 Done Thanks. Liu1126 (talk) 16:46, 22 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 25 January 2024

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Hey all! It looks like the only city district missing page on En WP already has one… Sounds stupid, I know. I'm talking about Metalurhiynyi District (yes, the original link on this page yet has been almost the same, but, there is some mismatch transliteration). So, the @top districts list has to be refreshed, and also Kryvyi Rih#Government has exactly the same districts list with links, which also should be renewed. Ty, my best regards. WellThatIsSoGood (talk) 04:13, 25 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

 Done, thanks Ymblanter (talk) 21:50, 25 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Ymblanter Remember to set the answered parameter to yes the next time you answer a edit request. Shadow311 (talk) 15:56, 26 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Indeed, I was in a hurry. Ymblanter (talk) 16:19, 26 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Ye, this I've noticed, as you skipped the Kryvyi Rih#Government tray to be changed too ;) I hope somebody still reads this topic. WellThatIsSoGood (talk) 03:30, 27 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
 Done Ymblanter (talk) 17:22, 27 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 16 February 2024: Sister cities

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Hi all! This tray Kryvyi Rih#Twin towns – sister cities is outdated. There've been 3 new sister cities added since the last update:

Also, I'd like to say that this wording Friendly cities frankly means nothing, and, ultimately this means the same as sister cities (depending on RSs). I've checked for any similarities on other cities articles (and also used other WP languages), and I've found nothing similar to this strange wording, so I mean, maybe we should simplify it. Best regards! Bye.

WellThatIsSoGood (talk) 11:59, 16 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

And, at least I know that Lublin is a sister city for sure, RS: https://www.ukrinform.ua/rubric-regions/3664328-krivij-rig-i-lublin-stali-mistamipobratimami.html WellThatIsSoGood (talk) 09:50, 17 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
No srsly, why does nobody react to this request of mine? WellThatIsSoGood (talk) 10:12, 25 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
May be because the proposed change is unsourced, and nobody wants to take a risk adding unsourced info in an article on a contentious topic? Ymblanter (talk) 12:35, 25 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
But on February 17, I linked the RS of Lublin surely having been upgraded to sister city from “friendly”. And secondly, there is plenty of RSs on each of those being sister or just “friendly”, so it's confirmed… And I assume that you can read Ukrainian :). And, I still understand what you’re talking about though :P .
P.S.: Do you mean that you are actually being paid by WP for doing all of this moderation? WellThatIsSoGood (talk) 15:02, 26 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
No, I can not read Ukrainian, I am not paid by WP, and I am doing my best communicating with you despite the fact that you a sock of a blocked user. Ymblanter (talk) 16:28, 26 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Oh, so you’re of Russian origin, you’re moderating Ukraine-related categories without knowing Ukrainian language. Just saying. It looks like Ukrainian is not your only weak side, because I’ve just had to check the word “sock” and it means like «носок, стелька»… :P I don’t understand your slang, and I had never happened to be in someone else’s boots ;) Sorry, but it seems like you’ve picked the wrong guy.
So now, the ones who are authorized to do changes, they don’t even care to, and the other ones refuse to do so because there seems to be some risk of false information (despite all the RS are available in plenty of languages).
And if mostly everyone is so unsure to the point where nothing new can be added, I think the best thing can be done is to remove all the controversial terms (like say, Friendly cities — this term is totally absent in Ukrainian law btw). I’m sure noone still cares though. WellThatIsSoGood (talk) 22:17, 2 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Editors are allowed to edit in any area they have interest in. (Sock in this context means sockpuppet, not the things you put on your feet.) 🌺 Cremastra (talk) 20:19, 28 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
 Not done And I would probably close this as stale/contested even if the requestor weren't a sock. * Pppery * it has begun... 01:34, 31 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 25 February 2024 FC Kryvbass in Sport tray

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  1. Sport is really outdated — it misses (at least) FC Kryvbas rebirth. I could make one or two rows up, if there is a point in doing this. WellThatIsSoGood (talk) 10:21, 25 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
If you formulate specific changes, I can probably add them in the article. Ymblanter (talk) 12:37, 25 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
 Not done No specific changes formulated, requestor is now blocked. * Pppery * it has begun... 01:35, 31 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
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