Talk:Kingdom of Aragon

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wrong map

Ehh, where the hell is sicily on the "kingdom of aragon 15 th century?" the island went to Aragonese hands in the 13th century by the Sicilian vespers. Some one tell me otherwise or else let me upload a new version. And what about corsica or sardina? I don't know about those. Tourskin 04:24, 8 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

They were part of the Crown of Aragon, not the kingdom, which was more or less contiguous with the modern region of Aragón. Srnec 18:19, 28 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Right, except that you probably meant coextensive, not contiguous. --Jotamar 13:18, 29 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

By the way, the other map (Image:Castilla 1210.png) is quite POV, it might even be a plain mistake. Aragon has always been a landlocked territory. --Jotamar 13:50, 29 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I know. Did you see my edit summary? I couldn't find an accurate one on any Wikipedia. We need one. (By the way, I just realised today that though I have known the definition of "contiguous" since childhood I had, humorously and embarassingly, misinterpreted "sharing a border" as meaning "coextensive", since coextensive entities do share a border...) Srnec 00:30, 30 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

The new image I added, oddly enough, calls both kingdom and crown "Kingdom of Aragon" (which thus appears twice on the map). It is also impossible to see the kingdom without enlarging the thumbnail. It is now more accurate, but it could still use improvement. Srnec 01:22, 30 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

wrong flag

Why do you put the Barcelona count flag to refer to the pre-aragonese crown? It should be the Ainsa Cross —Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.230.115.127 (talk) 13:01, 20 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Indeed, I would like to know that too. Is there any reason? AFAIK That flag and coat of arms were that of the Counts of Barcelona, and it didn't became related to the Kingdom of Aragon until it became the Crown of Aragon (by marriage). And in this very same article states that "It should not be confused with the larger Crown of Aragon".

This is highly confusing and misleading... Because it implies that the article is about the kingdom prior to the creation of the crown. Which then would render the dates in the box uttery incorrect, and the flag too.

Well, as I see now In the article coat of arms there seems to be a little confusion about that issue, which I was completely unaware of (I had my perfectly coherent explanation, and so I never searched for any other). It seems that some Aragonese (maily) authors claims that the coat of arms and flag depicted in this article are originally from the kingdom of Aragon (although there seems to be no material evidence supporting that theory), and dismissed the theory of being the coat of arms of the counts of Barcelona which became the coat of arms of the crown by marriage (which may be supported by some paintings in a tomb, or a sigil or something). -> in the article and talk it's discussed more deeply). So maybe the flag is not "exactly" incorrect according to some authors theory? Is that it?

Right now I'm a little confused. I don't have the time, nor the expertise to research the subject in deep, maybe it can't be researched at all, and the reason of all this confusion is a mere lack of documentation, and the Kingdom didn't had any coat of arms or flag as we understand it, or it's completely lost in oblivion.

Anyway, be that as it may, the article in it's current state is misleading, and can be used to support a not proven theory as a known fact. Maybe someone more educated in the subject could propose the correct flags to display, or some elegant solution (or at least a comment of that issue to not "shock" the readers like me, and leave the page with a false impression).

What should we do? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.223.167.182 (talk) 12:59, 3 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]

The Kingdom of Aragon didn't disappear with the dynastic union with Catalonia; both territories shared one king from that moment, but were not the same kingdom. In fact the kingdoms of Valencia and Mallorca were created from the very beginning as other new constituents of the Crown of Aragon. About the four-bar symbol, its origin is controversial, as you have noticed. Anyway, I'll delete the symbol from the infobox in order to be extremely neutral. Jotamar (talk) 21:47, 7 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]

The Senyal Real was the flag of the kings of Aragon, in the same way that the Cross of Bungurdy was for many centuries the flag of the kings of Spain. In the high Middle Ages kingdoms did not have flags, kings had flags, and the Senyal Real was the flag of the King, independently of its origin.99.106.108.191 (talk) 04:09, 21 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]

See: http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Guion_del_Reino_de_Aragón.jpg 99.106.108.191 (talk) 04:14, 21 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Other sources that confirm the use of the bars to identify the kingdom can be found here: https://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Señal_Real_de_Aragón Aracali (talk) 05:03, 22 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Removing the flag and the coat of arms does not represent a neutral point of view. It sides with the view that these symbols were only Catalonian, while in reality they were royal symbols. Even in Catalan the flag is called Senyera Reial. Do you want me to list here every one of the references used by the other articles? Aracali (talk) 16:56, 26 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I don't see why not putting the flag here means that it was Catalan. It doesn't appear in Principality of Catalonia, for instance. The flag must be present first of all in the page Crown of Aragon. WP is not an us against them war, there are many different points of view to be weighed. --Jotamar (talk) 17:27, 28 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Jotamar, this is the wikipedia. You do not own the page, independently of how long you have watched it. You are also removing other of my contributions to this page that added additional information or fixed blatant errors:

Adding the Kingdom of Pamplona as predecessor state.
Replacing the Crown of Aragon with the Kingdom of Spain as the successor state in 1707.
Fixing the statement about Aragon becoming a member of the Crown along with other territories.
Explaining better which territories were part of the Crown.
Explaining that the territories were administered separately.

Could you please explain the reason why you removed each of them?

In what concerns to the flag, your original removal was in reaction to unreferenced, unsigned comments, not a very strong position.Aracali (talk) 02:08, 29 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]

This is my source to state that the flag and the coat of arms with the four bars were the most widely used symbols that identified the King of Aragon:

MONTANER FRUTOS, Alberto, El señal del rey de Aragón: historia y significado, Zaragoza, Institución «Fernando el Católico», 1995. Reimpresión electrónica corregida (2013).

Can you provide a source that proves that they were not?Aracali (talk) 05:04, 29 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]

You should perfectly know that the origin of the four bars before Alfonso II of Aragon is a very controversial point, and works by Catalan authors proving that the symbol was only Catalan are aplenty. Now, if we put in the infobox the symbols of the kingdom of Navarre and those of Spain, and not the symbols of Aragon proper, that is very misleading for the readers. My solution is simple: not putting anything. For this or any other page, a basic common sense guideline is that the infobox should only contain info that is not controversial, The controversial points should be explained carefully elsewhere in the page, with all the different points of view.

Therefore, if you want to include your source (Montaner), do it in a new section in the body of the article, not in the infobox, and include the Catalan authors too!

I've recovered your change in the lead, I don't see it so wordy now. --Jotamar (talk) 17:26, 30 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]

118.167.103.40 (talk) 12:10, 19 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Image for the Crown

In reference to this edit. Everyone agrees that this coat of arms represents the Crown of Aragon, right?.

I want to represent the Crown of Aragon as the successor state in the infobox. It's for the Crown, not for the Kingdom. This shouldn't be controversial! What reasons are there for *not* using this image? --Enric Naval (talk) 17:36, 4 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]

The crown of Aragon as the successor of the kingdom of Aragon (KA)? You know that KA didn't disappear at all with the dynastic union with Catalonia, that's exactly the point that historians underscore again and again. We would just confuse the readers with such a change. --Jotamar (talk) 14:53, 5 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]

You are totally right. My fault.

Someone has used the flag of the Enlightenment in Spain. I suppose that's more correct. --Enric Naval (talk) 14:04, 19 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Language

What was the official language of administration of the kingdom? --Jidu Boite (talk) 14:41, 20 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Maps

User:Cadiomals has been trying different maps, but neither of them reflects what is usually considered to be the kingdom of Aragon. A key point of this page is to clarify any possible confusion between what modern historians call Kingdom of Aragon vs what they call Crown of Aragon. The new maps contribute to the confusion instead of clarifying things. 13:04, 2 May 2012 (UTC)

Dynastic union

Dinastic Union was with Barcelona County, not Catalonia — Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.14.175.64 (talk) 23:51, 11 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Descendants

Is it true Rutger Corné Heinsius and Linde Irmgard Heinsius, who nowadays are a rare species out from the Houses of Bourbon, Habsburg, Arragon, Heinaut and Hohenstaufen, beside all the others, also earn the title King or Queen of the Kingdom Spain? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 159.100.67.82 (talk) 12:01, 20 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]