Talk:KHAD-KGB campaign in Pakistan

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Edit restoration

Discussion Brought here from User talk:Wikibear47

Hi, i saw your edit at the page KHAD-KGB Campaign in Pakistan from page history. I came here to ask you to restore the edit version from 10:56, 10 August 2024‎ by me (by undo option) since after that various users cited unreliable information into the infobox. I had cited the infobox result with a proper note and reliable citation, Instead of me reverting your recent edit i informed you.

Also try to avoid edit wars, thanks ! Rahim231 (talk) 19:52, 13 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The reason I restored the current version was because any edit that becomes disputed by other editors should be discussed on that article's talk page. This also serves as a record and reference point for future edits. Wikibear47 (talk) 00:58, 14 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Hey there that’s a reliable source it clearly mentions KHAD-KGB victory 2001:8003:3F8E:1F00:A59B:9396:3101:4C7F (talk) 00:03, 14 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@2001:8003:3F8E:1F00:A59B:9396:3101:4C7F Thanks for sharing source for you claim, I looked further into it. The book I-SPY A peep into the world of Spies did contain something similar but i suppose you might have not understand it. The claim by you is that the KHAD-KGB Campaign was an operational Victory right ?

Source by 2001:8003:3F8E:1F00:A59B:9396:3101:4C7F

Instead the book states : "In 1987, ISI failed to prevent the KHAD/KGB terror campaign in Pakistan, which led to the deaths of about 324 Pakistanis in separate terror incidents."

The book nowhere state's a Khad-KGb/Soviet victory of any kind, instead a ISI failure to quell violence is written.

above all the Book itself is a questionable source since it is a self/independetly published book in India by some author and frequently shows some bias(although biased views can be found in reliable ones too).It is Published by a publisher Notion Press known for self publishing books. Self published sources are not considered reliable in wikipedia as per WP:EXCEPTIONAL unless in some conditions espacially for events and claims.

Source by Rahim231

where as i have cited the source What We Won America's Secret War in Afghanistan, 1979?89, which is a well renowned book by a senior member in the CIA named Bruce riedel and published by a reliable and well known publisher Brookings Institution Press.

The source states:

"The Soviets tried other tactics to intimidate Islamabad. Soviet air force jets overflew Pakistani territory and carried out highly provocative operations along the border. The Soviet air force and the Pakistani air force engaged in several dogfights, and Soviet pilots were shot down and captured in Pakistan on more than one occasion. Zia would exchange them for cash ransoms from Moscow. None of those tactics appreciably improved results on the battlefield for the 40th Army. It simply failed to defeat the Russian’s main enemy, the mujahedin"

which is makes it clear it was an operational faliure.

Thanks i hope now the edit version by me would be restored.

Rahim231 (talk) 09:44, 14 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

It says isi failed which means they could stop them so it’s a victory 49.186.235.202 (talk) 22:49, 14 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@49.186.235.202 As per WP:OR the info must not contain any original research. You can only cite what the source says. if a source states that an event was a battle it would be named battle and no other.

As per Wp:Rs and Self-published sources (online and paper)

are not to be used in wikipedia as a source since "Anyone can create a personal web page or publish their own book and claim to be an expert in a certain field. For that reason, self-published sources are largely not acceptable. Self-published books and newsletters, personal pages on social networking sites, tweets, and posts on Internet forums are all examples of self-published media."

The book itself as i stated above is a self published book and is not reliable. Rahim231 (talk) 06:26, 16 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I read the “Instead the book states : "In 1987, ISI failed to prevent the KHAD/KGB terror campaign in Pakistan, which led to the deaths of about 324 Pakistanis in separate terror incidents." And decided to add it AfghanParatrooper19891 (talk) 20:15, 10 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The book which you are citing is not a reliable source and is self published and makes exceptional claims which wikipedia does not rely on instead sources which satisfy WP:RS are to be used which i gave below so kindly revert the edit to my version. if you did not understand what i said you can read the whole discussion. Rahim231 (talk) 21:00, 12 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Khad1256

"The results were actually inconclusive the source you provided talks about an air conflict not with campaign + mostlyof KHAD and kgb operation were successfully"

Actually it was my mistake not to cite the previous pages, since the Book from Page#36-39 talks about the Whole "Taking the Offensive in Pakistan" which includes the aerial confrontations, the terror campaign by both Al-Zulfiqar and Khad jointly and the cross border raids. It says that all of these tactics Failed. Thus citing an Operational Faliure.

31-08-2024

@AfghanParatrooper19891

The edit made by you on 15:57, 23 August 2024‎ changed the infobox result from "Operational failure" to "ISI failure to prevent KhAD–KGB operations" with the edit summary written "As per talk page".

Can you explain where it was agreed to edit the result to the one currently in the article ? Above all the result was uncited by removing a cited one. I have already explained above to other users how the source for the Isi failing to prevent the campaign is a self published source which is not considered WP:RS.

Where as the source by Bruce Riedel which satisfies WP:RS States the KHAD-KGB Offensive-Operations inside Pakistan failed to achieve their main Objective to Intimidate Pakistan to halt its support for mujahideen and to defeat them.

you can read it here

https://archive.org/details/whatwewonamerica0000ried/page/36/mode/2up?q=38

Pg#36-39.

Sources

@M Waleed hello there! Hope you’re doing well. I wanted to bring this issue to the talk page in case there was a disagreement. I removed 3 sources and text related to them. As I mentioned in my edit summary, two sources couldn’t be found. Like there is zero trace of them. If you could provide something that backs the part about the spy rings, I’d be happy to reinstate it.

Finally, there is one source I did find, but nothing there states that 90% of international terrorism(1987) occurred in Pakistan. Here’s the source [1]

I looked at page 3 and all over the newspaper. Couldn’t find the quote. That’s a bit concerning. Someguywhosbored (talk) 23:31, 17 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]