Talk:John Norreys

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The articles below are about the same person. Norreys it seems was the Tudor spelling which has mostly changed to Norris nowadays.

The John Norreys page was started 4 Sept 2005 by User:Wetman

The John Norris (soldier) page was started 2 Nov 2005 by User:Shtove

They should be merged. The second is the longer and User:Shtove has done most of the work on it. As I have only made a very small contribution so far I will stand back for the moment in case one of the major contributers feels inclined to make the merge. It does not seem to me to matter which way the merge is done. Obviously this will leave one article to become just a redirect to the other.

I will place this note on the talk pages of both articles.

Op. Deo 20:59, 30 December 2005 (UTC)

Why not follow the usage of the DNB? --Wetman 22:52, 30 December 2005 (UTC)

I now prefer the article title John Norreys over John Norris (soldier)

I said above that I did not have a strong view on which way the merge should be made. I have done some research (non-original I hope!) and have concluded that I now quite strongly prefer Norreys to Norris.

First I note evidence to use Norris rather than Norreys is provided by the respected historian Eric Ives whose 2005 paperback The Life and Death of Anne Boleyn I have studied. He has 60 references in the index to Henry Norris, who was John Norreys' grandfather and was executed by Henry VIII in 1536. I note on a few of the referenced pages in the text that Ives has actually used the spelling Norreys - so the book must have been imperfectly edited to show Norris rather than Norreys. However, if Ives chose this spelling, it is an important and influential pointer to modern usage.

Now I turn to evidence for Norreys rather than Norris.

At [1] it says

Notes: The name Norreys has at least 2 potential derivations: one who came from the north or who lived in the north (there was a word "noreis" or "norreis" meaning a northerner), or from one who cared for others (the word "norrice" for nurse). There are also references to Noreis back in the 12° century and to a Robert le Noris in the 1297 Yorkshire Subsidy Roll.

This explains to me why there are so many Norris spellings to found in Tudor times, and Norreys should be regarded as a spelling variation that came into use in the prominent family of John Norreys, but not to any great extent elsewhere - hence all the Norrises.

That family of John Norreys used the version Norreys there is no doubt at all as the following shows:

John Norreys's signature clearly shows how he signed his name Norreys. (NB this webpage contains a typo Tattendon for yattendon which according to google was duely perpetuated on the web - partly by the original version of the article John Norreys)

In the PCC will index I found the following, which would be taken exactly from the spellings in the wills:

• Sir Francis Norreys or Lord Norreys of Ricott, Berkshire 31 January 1624
• Sir Henrie Norreys or Lord Norreys of Rycott, Oxfordshire 02 July 1601 (John Norreys' father)
• Sir Francis Norreys of Weston on the Green, Oxfordshire 07 September 1669
• Robert Norreys, Mercer of London 08 May 1512
• Henry Norreys, Gentleman of White Waltham, Berkshire 20 June 1605
• James Earl of Abingdon Lord Norreys and Baron of Rycott of Oxfordshire 16 February 1700
• James Earl of Abingdon Lord Norreys and Baron of Rycott 03 February 1700
• Elizabeth Norreys, Spinster of Thame, Oxfordshire 19 August 1737
• Mary Norreys or Norrys 11 December 1747
• The Right Honorable Montague Earl of Abingdon, Lord Norreys and Baron of Rycote of Rycote , Oxfordshire 17 May 1855

The nearest I have got to DNB so far is that the Berkshire history page, which uses John Norreys, claims to be Edited from Leslie Stephens & Sidney Lee's "Dictionary of National Biography" (1891). However, I will make a journey next week to consult a paper copy of the new DNB (the online version is too expensive to subscribe to!)

Strangely, I know someone who spells his name Norreys. I shall have to ask him if he has a continuous descent from these Norreys.

If no evidence can be found of the Norreys family actually changing their name to Norris then I would argue very strongly for the prefered use of Norreys in Wikipedia. As it is, the balance of evidence I have so far found, leads me to prefer the merge of John Norris (soldier) into this article rather than vice versa.

Op. Deo 13:06, 31 December 2005 (UTC)

ODNB's spelling of name

In the Oxford Dictionary of National Biography (2004) the article on John by D.J.B.Trim is under Norris, John (Norreys). There a separate crossref. under Norreys, John which just says "See Norris, John".

In its opening paras the article says "Although his surname is usually rendered Norris, he himself his mother and at least his brother always spelt it Norreys".

The other entries in ODNB for this family are all under the Norris spelling: Norris, Sir Edward (c1550-1603) by Trim and Norris, Henry by E.Ives. But I have have already noted above that Ives plumped for Norris in his book on Anne Boleyn. Trim, who got his PhD in 2002, has followed the same modern fashion that Ives has, but at least he acknowledges that the original spelling was Norreys.

I think I shall investigate other authorities a little further. I want to see what the 1890s DNB said. Also there is according to the ODNB article a biography, Sir John Norreys and the Elizabethan military world, by John S Nolan (1997). I notice this bio is not referenced among the references on the John Norris (soldier) page. I shall take a look at it and check the two articles we have against this bio. It will take me a few days to do this.

Op. Deo 20:16, 4 January 2006 (UTC)

I've just spotted the two posts above. In the longer article I relied principally on the 1922 DNB, and fleshed out his Irish career with other reading. My notes were taken in the early 1990's, so I wasn't aware of the Nolan biog (every Elizabethan has a biog these days). I believe most reference works use Norris, but if the family sought to distinguish itself by using Norreys, then the argument for following their usage is strong. I'm easy, so long as users looking for John Norris (soldier) are redirected to John Norreys. I'll be interested to see what changes may be made from a reading of Nolan - perhaps his continental career needs more detail? If Op Deo is undertaking this, then the merge should take place along with the new edits. I suppose nurse norris is related to nourish. Is Op Deo a rude anagram?--shtove 12:50, 6 January 2006 (UTC)

There was quite a chunk in ODNB by Trim on the continental campaign, but I got distracted in looking at other articles so did not study it in detail. I will, when I go back to the library next week, and I will also study Nolan. As far as Op. Deo is concerned - it is neither an anagram nor rude. It is probably too difficult to waste time on, but one day someone might discover enough to see the answer. It is also possible a partial clue might appear within WP itself one day if some writes a relevant article! Op. Deo 14:05, 6 January 2006 (UTC)

Sir John Norreys and the Elizabethan Military World, by John S Nolan (1997) contains the following explanation of the author's choice of spelling of the name: "Like many Elizabethan names many different spellings are encountered in contemporary documents, Norries, Noritz, Norrys, Norris - most often used by modern historians. Sir John consistently used Norreys. In respect of the man's personal preference, this book follows his spelling with apologies to modern authorities who have chosen otherwise."

Nolan claims that Sir John has been overlooked by modern biographers of the Elizabethan era. In his time Sir John was a figure in the same class of importance as Drake. Nolan worked on Sir John's history for 5 years before publishing the book. It provides a very great deal of well sourced information. I will add a few bits to the article after doing a merge betwen the two Sir John articles, but I can't claim to have done more than dip into a few topics. I am sure a specialist would be able to a better job than I will do. However, I will make a stab at merging John Norris (soldier) into this article. If anyone strongly argues against this choice of the direction of merge they can always move the material back.

Op. Deo 16:46, 11 January 2006 (UTC)

Move of John Norris (soldier) to this article complete

I have completed the move to this article . I will now blank the John Norris (soldier) page and make it a redirect. The edit history of the material moved here will remain on that page, which should be consulted as necessary. I have also incorporated most of my notes from a short examination of Nolan's biog. These covered the period upto 1584. There is more to be extracted from Nolan to give a better balance on his Norreys' later non-Irish campaigns. This would better balance the present emphasis on his work in Ireland. - Op. Deo 20:33, 11 January 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for taking this in hand. There's more to work out, which may take a while, but the first thing to address is that entering John Norris in Wiki Go or Search brings the reader nowhere near this article. Apart from that, perhaps we might concentrate forces: yours on the later continental campaigns, and mine on paring down the Irish aspect (it's quite a long biog as it stands). In the end, we can argue over the significance of his career as "protestant warrior" and "Atlantic colonist". I didn't see a link to your new Henry Norreys article - did I overlook it? I guess that's what led you here in the first place. Regards.--shtove 22:22, 11 January 2006 (UTC)

Hi, shtove. I am not sure what is best to do about John Norris. Perhaps move him to a new page John Norris, poet and philosopher, and the present John Norris page could be changed to become the disambiguation page. Is this the way to do it? I am new to these procedures. I dont think I shall argue much about balance on this one. My comment on balance was mainly to reflect Nolan's somewhat diffident conclusion - after all he studied Norreys for 5 years and I am just a wiki editor who is dabling - interested in history and so finding places where WP has discrepancies or omissions.

I got into this bit of history from reading Ives 2005 paperback on Anne Boleyn, and got interested in the courtiers who were executed. With the aid of WP, I am finding that Tudor, public life has a remarkably connected set of notable players. As far as the link to Sir Henry Norreys is concerned, it is there under the words paternal grandfather. regards -- Op. Deo 22:59, 11 January 2006 (UTC)

I like your changes, but there's a few points:

• too many one-sentence paragraphs;
• the first paragraph in the Anglo-Spanish War section anticipates what is to follow; and,
• the subject is referred to by different names - I'm sure it's better to refer to him as Norreys, rather than as Sir John (and both forms appear in one sentence).

The best way to edit: print out - go through with a fiery pen - re-read - enter changes.--shtove 22:10, 20 January 2006 (UTC)

Your points agreed. If no one else tackles it in the meantime, I will do some more work in a week or so. I want in any case to add a bit more about the later continental campaigns. Also I want to visit Hampstead Norreys at Yattendon Church, and maybe get a photo. The Norreys family also has a grand memorial in Westminster Abbey which would be worth seeing I think. Op. Deo 23:12, 20 January 2006 (UTC)

Rathlin Island expedition

The article states that the expedition to Rathlin Island 1575 was "...under the command of Sir Francis Drake". This is not quite correct; the operation was under the command of the Earl of Essex. Drake's role was restricted to escorting the troop-ships to Rathlin, and to patrol the waters between Rathlin and the Scottish coast to prevent the Scots from interferring. ( Source : John Sugden , “Sir Francis Drake” , Touchstone – Book , published Simon + Schuster,ISBN 0 – 671 – 75863 – 2) 86.41.251.1 00:58, 8 October 2007 (UTC)