Talk:John FitzRobert

Arms

The arms depicted on this page appear to be incorrect. John FitzRobert is said to have worn: quarterly or and gules a bend sable. The ones shown here; or two chevrons gules were worn by a family of FitzRobert of Northamptonshire not Warkworth. I have attached a rendering of the arms he wore. There are a number of sources but you will see a discussion regarding this precise topic at this web site. You may also note the discussion by the author at this page where he suggests that the The National Society of Magna Charta Dames and Barons has made the same error. The author points out the error quoting The Dictionary of British Arms. Family locator (talk) 05:39, 8 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Great stuff, Family locator. I think you've cast enough doubt on the arms currently illustrating the article (which were uploaded from an old Prodigy webpage without any adequate citations to verify their provenance) that I'm going to delete them from the article.

I'd love to add the corrected arms to the page. Do you happen to have a published secondary source we can cite to before making the change? Although I trust the discussions on the webpages are correct, a cite from a book or an antiquarian journal or something similar would help ensure we're in compliance with Wikipedia's verifiability policies. Nevertheless: great catch! Thanks, Rinne na dTrosc (talk) 17:15, 8 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Unfortunately I have not found a site which provides the seals of any that signed the Magna Carta but it was certainly the Lord of Clavering. Clavering is easily found and there are couple of sources but the best might be this: Some feudal coats of arms and others, illustrated with 2,000 zinco etchings from the Bayear tapestry....... by Foster. You can see the listing on page 89 available here which shows the arms of Clavering under the guise of Sir Robert fitz Roger of Clavering who was at Falkirk and thus later. You will see that rendered on this site which shows the arms of those at the Battle of Falkirk and the arms of Clavering (and interestingly his son or at least heir). Another source which shows Clavering is The General Armory of England, Scotland, Ireland and Wales Also on the College of Arms you will see the arms of the De Euro family of Warkworth and Clavering (a later generation again), part of the work by Glover, where you see the arms quartered (and a great deal of inter-marrying by the looks of it). Hope this helps Family locator (talk) 03:58, 10 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

800th Committee

We have an arms painted for the Magna Carta 800th Committee (see John Fitzrobert). The Committee (sponsored by the Queen) has a site (Magna Carta 800th) that ought to be used for sparse pages, to wit John's little bit of information. jmswtlk (talk) 01:26, 11 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Yes that site shows the arms as typically illustrated but they are not the arms of the John FitzRobert of Warkworth. The record of the Magna Carta suggests that it was FitzRobert of Warkworth that was the surety but the arms that are commonly depicted are not his. The arms of Warkworth and Clavering are depicted on this page and are quarterly, or and gules, a bend sable. The arms, or, two chevrons gules, as shown on the Magna Carta Barons site, are another family of Fitz Robert as noted in the General Armoury on this page, but they do not seem to be designed and are stated to be from co. Northumberland and are decidedly different from those of Clavering. For some reason Magna Carta sites carry these arms and I am not sure where it was originally sourced. As an aside, although the estates had been rewarded earlier, the title to Clavering was a reward for service to Edward I and awarded at the Siege of Caerlaverock in 1300 as I mention below. You can read about this on page 4 of the Roll of Caerlaverock. Unfortunately the habit of the family during the period, to name after the father, makes genealogy difficult but the People of Northern England site carry a record of him. John seems to have inherited the estates of Warkworth, Rothbury, and the barony of Whalton, all in Northumberland, as well as holding the Essex manor of Clavering, from his father in 1214, just before the Magna Carta. They, along with Balliol and Umphraville primarily, were major forces in the north-east of England. He seems to have married Ada de Balliol about 1220 (as you mention). Cecilia de Fontaines was her mother, by the way, and Hugh de Balliol her father. John, older brother to Ada, was born (confirmed) 1205 and so she must have been young at the marriage. The marriage was a clearly arranged one; Balliol was an ardent Royalist and supporter of King John, Warkworth not so. John fitz Robert must have been about 30 something at the wedding. They, fitzRobert and Ada had eight children, mostly lost to history as they, with the exception of the girls and the oldest boy, adopted the name Balliol initially and then Eure. To correct your article, as her dower, she brought the manor and estates of Stokesley, which was an enormous dower, and not Barnard castle as that remained in the Balliol family until forfeiture by John de Balliol, King of Scotland (this is covered in Hodgson's work; History of Northumberland, Vol 6). He, John fitzRobert, died in 1240, as mentioned, as Ada is mentioned as holding Linton in Northumberland as a widow that year. Thus he didn't marry twice that I can find and certainly not to Ada's mother. Their eldest son, calling himself Roger fitz John, married Isabel de Dunbar as mentioned in John_FitzRobert. He is also mentioned on the People of Northern England. He was served heir to his father but died in 1248 and prior to his mother. Thus his son, grandsons to Ada and John, were served heir in an Inquisition at her death in July 1251 (Inquisition held 29 July 1251). The oldest, Robert, now calling himself Robert fitz Roger. He must have been very young in 1249 and certainly in ward. As mentioned in the Caerlaverock source his grandmother (although stated as mother in the source it is incorrect) was prepared to pay 1200 marks for his custody (over a million pounds in today's money using average earnings). This coincidentally supports the grandmother perspective as if his mother it would not have been in question. Henry III however gave the wardship to William de Valence who fought on the royalist side during the Baron's war. This brings us to the late 13th Century and the Caerlaverock poem. He also appears in the Falkirk Roll. His son, John, now calling himself John of Clavering by right of Edward I, is served heir to him in 1311. All through this period, in any of the rolls, the family, of Warkworth and Clavering, is depicted as carrying quarterly, or and gules, a bend sable. However, the General Armoury does suggest a knight,a son of Robert, that held or, two chevrons gules, for a short period during the reign of King John. It is of course possible that it was the John FitzRobert but before he inherited Warkworth, although it doesn't seem likely as you would have thought he would have carried quarterly, or and gules, a bend sable a label of three points, unless, of course, he was illegitimate although not recorded as such. I hope this helps clarify the information. I am in process of looking through some of the Balliol pages on wikipedia as they are in need of a clean up. If there is original source material of his seal it would be interesting. Family locator (talk) 06:19, 29 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]