Talk:Jean-Jacques Dessalines

Needs to be revamped

This article needs to be revamped. It is extremely biased and harsh against Dessalines.

"The whole truth and nothing but the truth"?

The wholeness of the Haitian truth is sorely lacking here. While I think it's right and relevant to includes atrocities committed by Dessalines and his lieutenants, and the use of the word "genocide" may be appropriate if a remnant of a defeated race is intentionally exterminated within a nation's borders, these tales (if they even are true—I haven't studied the documentation or followed any relevant scholarly arguments) are totally misleading and distorted if the context is blurred-out or omitted. Napoleon's double-crossing and cold-blooded slow murder of the relatively moderate L'Ouverture showed what any Black leader had to expect from the duplicitous and ruthless French after the Revolutionary period ended. The hideous tactics used by the French to re-subjugate Martinique and restore slavery there shed a harsh light on the Haitian situation; Dessaline's genocide of whites was no more cruel than actions routinely undertaken against African and Amerindian populations throughout most of the New World, up to and including even the present day. If a subject involved white people killing masses of non-white people, the use of the term "genocide" would probably be disallowed by these same Wikipedia writers/editors on the grounds of being too propagandist, emotive, incendiary, etc, etc. In the article on Andrew Jackson, a world-class race-warrior, notably against the Seminole and Cherokee nations the word "genocide" appears not even once in any form. In the article on Leopold II of Belgium, said to be responsible for EIGHT MILLION (!) Congolese deaths, the word "genocide" occurs just once in the text of the article: "In 2010, Louis Michel, a Belgian member of the European Parliament and former Belgian foreign minister, called Leopold II a "visionary hero." According to Michel, "To use the word 'genocide' in relation to the Congo is absolutely unacceptable and inappropriate. ... maybe colonisation was domineering and acquiring more power, but at a certain moment, it brought civilisation." The same could be said of Dessalines: his policies brought some civilization to Haiti after 300 years of genocide against, first, natives (honored by Dessalines in his choosing their name for their land) and then against Africans... Haitian slaves were mostly worked to death and then replaced by fresh imports from Africa. You could with some justification even call Dessalines a warrior against genocide, and a very successful one at that—and do so without in the least whitewashing his own atrocities. UPDATE: I'm leaving my own comment because I think the point about when/whether to say "genocide" is important, possibly important enough to call for guidelines. But after posting this, I read the "Rebuttal" comment below, which makes some other points more eloquently and expertly than I could, and raises questions about white (English) complicity in the "genocide" against the French.

Colored?

Also, it refers to 'black people' and 'colored people'. What is a 'colored person'? Ashmoo 03:45, 17 October 2005 (UTC)

"Colored" is an outdated phrase used to describe anyone who isn't white. It is usually considered by modern day to be a racist remark. -Alex 12.220.157.93 06:42, 28 December 2005 (UTC)

"Colored" in the Caribbean context would mean a person of mixed race. Not a racist term in that context, but a little old-fashioned. --Stewart king (talk) 23:00, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

Rebuttal to biased comments

The statement "Dessalines, who had been born a slave, held a grudge against French people" is simply not true. Dessalines was a general fighting the French Empire. He fought the French soldiers (LeClerc, Rochambeau) sent to enslave Blacks in Haiti, not the French people. You cannot necessarily extrapolate that he hated "French people". At the congress declaring Haiti's Act of Indepence, Dessalines asked each of the assembled generals to pronounce a vow to forever renounce France; to die rather than to live under its domination; and to fight for independence with their last breath.

Dessalines and others responsible for the 1805 Haitian Constitution 1805 Haitian Constitution eliminated distinctions of color: All Haitians were to be "Blacks".

CLR James, the historian, reveals in his book The Black Jacobins, that three Englishmen present at the congress that proclaimed Haiti's Independence were instrumental in bringing about the massacre of the French on the island. The Englishmen were acting as agents of Great Britain; they wanted to put a permanent wedge between the Haitian people and France in order to hold on to their trade monopoly and advance their ambitions in the hemisphere. They told Dessalines that England would trade with Haiti only “when the last of the whites had fallen under the axe,” writes James.

“Those civilized cannibals wanted to drive a wedge between Haiti and France to break all possibilities of unity.... This is one of the most infamous and unjustifiable crimes in this wretched history.”

Haiti continued to be threatened with enslavement by the Europeans; so a military preparedness had to be mandated to protect the new nation. Also, labor had to be regimented because the infrastructure of the country had been devastated by a long twelve year war for Haitian independence.

I doubt if merchants from France were eager to trade with Haiti after the revolution. Also, Thomas Jefferson imposed an embargo against Haiti. France and the U.S. refused to recognize Haiti as an independent country. Thomas Jefferson according to Julius Scott, the Afro-American and Caribbean historian at the University of Michigan remarked "confine this disease to its island" in urging the British to stop trading with Haiti.

The educated class in Haiti were the "light-skinned elite"; the majority of other Blacks had no education and were recently enslaved.

If Dessalines was "reviled by generations of Haitians", why approximately one hundred years later would they name their national anthem after him? The main author's comments just don't make sense. If you have a basis for your comments, provide a source.

Damballa 21:28, 23 July 2006 (UTC)

Titling

Shouldn't this be title "Jaques I of Haiti", in accordance to naming policy? After all, Napoleon Bonaparte's articles is titled "Napoleon I of France"... -Alex, 12.220.157.93 00:38, 27 January 2006 (UTC).

I'd say yes. Do you want to rename the article? 69.112.248.103 04:14, 13 February 2006 (UTC)

How do you rename articles? I'm kinda newish to this. -Alex, 12.220.157.93 22:44, 16 February 2006 (UTC).

I'd say no, because his last name is generally better-known than his first name (which is not the case for Napoleon), as evidenced by the naming of the national anthem (La Dessalinienne) and a city after him. Funnyhat 22:56, 3 June 2006 (UTC)

in respose to the message which questioned the use of the term 'colored'...the term has differetn connotations in Haiti than it did in racist lexicon of the us. The term can also mean creole or basically a racial mixed person of the lighter variant of skin. in certain courtries even today colored is a positive term being of higher social rank than 'black' or 'creole' (it all depends on what carribian island are talking about) I agree that this article is exceedingly bias against Dessalines. Also the fact that he has remained so much popularity in Haiti must be disscussed further. He is in fact the only one of the revolutionary heros of haiti to become a lwa (a god of the voudoun pantheon) there should be somthing on that. 143.229.108.78SLP

Heads will roll

The phrase "heads will roll", according to several results in a google search originated with Hitler in the 1940's. Interestingly, according to Andrew Selsky, the Associated Press' Chief of Caribbean News, the phrase was used by Dessalines in 1802:

"...One voter told me on election day that heads would roll and buildings would burn if Preval didn't win.

"It is a phrase that resonates in Haiti. Army Gen. Jean-Jacques Dessalines uttered those words when he led a rebellion against French troops and colonists in 1802. Many of the French were decapitated, their homes torched. "

http://www.guardian.co.uk/worldlatest/story/0,,-5611684,00.html

Just thought it was interesting and maybe there is a place for it in the article. 69.112.248.103 04:14, 13 February 2006 (UTC)

Overall quality of Dessalines article

Sentences such as: "The black people and other minority groups all fought against this system that he was imposing upon them." are incomprehensible. How are blacks considered to be a minority group in Haiti? This does not make any sense.

There are not many sources given and the view of Dessalines wildly diverges from that of many Haitians and scholars. Reasons for this should be given. 15:30, 10 May 2006 (UTC)

Spelling of the country Haïti vs. Haiti

Why is Haiti spelled Haïti (with accent trema on the first "i" on this page ? 00:59, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

Remove last two sections

I would ask that the last two sections have been filled by an essay. I would sugest that it should be deleted, it does not read as a encyclopadia or at least, move it to the talk page.Francisco Valverde 07:20, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

• Whatever our opinions are, we are in the editing of an encylopaedia. There are many places in the internet were you can express your political views. Wikipedia has to try to be as unbias as possible. --Francisco Valverde 07:27, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

________________________________________________________________________________________

Who should define White systematic terror in Haiti

Publishing this article itself from a bias source is bias in itself. The article in itself is a political statement, if it is not - please provide the basis.

Why should offended Afrogenics not respond to an article that is insensitive and bias to the legacy and contributions of Jan Jak Desalin (Jean Jacques Dessalines) to humanity? Why should African people accept the vilification of their leaders? Why should the African people of Ayiti (Haiti) accept the minimization of their victories over white terror? Why should these questions not be raise in an intellectual forum/platform like Wikipedia?

If Wikipedia provide a platform to those who propagate suppositions, extrapolations, misinformation and factual errors as facts - Why should those responding to these historical errors, white supremacist views use another platform to expose their racist, naive or misinformed views?

If Desalin directed the same wholesale massacres of whites/slave owners as they committed against the kidnapped/stolen Africans of Ayiti - they would not be a race/skin color problem in Ayiti today.

If Desalin was vicious as some white historians portray him to be, the corrupt niggerized/affranchisized elites of Ayiti would not have the ability today to prevent Ayiti from celebrating its 200 year victory over slavery and white supremacist terror. White supremacy have killed and terrorized more Afrogenics in Ayiti and around the world than Desalin ever did to the Europeans.

Today American, European policy makers refuse to let the Ayitian (Haitian) people control their destiny, but at every turn Desalin gave safe passage to Americans living Au Cap Haitien or Jeremie (check the history books, see for yourself) when he had a chance to slaughter them. White supremacists and their agents/their restaveks in Haiti do not offer the same to the African masses of Ayiti.

Why does French brutal and genocidal policies against the Africans of Ayiti are not called massacres but Dessalines reactions their brutality are. Dessalines used the same tactics that the French military and French beneficiaries of slavery use against him and his people.

Where did Dessalines learn these tactics? What was Dessalines experience on the plantation under French hegemony? Should we measure brutality only in color gradation?

How many Europeans were killed, massacred or enslaved by Desalin? How many Africans were killed, enslaved by the whites of Ayiti? How many Afrogenics were kidnapped raped and killed during the slave trade?

How many Afrogenics/Africans/Ayitians must be killed by the French and other appendages of white supremacist terror for it to be a holocaust? How many Africans must be killed, enslaved, terrorized for it to be said that the whites/slaves owners of Ayiti were full of hate, they hated black people or were anti black.

Was Jan Jak Dessalin more hateful, more brutal, more savage and more uncivilized than the French, the Spaniards, the British and the Americans in Ayiti?

Who is in a better place to define terror – Rochambeau, Bonaparte, Las Casas, the children of slave owners or the descendants/children of Boukman, Makandal, Dessalines, Toussaint Louverture, Padre Jean, Charlemagne Peralte, Defile, Benoit Batraville or the millions of African who were kidnapped, tortured, terrorized, labored and died to produce wealth for western capitalist interests?

--Kwameawoyo 19:53, 8 September 2006 (UTC)Kwame Awoyo

Major rewrite

I've done a rewrite, adding a lot of information on Dessalines' life up to the end of the Revolution. The post-revolution sections still need a lot of work. The Revolution section can be fleshed out more - especially regarding the "brutal tactics" used by both Dessalines and his opponents. There should be something on how his actions were viewed by Haitians and French at the time of the Revolution, as well as how they are viewed today. I have left the NPOV tags on until these issues are resolved. Jwillbur 20:07, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

Early Life: Birthplace

Dessalines was either born in Africa OR in Haiti. please rewrite. --Sensodyne 17:54, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

I think the closest historian to the period, Madiou, said he was born on Habitation Cormier. Nobody at the time called him a "bossale", which would have been expected had he actually been born in Africa. There were some African-born slaves who rose to positions of authority within slavery but they were rare. Much more common would be for a Creole slave to be promoted. --Stewart king (talk) 23:03, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

Massacre on the whites of 1804

Did not Dessalines give the order of the massacre on the French whites on Haiti in 1804? If this is true, should't it be in this article? --85.226.42.9 (talk) 16:06, 5 June 2009 (UTC)

Who won the Battle of Crête-à-Pierrot?

At least twice in the article, Dessalines is said to have won the Battle of Crête-à-Pierrot, but the description of the battle (a siege of 20 days in which the French sized the objective) indicates a French victory, as does also the article for the battle itself. The French may have suffered such high casualties as to make the victory too costly, or perhaps the resistance of Dessalines' troops inspired later victories (like the Alamo in the Texan revolt against Mexico), but the battle can't have been a victory for both sides. I note here the contradiction, but do not have the knowledge to edit this or the Battle article; some editor with the requisite expertise should do so. MayerG (talk) 06:31, 28 January 2010 (UTC)

Oh My God no

Omg who wrote this page???? Dessalines did not become the leader under the 1801 constitution - that was Toussaint Louverture's constitution (Haiti was still part of France and was called Saint-Domingue then ). He made himself emperor under the 1805 constitution.

I do not have time to correct this page right now but I hope someone in a very near future will. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Aucun (talk • contribs) 11:17, 28 November 2012 (UTC)

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Logic conflict

Was Dessalines, the "free black man"* who bought Jean-Jacques Dessalines (when he was Duclos), a black man or mixed-race? I assume he was considered black, and therefore this unsourced sentence (in italics) should be excised (it sounds like a fairy-tale to me, and should be sourced). It's the "Nonetheless" that bothers me.:

"Dessalines was embittered towards both whites and gens de couleur (the mixed-race inhabitants of Saint-Domingue). After the defeat of French royalists during the Haitian Revolution, he ordered the killing of all royalists to ensure that Saint-Domingue would be a nation.[5] Nonetheless, after declaring himself Governor-for-Life in 1804, Jean-Jacques Dessalines took his old master Dessalines into his house and gave him a job."

Does anyone know of a reliable source for this statement? Has a myth become the accepted storyline, or did Dessalines, the black slave owner, gain employment from his former slave?--Quisqualis (talk) 18:29, 13 January 2017 (UTC)

*according to an earlier paragraph (not sourced) in the article

Aha! The nonetheless was with respect to the brutality of the massacre of whites and royalists, not with respect to his embitterment towards whites and gens de couleur. I get it now, but it does need sourcing. I'm changing "nonetheless" to "yet."

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Biasedness

No cricitism topic, no sources mentioning his massacres and the repercussions of that massacres at all. If we cannot have a criticism topic to a genocidal leader what more could we have in Wikipedia? They tried to alleviate the blame here, when saying that the executions "were against slave owners" (Like it was justifiable anyway). He ordered the execution of virtually any white person, being men, women, or children. Only priests and artisans were spared (Because they were useful). So i don't think it's too hard to make and balanced and non biased article about a genocidal, especially when the article actually describes him in a positive light. This is absolutely disgusting. Liberal bias in Wikipedia may have some influence in allowing it until now. Genocides here are denied and downplayed!Sawyersx (talk) 19:48, 7 October 2021 (UTC)

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Graph in Genocides Section

The graph of the population of the Dominican Republic appears to have a few discrepancies. In the caption below, and indeed in the graphic itself, the chart appears to show population changes from 1798-1897, which spans a full century, so seems a reasonable (rather than arbitrary) period to display. It covers 100 years beginning from before the Haitian revolution to show the effects the genocidal campaigns had on the Dominican population. Under the first bar, however, the date "1789" appears rather than the "1798" stated in the caption and on the left of the bar graph. Is this a transpositional typographical error? Or was census data not available for the year 1798, so the 1789 figure was used instead? So why not change the caption and graphic to "1789-1897"? Albeit, 109 years is a strangely arbitrary span of time, but it wouldn't be a significant offense in the grand scheme of things. Furthermore, a sentence in the text of the article (same "Genocide" section) mentions the population of the Dominican Republic was 175,000 in 1789, which further adds to the confusion. Is this text a mistake for using the "1789" date rather than the "1798" date? If all the dates are correct, then why does the bar graph disagree with the "175,000" population figure? The first bar in the graph clearly shows a population figure below 150,000, perhaps in the 120,000-130,000 range. Thus, though this bar is labeled "1789" which corresponds to the date mentioned in the text, the population figures do not match up. So which date is wrong? Are both dates wrong? Is one of the population figures wrong? Are both? Is the bar length wrong? Someone please edit to fix this discrepancy. Thank you.66.91.36.8 (talk) 06:16, 31 March 2023 (UTC)

There is no evidence supporting the claim of this massacre. This is right-wing Dominican nationalist is attempting to rewrite history and portray Haitians in a negative light. Oaurelien (talk) 09:28, 18 July 2023 (UTC)

Rectification

Dessalines didn’t kill any French women. It wasn’t the truth. He ordered to kill all who think to maintain slavery on the lands of Haiti. At the same time he asked to protect the health personnel, the engineers. it was not a question of the extermination of French whites. moreover, Dessalines had many white friends and advisers. stop making him look like a jerk. we can understand the fact that he said no to slavery, no to colonial exploitation, no to racial segregation, you wanted him dead. But it's time to stop your bullshit about his memory. 107.123.33.23 (talk) 15:41, 22 August 2023 (UTC)

Wiki Education assignment: Humanities 2 F24

This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 3 September 2024 and 13 December 2024. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): Methelusg1 (article contribs).

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