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Rumours about homosexuality part II

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Here we go again. Please discuss if it is proper and encyclopaedic to include rumours in the article. I thought this discussion was over. I would just hate to start copying and pasting my arguments from the sections above but if I must....--Dr.K. (logos) 01:57, 4 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I would argue that we do not include rumors, but report on notable rumors, and Haider's homosexuality reaches at least that level (in fact, with all the evidence I would not even class it a rumor). --Stephan Schulz (talk) 07:33, 4 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Fair enough. I respect your opinion, but obviously I disagree because I can't picture Britannica incorporating rumours in its articles. Anyway, although I do know about WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS etc., can you give me an example where rumours are incorporated in a similar (i.e not UFO, Conspiracy etc) article? Thanks. Dr.K. (logos) 16:13, 4 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Why do you exclude conspiracy? 9/11 conspiracy theories is a fine article on nothing but rumors. John F. Kennedy assassination deals with rumors. But we also have rumors on the ancestry of Cao Fang, or the death of Edward II of England, on Sally Pederson's potential career and on the love life of Jennifer Fitzgerald. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 22:46, 4 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Well, Stephan, it's the function of the conspiracy article to list all possible rumours. As such it is not a good example of avoiding rumour-mongering whenever possible. Also a conspiracy theory is not as sensitive a subject matter as the biography of a person, living or dead. Your other examples however are convincing. I guess rumours may not be something I would expect to see in Britannica but obviously here they seem to be a legitimate part of some articles. I guess that settles the issue. My apologies to Iron Duke for reverting yesterday. Thank you for your great work. Tasos (Dr.K. (logos) 22:58, 4 December 2008 (UTC))[reply]
Maybe more apropos to our current case are the rumors on the sexual orientation of Cary Grant and Rock Hudson. I would not be surprised at all if EB would contain something of these. In general, WP:NOTPAPER applies - Wikipedia is much more comprehensive than any other general encyclopedia. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 00:25, 5 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks Stephan. I'll check the Britannica articles on Rock Hudson and Cary Grant. It may well be the case. As far as WP:NOTPAPER I agree, but we must also keep an eye on the quality of the info, something which is not always clear. Tasos (Dr.K. (logos) 01:16, 5 December 2008 (UTC))[reply]
Thanks for the apology, Dr. K... very, very rare on WP. Cheers. IronDuke 00:34, 5 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
It was a pleasure Iron Duke. You are one of the most civil and agreeable users I've ever met on WP. Take care. Tasos (Dr.K. (logos) 01:16, 5 December 2008 (UTC))[reply]

The Standpoint article mentioned is quite certain on the subject.

Whatever the actually existing facts of the matter, his activities and #apparent# range of preferences should be noted. As with certain other topics, the exploration on the talk page is as much about (other)people's perceptions of the subject (or certain aspects thereof) as the actual person and what they did.

Pace Chou Enlai on the French Revolution how soon can Haider's place in, and influence on Austrian history and politics be discussed? Jackiespeel (talk) 18:19, 16 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Out magazine has a featured story discussing this but I can't find it online to share so will leave it for now. -- Banjeboi 19:41, 17 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

The mentioned "HOSI" is a political organisation of and for homosexuals. If it would help their cause, they'd tell that they knew the Pope was gay for at least the last 10 years... So, in Austria nobody would give a damn for their story.

And that's how it came to the story about homosexuallity (from the view of a carinthian for whoever cares):

Austria is mainly split into two political parties, SPÖ and ÖVP. And there is that little province Carinthia, the onlyone of nine provinces where Haiders BZÖ is (because of complicated historical reasons) the biggest party and Haider is even Governor. Then Haider dies (however) and they see their chance. At the day of the "accident" thousands of people come to the accident site. In the evening Austrian radio news tell "no alcohol was involved". The next day more and more people come to the site to bring flowers and candles. That can not be! So we hear, he drove with 140 km/h, he was a reckless driver. Doesn't matter - more candles, more flowers. The next day, they tell us, he was drunk (suddenly!). The funeral is planned and 25000 are expected. what signal would THAT be? So the day before the funeral suddenly we hear, Haider came from a gay bar - Carinthia's Governor was gay. (Which did not change the number of funeral guests, by the way). All that information would have been confidential in any other case - the role of the state prosecutor (pledge of secrecy) is not clear until today.

That's the way the story came into life. Maybe the only gay in that whole story is Haider's secretary Petzner. So this should be a warning: don't never ever give a gay man a job, because when you're dead, they may tell the world you were gay, too. (sarcasm!)

I don't think this truth will find it's way into any encyclopedia, but it may give a little insight to interested people. And please think about that, when you give so much room to the homosexuallity rumors in this article... 80.122.198.206 (talk) 21:33, 16 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

The Stefan Petzner subsection states that he never made any statements about his sexuality. What was reaction to being outed in 2000? Was he ever asked about his sexual orientation in interviews? If so, what did he say? Alfred Kinsey (talk) 12:57, 5 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Haider seems to still be viewed in a very positive light by his party and their supporters. He seems to be thought of more highly since he died, despite the fact that a) he caused his own death through his recklessness and b) many members and supporters of his party are anti-LGBT, due to them being conservatives and nationalists. Do his fans make the claim that he was heterosexual, despite overwhelming evidence, including the pictures on the Internet of him kissing young men on the lips and his visit to Staedkraemer, which has a large LGBT flag in its front window? Or do they overlook his sex life as relatively unimportant? Alfred Kinsey (talk) 12:57, 5 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Frequented gay bar(s)?

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Was he a regular / frequent customer at Stadtkraemer, or at any other homosexual establishments? Nietzsche 2 (talk) 01:00, 5 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

He was at that bar immediately before his death.[1] In a quick Google search I don't see any mention of him going there regularly. There is this article, [2], which discusses him getting friendly with young men at a bar, but it doesn't describe it as a gay bar.   Will Beback  talk  01:14, 5 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Believe it or not: Living next to Klagenfurt a few weeks ago I went to the Stadtkraemer to ask. And here's what the barkeeper told me: Haider was never ever there before. And the best: He went out of the bar "as sober as he came"... As I said, believe it or not, but I'd be careful with rumors. And everything that was written in newspapers may not be a "truth" fit for an encyclopedia... 80.122.198.206 (talk) 20:19, 16 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Well, we don't believe it. Too well "informed" to be honnest. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 90.35.142.36 (talk) 16:08, 28 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

He was not gay

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Austrian court said that, so don't spread homo-propaganda. LINK --93.142.170.183 (talk) 22:57, 19 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

It's not our job to decide what is true. Our job is to verifiably summarize reliable sources using the neutral point of view. So, for exmaple, we'd report that some newspapers say he was gay and also report that they were fined for saying so, without deciding who is right.   Will Beback  talk  23:38, 19 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I understand, but as you noticed Austrian court sentenced every newspaper who further call Haider as "gay" must pay 100.000 euros. --93.142.158.87 (talk) 12:06, 21 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]
That may be true but is a legal concern that cannot be used to determine a person's sexuality. I believe quite a few gay men have won similar court orders but later were revealed to in fact be gay. I have no idea if this might be one of those cases but we certainly can lean on reliable sources as to what can be reported. -- Banjeboi 19:03, 23 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Moreover, the court (according to the linked source) ruled that claiming that Haider was gay is "breach of personal and privacy rights", not that it's false. --Nemo 20:26, 21 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Furthermore, he's now dead, and you can't defame the dead; otherwise historians would be out of a job.
Nuttyskin (talk) 15:28, 28 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]


I just removed the recently added "bisexual politician" category, because the article (as it is today) does not make such a claim.
Personally, I am not convinced that he was gay or bisexual, and I am not convinced that he was not.
But if we add such a claim to the article, it would have to be supported by a source. The same standard should apply to categories. So I will (for the moment) also remove the LGBT tag.
-Austrian (talk) 15:28, 8 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
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Circumstances of Death

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There is doubts about the official version of the accident. This has been documented in "Jorg Haider Unfall, Mord oder Attentat by Wisnewski Gerhard". --105.11.172.131 (talk) 12:16, 8 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Indeed. I have also read of and heard of modifications made to Haiders VW Phaeton because it had some bulletproof parts, so it was modified (they say they compensate the extra weight by increasing the power of the motor), possibly also with some electronics (Engine control unit?) and something they have in America called OnStar. The conclusion was that the possibility could not be ruled out, the possibility that the accident was induced remotely by exploiting vunerabilities known to the attackers. Then a Canadian filmmaker also made a documentary about former intelligence officers in Israel who work in big IT companies, and particularly a company focused on hacking cars[1]. Here is a youtube video-link; ww.youtube.com/watch?v=1zoOJxQZPGc 126.209.12.35 (talk) 20:31, 16 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

References

  1. ^ http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1zoOJxQZPGc
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