Talk:International maritime signal flags

Semaphore

The following text appears next to K: "I wish to communicate with you by...":

1) Morse signaling by hand-flags or arms;

2) Loud hailer (megaphone);

3) Morse signaling lamp;

4) Sound signals.

"1) Morse signalling by hand-flags or arms" is of course incorrect. It should read "Semaphore signalling by hand-flags or arms" Everybody got to be somewhere! (talk) 19:55, 21 October 2015 (UTC)

"Of course"??? I believe the ICS says "Morse". Have you checked? ~ J. Johnson (JJ) (talk) 23:47, 21 October 2015 (UTC)

Flags in the image

I was looking at the photo of the two ships shown in the picture, and it appears they've just organized their flags into alphabetical order, with the numbers interspersed between every 3 letters:

ABC1DEF2GHI3JKL4MNO5PQR6STU7VWX8YZ

Does this arrangement have any significance? Or is it just something someone did for purely decorative purposes? Lurlock (talk) 15:56, 2 February 2016 (UTC)

Interesting question. I have a vague recollection of seeing something many years ago of a standard order for displaying the flags. I don't recall if it was for the Navy, or some yacht club, or if it was this ordering, or some other. So, of course, I Google: "dress ship flag order". And the very first hit (at http://www.sailorschoice.com/seamanship/dress_pennants.htm) suggests this order:

• A B 2 U J 1 K E 3 G H 6 I V 5 F L 4 D M 7 P O Third Repeater R N First Repeater S T Zero C X 9 W Q 8 Z Y Second Repeater

The same order is found at http://www.gettysburgflag.com/blog/flag-information/dressing-ships/, which has more information. It also says: "Sometimes a navy will prescribe a specific flag order for a war ship in order to ensure that there are no hidden meanings conveyed or interpreted by the order of the flags." It goes on to say that "in most cases, a seaman selects the order of his flags ..." - but not in the U.S. Navy, that being just too much of a temptation for mischief.

Yes, interesting enough to be added somewhere, I think. ~ J. Johnson (JJ) (talk) 23:12, 2 February 2016 (UTC)

I'm no expert, but those don't look like U.S. (or any other nation) navy ships. (Does any modern navy still use sailing ships any more?) It appears to be of Swedish origin, based on Google-translation of the text on the image page. Though that doesn't mean the ships are necessarily Swedish, just that the photographer probably is. Not sure if that helps any... Lurlock (talk) 21:02, 4 February 2016 (UTC)

Huh? They are not actually "ships", but many navies have a sailing ship or two for training purposes. Most likely the vessels pictured are civilian, but so what? Civilians are allowed to dress ship. ~ J. Johnson (JJ) (talk) 00:07, 5 February 2016 (UTC)

No big deal, I was just pointing out that any official navy standards are not likely to be relevant for these vessels (boats, ships, whatever you want to call them). Not sure if there's some standard for Swedish civilian ship dressing (assuming that's what they are) that might be what we're seeing, or if the owners of these boats just chose this arrangement themselves for decoration... Lurlock (talk) 22:38, 5 February 2016 (UTC)

Note re Alpha

I removed the rather emotive and unhelpful language in the notes to the Alpha flag. Also the See discussion on Talk as this is not recorded there. The text removed is as below:

"-- Changing this to 'alpha' is how we identify illiterate idiots. -- -- #### ATTENTION: "ALFA" IS THE CORRECT SPELLING; SEE DISCUSSION ON TALK PAGE BEFORE CHANGING. #### --"

The Alfa spelling does seem unlikely, however, given that it is clearly from the Greek as is Delta, and that even the American Webster keeps the Alpha spelling. If there is a reason perhaps it can be kept on the talk page. Ex nihil ^(talk) 02:03, 21 September 2016 (UTC)

Whether you deem Alfa "unlikely" or not doesn't come into it. Try checkng a source or two. An authoritative source.

Emotive? Sure, what of it? I'm a bit fed up with a long-running drip of those who are so full of themselves, so egoistic, that they can't be bothered to LOOK IT UP IN THE SOURCES. If you can suggest language that would be more helpful in keeping the flies off please do so. Until then I am reverting. ~ J. Johnson (JJ) (talk) 00:05, 24 September 2016 (UTC)

OK, I can see it's important to you, could you maybe give us any source? The ONLY one I found is in the flag list in the Wikipedia article itself, all other flag lists from around the world have the Greek. The radio procedure alphabet has alpha, everything has alpha. Even Merriam-Webster has it 'alpha', so its not a US English thing. The word is clearly from the Greek, I think you'd agree, and I could find absolutely no references whatsoever that anybody spells that letter 'alfa' other than that Wiki flag list. All I get is Alfa Romeo cars and things like that. You seem passionate about this, I would really just like to understand where your alfa came from. Leave the page as is if you wish, I am just intrigued as to how this started. Ex nihil ^(talk) 00:36, 24 September 2016 (UTC)

What's important to me is accuracy. As to sources, see http://www.seasources.net/PDF/PUB102.pdf for the American edition of the ICS. While this is a crappy article that I hate to grace with any more effort than needed, I have added a citation, and a link to the ICS article. The "alpha" spelling is specifically English, but the International Code of Signals serves eight other languages, including Italian and Spanish, which spell that word "alfa". ~ J. Johnson (JJ) (talk) 20:21, 24 September 2016 (UTC)

I toned down the language here, comments such as 'illiterate idiots' have no place in Wikipedia, it's a community and we are supposed to be building an encyclopaedia as friends. I have no problem with using US English here but that doesn't make everybody else's English 'wrong'. Actually, US English is a minority in the English speaking world and even the Merriam-Webster, which is actually American, has 'alpha'. Italy uses 'alfa' because it Italian, not English. Anyway, let it go. Consider checking out this idea as a radical alternative Ex nihil ^(talk) 01:05, 4 October 2016 (UTC)

I've reverted your last change, as I find your wording rather incomprehensible. But please feel free to try again.

Your comment here is a bit of a stumper. What you seem to have failed to grasp is that whatever Merriam-Webster – or for that matter, any dictionary – has for the English spelling of the first letter of the Greek alphabet is immaterial. The issue here is the correct spelling of the name of a flag in the International Code of Signals, and that is set by an international standard. Consider checking the source (see link above). ~ J. Johnson (JJ) (talk) 22:17, 5 October 2016 (UTC)

Dear J Johnson, neither Alfa nor Alpha are 'wrong'. In Britain, South Africa, New Zealand, Canada, Australia, India and many other places it is 'Alpha'. In America it is 'Alfa' in the example you give but it is easy to find others such as this totally OK American example. The US English or UK English or NZ English does not matter, what matters is that we are all being told by an advocate of American spelling that our spelling is 'wrong', and that we are 'illiterate idiots' for thinking otherwise. We are hurt and offended by this ethnocentric opinion. If the truth be known, the spelling is derived from the Greek considering that other Greek letters are invoked in the flag system and the alpha flag is the first in the ALPHAbet, consequently, maybe the Greek should probably prevail over English or US. The alpha we are talking about is this Alpha. I am Australian, but even so, I know that in US English the first letter in the Greek alphabet is spelt 'alpha'. The flag list posted in Wikipedia gives 'alfa', etymologically this is probably incorrect but that's OK, that's the way you guys in US want to do it and I'm cool with that, it's a big world. In Australia it is certainly 'alpha' but here is a Canadian version. Please, we are not 'illiterate idiots' for not being American; there are better ways to win friends and influence people. Ex nihil ^(talk) 11:01, 6 October 2016 (UTC)

You are totally barking up the wrong tree; all of your hurt and offense is self-inflicted as you have totally missed what I am saying. Note that (contrary to your statements) I am NOT saying that any variety of English (not even American) spells the first letter of the Greek alphabet any way other than "alpha". However, this argument is not about the spelling of the common English word "alpha".

The "flag list" you rather dismissively refer to is the International Code of Signals, an international standard that spans nine languages (and a lot more than flags), which shares the 'Alfa' spelling with various other English language spelling alphabets. 'Alfa' (in this context) is not the common word; it is the name of the flag (and of the code word). To insist, on the basis of your English language parochialism, that it be spelled differently is akin to insisting that the name of a certain airline be spelled "Quantas", because English always follows 'q' with 'u'. Right?

Before you further undermine your credibility (and diminish good feeling) you should READ THE SOURCES provided, the authoritative sources, such as the English version of the ICS. (And not just any bastardized rendering you find on the Internet.) "Alfa" is not "probably incorrect", it is definitely and demonstratively correct. And I remind you that those who don't read the sources are no better than those who can't. ~ J. Johnson (JJ) (talk) 19:53, 6 October 2016 (UTC)

History Missing

This article needs an historical section to describe the invention and development of signal flags. I was prompted to look at this article after viewing the Dutch film Michiel de Ruyter (known on Netflix as Admiral), which credited Netherlands Admiral Michiel de Ruyter as inventing an improved signal flag system in the 17th Century. --Zeamays (talk) 03:52, 11 December 2016 (UTC)

Indeed, I think there is much historical development, and not the least in languages other than English, which would be of great interest. And if you can add any of that, that would be great. However, I don't consider this article to be of high quality, nor well-conceived. I would suggesting working on Maritime flag signalling, which already has some bare-bones history. ~ J. Johnson (JJ) (talk) 23:41, 11 December 2016 (UTC)

Could use a picture of signal flags flying

I am glad to see you immediately removed the utterly worthless (as I elaborated at Talk:International Code of Signals#On restoring the ICS graphic) picture of the O'Brien's grandiloquently named "flag locker". It belongs no where, not here, and certainly not at ICS.

And while I appreciate (and even laud as the right idea) a picture of a ship flying signal flags, the one you have inserted is quite inadequate. It is first and predominately a picture of a ship, and only incidentally flying signal flags. The flags on the port halyard are indistinct, and at first I didn't even see the starboard flags. (Only when looking at an enlargement, and knowing where the starboard halyard is, and recognizing Hotel, did I recognize the top flag as not being part of the superstructure. Ohh!!)

So we could use a picture of a string of signal flags in use. I did look for some a while back, but no luck in finding anything suitable and in the public domain (or CC licensed). Perhaps it would be worthwile to look again? Part of the problem is that the more interesting examples (i.e., of multiple flags) don't happen in port, and pictures taken while underway are harder to come by. What we need are (first of all) good pictures, showing the flags well (most amateurs muff this), and recognizably, close-up but with enough of the spar or whatever the halyard is hung from to give some context.

If you can find any, that would be super! Or perhaps you can find someone to take some pictures, and then contribute them? ~ J. Johnson (JJ) (talk) 21:35, 24 June 2017 (UTC)

Numbers

Shouldn’t we use the basic English names for the numbers? CoconutLord80 (talk) 01:12, 9 November 2019 (UTC)

What are you talking about? Do you see a problem somewhere? ♦ J. Johnson (JJ) (talk) 02:36, 9 November 2019 (UTC)

ANSWER pennant as decimal point or fraction

As in the ICS system, the NATO standard also specifies that the ANSWER pennant can be used to mean a decimal point, or fraction:

(ATP-01 Vol II Edition G from 2016, Chapter 1 Section 193 "Fractions"):

ANSWER is used in the text of signals to indicate the decimal point or one-half.

This is further codified in Chapter 2, section 203 in the "Single Special Flag/Pennant Table" for "ANS":

Meaning: In text of signals: Decimal point or one-half.

Unless there are any objections, I'll go ahead and make the edit to add this to the "Number Flags" section of this article.

Donutsonhudson (talk) 20:05, 12 November 2020 (UTC)