Talk:Innocenzo Leonelli

Inquiring minds

Hey Jbhunley (and anyone else who takes an interest!), circling back because these entries had piqued my curiosity and I had a couple questions (one on content, one on style) that I'd meant to circle back to:

• The content question is really for we the ignorant (late) modernists: I find myself wondering what...jurisdiction, I suppose ("nation-state" is probably anachronistic)--basically, who exactly Leonelli would have been fighting for? Was this the Vatican's army? a specific Italian city-state? other? If there's a bit more context available to give, it might help a lot for those of us who can't automatically place a figure like this in history (given my own background it's a bit embarrassing that I can't, but then, we hope encyclopedia entries will be accessible even/especially to those who don't have any personal acquaintance with a topic.)

• Then I also wondered about describing religious convictions--I realize as a general matter WP describes the views of individuals/groups in the terms of their choosing (probably the most prominent example being pro-life/anti-choice/anti-abortion/pro-choice) but at the same time, neutral tone obliges us to make clear that these terms reflect the individual/group's perspective rather than endorsement by the encyclopedia. The potential tension in these obligations came to mind in a few places in this entry (heretics, 'poor souls', so forth), but I was loathe to make any changes as you have such a lovely prose style and almost inevitably a neutrality edit will make the entry read as much more flat-footed. So I thought I'd just start by asking your thoughts on this dilemma.

Anyway, not terribly urgent questions (especially on the latter, the displacement of several centuries removes some of the time-sensitivity! but still, how we talk about history matters to the present day) but would be interested to hear your thoughts when/if you have an opportunity. Innisfree987 (talk) 00:35, 20 June 2018 (UTC)

@Innisfree987: your questions/comments are very on point. Unfortunately, in both cases, the problem comes down to the source material. The sources I have are mostly biographical dictionary blurbs which make many assumptions about the reader's knowledge. For instance, I am all but certain that "fighting heretics in Bohemia and Hungary" refers to the Bohemian Revolt but whether he was with an organized state force or not is not mentioned. The 'general' he was following is mentioned but it could have been a freebooter or 'crusader' force. When he was fighting in Lombardy he was definitely a freebooter/adventurer but those groups were often sanctioned by someone in power rather than being flat out mercenaries but who the 'heretics' in that case is a mystery to me. I do agree that 'heretics' is not a great word choice but I do not know enough about that conflict. I assume he was fighting with the Catholic League (German) but whether he was part of the force or just part of an group of adventurers fighting against same people… If you have any familiarity or insights that would be great.

This also shows up in his time as a hermit. There is no mention of the specific order he was a member of. As I understand it a 'hermit' is cloistered yet he is said to converse with 'the poor, sick, destitute and prisoners' and to engage in 'begging'. With so much uncertainty – whose prisoners? was he seeking the 'poor, sick, etc' out in the community? going to the hospital? did they come to the hermitage?, how is he a hermit yet engaged outside the hermitage? etc. – I was afraid I would make incorrect assumptions. Again, any ideas on how to make it more NPOV would be appreciated. Jbh ^Talk 17:11, 23 June 2018 (UTC)

Ah, this all makes very much sense. For additional sources, I wondered if you'd already seen this one, which seems to have a few more details about geography and religious conflicts in play? But while my Italian is okay enough to muddle through the couple narrative paragraphs, it's not strong enough to assess the quality of the source/what it's based on (it seems to refer to a couple other sources--even citing page numbers?) so maybe you've already reviewed and rejected it. I'll continue to poke around as I can. The other sourcing idea that came to mind was to ask over at WP:WikiProject Middle Ages--I know this is early modern by date but strikes me (admittedly a non-specialist) as having enough trailing threads of the "long Middle Ages" that folks might be aware of relevant sources; and frankly I just have a general awe for the research abilities of medievalists!

Just saw the notes you're adding--you read my mind, was just going to propose that as a way to acknowledge some of the context questions. Looks great.

Minor idea: what do you think of mentioning his mother, since her name is known? One never knows when more sources might turn up and it's nice to have those touchstones already in place. (Here's another source mentioning her in case it's of use but I think mostly it says things you already know--maybe with the exception of being another point in favor of idea he was born in 1591 rather than 1592? But again, I am not in a position to say which sources are more authoritative.)

Looking very good--you should write more often! Innisfree987 (talk) 19:24, 23 June 2018 (UTC)

Yeah, I'm no use for picking out what's the best source but FWIW I do note there seems to be variance in reporting his death date as well: 1627, 1622, April 18, 1621? A note could be good for explaining which seems the most authoritative. Innisfree987 (talk) 19:32, 23 June 2018 (UTC)

Thank you! Two of those sources are new to me; Dizionario di erudizione storico and Miscellanea francescana di storia, di lettere, di arti. I will look through them later in the week. My Italian is pretty much non-existent but I can get a reasonable translation by judicious use of a dictionary and playing with GTransalte (depending on how one breaks up sentences it will give different translations, some better than others) or, if worse comes to worse, getting a translator. I am pretty used to digging meaning out of documents which are unclear but that is also why I stick much closer to the sources for writing here than I would otherwise. It can be easy to miss connotation and implication especially when, as here, one is dealing with separation in time as well as culture and language.

Reading Dizionario though, on first blush I think the 1621 date is probably a typo. That is in the time period (1620-1622) when other sources report first became a hermit. I have been using Vernarecci (1903) for birth and death dates because it seems to have been pulling its information from records of the Church's examination of his life and works and from the manuscript Brief Tale of Life and Works of the Venerable Servant of God Innocentto Leonelli of Fossombrone as well as mentioning some other biographical sources.

As to the mother, I just mention her in the infobox because all that I have on her is she was "exceptionally pious". You are correct that she may be interesting. She is of the same generation and family as Maria Vittoria De Fornari Strata. A personal connection with her could explain his mother being described as "exceptionally pious" in the 16/17th century Papal States. It would also explain her other son, Carlo/Ignatius of Jesus, choosing the Discalced Carmelites. Right now that is all supposition and, even if I could find documentation of the links, would be way into OR.

I certainly never thought this family would be so interesting when I started on Ignatius or that he would be as enmeshed in the geopolitics of the time as he was. Jbh ^Talk 18:06, 25 June 2018 (UTC)

Mind reading?

The article says: "...whose fierce religiosity led him to vow to fight only enemies of the Catholic faith." How would it be possible to know this as a fact? This is not the correct style for a WP article. PopSci (talk) 10:26, 10 July 2018 (UTC)

I'm not saying he didn't fight only enemies of the Catholic faith, but that we will never be able to know his internal reasons for doing so.PopSci (talk) 10:28, 10 July 2018 (UTC)

I have only read some of the sources but in those, several refer to his "religious zeal", so that bit is "verifiable"--doesn't seem within our purview to get into whether or not it's "true". Would you prefer something like: "...a soldier of fierce religiosity who took a vow to fight only enemies of the Catholic faith"? Innisfree987 (talk) 16:29, 10 July 2018 (UTC)

But it's still kind of an opinion. (BTW I like the Catholic Church.) We can report that sources have commented on his zeal, but I don't think we can report as a fact that he really had it. Also, pardon me for saying this...but the article sounds like it was copied and pasted from an older Catholic source. That makes it less objective sounding, less interesting, and (yes) less inspirational than it could be.PopSci (talk) 19:03, 10 July 2018 (UTC)

It most definitly was not copy/pasted from anywhere. One of the issues though is that none of the sources were really in-depth so each point ended up being a rewording of translations of Italian source material while trying to avoid statements/phrasing which went beyond what the sources could support. If anyone can come up with better wording that does not go beyond the information in the source material that would be great.

As to fierce religiosity; his religious zeal was commented on both in the older sources and in Lupieri (2003). There is probably better and more in-depth material in the biography written during the clerical investigation prior to his veneration but, as far as I know, that exists only as a manuscript. At least one of the sources had access to that document or possibly related it through an unspecified intermediary source. Jbh ^Talk 19:33, 10 July 2018 (UTC)

I will try making a few changes. If you don't like them change them back.  :-) PopSci (talk) 00:49, 11 July 2018 (UTC)

@PopSci: The problem with this edit [1] is that it goes beyond the source material and is not necessarily accurate. He did not necessarily 'fight on the Catholic side' - the implication being he was fighting with the organized Catholic forces of the Catholic League or the forces of the Papal States; in at least one instance he was a freebooter/adventurer and there is no information that he fought specifically with the organized forces of the Catholic League or any other organized force. It is possible and even likely that he was fighting with an a group of rich adventurers.

The issue is that the source material is very shallow and does not give sufficient context to make generalizations ie we know who he fought against but, because of the martial chaos of the time, we can not say who he fought with or in what context he fought against the heretics. Jbh ^Talk 01:13, 11 July 2018 (UTC) Last edited: 02:38, 11 July 2018 (UTC)

No problem. I don't have any other ideas on how to improve the article.PopSci (talk) 00:10, 12 July 2018 (UTC)