Talk:Icelandic grammar

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Personal pronouns

Are these few sentences explaining that Icelandic has free word order neccesary? It's weird under the description of the personal pronouns, and neither is it specific for the grammar of this language. As for the inclusion of "hán": I disagree. Including it is more prescriptive than it descriptive. It's a neologism, I couldn't say in how much everyday use it is in Icelandic. Anyway, gender-neutral pronouns in English and German aren't included in the list of pronouns on those respective Wikipedia articles either, at least not with an explanation. Thoughts? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 131.211.215.76 (talk) 17:29, 13 February 2016 (UTC)

Assessed as Start class

I have assessed this article as a "Start-Class". It could be a B-Class, if only the section on Syntax was expanded and -at least- some references were included. --Michkalas 17:11, 22 April 2007 (UTC)

I have to praise the creator of this page (and by extension, all those whom have contributed to it). This is a very clearly set out and explained article. Well done folks!

To Helikophis

You might want to start a User page of your own, since you have a name and are clearly involved. Anyway, thanks for the corrections. Cheers Io 19:25, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

Syntax

Despite its length, the article is far from complete. Regarding syntax, it is one of the most difficult things to summarize in any language. It will be done in time, but as for now, the main focus seems to be on morphology, which in the case of Icelandic will require a great deal of work. I drop in now and then, but to be honest, a full treatment exceeds the time, that Max and I have to spare. As an example, a good treatment of verbs is totally lacking (no offence, Max). :-) All in all we need standard templates and then people willing to fill them in. As for the verbs, to take an example, we have 4 classes (or three, depending on perspective) of weak verbs, 6 of strong verbs, five of reduplication verbs, then there are the auxiliary verbs and at least one which is totally irregular. All of the classes have their exceptions - the strong verbs are notorious for that. So to provide an overview of the complete system, a lot of input is needed. Then we have about 60 paradigms for nouns, somewhat fewer for the adjectives and then most of the pronouns have to be presented - they each have their peculilarities. And lastly, we would have to include those adverbs, which allow comparison. That was just for the morphology. All in all, it is an enormous task, and I hereby ask Max to provide the templates (he's good at it) and then to ask others to step in. All the best Io 19:25, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

Reflexivity

Can we somehow merge the two sections on reflexivity, we now have two which can be confusing. Max Naylor 20:56, 3 June 2007 (UTC)

It is not the same thing. The reflexive pronoun is a chapter of its own. The other part is just a case of case government although the meaning may be comparable in some cases. Then we also have the so called middle voice for verbs (which I'm inclined to call a verb class instead of a voice), which may or may not be reflexive. These do not mix easily. Cheers Io 03:27, 21 June 2007 (UTC)

Sound shifts

There are more of those than listed here, and the rules are more complicated than one might gather from reading this, but this is a very good start, and covers the most common varieties. Two changes, in particular, are missing, namely A-Fracture, whereby e ⇒ ja and U-Fracture, where e ⇒ jö. (In this context, fracture is apparently synonymous with breaking.) The shifts now in the article are U-Umlaut and I-Umlaut, respectively. Keep up the good work, but it should be easy, when I find the time, to give a full list. At least I have them, it's just a matter of time. (An interesting one, which is no lnger active, but shows up in various places is the A-Umlaut, where i ⇒ e and a ⇒ o. An example of the latter is, e.g., fugl (bird), which is etymologigally the same as English fowl, or the pair gull - gold). Cheers Io 22:32, 30 June 2007 (UTC)

PS The word shift is somewhat imprecise. It could mean an umlaut, an ablaut or a fracture and probably other things as well. Cheers Io 22:34, 30 June 2007 (UTC)

Árnastofnun has both banönum and bönunum on their webside Beygingarlýsing Íslensks nútímamáls. Same for sandali but not arabi. (And I'm quite sure I have heard Örubum) I therefore think that saying these words are exeptions might be to strong but have no idea how to word it instead.

Acc. - nom.

Surely the examples below are in the nominative and not accusative as the article said? I changed it to say nominative.

masculine: hvalur—“(a) whale” becomes hvalurinn—“the whale” feminine: klukka—“(a) clock” becomes klukkan—“the clock” neuter: heimilisfang—“(an) address” becomes heimilisfangið—“the address” Nothingbutmeat (talk) 15:06, 24 April 2008 (UTC)

Many German speakers find familiar...

Many German speakers will find Icelandic declension familiar, the article reads.

But in German, unlike in Icelandic, nouns have no real inflection, most of the cases job is done (in German) by articles, pronouns and adjectives. Icelandic, by contrast, still sports a real nominal inflection, so the purported familiarity vanishes. 78.50.247.233 (talk) 21:08, 17 May 2009 (UTC) Wojciech Żełaniec

Added the PDF to the external links section. Added a concession to the German and Icelandic languages section. Also highlighted an example that proves the statement. (Back up from a research paper) Added linguist Annie Zaene, and citations. Derekrodenbeck (talk) 02:19, 22 November 2017 (UTC)

The cases and the definite article

I have a question concerning the table below. How does one combine the cases and the definite article, that is, is the definite article for a particular gender the same no matter which case we talk about?

number	case	masculine	feminine	neuter	neuter
singular	nom.	hattur	borg	glas	gler
	acc.	hatt	borg	glas	gler
	dat.	hatti	borg	glasi	gleri
	gen.	hatts	borgar	glass	glers
plural	nom.	hattar	borgir	glös	gler
	acc.	hatta	borgir	glös	gler
	dat.	höttum	borgum	glösum	gler(j)um
	gen.	hatta	borga	glasa	gler(j)a

--Oddeivind (talk) 17:56, 30 September 2009 (UTC)

No is it not. The definite article is either attached or unattached and is declined along with the word with which it stands. You can see the declension of the unattached definite article in all genders here, and the declension of the words in the table above with and without the definite article attached here: hattur, borg, glas, gler --Cessator (talk) 18:22, 30 September 2009 (UTC)

Thank you for the information. I was actually not aware that Icelandic also has an unattached definite article. I thought this disappeared already in Old Nordic (Old North Germanic). I read a boook written by a Norwegian language expert, bit I might have misunderstood him. Is the unattached definite article placed before or after the noun?

Do you also have similar links to some weak nouns in the three genders? --Oddeivind (talk) 20:00, 30 September 2009 (UTC)

It is placed before the noun (or adjective). As an example one could mention a famous book title by the Nobel laureate Halldór Laxness, Hið ljósa man. Examples of weak nouns: bolli (masculine), húfa (feminine), auga (neuter) --Cessator (talk) 20:39, 30 September 2009 (UTC)

Thanks again! Do you happen do know whether there has been any changes in the inflections since the time of Snorre Sturlason? --Oddeivind (talk) 21:40, 30 September 2009 (UTC)

Better to ask someone else that. But I would say the changes are only minor ones. Reading Snorri (at least the prose parts) is not too difficult for Icelanders today. A gloss may be required for the occasional word, and most modern editions have modern punctuation, but a translation is not required (and does not exist into modern Icelandic). --Cessator (talk) 23:04, 30 September 2009 (UTC)

I also have a question regarding the tables showing the 'no article' and 'definite article' suffixes. In certain categories, masculine singular for example, there are four separate declensions. Are these four declensions for each case or are there 4 different masculine noun classes in Icelandic, each taking a different form of the article? I feel as though this is unclear.Tknotrnce558 (talk) 17:39, 11 May 2010 (UTC)

Just to clarify. If we go by the historical classification, we have the following declension classes for strong nouns:

Masculine: A-, wa-, ia-, ja-, i- and u-stems plus a few relics of consonant stems.

Feminine: Ō-, wō-, jō, iō- and i-stems plus a few irregularities, leftovers from the consonant classes and the word hönd which is the sole feminine survivor of the u-class..

Neutral: A-, wa-, ia-, and ja-stems plus the relic fé (u-class).

Those are all declension classes. The weak nouns then have a system of their own.

I hope this answered the question. Regarding the article, when and how it is suffixed is another chapter. All the best Io (talk) 17:53, 3 August 2010 (UTC)

By the way: Where did you find 4 different masculine declensions on this page? There aren't any, except for hattur. All the best Io (talk) 18:08, 3 August 2010 (UTC)

Possessive pronouns

The presentation of the possessive pronouns is a bit confusing. When it comes to the singular and plural I first thought one by plural meant the possessive pronouns "our', "your" and "their", but taking a second look and relating it to modern Norwegian, I realized that one by plural is thinking of one person owing several things. E.g. one person could have several dogs. Take the following English sentence: "My dogs ate all their food". The possessive pronoun in the subject (nominative) would here be "mínir" in Icelandic". The confusing part is that many people seeing the table would think that one by plural is thinking of the first person plural possessive pronoun "our". This was surely what I first thought, but I quickly realized that this was not the case. Anyway, the text should also present the different forms of "our', "your" and "their". --Oddeivind (talk) 16:52, 30 December 2009 (UTC)

For more than one owner, we use the genitive of the corresponding personal pronoun, in this case in the same order, okkar - ykkar - þeirra. So My children is börnin mín (yes, with the article), but our children is börnin okkar. Since okkar and the rest already are the genitive plural, they are not inflected further. Io (talk) 18:20, 3 August 2010 (UTC)

Comparative and Superlative Adjectives

Perhaps there should be a subsection in adjectives dedicated to comparative and superlatives forms of them. Tknotrnce558 (talk) 01:54, 12 May 2010 (UTC)

Icelandic Past Tenses

I've been looking everywhere for a good explanation of when to use the Icelandic different past tenses (in particular, when to use:

Ég gekk inn í húsið.

Ég hef gengið inn í húsið.

Ég er genginn inn í húsið.

), but I can't seem to find anything consistent about it. I believe, that it would be very useful for folks learning Icelandic to find a better section on the past tenses in Wikipedia. I tried to tackle the differences here, but I'm not sure whether the details are correct (feel free to improve my examples if you have anything better):

• Simple past (formed with the indicative past form of the verb):

Ég gekk inn í húsið.

I entered the house.

Expresses an action in the past with no connection to the present. It may be therefore infered from the sentence above that I'm not in the house anymore. It is a perfective or aorist past (see aspect). Corresponds to English simple past.

• Simple past subjunctive (formed with the subjunctive past form of the verb):

Ég gengi inn í húsið.

I would have entered in the house.

Ég fer úr skónum, til að ég gengi í húsið.

I took off my shoes, I order that I entered the house.

Þó að ég gengi inn í húsið, sá ég ekkert skrýtnara.

Though I entered the house, I didn't see anything more peculiar.

Sagt er, að ég gengi inn í húsið.

It is said that I entered the house.

Expresses a past action unrelated to the present, when this:

1. is hypothetical (similar to German Konjunktiv II)
2. is in certain subordinative clauses, including concessive (introduced by þó að) and final (introduced by til að) (in the same way that the conjunctive is used in Romance languages)
3. is in a repoted speech clause (analogous to litterary German's use of Konjunktiv I)

• It may also express a hypothetical situation in the present:

Ég væri gláður, ef þú kæmist þetta tækifæri.

I would be glad if you got this opportunity.

• Past perfect (formed with hafa conjugated in the present + supine of main verb)

Ég hef fundið kúlupenna minn.

I've found my biro.

Hún hefur farið heim.

She has gone home.

Expresses an action in the past connected to the present. It is a perfect past. Corresponds to English present perfect and Italian passado prossimo.

• Past perfect with hafi- (hafa in present conjunctive)

Used within the same subordinatives clauses that trigger subjunctive in the present (and were mention in the Simple past conjunctive) and in reported speech.

• Past perfect with hefði- (hafa in past conjunctive)

Used in hypothetical past actions connected to the present.

• Pluperfect

Similar to English Past Perfect, German Plusquamperfect, Portuguese Mais que Perfeito, but different from Italian trapassato remoto (which doesn't seem to correspond to anything in Icelandic and whose use I also don't know very well)

• Conclusive past with "vera búinn"

Used for actions that have just finished.

It may be used with vera in all of these past tenses.

• Resultative past with "vera + past participle" (declined in the nominative according to the subject's gender and number) (of motion verbs)

Contrasts with Past Perfect, in that the latter doesn't give any clue whether the person has arrived or not, while the former implies that.

It may be used with vera in all of these past tenses.

Ég er kominn.

Ég var kominn.

Ég hef verið kominn.

Ég hafði verið kominn.

Ég mun (vera/verða) kominn.

Ég mun hafa verið kominn.

Ég mundi (vera/verða) kominn.

Ég mundi hafa verið kominn.

Except for the simple pasts, all of these tenses may be in the progressive (vera að + infinitive)

Wisapi (talk) 02:13, 27 June 2010 (UTC)

Declension of the Definite Article

I think this article has major issues.

The statements on the page 1) "The independent article, i.e., not attached to the noun as a suffix, is mostly used in poetry and irregularly elsewhere (there are hardly any rules for the latter case; it is mainly a matter of taste)." 2) The independent or free-standing definite article exists in Icelandic in the form hinn.

appear very misleading and cite no references at all.

Declension of the Definite Article

The Definite Article is used as in English when an adjective precedes the noun:

Hinn sterki hestur - The strong horse.

Hin djúpa á - The deep river.

Hið ríka land - The rich land.

Singular

Mas Fem Neut

NOM hinn hin hið ACC hinn hina hið DAT hinum hinni hinu GEN hins hinnar hins

Plural

Mas Fem Neut

NOM hinir hinar hin ACC hina hinar hin DAT hinum hinum hinum GEN hinna hinna hinna

http://www.samkoma.com/mimir/mimart.htm#decline

D.R. du Prie 16:04, 19 January 2013 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Duprie37 (talk • contribs)

Articles

I think there is a good need of improvement in the defnintie-indefinite article section. Komitsuki (talk) 15:16, 20 May 2013 (UTC)

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