Talk:Hsu Jung-shu

淑 shú instead of shū

@Geographyinitiative: @Raymarcbadz: Continued from User_talk:Chongkian (as of August 4, 2020) I think we should move that discussion from his talk page over here since its specific to this article and to Hsieh Shu-ting.

In order to present information such as "data about the name of the person as they use it in their native language" to a native English speaking audience it is necessary to teach general readers the nuances of the readings of characters. The two previous RFCs established that editors see value in including similar information. I agree with those editors.

Written Chinese is distinct from Spoken Chinese and "許榮淑" is the same name just pronounced differently in two different places.

In my experience one is usually better off just providing an explanation. WhisperToMe (talk) 21:35, 4 August 2020 (UTC)

"pronounced differently in two different places."

Exactly my point! And what place is this person a citizen of? All we need on English Wikipedia is the foreign language native name, not extraneous non-native names. Only the name the person uses is the name of the person; her Russian or French names are a relevant topic on Russian Wikipedia or French Wikipedia, but not on English Wikipedia. By the same logic, Cantonese pronunciations for her name which she does not use should be added here. Geographyinitiative (talk) 21:38, 4 August 2020 (UTC)

The Republic of China, which officially claims Mainland China but hasn't truly pursued such claims since the 1990s. Which has a people that is increasingly is seeing itself as "Taiwanese" and not "Chinese", but the state cannot officially change its name to "Taiwan" without risking war.

Re: "Only the name the person uses is the name of the person; her Russian or French names are a relevant topic on Russian Wikipedia or French Wikipedia, but not on English Wikipedia." That depends on the prominence of the language in the person's circumstances and in the era. I've included French spellings in articles related to the late Ottoman Empire because French had a major role in the late empire documented in reliable sources, for example.

"By the same logic, Cantonese pronunciations for her name which she does not use should be added here." If someone was active in Hong Kong movies this might be a possibility. There might have been an RFC on that.

WhisperToMe (talk) 21:47, 4 August 2020 (UTC)

A native name is the name used by this person in their native language. No need to force non-native linguistic data on this person and the English Wikipedia readers thereby giving the impression that the content is part of the native name used by this person. On Mandarin Chinese Wikipedia, you can give all the data relevant to Mandarin Chinese speakers. On English Wikipedia, we want the foreign language native name. Superflous foreign language content with artifically constructed non-native names is not allowed. Geographyinitiative (talk) 21:50, 4 August 2020 (UTC)

@Geographyinitiative: There often can be multiple names in different circumstances and those are not superfluous. Grigorios Aristarchis, an ethnic Greek in the Ottoman Empire, wrote in French as "Grégoire Aristarchi". This French name should be included as is known for his French translations of Ottoman government documents in an era where French was a common language among the educated in southeast Europe and the middle East. Same goes for non-Han Chinese foreigners who come to Mainland China, Hong Kong, Macau, Taiwan, Singapore, and/or Malaysia, and get a career or notoriety there and accordingly adopt Chinese names.

In any event the page is very clear in that the Hsu's pinyin is "Xǔ Róngshú", just that it's a Taiwan ROC pronunciation.

As for the Simplified Chinese, as per Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/China_and_Chinese-related_articles#Request_for_comment:_Do_the_traditional_and_simplified_forms_of_Chinese_count_as_the_same_name_or_different_names_in_regards_to_eligibility_of_displaying_characters? it should usually be presented in an article. If you disagree in this instance as a special exception you should start a Request for Comment on this page explaining why her name should only have Traditional characters displayed. The RFC needs to show why this case is different than the previous case (to be fair Chiang Kai-shek, the subject of the previous RFC, indeed saw himself as the rightful leader of China and did not see Taiwan as separate)

WhisperToMe (talk) 21:59, 4 August 2020 (UTC)

As long as we agree that in the absence of specific concensus, non-native language name-related content that the person has not yet been shown to use or accept are not germane to that person's English Wikipedia article, then we're good here. Geographyinitiative (talk) 22:31, 4 August 2020 (UTC)

@Geographyinitiative: That's actually why it would be good to state that in an RFC (something like stating: "I believe the characters should be excluded from this article if there is no consensus in this RFC") and see if the other editors go along with it. I'll let the judgment of the editors determine the course of action.

I'm very much interested in having such an RFC. In that last RFC, in regards to Simplified characters there was some disagreement over whether purely ROC/Taiwan topics should have them: some editors wanted both forms to be used at all times and some felt that Taiwan-exclusive articles shouldn't use them.

My opinion: I personally like the idea of seeing both forms on such articles for educational reasons (to teach the reader how they're different) so long as the article makes it clear that Taiwan uses Traditional characters.

You did point out before that in some circumstances a few simplified characters are used in Taiwan, and instances where it does can be pointed out with footnotes, citing Taiwanese government pages.

WhisperToMe (talk) 22:51, 4 August 2020 (UTC)

When the sources are there for a particular case, what the sources give as the native name should be added. The ROC territories have not used many of the linguistic forms championed by outside influences, though some are a part of Taiwan's native language culture. Geographyinitiative (talk) 23:01, 4 August 2020 (UTC)

I am one of the only editors that is strong enough to give full Wade Giles and Tongyong Pinyin forms on Wiktionary and Wikipedia when they are appropriate. I have to be very careful with my account because I have been banned more than once. I am not confident enough to engage anyone directly in the manner you describe. I have a very precious and rare skill and I can do good work within the existing framework on Wikipedia. Geographyinitiative (talk) 23:13, 4 August 2020 (UTC)