Talk:Hīkoi mō te Tiriti

Thanks

Thanks @TheLoyalOrder: for creating the article. Also thank to @Radiogaga1984:, @Serial Number 54129:, @Alexeyevitch:, @Panamitsu: and @Orangesclub: for your work on the article. This will be invaluable to documenting NZ history on Wikipedia. Andykatib (talk) 02:28, 20 November 2024 (UTC)

Neutrality

@Kiwiz1338 what do you think breaks WP:NPOV? I will fix if you can outline. I will add some more stuff on pro-bill views in the mean time. TheLoyalOrder (talk) 03:37, 20 November 2024 (UTC)

Hello. mainly the history of principles and how they have been defined over the years. How Seymour and others don't agree it's a partnership. Kiwiz1338 (talk) 03:42, 20 November 2024 (UTC)

@TheLoyalOrder Kiwiz1338 (talk) 03:42, 20 November 2024 (UTC)

are you happy with the neutrality of the lede @Kiwiz1338 TheLoyalOrder (talk) 04:16, 20 November 2024 (UTC)

Yes thank you Kiwiz1338 (talk) 04:17, 20 November 2024 (UTC)

Infobox

I removed the infobox because 'infobox civil conflict' is not appropriate here and made it look like a battle took place or something listing sides and parties and other superfluous details.

As far as I am aware no one was injured and no serious acts of vandalism took place, classifying this as a conflict fails WP:V and WP:NPOV. Traumnovelle (talk) 05:09, 21 November 2024 (UTC)

Most protests use this template. I don't think you should remove it just because of the name of the template.

From the template description:

• A civil conflict infobox may be used to summarize information about a particular civil conflict (for example, protest, strike, clash with police) in a standard manner. This template is designed for non-military conflicts, so please do not use on the entry of military conflict

I don't think civil conflict implies violence all the time, i mean School strike for climate uses the template which is mostly school children TheLoyalOrder (talk) 05:59, 21 November 2024 (UTC)

Civil conflict. Regardless barring that the infobox has other issues. It portrays that there are two parties for a start, when in reality there are people who protested, and everyone else. It also has unsourced BLP information describing certain people as 'key figures'. People naturally look towards an infobox when it is there and this one makes it look like an actual conflict has occurred instead of a protest. Traumnovelle (talk) 06:05, 21 November 2024 (UTC)

I'll add some sources to the key figures. It seems like you have a problem with how this template is wildly used, see Category:2024 protests like most of these use this template. TheLoyalOrder (talk) 06:49, 21 November 2024 (UTC)

Again, there are no parties and these people aren't leaders of the protest, how does: 'She lead a haka in Parliament in protest of the bill, video of which brought her to international attention' make her a leader of a protest. Traumnovelle (talk) 19:12, 21 November 2024 (UTC)

If we're wanting to talk about WP:NPOV, saying things like in reality there are people who protested, and everyone else implies pretty strong views on the protest and is a concerningly naive take if that's how your viewing it. Turnagra (talk) 17:37, 21 November 2024 (UTC)

You always manage to assume the worst. Traumnovelle (talk) 19:11, 21 November 2024 (UTC)

Yes. Most protest-related articles of this size would have them. Alexeyevitch^(talk) 08:55, 21 November 2024 (UTC)

I have no concerns with the infobox as it currently stands, it's consistent with how protests are portrayed generally. Turnagra (talk) 17:37, 21 November 2024 (UTC)

I support adding back the leaders and numbers to the infobox, which have been removed. The infobox seems appropriate to me. David Palmer//cloventt ^(talk) 20:38, 21 November 2024 (UTC)

I didn't remove the numbers, someone else has condensed them. Traumnovelle (talk) 20:39, 21 November 2024 (UTC)

David Seymour's Māori ancestry

Kia ora, people keep changing statements that say "David Seymour is Māori" to variants of "David Seymour has Māori ancestry". Just wanted to get people's thought on how to say this. AFAIK Seymour identifies as Māori, not just as having Māori ancestry. I understand its kind of a political question on whether Seymour's Māoriness is valid given his politics, with various perspectives. I think if someone identifies as Māori and they have the whakapapa I think Wikipedia should respect that by stating in Wiki voice that they are Māori (where relevant) so I would support Option 1 from below, but also if people think we need clarification on that I'd also support Option 1a

Options:

1: David Seymour is Māori.

2: David Seymour has Māori ancestry.

3: David Seymour has Māori ancestry and identifies as Māori.

4: Don't mention him being Māori at all

5: Something else

a: One of the above (specify) but add a note explaining the situation. TheLoyalOrder (talk) 22:14, 16 December 2024 (UTC)

I assume the passage in question is this? 'Seymour, who has Māori ancestry himself, defended the bill, arguing that it was intended to clarify the constitutional position of Māori as the original treaty had suggested but which had not been defined following the success of the 1975 Māori land march. He also said the earlier than anticipated introduction was a normal process and not a surprise.'

The relevant reference here is: [1] which does not mention it. Therefore it shouldn't be included currently based on WP:V.

What is ultimately most relevant is if reliable sources talking about the issue mention it or not. If they don't mention: don't include it; if they do mention it: use the wording they use. Traumnovelle (talk) 22:29, 16 December 2024 (UTC)

WP:V In a Nutshell: People must be able to check that any of the information within Wikipedia articles is not just made up. This means all material must be attributable to reliable, published sources. Additionally, quotations and any material challenged or likely to be challenged must be supported by inline citations.

Its a pretty easily verifiable fact that he is Maori.

Sources related to the hikoi that mention it that I could find:

RNZ "Seymour - who himself has Māori ancestry"

Newsroom "First to say Seymour’s hapū Ngāti Rēhia would be “ashamed” of him"

I think the fact several people have added the information in various ways shows that its relevant but we can decide on consensus if its worth including. TheLoyalOrder (talk) 23:00, 16 December 2024 (UTC)

People have been arguing over the wording of it so that makes it challenged material. Oh and it is BLP information so it must be referenced.

I've looked at the higher quality references such as The Guardian, The BBC, and The Washington Post and neither mention this.

In fact none of the HTML text-based references seem to include mention to it. It seems just unnecessary to mention this if the majority of sources don't consider it pertinent information and that also avoids the bickering over how to describe it. Traumnovelle (talk) 00:47, 17 December 2024 (UTC)

Those sources support #2 only. Option #1 shouldnt be used unless that is what he primarily identifies himself as. That would be like saying "Obama, who is white" (!). Not wrong but misleading.  Nixinova   T   C   05:20, 17 December 2024 (UTC)

AFAIK Seymour does not identify primarily as Māori. So, out of options 1 to 3, #2 is best. However, as the article does not really show how his identity/ancestry is relevant to the topic, including it in the article is giving it undue weight. Unless the article is changed to show, with sources, that it has relevance and due weight, then I support option #4 – i.e. don't mention it at all. Nurg (talk) 03:28, 17 December 2024 (UTC)

Suggest "of Māori descent". It is quite commonly used already on pages of other politicians like Shane Reti, Tory Whanau. Jill Pettis and Paul Eagle. Or perhaps like Dan Bidois who is described as "both of European and Māori descent". Kiwichris (talk) 09:45, 20 December 2024 (UTC)

That's a bit of a different situation to here, though. I think it absolutely should be on his page, I guess the question is whether it's relevant enough to the Hīkoi to justify its inclusion here. Turnagra (talk) 10:22, 20 December 2024 (UTC)