Talk:Greater India

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Indianization of China

@Malik-Al-Hind: regarding your additions diff, and my revert diff, I think this addition is symptomatic (in bold):

Much of these expansions also went on to heavily influence China, South Korea and Japan.^[1], As a result it ended up in the complete Indianization of China itself.^[2]

References

^ Manguin, Pierre-Yves (2002), "From Funan to Sriwijaya: Cultural continuities and discontinuities in the Early Historical maritime states of Southeast Asia", 25 tahun kerjasama Pusat Penelitian Arkeologi dan Ecole française d'Extrême-Orient, Jakarta: Pusat Penelitian Arkeologi / EFEO, pp. 59–82, archived from the original on 26 March 2023, retrieved 26 March 2023
^ Zhu, Qingzhi (March 1995). "Some Linguistic Evidence for Early Cultural Exchange between China and India" (PDF). Sino-Platonic Papers. 66. University of Pennsylvania. Archived (PDF) from the original on 4 August 2019. Retrieved 26 March 2023. everyone knows well the so-called "Buddhist conquest of China" or "Indianized China"

"The complete Indianization of China itself" is eye-rolling; how can you imagine something like that? Joshua Jonathan - Let's talk! 12:08, 1 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

But I just wrote what the cited sources had said. The source is WP:RS Malik-Al-Hind (talk) 12:10, 1 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Moreoever why did you remove the "Buddhism in central Asia" section? I will give attribution to the article where I derived it from. Malik-Al-Hind (talk) 12:14, 1 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Why are you reverting my edits? When the sources I quoted clearly talks about Indianization of China. I even quoted an entire book which briefly talks about this. Malik-Al-Hind (talk) 15:59, 1 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

You're taking phrases out of context, and present them as if China became some sort of clone of India. Moreover, you do this in the lead, which is supposed to summarize the article, which is clearly not the case here. The phrase "Indianization of China" has most significantly been used by Hu Shi, in a polemical way, to object against the uncritical borrowing of Indian cultural elements. That begs for an explanation, if it is due, and it certainly is not fit for a prominent place in the lead. Joshua Jonathan - Let's talk! 16:05, 1 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I am citing what historians have said. The entire book which I cited talks about the indianization of China quite clearly. But yes, In case If you don't want it in the lead, I can make a seperate east Asian section for this? Where I will write about Spread of Buddhism in China and japan with WP:RS sources. Malik-Al-Hind (talk) 16:10, 1 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

And how does that book speak about the "Indianization of China"? Any idea? Joshua Jonathan - Let's talk! 16:17, 1 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

i quoted page no. As far as I remember.

But can I create "Spread of Buddhism in east asia"

And "Spread of Buddhism in central Asia" section? Malik-Al-Hind (talk) 16:19, 1 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

You don't seem to understand that "Greater India" and "Indianization" are obsolete terms, used in some Indian scholarship with nationalist tendencies from the 1920s to the 1970s, but since then have fallen out of favor with mainstream historians. While there were a few historians during this period that proposed the inclusion of China and Japan, those proposals were not accepted by the mainstream and are considered fringe views that are no longer taken seriously in current historical scholarship. The idea that Indianization included China and Japan is WP:FRINGE. The fact that you can find a source or two does not refute this. Skyerise (talk) 18:19, 1 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The cited sources are clearly WP:RS which includes Japan and China as "Indianized".

Moreover the map you showed is an expansion of Hinduism (Not indian culture sphere as whole)

Though my request was to just make sections regarding Spread of Buddhism in central Asia and East Asia, Because the article deals with Indian culture/religions. Malik-Al-Hind (talk) 18:46, 1 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

This map shows the historically accepted range of "Indianization" and "Greater India". As you can clearly see, it does not come anywhere near Japan. Skyerise (talk) 18:30, 1 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Please also note that we already have an article on the Silk Road transmission of Buddhism, which is a different topic not normally included in the idea of Greater India, which is a term specifically related to the transmission of Hinduism. Skyerise (talk) 18:49, 1 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Yes but this article itself is dealing with the spread of Indian religions/culture/language. This is why I had a request to make a section for "Spread of Buddhism in central Asia" and "Spread of Buddhism in east asia" Malik-Al-Hind (talk) 18:53, 1 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

But the term "Greater India" is defined as the spread of Hinduism - not Buddhism. We don't need sections here. It is all covered at Silk Road transmission of Buddhism. It doesn't get repeated out of context and against the accepted definitions here. Skyerise (talk) 18:58, 1 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

No? The term greater India is defined with the spread of all Indian religions, Be it Hinduism or Buddhism

So shouldn't it be in the lead? Malik-Al-Hind (talk) 19:01, 1 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

No it isn't and no it shouldn't. You just need to stay in your own lane. I'm about to ask for you to be topic-banned at ANI because you refuse to listen. Skyerise (talk) 19:03, 1 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Did I violate any rules? Malik-Al-Hind (talk) 19:05, 1 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, you are. You are pushing obsolete nationalist fringe views which are not accepted by current scholarship. Skyerise (talk) 19:06, 1 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Well I just requested to make sections for spread of Buddhism to Central Asia and East asia. But okay, I will stop here if it seems like that. Malik-Al-Hind (talk) 19:08, 1 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Did you read the archives? Like most articles, the archives show that this kind of discussion has already happened and the current state of the article is due to the consensus that the sources do not support such an inclusion. China has been discussed several times previously and its inclusion has been rejected due to lack of sources that directly connect the expansion of the Buddhism into China with the term "Greater India", which is after all the subject of the article - a technical term used in a particular period and genre of historical works, not the "general idea" that we can coatrack anything into by claiming it means "anything Indian ideas may have touched, however indirectly". That's not the definition of the term. Skyerise (talk) 19:44, 1 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

[1] Manguin, Pierre-Yves (2002), "From Funan to Sriwijaya: Cultural continuities and discontinuities in the Early Historical maritime states of Southeast Asia", 25 tahun kerjasama Pusat Penelitian Arkeologi dan Ecole française d'Extrême-Orient, Jakarta: Pusat Penelitian Arkeologi / EFEO, pp. 59–82, archived from the original on 26 March 2023, retrieved 26 March 2023

[2] Zhu, Qingzhi (March 1995). "Some Linguistic Evidence for Early Cultural Exchange between China and India" (PDF). Sino-Platonic Papers. 66. University of Pennsylvania. Archived (PDF) from the original on 4 August 2019. Retrieved 26 March 2023. everyone knows well the so-called "Buddhist conquest of China" or "Indianized China"

[1]

[2]