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Archive 1

Page move

I moved the page to Gloria Hemingway, since that was her name. Gregory Hemingway remains as a redirect, of course! I'll now proceed to fix the pronouns. -- Captain Disdain 16:56, 2 June 2007 (UTC)

And that's done, too. (I opted to go with feminine pronouns throughout the article and used her name where there was significant danger of confusion. Right now this is pretty much a stub, so I don't think it's all that complicated -- if the article is expanded, then I agree that making a distinction between the mascule and feminine pronouns is an issue, but right now? Not so much.) -- Captain Disdain 17:05, 2 June 2007 (UTC)
I'm not sure what you mean by "that was her name". The person in question was named "Gregory Hemingway" for 64 years (1931-1995), and "Gloria Hemingway" for 6 years (1995-2001). Since most of his well-known work was done while self-identifying as a man and named "Gregory Hemingway", putting this entry at "Gloria Hemingway" contradicts the "use most common name" rule. See, for example, Cat Stevens, who isn't located at his preferred but less known name, Yusuf Islam. --Delirium 00:24, 3 June 2007 (UTC)
Well, not that I don't understand where you're coming from, but I don't think these are comparable situations. I think there's a huge difference between Cat Stevens and Gregory (or Gloria, for that matter) Hemingway in terms of name recognition. Gregory Hemingway wasn't exactly a household name even in literary circles. Calling Cat Stevens primarily something other than Cat Stevens would be like calling Sting primarily Gordon Sumner or calling Elton John primarily Reginald Dwight -- it'd be pretty stupid, because relatively few people recognize those original names, and yet they are all international superstars that just about everyone in the Western world recognizes.
Hemingway's change of identity, on the other hand, wasn't as drastic (well, not in terms of her name, anyway), because she still retained her last name, which is far, far more recognizable in and of itself than her first name. And yes, she did most of her work as a man, but she certainly got her share of publicity precisely because she changed her identity as she did. -- Captain Disdain 11:37, 5 June 2007 (UTC)
Just a check of Google confirms that Gregory Hemingway is the most common name this person is referred to by, as the first name pulls up 604 references while "Gloria Hemingway" draws only 220. Removing allusions to Wikipedia from the search pulls the references even more in "Gregory's" favor. Google Books and Google Scholar are more of the same, but even more drastically tilted towards the use of Greg. Gregory Hemingway was pretty well known in Hemingway circles, since he published a memoir of his father and edited things such as the widely read Finca Vigia edition of Ernest's short stories --- all of these things were (and are) published under the name of Gregory. This article cites 4 references that were used in putting together this article --- all of them refer to this individual as Gregory Hemingway. The material there says that "for the most part" he continued to dress and present himself publically as a man after his sex change operation, i.e. remarrying in 1997 while putting himself as "Gregory" on his marriage certificate or appearing at the opening of a Hemingway museum in 1999 as Gregory, dressed in male clothes. I don't think there's very good justification to depart from the rule Delirium cited. 69.226.74.4 19:04, 2 July 2007 (UTC)

Bold text

This is ridiculous. Facts are facts--stop trying to politicize this or turn this into some kind of LGBT issue. You are mixing up your agenda about trans-gender issues with the need to present to readers and researchers a clear, easy-to-understand article about the life of this person.

For the bulk Hemingway's life he was known as a "he." He was published under his male name. He had a penis, he legally-recognized marriages with women, he fathered children. I daresay his children do not look back nowadays and think of him as "Mother." And most people looking for information on him are going to look under "Gregory," because, if nothing else, that's what he's listed under in his father's biographies. The fact he got his penis chopped off and changed his name to Gloria does not change history retroactively.

I agree with the person who made the Cat Stevens/Yusuf Islam comment. No matter what the artist is known as now, no one has gone back and changed the names on his albums from Stevens to Islam. Let's also look at Cassius Clay/Muhammad Ali. He did his most noteworthy work and gained his greatest fame under the latter name, and that is rightfully how he will be remembered. A person should be listed in an encyclopedia by the name he or she was best-known, not by what he or she preferred to be called. Whether the name change resulted from a religious conversion or sex-change doesn't matter.

Also, please consult any standard work on Ernest Hemingway's life--Gregory was his third and youngest son. He didn't have four children. He had one son by his first wife and two by his second. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Caractacus63 (talk • contribs) 10:32, 21 November 2007 (UTC)

"For the bulk Hemingway's life he was known as a "he." He was published under his male name. He had a penis, he legally-recognized marriages with women, he fathered children. I daresay his children do not look back nowadays and think of him as "Mother.""
I would just like to interject here and politely say that my father, who is 54, has been living and working as a woman for the last four years. She's never ever asked me to call her "Mother" and she most certainly did father my brother and I. She says it would be wrong for us to call her Mother, since she never gave birth to us and that's not how we know her. It would also make her transition much much harder for us to cope with. She's still our father - just a female father. We can cope with that. She's been published in research journals under both her male name and her female name, but for most of her life she's been identified as a he.

There is no logic in listing this under "Gloria" Hemingway. Gregory may have had a body mod in later years, but he lived as a man, and in fact married as one afterwards. No one has produced so much as a photograph of him as a woman. Confusing him with genuine transsexuals and intersexuals does no one any good. If you wish to list him as Gloria, please produce some evidence that he was indeed Gloria. Otherwise, this will be be returned to Gregory. Sallieparker (talk) 05:35, 7 November 2009 (UTC)

If this bothers people, I have a suggestion. Why not give a list of works that were published under Gregory? Seems fair to me. Also, to those people who may potentially be dismissing gender reassignment, I can assure you that that kind of surgery is neither painless nor trivial, and people don't just go and get their meat and two veg turned into a vagina because they had a bad day at the office. Either Gloria was transsexual, or she was mentally quite unwell. Now, it's pretty clear that she WAS mentally quite unwell, having bipolar disorder and drug abuse problems. In the first citation - and it is unfortunate that it's a blog but this is evidently due to the interview not being available elsewhere - the interviewer describes Gregory as constantly having to deal with his dad's disappointment that he wasn't a girl. He is described in the interview as being a transvestite. Valerie, the wife, says that her boys "never saw him dressed up". Now, the fact that he had bipolar disorder, drug abuse problems, and apparently feeling like a failure for not being a girl - these do not preclude being a transsexual. It is known that people with gender dysphoria often go through a period of being transvestites, in that they dress, it feels right for them, and they go from there. Some stay there, because they cannot continue, other factors in their lives, family, maybe they are not out to people, many things can prevent someone with GD going further than that, and sometimes it isn't necessary, because like any medical condition, there are varying levels of treatment. For some people, dressing is enough to alleviate the dysphoria.
It appears a dead cert that Gloria had gender dyshoria and called herself Gloria. What caused the gender dysphoria, there is another question, whether it was an accident of the wrong gendered brain in her body, or her ongoing mental illness and the environment she was reaised in, or both? Nobody can say now. The evidence seems to be in favour of her being transgendered and suffering mental illness.Babooshka2002 (talk) 22:41, 13 July 2010 (UTC)

Him or her, she or he

I changed she to he because it makes sense...Modernist (talk) 16:42, 27 June 2011 (UTC)

I changed it back because your revisions did not make sense. Ms. Hemingway's lived identity was of a woman.204.51.84.210 (talk) 16:45, 27 June 2011 (UTC)

And you explain this how? Hemingway fathered eight children...Modernist (talk) 16:53, 27 June 2011 (UTC)
Why not refer to him as male for everything before the surgery and as a female afterwards? Seems to me that you can't make everyone happy with either he or she but this seems to be a logical compromise, otherwise we'll have a non-stop editing war, which wastes everyones time. W4chris (talk) 17:00, 27 June 2011 (UTC)
I agree - please make those changes...Modernist (talk) 17:11, 27 June 2011 (UTC)
I disagree. The science currently indicates that people like Gloria Hemingway are born with brains not matching their assigned genders. If this is so, then Ms. Hemingway was always female. Just because her body was male is not germane to this conversation. Causes_of_transsexualism — Preceding unsigned comment added by 204.51.84.210 (talk) 18:08, 27 June 2011 (UTC)
I think that this is turning a molehill into a mountain. You could argue various points to infinity and still not be any further along than we are right now. My only dog in this fight is the waste of time and resources editing and reverting from male to female to male, etc, etc. W4chris (talk) 18:16, 27 June 2011 (UTC)
  • Why do we have to say "fathered" at all, given the issues with gender on this page? Why can't we simply say the gender-neutral "had eight children"? GiantSnowman 17:48, 27 June 2011 (UTC)
Make the change then...Modernist (talk) 17:50, 27 June 2011 (UTC)
Now is not the time to be bold and make such changes; we need to get agreement and consensus from all parties involved to prevent stuff like this happening again. I have notified the IP about this discussion, let's see what they have to say. GiantSnowman 17:52, 27 June 2011 (UTC)
Okay - that's why I opened the thread at ANI although I'd much rather have this discussion here. In my opinion Gregory was a he and then when he/she became Gloria we use her and she...Modernist (talk) 17:56, 27 June 2011 (UTC)
Hmm, fair enough. Have you posted at any LGBT or related noticeboards/WikiProjects etc. for input? They're probably the best people to explain these kind of matters... GiantSnowman 18:00, 27 June 2011 (UTC)
That's a good idea, got a link?..Modernist (talk) 18:02, 27 June 2011 (UTC)
Try Wikipedia:WikiProject LGBT studies and/or Wikipedia:WikiProject LGBT studies/Noticeboard. Cheers, GiantSnowman 18:04, 27 June 2011 (UTC)
Using the prefered gender reference of any specific community is only going to fire up the other community. How about setteling for a totally gender-neutral tone and using the last name instead (i.e., she attended whatever shool becomes Hemingway attended whatever school) W4chris (talk) 18:16, 27 June 2011 (UTC)
I like W4chris's proposal--which should be done across the board anyway. The IPs comments have some validity but not in editorial terms; if the argument is that plumbing determines nothing, then they practically call upon studying the brains of the subject of any biography. Drmies (talk) 18:20, 27 June 2011 (UTC)
As it relates to fathering children, fact is that Hemingway fathered, that is to say, was the supplier of the sperm, rather than mothered, involving one's uterus and cervix. Using any gender neutral tone in this specific instance will cause confusion and cause this issue to fire up again. W4chris (talk) 18:16, 27 June 2011 (UTC)
Request for input here: [1]...Modernist (talk) 18:19, 27 June 2011 (UTC)
So how do we proceed? I think we should use he and him and then she and her after the change...Modernist (talk) 18:23, 27 June 2011 (UTC)
I know this can fast become a hot, emotionally charged topic and, personally, I appreciate the civility of these discussions. I would encourage others to comment but would perfer that we keep this very unemotional as, in my opinion, the issue at hand is really gramatics not a debate on transgender. Thanks all! W4chris (talk) 18:27, 27 June 2011 (UTC)
Agree that we should keep this as civil as possible; we're simply trying to be as accurate & respectful as possible. Now that it's been suggested above, I'd be happiest with absolutely general-neutral language - use of surname instead of he/she, and use 'had 8 children' (or similar) rather than 'fathered 8 children.' GiantSnowman 18:49, 27 June 2011 (UTC)
hows bout " Hemingway was the biological parent of 8 children." W4chris (talk) 18:57, 27 June 2011 (UTC)
Sounds a bit...clinical...but it works, I suppose! GiantSnowman 19:05, 27 June 2011 (UTC)
Making any pronoun moves here yet is premature because it's still too tricky - was it his wife or her wife?...Modernist (talk) 19:25, 27 June 2011 (UTC)
Again, nothing wrong with "Hemingway's wife" IMO. GiantSnowman 19:37, 27 June 2011 (UTC)
Article looks right now...Modernist (talk) 20:11, 27 June 2011 (UTC)

At first I found the entry unreadable, not only because of the pronoun confusion, but because of the lack of flow. I've tried to shuffle its contents into something that closely approximates chronological order. And I've added some details, quotes, and citations along the way. I have much more to add. I think discussing GH's gender issues in some detail would be helpful. It's not just a question of a physical change but, as I explain a bit more below, GH's complex shifting of identities in the course of a day. There's much more to be mined in the various memoirs and Gregory/Gloria's own writing if someone is seriously interested in GH and not just the syntax issue.

I had to make pronoun choices along the way, but I wasn't trying to "take a position". The Manual of Style with respect to identity says: "Any person whose gender might be questioned should be referred to using the gendered nouns, pronouns, and possessive adjectives that reflect that person's latest expressed gender self-identification." Gregory was born male. He had surgery and took the name Gloria. But apparently GH presented as a man once more when remarrying Ida. Obituaries say "known as Gloria" and "often dressed as a woman" and GH clearly died in the Women's Detention Center. Just before death, one obit says: "He gave [arresting officers] the name Greg Hemingway, then later changed it to Gloria, the report added." Yet the Chicago Tribune says: "For the most part, Hemingway lived as a man after his sex change." And says he had his one breast implant removed. Also: "Hemingway mostly went by the name Greg or Gregory in the Grove, where he frequented the Taurus Ale House, a neighborhood bar and restaurant, in men's attire." A drinking buddy says: "And he was just one of the guys."

It would be hard to create a more complex scenario. One of the sources, actually a compilation of obituaries, calls it (somewhat argumentatively) a case of "transition failure." It was certainly incomplete. I've tried to use (I hope consistently) he/him/his until the surgery and she/her after as Modernist suggested. I think that works for the reader. I hope it helps to have the children produced before the gender reassignment surgery. And to avoid pronouns as much as possible. I hope we can respect GH and not shrink from describing GH's troubled history. And avoid creating comprehension issues for the reader. Bmclaughlin9 (talk) 21:16, 27 June 2011 (UTC)

So far you've done a terrific job in a very complicated biography...Modernist (talk) 21:23, 27 June 2011 (UTC)
I have broken the article down into a few more sections on the basis that the whole thing is a biography so having a "Biography" section is redundant. I also moved the marriage details to later in the article just before the details of his children. Hope I didn't screw up Bmclaughlin9's excellent work on the pronouns. – ukexpat (talk) 13:20, 29 June 2011 (UTC)

I've moved one sentence that the sectioning makes clear was misplaced. Other than that...

You've undone the chronology, which was fundamental to what I was doing. In a proper chronological account, we can say "he" and then switch as needed to "she" at the time of surgery. By putting GH's marriages way at the end, you now shift back to "he", which is just the kind of thing I was trying to avoid.

Some sectioning makes sense, but a one-sentence section for "Medical practice" suggests we haven't got it right. The separate sections for "Gender dysphoria and health issues" and "Transition" really make no sense to me at all. They tell a continuous story, interrupted by a sentence about bipolar disorder that might just as easily be batched with the difficulties that caused the suspension of GH's medical license. As for the heading "Transition" itself, a heading should be comprehensible at first glance. One shouldn't have to read what follows to make sense of the section head. And for all the fussing about pronouns, we now have a pronoun in a heading, "Relationship with his father", which is a highlighting of "he" I was trying to avoid. Bmclaughlin9 (talk) 17:18, 29 June 2011 (UTC)

My advise is for you to trust your judgment; put the chronology right and try to integrate as many headings as you can...Modernist (talk) 17:22, 29 June 2011 (UTC)

In the absence of a reply from ukexpat I'll give it a shot. Bmclaughlin9 (talk) 20:21, 30 June 2011 (UTC)

Time

So, why did Time magazine have it in for this guy/gal? I think there's a story in that and it would be good to have this expanded upon. 75.48.8.163 (talk) 22:59, 6 August 2011 (UTC)

Unclear use of last name as identifier

There are several paragraphs which use the last name "Hemingway" alone as an identifier. Since so much of this article is about Gregory's relationship with Ernest, it become very unclear who is the subject and who the object of many sentences. TraceySwans (talk) 19:05, 31 July 2012 (UTC)

74.132.73.137 (talk) 01:36, 21 February 2013 (UTC)

Requested move 29 January 2015

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: not moved. Favonian (talk) 12:02, 6 February 2015 (UTC)

Gregory Hemingway → Gloria Hemingway – Wikipedia's MOS says a trans woman's article should never be under her male birth name Georgia guy (talk) 15:41, 29 January 2015 (UTC)

  • Oppose. Firstly, "Gregory" is far and away the most common name in reliable sources. Secondly, I don't think the exception in MOS:IDENTITY applies, since it is very difficult to work out what Hemingway's "latest expressed gender self-identification" was - there has been considerable controversy over this, as outlined in the article. And the MOS does not say that the birth name should never be used; in this situation, it seems that Hemingway generally preferred "Gregory". StAnselm (talk) 19:32, 29 January 2015 (UTC)
You mean, there's dispute as to whether this person actually is a trans woman?? Georgia guy (talk) 19:58, 29 January 2015 (UTC)
And in response to your "Firstly..." sentence, do you think WP:POVNAMING takes priority over MOS:IDENTITY?? Georgia guy (talk) 20:04, 29 January 2015 (UTC)
Yes, there is dispute about that. It was the subject of a court case, but there was an out-of-court settlement. Valerie is quoted in the article as saying he developed an "alternate persona". In regards to WP:POVNAMING, I don't think "Gregory" is any more POV than "Gloria", but yes, it certainly takes precedence, since WP:POVNAMING is policy, and MOS:IDENTITY is a guideline. StAnselm (talk) 20:20, 29 January 2015 (UTC)
You mean, you support that a trans woman should be referred to by her male birth name if at least 90% of reliable sources continue to use it?? Georgia guy (talk) 20:24, 29 January 2015 (UTC)
I didn't say that. What I mean that if there is a dispute about whether a person is really a trans woman, and that person generally used his or her birth name, AND the birth name is used in the vast majority of reliable sources, THEN the article can use the birth name. StAnselm (talk) 20:38, 29 January 2015 (UTC)
Although StAnselm is correct in saying that policy (e.g., WP:TITLE) generally trumps guidelines (e.g., MOS:IDENTITY) to the extent of any inconsistency, the inconsistency should be resolved (see WP:POLCON: "one or more pages need to be revised to resolve the conflict so that all of the conflicting pages accurately reflect the community's actual practices and best advice"). It is obvious that MOS:IDENTITY was written with WP:TITLE in mind as it specifically refers to it. If the policy-over-guidelines rule were strictly enforced, the exception in the second bullet point of MOS:IDENTITY would be completely ineffective, so common sense dictates that the exception should apply. The inconsistency should be reconciled by making reference to the exception in MOS:IDENTITY at WP:TITLE (and any other affected policies).
That is not to say that I support the proposed move in this case, particularly as it seems Gregory is still the most recognised name by a significant margin and the subject was less than equivocal in self-identifying as exclusively female at the time of their death based on the content of the article. —sroc 💬 17:54, 30 January 2015 (UTC)
Possibly, but not necessarily... what we would do once a subject dies depends on what the sources written after her death do... if sources written after the subject's death revert to using "Bradley" then so would we (per COMMONNAME)... but if they continue to refer to her as "Chelsea" then we would do so as well. Blueboar (talk) 15:35, 30 January 2015 (UTC)
  • Comment I would be interested to see the name recorded on death records. I also question how applicable MOS "bureaucracies" (as I sometimes see them) are in this. "Gloria Hemingway" gets significant hits and it was her name in the end. Gender is generated by a 2% difference in chromosomes and I would argue that gender identity is a more relevant factor. GregKaye 13:55, 30 January 2015 (UTC)
  • Comment - Since the subject has died, I agree that self-identification is no longer an issue. However, we do have to account for the historical fact that there was a name change. As with any situation where there is a change of name, the solution here is to examine what the sources written after the subject's death use. If those sources continue to use Gloria then so should we. However, if those sources reject the change of name, and revert to using Gregory, then so should we. Blueboar (talk) 15:35, 30 January 2015 (UTC)
  • Oppose. To quote from the article: "Hemingway's public persona remained male. As Gregory, he gave occasional interviews about his father as late as 1999." Not generally known as Gloria. Spent 64 years living as a man and only six as a woman, and even then often used his male name. -- Necrothesp (talk) 16:17, 4 February 2015 (UTC)
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Pronoun usage

Please see Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style#Identity before changing the pronouns in this article. Triona (talk) 05:58, 18 June 2008 (UTC)

I believe they ought to be changed in accordance with MOS:GENDERID. 67.81.52.52 (talk) 10:31, 13 September 2016 (UTC)

Pronouns revisited

An IP editor has sought to change all the occurrences of "he" to "she", and "Gregory" to "Gloria". I think this needs to be discussed here. Reading through the article, there doesn't seem to have been a lot of consistency in Hemingway's own mind and actions, and since he is discussed in secondary sources primarily as a male, that seems the most reasonable way for this article to go. StAnselm (talk) 05:59, 19 February 2013 (UTC)

This page must be changed to reflect their preferred pronouns and name change. As a trans woman, this is really upsetting to see a few ignorant cisgender people strong arming any attempts to rectify this wack situation.
That page was able make the necessary changes (including discography) so it can be done here too. If this doesn't make sense to you you need to educate yourself or step aside and let others fix this mess. You need to listen to what trans people are saying because you are ignorant on this subject. If news agencies such as AP can update their policy regarding pronouns/preferred name, so can Wikipedia. Thank you! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.250.214.2 (talk) 17:44, 19 February 2013 (UTC)
I'm not sure the situation here is the same, especially since there is doubt as to what extent a transition was made. We need to rely on what is stated in reliable sources. One thing you might consider is to post a request for comment, so that we can get some other opinions on the matter. In any case, thank you for discussing the matter here. StAnselm (talk) 20:04, 19 February 2013 (UTC)
Just a further comment, MOS:IDENTITY says "Any person whose gender might be questioned should be referred to by the gendered nouns, pronouns, and possessive adjectives that reflect that person's latest expressed gender self-identification." The thing is, it is not totally clear about the "latest expressed gender self-identification" in this case, according to the reliable sources. StAnselm (talk) 20:57, 19 February 2013 (UTC)
Her latest expressed gender self-identification was certainly as a woman. She identified as such to the police who arrested her, and died in the women's prison. For example, despite consistently mis-gendering her, this article makes it clear that she considered herself to be a woman when she died. Cite it, if you need to. I'd like to point out that it's extraordinarily dis-respectful both to Gloria and to the trans* community at large for this article to mis-gender her in this way, and if it were somehow called for in Wikipedia's policy (it's clear to me that it's not) then the policy would be what needs to change.74.132.73.137 (talk) 01:36, 21 February 2013 (UTC)
There have been discussion about changing the policy at MOS:IDENTITY, but that has been more in the line of including a reference to "reliable sources". Wikipedia is not a place to right great wrongs. StAnselm (talk) 02:41, 21 February 2013 (UTC)
As it is, the policy is pretty clear. She identified as a woman later in life and underwent surgery. Since there doesn't seem to be any evidence otherwise, the the page should be changed to comply with MOS:IDENTITY. 216.15.5.163 (talk) 05:04, 21 February 2013 (UTC)
And the surgery was reversed. There isn't a clear, uniform gender self-identification, even at the end of life. StAnselm (talk) 05:35, 21 February 2013 (UTC)
What? The genital surgery was never reversed (which is impossible anyway with current technology), and I see no indication of regret. Only an implant in one breast was removed. --Florian Blaschke (talk) 18:35, 23 December 2017 (UTC)
What name/pronoun secondary sources use is irrelevant. MOS:IDENTITY makes it clear that name and pronoun usage should be based on self-identification. In this case it looks like female pronouns are appropriate. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.15.5.163 (talk) 05:06, 21 February 2013 (UTC)
Agreed, see: "When he was arrested just days before his death, he first gave the police the name Greg Hemingway, then changed it to Gloria." Hemingway clearly desired to be seen as female, but likely struggled with practical issues and adaptation (the usual reasons for full or partial detransition). --Florian Blaschke (talk) 18:35, 23 December 2017 (UTC)

Drugs

I changed the hippie-style He experimented with drugs to He took drugs. Vmavanti changed this to Problems with illegal drugs eventually led to his arrest. (i.e. back to hippie-speak). Why not just He was arrested for taking illegal drugs.? Valetude (talk) 16:37, 13 August 2017 (UTC)

Hippie-speak?? Keep your bias in check. There's nothing wrong with the phrasings you don't like; they are much less colloquial than your preferred phrasings, and much more likely to be found in the mainstream press. What you describe as "hippie-speak" is simply literary English. --Florian Blaschke (talk)
Brevity is the key to good reporting. I don't think any newspaper editor would object to Illegal drug-taking eventually led to his arrest, which I have substituted today. Valetude (talk) 17:03, 13 June 2019 (UTC)

Categorization

Transgender people have a gender identity or gender expression that differs from their assigned sex. He or She adopted feminine gender expression at sometimes. So I think we should add Category:Transgender and transsexual people to this article. --Jesamsex (talk) 01:50, 28 November 2018 (UTC)

I agree. -- irn (talk) 04:19, 28 November 2018 (UTC)
The problem is that it is not universally recognised. As noted in the article, Time's obituary spoke in these terms, but others did not. StAnselm (talk) 19:23, 13 June 2019 (UTC)

Journalism in 2020

Hi Everyone,

I'm a trans reporter doing a story for Gizmodo about how pronouns get changed on pages like this one and the discussions that go into it. If anyone would like to talk, I'd love to set up an interview. Please reach out to me at henry.giardina@gmail.com for more info, and thanks,

Henry — Preceding unsigned comment added by Hgiardina (talk • contribs) 21:12, 26 June 2020 (UTC)

2021: Time to change Gregory Hemingway to Gloria Hemingway.

There is a new documentary coming out about Hemingway, called Hemingway, already released in the US, with a focus on gender issues in the Hemingway family so a lot more interest is going to come to this page soon. There’s going to be a lot of angry trans people about the way this article on GH is worded. Wikipedia has been fluffing about on this issue for fourteen years. Good to see a lot of engagement; incredibly disappointing that the transphobic views have 'won' so far. I am a transgender woman and I am appalled by the present wording for this article. I guarantee you that many others will feel the same.

I recently made significant changes to this article to make it less transphobic and more inclusive but those changes aren't there now. There is more than enough evidence that Gloria Hemingway was a transgender woman, albeit struggling with her issues and more appropriate pronouns and use of her preferred name should be given a much higher priority, to respect her situation.

There's an article or 4000 in the media that could/should come from this. Time for Wikipedia to get on the right side of this issue. Please help me. Someone gave me some advice that two 'new bits' in the recent re-write I did were too 'editorial'. Happy to get rid of them, of course. But have a look at them again, anyway. I thought they helped the reader make sense of the issues. best regards

Jesica Ward Not Snow Man or some other silly name. A real person. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Jessica T Ward (talk • contribs) 00:09, 10 April 2021 (UTC)

It's interesting that you mention the documentary, because that has provoked some reporting on Gregory Hemingway in the last few weeks. The thing is, almost all the news sources call him "Gregory" and refer to him as "he". E.g. the St. Louis Post-Dispatch: "The second son, Gregory, led to vicious arguments after his parents’ own divorce." StAnselm (talk) 03:47, 10 April 2021 (UTC)
There are a couple of issues that merit discussion. First, the article is in poor shape, to some extent because of an abundance of editing and poor sourcing. It's important to understand that Gregory/Gloria's notability (as with Ernest Hemingway's wives, lovers, other sons, friends, etc. etc. etc.) derives from the author. Because there are good scholarly biographies of Ernest Hemingway we know a fair amount about Gregory/Gloria until his father's death and it would be best to source this article to those biographies. For his later years it's trickier but again, it's best to avoid tabloids, or even newspapers that derive material directly from the Ernest Hemingway biographies, i.e the one above (I've cited that incident to Michael Reynolds, a respected Hemingway biographer).
In terms of pronouns, it's tricky. Like all Hemingways, it's difficult to discern the truth - for which we need to search for good sources. If they don't exist then we can only say what we can find, no more no less. If indeed she thought of herself as Gloria and we can reliably cite that with strong RS then we should consider changing the pronouns. When I worked on this article 10 years or so ago it seemed that Gregory/Gloria's life was a bit murky and hard to source. Ten years later it seems the same to me. What we shouldn't be doing is edit warring re pronouns. It's a tragic, somewhat ambiguous, and very Hemingway-esqe life. Victoria (tk) 23:54, 10 April 2021 (UTC)
Actually, there was a scholarly article published just last year focusing on the latter part of his life: Jeffrey Meyers, "Gregory Hemingway: Transgender Tragedy," American Imago 77.2 (2020). And yes - it does use masculine pronouns. StAnselm (talk) 10:06, 11 April 2021 (UTC)
Thanks StAnselm for finding that. It's a really strong source and probably that and the articles it references can be used to rewrite our article. That's some tough reading! Have you read it and do you have access? If not, I'd be happy to send it on to you or anyone else who wants. Also there's a WaPo piece referenced that I've downloaded (haven't read it yet) that can be shared too. Obviously Gregory was a transvestite from an early age; I'm still processing the rest. Victoria (tk) 20:12, 11 April 2021 (UTC)
No, I just read the abstract and the first page. StAnselm (talk) 20:19, 11 April 2021 (UTC)
I had thought about going through in the index in Meyer's biography of Ernest to pick out bits about Gregory, and had hoped that one of the biographers would write about Gregory, which would be more focused and easier research - which Meyers has done here. Meyers was meticulous in meeting everyone in preparation for his bio of Ernest, so this adds a lot of info. It's worth reading. I've created a "Further reading" section and added it and a WaPo piece. Meyers's piece has a fair number of references so will see if I can find others. Victoria (tk) 20:51, 11 April 2021 (UTC)

I've never used the talk pages so bear with me, but I was the one who made the recent pronoun changes and linked the wiki policy on gender identity. I made those changes after watching the new Hemingway documentary and listening to actual people who knew Gloria talk about her and her life. It might be murky because of the times she lived in, but they literally discuss her wanting to wear women's clothes as a small child and throughout her life. In that documentary they state that the fight which killed Pauline was actually after Gloria was arrested while wearing women's clothes, against what was reported here. I also based my edit's on Wikipedia's own stated policy, that that person's most recent preferred pronouns be respected. I'm not sure you'll see this, but I think that article sounds very interesting especially considering that policy and how its seemingly often disregarded.

I do think there should be some balance considering she was a figure known as a man throughout her life, but the bottom line is respecting her identity. And if you're at all familiar with stories like this, it's obvious that she was a trans woman, living in a time that was not kind to trans women. It was safer to live as a man even considering who her father was, not that recently was much better. Some of the stuff on this talk page has not aged well to say the least. She admitted to having dysphoria and went through the trouble of medically transitioning. Those aren't just "body mods" as a previous user called them. And I know the documentary isn't a perfect source considering they still refer to her using Gregory and he/him, but its very likely they had the same issues we're having here.

My point here is just that considering Wiki's own policies and respect for her preferences in life, she/her pronouns should at the very least be used more frequently here. With he/him pronouns only used when absolutely necessary for clarity. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2601:645:300:1EC0:60E3:5D1E:370D:A398 (talk) 07:42, 13 April 2021 (UTC)

Thanks for posting here, and your civil tone. It's hard to have a discussion when accusations of transphobia are being thrown around. Now, let's look at MOS:GENDERID: "Refer to any person whose gender might be questioned with gendered words (e.g. pronouns, "man/woman", "waiter/waitress") that reflect the person's latest expressed gender self-identification as reported in the most recent reliable sources, even if it does not match what is most common in sources."
First of all, this is a guideline, not a policy. Secondly, we don't actually know Hemingway's "preferred pronouns" at any stage of life. Thirdly, both the name usage and clothing were inconsistent throughout life. Fourthly, we are really pushing the boundaries of "latest expressed gender self-identification" if we rely on Hemingway changing his name for the police file, especially since eye-witness reports suggest he was not in his right mind that night ("intoxicated or mentally impaired"). Fifthly, the most recent reliable sources (such as the journal article cited above) do indeed use "Gregory" and "he". StAnselm (talk) 11:53, 13 April 2021 (UTC)
Just to clarify, according to the Meyers source cited above, the police arrested G. Hemingway for indecent exposure "while walking naked and carrying women's clothing." Meyers goes on to say that in the mug shot G. looks like a man wearing a messy wig, and that the police classified Hemingway "as a female and was held for five days in the Women's Detention Center". Gregory Hemingway: Transgender Tragedy Meyers, p. 414. Meyers also explains that Gloria was a name commonly used after undergoing sex change surgery in Colorado in 1994. He goes on the say that "he regretted his confused and irreversible decision. But even after his sex change, he showed no sexual interest in men, but tried to pick them up in bars only to see if he could attract them as a woman." p. 412 This is where all the ambiguities come in. It's unclear what he considered his identity to be.
Yes, the Meyers' piece uses male pronouns throughout and from what I can find it's the most recently published piece - and by a respected Hemingway scholar who knew the family. Victoria (tk) 20:43, 14 April 2021 (UTC)

Essay

I would like to know if anyone has thoughts on an essay for this article titled Wikipedia:Gregory or Gloria Hemingway. The essay should talk about why this article is titled Gregory Hemingway and not Gloria Hemingway despite apparently violating Wikipedia:Gender identity. Any thoughts?? Georgia guy (talk) 20:56, 15 January 2022 (UTC)

It's probably a little pointy. There was a move discussion in 2015. It might be better to try another or an RfC. Victoria (tk) 21:04, 15 January 2022 (UTC)
I think you mean MOS:GENDERID, since Wikipedia:Gender identity is another essay. StAnselm (talk) 15:30, 1 February 2022 (UTC)
That essay says we treat transgender people by their identified gender. But I'm talking about an essay on why this is an purposely an exception. Georgia guy (talk) 16:02, 1 February 2022 (UTC)
Fair enough. Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Biography explicitly states that "occasional exceptions may apply". On the other hand, if you look at the arguments on this talk page, many editors argued that it wasn't going against the guidelines in the first place. StAnselm (talk) 16:06, 1 February 2022 (UTC)

Page moves

The many page moves are annoying and clogging up the watchlist. Looking at the logs, the page was moved to Gloria Hemingway in 2007. I've had this page on watch since 2010. Looking at the article at the end of that year it looked like this. According to the Gloria Hemingway logs the page was moved back to Gregory in 2012. Now there's edit warring which needs to stop and there should be a Wikipedia:Requested moves with a discussion to gain consensus. Then there should be an RfC regarding the pronouns to gain consensus. In the meantime, it's nice to see all the work that's happened here. Victoria (tk) 21:04, 2 February 2022 (UTC)

What consensus is there to gain? At the moment, this article violates https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style/Biography#Gender_identity, & must be corrected. I'm being stonewalled by StAnselm in particular, & considering their redirect of 'birthing parent' to 'mother', I think their reluctance may in fact be tied to bad-faith editing. Logan Sheppard (talk) 16:06, 4 February 2022 (UTC)
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