Talk:Glenn Beck/Archive 7

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Cleon Skousen and Beck

This was discussed before once (it's somewhere in the archives) but I did not participate and don't know what came of it. Bytebear and another editor were debating about Beck and Skousen endlessly here and on the Skousen article.

There's a major piece in Salon about Beck in his affinity for the writing of Cleon Skousen. The article is here and, while obviously not a pro-Beck piece in the slightest, it's well worth reading for anyone interested in him. We currently mention Skousen briefly in the article since Beck wrote the forward to his (re-published) book, but the article makes clear that this Skousen fellow is arguably the primary intellectual influence on Beck, and certainly the main influence on the 9/12 project. We need to discuss this influence more than we do, and probably the section on the 9/12 project is the place to do it. Our wiki bio on Beck, like any other bio of an influential figure, needs to detail his influences and beliefs, and we don't do a good enough job of that. Skousen is, to say the least, a bit extreme, but Beck is an unabashed admirer, and Skousen clearly influenced Beck's thinking and the formation of the 9/12 project (again, by Beck's own admission—he's not ashamed of it in the slightest).

We have a reliable source (Salon is a reliable source—the fact that it is liberal is quite irrelevant) discussing the Beck-Skousen connection in great detail. It's definitely worth a couple of sentences in our article, and I encourage other editors to read through the Salon piece and offer thoughts about how we might go into a bit more depth regarding this major influence on Beck. --Bigtimepeace | talk | contribs 01:10, 19 September 2009 (UTC)

Can we start a new discussion on that below? I think infuences ar eimportant but that will clutter this one up even more.Cptnono (talk) 02:03, 19 September 2009 (UTC)

Sorry but I don't at all understand your reply. This is a new discussion, and it's currently at the bottom of the talk page, so I don't know what you mean by "below." Also I don't know what you mean by "clutter up." This is exactly the place to be discussing this. --Bigtimepeace | talk | contribs 16:46, 19 September 2009 (UTC)

"I" "must" "have" "been" "editing" "in" "full" "page" "mode" instead" "of" "section" "when" "I" "replied". "You" "can" "go" "ahead" "and" "disregard" "it".Cptnono (talk) 16:52, 19 September 2009 (UTC)

Well, if you are saying the comment belonged in another section (I have no idea if you are) then perhaps you should just move it there. And why in god's name did you put a quote around every word in your previous comment? --Bigtimepeace | talk | contribs 18:28, 19 September 2009 (UTC)

I figured if you spent so much time formulating an argument while disregarding that I was agreeing with you that the least I could do was atone for my since by putting in as much effort. A simple, "I don't understand your comment" would have sufficed. Instead of reading too far into it and trying to argue about something that wasn't an argument.Cptnono (talk) 00:14, 20 September 2009 (UTC)

The fact that the source is highly biased is relevant, as that inherently means that it could misinterpret or slant its presentation of Beck's thinking. After all, if I was trying to understand what in Obama's early life made him hold his political views today- wouldn't I treat an article from NPR different from one from National Review?

But, still, this seems to be a small thing in Beck's life and his thinking in the big scheme of things. I believe that it comes close to violating WP:POINT. The Squicks (talk) 23:49, 19 September 2009 (UTC)

To Cptnono, we simply seem to not be communicating well, which I'm sure is partially my fault. I genuinely did not understand your initial reply (read it from my perspective as not the person who wrote it—what you first wrote is just a bit confusing) and was trying to explain the parts which I did not understand in my reply. I was certainly not trying to start an argument. I was equally confused by your second reply, particularly the extra quote marks (I still don't understand those) and said so again. Perhaps we can just start over, and you can respond to the substance of my initial comment if you so choose? I'm quite seriously trying to start a discussion, not an argument.

And to The Squicks, I don't at all believe that Salon is "highly biased" as you suggest—though liberal it's a rather mainstream publication whose articles are cited all over the place. There are many publications that lean liberal or conservative on this or that issue and we use them routinely (and carefully) as we should, particularly when one of their articles is quite fact (as oppose to editorializing) heavy as the Salon article is. The Salon piece is an in-depth look at Beck and his self-admitted appreciation for Skousen, and if you read it it's actually rather well done. The only parts I would want to use would likely be those which quote or otherwise cite Beck directly—as I said he is an unabashed fan of Skousen's work, and has said so repeatedly. I don't think this is a "small thing in Beck's life and his thinking." As our Wiki article already notes, he wrote the forward for the Skousen book (at which point it became a #1 bestseller) which rather says something I think. Furthermore, as part of the 9/12 project (which is absolutely his biggest "thing"), Beck said that the ""The first thing you could do, is get 'The 5,000 Year Leap.'" (this is Salon directly quoting his television broadcast). This is not trivial or a small thing, it's obvious he puts a great deal of philosophical emphasis on this book as it relates to (at the least) his overall 912 project, and we should mention that in a sentence or two. That's all I'm suggesting, and I think it's quite reasonable.

As to violating WP:POINT, I'm afraid I do not understand what you mean by that. I genuinely think we need to include more on this topic in our article to give an understanding of Glenn Beck's thinking, and in no way, shape, or form am I trying to make a point. I happened across the Salon article, read it, and thought it would help improve our coverage of Beck's influences, which is exactly the kind of thing this article should discuss. --Bigtimepeace | talk | contribs 07:26, 20 September 2009 (UTC)

Doesn't Beck endorse Skousen's tome Leap moreso than he endorses Skousen's entire philosophical career? (And it should be mentioned that Leap is said to be more akin to inspirational lit than skilled historical analysis -- but is ne'ertheless devoid of Skousen's tendency elsewhere to hatch grand conspiracy theories. See Rod Dreher's take here.)

Actually this whole controversy is sooo ironic. Beck and others said Obama was a radical because Obama published an endorsingly favorable review of a recent book on education by Ayers, saying this is proof that Obama's generally leftiness is waaaaay far left. What is good for the goose is good for the gander so, since Beck loves the Leap book, it's being said that he loves the other books by Skousen that are conspiratorial in nature. (Since after all, Beck has a bit of a paranoid style in any case.)

(Hey, BTW..... when Ayers was a revolutionary back in the early 70s, each group of Reds believed the other groups weren't ideolocally pure enough ----- and, sure enough, today the various factions of the paranoid wing of quasi-libertarianism believe each other insufficiently legit. See Alex Jones's "Open Letter to Glenn Beck" (here).) ↜Just M E here , now 21:48, 20 September 2009 (UTC)

Here's an old, Mormon community, in-house journal article (Dialogue: A Journal of Mormon Thought) wherein a Brigham Young University scholar (Louis C. Midgley) debunks the modus operandi of Skousen's anti-capitalist conspiracy theories (in a pdf file here).

Cleon Skousen was a fan of a theorist Carroll Quigley (who is also beloved by Bill Clinton) -- but Midgley believes Skousen's use of Quigley bogus. ↜Just M E here , now 21:59, 20 September 2009 (UTC)

To Big Time Peace: I don't at all believe that Salon is "highly biased" as you suggest, though liberal it's a rather mainstream publication No offense meant, but I laughed when I read your statement. I believe that you are falling into the "But I don't know anybody who voted for Nixon! How could he have won?" trap. It is heavily slanted one way towards center-left/left-libertarian positions which, to both you and me seem completely "mainstream"/"middle of the road" because we support them (such as gay marriage, global warming regulation, ending the death penalty, etc.) but are not in the mainstream of the media at large.

if you read it it's actually rather well done Yes, in one of its first sentences it slanders anyone who dares to criticize Obama as a 'tea-bagger'. It goes on to say that Skousen's writing contains "echoes of the original Nazi 25-point plan." Come on, now. The article is a blood-boiling ideological attack on Beck and on American conservatives in general. You would not find anything like this on the pages of the LAT or the NYT. Only on an opinion page, maybe.

The point here is that Beck supported a book written by the author at a point in the author's career, and then the writers use that as a platform to smear Beck by implying that he must therefore agree with everything that the author wrote (and they go on to paint the author in the most negative light as humanly possible).

As Justmeherenow pointed out, there's not a dime's worth of difference between this and what the right-wing publications tried to do when Obama lied about endorsing Bill Ayers' book. That latter issue is not mentioned in the page 'Barack Obama'- and for good reason. The Squicks (talk) 22:08, 20 September 2009 (UTC)

You're welcome to engage in conjecture of course, but you could not be more wrong about me falling into a "But I don't know anybody who voted for Nixon!" trap. I'm not Pauline Kael, and that story is actually apocryphal anyway.

Of course Salon is certainly liberal—I said that. But it is also "mainstream" in that it is a regularly cited source and one of the most widely read publications on the web (basically since the beginning of the web). Other "mainstream" publications would include The Wall Street Journal, Human Events, Commentary, and National Review. These are all (particularly the latter three) considered rather conservative, but they are firmly within the realm of mainstream discourse in the United States, and absolutely can be (and are) used as sources in our articles in certain circumstances. We do not disqualify sources because they have a political bent, but rather go by their reliability. You've ignored my key point about how I want to use the source—i.e. just as a way to cite Beck's own views on Skousen. I'm not interested in using the spin of the author in our article and never said I was. Incidentally, the article does not say that Beck agrees with everything Skousen every wrote. You are making that up out of whole cloth. Anyhow this thread has gotten far afield so I'm going to try to reboot the discussion. --Bigtimepeace | talk | contribs 03:41, 21 September 2009 (UTC)

The notion of bias is entirely subjective, and you seem to be combining the ideas of an "unreliable" source and a "balanced" source. Salon is a reliable source (and my personal opinion is that it's left-leaning), just like the Wall Street Journal is a reliable source (and my personal opinion is that it's right-leaning). I expect any facts reported in both to be true. Lobbying to have Salon as an unreliable source sounds more like a discussion for WP:RS/N. Doing so now, in the context of a specific article in a specific issue might come across as an ad hominem attack on the source because you don't like what the article in question says. I'm certainly not accusing you of doing this, but discussing the appropriateness of the source in WP:RS/N instead of here, and stating your case more generally instead of referring to a single article on a single issue, would not be subject to these concerns. — Mike :  tlk  23:33, 20 September 2009 (UTC)

There is not concern with the facts, and those facts are in the article. But the subjective opinion of the author needs to be weighed as to whether it is important to the article. I think it has no place here. Bytebear (talk) 00:40, 21 September 2009 (UTC)

What does WP:RS say about opinion pieces? (Which, by the way, are POV/"biased," after a fashion, by definition.) It says that when the opinion becomes notable, then they are cited -- as opionions. I think there is notability to the associations of Beck with Skousen. People should be able to come to Wikipedia to find an unbiased accounting of the facts, as well as a brief mention of what is being made of them by various commentators. ↜Just M E here , now 01:30, 21 September 2009 (UTC)

Beck is a political commentator and the fact that Beck doesn't address the critiques of Skousen's entire body of work leaves Beck open to attack and ridicule; that is just how things work. Ne'ertheless, opinion pieces such as Alexander Zaitchik's in Salon are working overtime to sway public thinking, just the same as Beck's commentary does. Here Zaitshik is busily implying how much Skousen is and was universally reviled even among his co-religionists and political co-travelers. Really? Not. (LDS readers continue to find many of his religious works mainstream and many groups continue to find value in a number of Skousen's less overtly religious writings. Eg one can order a number of Skousen tomes from the LDS book publisher Deseret Book today: not the Naked Communist or Naked Capitalist but one can order:

1. The Five Thousand Year Leap, Revised 30th Anniversary Edition
2. Personal Search for the Meaning of the Atonement
3. So You Want To Raise a Boy?
4. Prophecy and Modern Times
5. The Works of W. Cleon Skousen, Version 3.0 (CD-ROM)
6. Brother Joseph: Seer of a New Dispensation, Vol. 1
7. Brother Joseph: Seer of a New Dispensation, Vol. 2
8. The Five Thousand Year Leap
9. The Making of America: The Substance and Meaning of the Constitution
10. The Third Thousand Years: From Abraham to David; and
11. The Fourth Thousand Years: From David to Christ

-- See here..) Also see Mark Hemingway's commentary in the National Review online, where he wrote:

"[...T]o be fair Skousen wrote on numerous topics with wildly varying degrees of intellectual sobriety. In fact, as the radio host in the YouTube video notes, Skousen’s writings on original intent and the U.S. Constitution in The Making of America are compellingly argued, and to this day are often cited by conservatives unaware of Skousen’s more checkered writings. Further, Skousen’s scriptural commentaries are still very popular well-regarded within the relatively unradical world of mainstream Mormonism, insofar as Mormon theology can be considered unradical."

Just before/around 1980, the LDS began discouraging congregations from lending sanction to Skousen's polical group, the Freeman Institute; but this disavowal was the church's not wanting to be drawn into politics not of its own initiative; it wasn't necessarily some outright rebuke of Skousen's take on politics as something entirely antithetical to Mormonism. (Cf the Pope's sanction of the somewhat controversial Opus Dei while simultaneously requiring those ordained as priests to refrain from politics.)

I really do see a parallel between the demonization by the Left of Skousen's writings and the demonization by the Right of William Ayers's writings. Ayers is, I think, some kind of believer in "radical instruction and education reform" -- which beliefs he himself no doubt holds as being a philosophical outgrowth/development from his days as a former anarcho-communist revolutionary. Yet, the fact that many on the Left would disavow Ayers's books from the mid-70s (Prairie Fire, &c) does not mean that every progressive would disavow Ayers' current writings about education, nor that everything Ayers has written must forever be considered of the fringe. ↜Just M E here , now 01:30, 21 September 2009 (UTC)

Salon.com, like other blogs, represents a fringe viewpoint. It's good for factchecking, but not necessarily notable by itself. You need a MSM source in support first. Soxwon (talk) 02:15, 21 September 2009 (UTC)

Incidentally, Mitt Romney once quoted Skousen as an expert on Mormon End Times beliefs: this in a supposedly off-the-record, and off-the-air, portion of a 2007 interview with Des Moines conservative talk radio host Jan Mickelson (wherein, entirely religiously speaking, of course, Romney referenced Skousen's [The Fourth] Thousand Years: [From David to Christ] to establish that Christ's 2nd coming would be to Jerusalem and not Missouri in Mormon eschatology. BTW, Romney could just as easily have referenced Prophecy: Key to the Future, I think. Also, see contemporary NYT blog about Mickelson's Romney interview here.) ↜Just M E here , now 13:56, 21 September 2009 (UTC)

• Orrin Hatch's eulogy of his political patron Skousen, read into the Congressional Record.
  Many people in Utah must be shocked today to find out that Zaitchik believes that mere association with Skousen is a sure marker of one's being on some way-out-there fringe. Here are excerpts from the eulogy "Tribute to W. Cleon Skousen" read into the Congressional Record (see here) by one of the political "patronees" of Skousen's, Utah's senior senator, Orrin Hatch (which even includes a rhymed, metric poem Hatch composed for the occasion):

  [... ...] When I first met Cleon, I was a young, enthusiastic, go-getter who wanted to make a difference in our Nation's Capitol. Shortly before I announced that I would be running for the U.S. Senate in 1976 as a political novice and virtually unknown candidate -- Cleon was one of the first people of political significance and substance who agreed to meet with me and discuss my candidacy. ¶ A few short years before this time, Cleon had organized a nonprofit educational foundation named "The Freemen Institute," to foster "constitutionalist" principles including a drastic reduction in the size and scope of the Federal Government, and a reverence for the true, unchanging nature of our Constitution. I knew that he had strongly held beliefs and I was very interested in what he had to say. ¶ We found in each other at that first meeting many areas of common ground and a shared love for the principles that make America the strongest bastion of freedom on Earth. Cleon quickly agreed to help, and throughout the coming months he became a true champion of my candidacy. He sent a letter to 8,000 of his "friends" stating that I was running for the Senate "for the express purpose of waging a fight to restore constitutional principles in this country." I was humbled by his support, and I felt a true need to fulfill his expectations of me and to never let him down. ¶ From that first campaign, to every day I have served in the U.S. Senate -- Cleon has been there for me, through highs and lows -- buoying me up, giving suggestions, discussing principles and issues, and above all else being a true, supportive friend. I can never overstate what his support has meant to me throughout my years of service. [... ...] As we all know, Cleon was a prolific author and writer. His books, "The First 2000 Years, The Making of America," and "The Five Thousand Year Leap" have been used by foundations, and in forums across America for many years. ¶ I loved an account I recently read in the Deseret News from the Rev. Donald Sills, a Baptist minister who became close friends over many years with Cleon. He spoke of his knowledge and study and recalled a time when he found Cleon sitting on the steps of the Jefferson Memorial in Washington, DC. When he asked Cleon what he was doing just sitting there, Cleon’s fitting response was, "I’m talking to Tom Jefferson." ¶ Cleon had a strong desire for good government, and a true love for our Savior Jesus Christ and our Heavenly Father. He believed that our country was founded on pure principles and that our Heavenly Father had a hand in guiding our historic and profound beginnings. ¶ [... ...]I would like to close with a poem that I wrote for him:

  W. Cleon Skousen.
  His life seemed like 2000 years / By those who feared the truth,
  / To us who’ve loved him through our tears / And even from our youth,
  This quiet, simple, gentle man, / Who taught us sacred things,
  He helped us all to understand / The memories of a thousand springs.
  Within this caring, pleasant soul / God’s glory was refined,
  Experiences had made him whole / For he had peace of mind,
  So many lives he touched each day / Explaining holy things,
  In writings left along the way / A treasure fit for kings.
  He loved the prophets of the Lord, / The Founding Fathers too,
  And Israel’s most sacred word, / God’s children whom he knew,
  His precious Jewell, of greatest worth, / He’ll love eternally,
  He loved his family here on earth / In loving majesty.
  So many others one by one, / This giant among men,
  He leaves us now, his work now done, / We know we’ll meet him once again.

  ↜Just M E here , now 01:28, 22 September 2009 (UTC)

(Hatch does some things that are a bit ideosyncratic, eg he's said to wear a mezuzah on a chain around his neck -- a, perhaps, silver capsule with, of course, the Schema written on it in Hebrew, , appropriate to be affixed to an Orthodox Jew's doorpost to touch upon entry. Hey! Maybe Hatch utilizes Skousen's format for compiling his autobiographical writing, too. (See Skousen YouTube "Keeping a Personal Journal". <cue ominous music!>) ↜Just M E here , now 18:18, 22 September 2009 (UTC)

Sorry Justmeherenow, but why on earth are you posting all this stuff about Skousen? This is so far away from the original point, which (incidentally) is being discussed in the "reboot" subsection right below this. I don't care what Orrin Hatch, Alexander Zaitchik, you, me, or the man on the moon think about Skousen. He himself has nothing to do with what I'm proposing, and I'm not suggesting saying anything about Skousen as a person or thinker in this article. I just want to say that part of the 9-12 Project for Beck is reading Skousen's book, of which he is a huge fan. We can use Beck's own words to do that. If you look in the section below, you'll see that there are three proposed sources including the Salon piece (which would only be used for things Beck said or other basic, non-contentious matters of fact) as well as articles in Mormon Times and Human Events. This is not about Skousen, it's about the fact that Beck likes him and thinks all 9-12ers need to read him. Please don't keep posting here in what appears to be an effort to demonstrate that some LDS folks and no doubt others think Skousen is great and mainstream. I grant you that, but it's completely beside the point. --Bigtimepeace | talk | contribs 01:37, 22 September 2009 (UTC)

Bigtimepeace, your proposal, as continued below, is great, of course!

It should be expanded, IMO, to include a brief summary of notable opinion about the Beck-Skousen connection, however. Cf WP:NPOV: "To fairly represent all the leading views in a dispute it is sometimes necessary to qualify the description of an opinion, or to present several formulations of this opinion and attribute them to specific groups." -- So, let's do so. And, so as not to muddle up your more modest objectives, I've been continuing to discuss some possible sources to use toward these ends up in this section, is all.

(Hey, So far we have thinkers/commentators, many of them on the right, who think, at least according to my offhand characterization here, that Skousen's forays into paranoia are so whacky and his covertly Mormonism-themed political stuff so shallow as to render his ideas nearly useless; along with some conservative folks who appreciate Skousen's theorizing, however this should be labeled.

(But, no doubt, eventually nuanced characterizations of "Beck-Skousen" will be profiled in, say, the New Yorker, or the Weekly Standard, on Beck's own show, in some mainstream news media source or another, so we can simply credit whatever the analyses to there.) ↜Just M E here , now 02:05, 22 September 2009 (UTC)

Thanks for clarifying and apologies if I was a bit snippy, but I think for now we should probably keep the objectives "modest" as you say (just the basic facts about Beck's appreciation for Skousen in the context of the 9-12 project) and then if this becomes a more widely discussed issue in the future we could think about getting into more depth—that's my view at least. --Bigtimepeace | talk | contribs 03:59, 22 September 2009 (UTC)

Sounds reasonable. (Maybe such further commentary will show up soon? IAC eventually I may get around to compiling what references exist now, of various levels of notability.) ↜Just M E here , now 17:32, 22 September 2009 (UTC)

Reboot

I'm going to try to start this over, because for some reason half of the discussion above is about Barack Obama and Bill Ayers. I'm most certainly not interested in discussing that here, and the two situations are not at all analogous. When Barack Obama gets a TV show, goes on the air and starts a new "7/4/1776" project and says the first thing you have to do is read Bill Ayers book, and the proceeds to write a foreword to that book which then becomes a number one bestseller, then come talk to me. Otherwise let's stick to the topic at hand.

Several people don't care for the Salon article by Alexander Zaitchik (who, incidentally, is apparently writing a biography of Beck—which suggests he's probably a fairly reliable source, even though his bio will undoubtedly be negative). However it's been fairly heavily discussed (and lauded) all over the place. The piece is recommended by the LA Times, by Michael Tomasky [1], Andrew Sullivan [2], and Rod Dreher [3]. It's been mentioned by notorious left-wing outlets such as Little Green Footballs [4], Portfolio.com [5], and The Salt Lake Tribune [6]. Even prior to Zaitchik's article the Beck/Skousen connection has been discussed by David Frum [7], the Mormon Times [8], and Human Events (in an article by Cleon Skousen's nephew). Tomasky is the only "liberal" out of the whole bunch cited there, but those who comment on the article do so positively. I think it easily passes the WP:RS bar if used how I suggested using it—to basically quote Beck himself on Skousen. Forget the rest of the article—I just want to include Beck's views.

And to supplement, we can use the Mormon Times and Human Events articles from back in March which discussed Beck's affinity for Skousen's book right after the 912 project was announced.

Again, what I'm proposing here is one or maybe two sentences in the 912 project section which would explain that Beck told his audience to buy Skousen's book and also include some brief praise of the book and/or Skousen from Beck's own mouth. We could also maybe move up the detail (currently in the article) that Beck wrote the foreword to the new edition, or that could stay where it is in the section on "books" (it makes no difference to me).

For anyone seriously arguing we should not include a bit more detail on this just bear in mind the following: 1) In introducing the 9/12 project, Beck said "The first thing you could do, is get 'The 5,000 Year Leap.'" (we could source this both to the Salon article and to a Beck show transcript if necessary); 2) He told Skousen's nephew Mark Skousen that the book "changed his life"; 3) He said of Skousen and the book "(Skousen) was years ahead of his time...And our founders were thousands of years ahead of their time. My hope is that all Americans young and old will spend time with this book to understand why we are who we are."

Sorry, but if we want to discuss Beck's influences and get into more detail about the philosophical underpinnings of the 912 project (and we want to do both of those things, obviously), we absolutely have to discuss this. Anyone who thinks this is an attempt to make Beck look bad should consider the fact that Beck loudly proclaims his affection for Skousen's book, and that we can basically source an entire sentence or two about it to Beck's own words as covered in secondary sources. --Bigtimepeace | talk | contribs 04:31, 21 September 2009 (UTC)

I would theoretically support this if=

1)Skousen's name is mentioned without left-wing ideological commentary tagged to it. Something like Beck advocated the book by Skousen, a controversial Mormon fundamentalist suspected of fascism is right out and won't fly.

2)We don't indulge in commentary about the book, but we stick to Beck's own words about it and the objective facts (that he wrote the forward).

3)We stick to the best sources. Less biased, less slanted, and more mainstream articles- such as Mormon Times. The Squicks (talk) 04:38, 21 September 2009 (UTC)

That's been the proposal from the beginning. I think we should use three sources: the Salon piece, the article in Mormon Times, and the piece by Skousen's nephew in Human Events. There might be a quote or two from Beck in the Salon article that is not in the other two, and since it is by far the most detailed article on this topic, we would be remiss not to footnote it. I have no interest in quoting anything Alexander Zaitchik said or letting his view trickle into our article, but his article does provide non-controversial, basic factual information (which is useful even to someone who hates the editorializing there) and should be cited. There is absolutely no prohibition against putting a Salon article (which this list shows we cite all the time) in the footnotes when we are not even including its views in the article. By citing Mormon Times and Human Events at the same time we have a good balance of sources to which a reader can turn for more information, but we would keep it bare bones and in Beck's words in the article. --Bigtimepeace | talk | contribs 04:54, 21 September 2009 (UTC)

I would also like to note that the situation as described as your sources are pretty critical of the Salon.com article at times. For example, Rod Dreher wrote a follow up statement called I was wrong about "5,000 Year Leap". He stated=

If all you knew about Skousen was "Leap," you would be completely oblivious to the bad stuff about him. "Leap" is a work of interpretive history, one that treats the American founding as a "miracle," and renders the Founders as having an air of semi-divinity about them. In its worshipful tone and substance, it blurs the line between religion and nationalism -- not in a frightening way, but rather in a hokey, 1950s civic-religion way. This is the kind of book you'd expect Opie's civics teacher in Mayberry to assign to him.

Which is exactly the point made before. Zaitchik, a hard-line partisan ideologue, took the material from Skousen's other, controversial works and then committed a classic 'guilt by association' smear against Beck. Disclosing that Beck likes this book is possibly relevant but the rest of the issue is different. The Squicks (talk) 04:44, 21 September 2009 (UTC)

Alexander Zaitchik is a reporter, and you'll have to provide evidence that he is "a hard-line partisan ideologue" before I'll accept that view. Being highly critical of Glenn Beck does not = "hard line partisan ideologue", it = "much of the population of the United States."

And Dreher says absolutely nothing critical of the Zaitchik piece (nor do any of the other sources, incidentally). His original post said "if you read nothing else today, make sure it's Alexander Zaitchik's exploration of the late W. Cleon Skousen..." and he did not take that back, and indeed even linked to Zaitchik's article in the second post. His point there was that the 5,000 Year Leap was not, in his mind, that crazy, thus "Skousen himself may have been an extremist in his convictions, but you have to look to his other material for evidence of that; it's not in "The 5,000 Year Leap." He also says he is "still troubled by Skousen on the whole."

But whatever, this is a side point, since I'm not interested in arguing whether we should like or dislike what Zaitchik wrote. If you are arguing that the most in depth work about Beck's views on Skousen should not even be in the footnotes because you think Salon is not a reliable source and Zaitchik is not a real reporter, then say so directly and make an argument, but I think including it in a footnote is hardly a radical proposal. This is not about ideology or politics, it's about providing readers with access to a variety of sources which discuss an important influence on Beck, while just giving the basic facts about it in our article. Pretty standard stuff. --Bigtimepeace | talk | contribs 05:25, 21 September 2009 (UTC)

• BTW here's somebody's précis of Leap, here. ↜Just M E here , now 17:36, 22 September 2009 (UTC)

__ I . __

Bigtimepeace wrote, "Alexander Zaitchik is a reporter, and you'll have to provide evidence that he is "a hard-line partisan ideologue" before I'll accept that view. Being highly critical of Glenn Beck does not = 'hard line partisan ideologue', it = 'much of the population of the United States.'"

I would take this as a curious and illuminating formulation if I didn't believe that Bigtimepeace merely misspoke and meant "much of the population of professional journalists and of English-language Wikipedians" -- which statement, tho I've no hard survey numbers, I'd be inclined to believe. But with regard the US population at large we need to take into account salient points: No. 1, even such an influential mag -- among the population of Wikipedians and journalists -- as Time enjoys but a circulation of 3 mill or so; No. 2, Beck's weekly broadcasts reach several multiples of that. In fact, actual survey data -- such as a recent NBC/WSJ poll -- sez,

"24 percent of Americans have a favorable view of him [Beck] (13 percent strongly so), only 19 percent have an unfavorable one (14 percent strongly)."

__ II . __

The following I thot so obvious I was sincerely surprised I'm having to go to the effort to present my bit here. But here goes. Such things as the not-so-subtle anti-Mormon bigotry within Zeitchik's Beck-Skousen "expose" is not only ironic...it is a marker that Zeitchik of course has ideological objectives in addition to mere straightforward reporting, IMO.

Also notice, for example, that Zeitchik's likewise brilliant three parter about Beck in Salon is chock full of minimally supported broadsides, as well. For example, his intro makes the completely offhand claim that Beck is uncomfortable around minorities including Jews.

To this day, the face-to-face community of Mount Vernon and the watercolor backdrop of Skagit Valley remains the soft-focus template for Beck's evocations of idealized small-town "real" America. He has also pointed to the area's white demographic -- made up of descendants of Swedish, German and Dutch settlers -- as the source of his lingering discomfort around Jews and other ethnic minorities. "I'm the whitest guy you will ever meet," Beck never tires of saying. --(See here.)

(Huh? My own observations of the milieu of LDS from the small-town Intermountain West is that they tend to think themselves as adopted tribal Hebrews and in turn have a rather mystical reverence for Jews as a fellow religious minority. Ne'ertheless, were I a reporter attemting to shade a biographical piece with this observation/inkling, I'd offer it as opinion or supposition or provide an anecdote to support it. Zeitchik just names his "hit" as a basic assumption that he imagines unnecessary to couch as his opinion or support even with so much as an anecdote, since he apparently believes it impossible to be challenged. What we get instead within Zeitchik's serialized bio of Beck are mindlessly repeated taunts regarding Beck's "white-breadedness," with inference to be drawn that he is a bigot.

However, as I read Zeitchik, I'm saying to him through my computer screen, "Show me! If you don't provide something more concrete than innuendo to support this theme, then it is your judgementalism that smacks of bigotry."

There certainly could have been nuanced questions raised -- along the lines of: "(1) Beck likes Skousen's stuff about limited government. (2) Skousen also at times tended to be a bigoted critic of black culture. (3) Does Beck harbor bigoted tendencies, due to Skousen's influence?"; ne'ertheless, IMO, Zeitchik's broad-brush shadings of "Beck-as-bigot" are as simplistic and bigoted in Zeitchik approach as would be any of Beck's tendencies that Zeitchik would hope to demonize. ↜Just M E here , now 03:38, 24 September 2009 (UTC)

I fully agree with the rationale put forth by Bigtimepeace. Glenn Beck himself has unequivocally stated how reading Skousen “changed his life”, and according to Beck’s own statements, Skousen is the preeminent intellectual and theoretical influence on Beck’s overall political and philosophical ethos. There is a way to display this irrefutable fact with respect to WP:NPOV and without the use of personal hyperbole – as long as all statements are attributed, referenced, and garnered from WP:Reliable sources. To ignore the clear Skousen connection to Beck’s personal ideology does a disservice not only to the reader, but to anyone attempting to understand why Beck might reach the conclusions and interpretations that he does. The fact that many of these “conspiratorial” conclusions are controversial does not disqualify their mention or inclusion. In fact, Beck seems not only to embrace many Skousen-esque suppositions, but revel in the “main stream press” controversy that he inspires with such pronouncements (finding such derision as further self-fulfilling confirmation of his original premise).   Redthoreau (talk)RT 08:56, 24 September 2009 (UTC)

I also agree with Bigtimepeace's conclusion with regard our bio of Beck, I just think that labeling Zeitchik a neutral-POV reporter is a bit much.

(Adopting my patented "bigotry detection test" of switching Orthodox Judaism with Mormonism, say that as a part of a theoretical Kate Capshaw one-woman-show full of political commentary, Capshaw advocates for the US to provide strong military support for Israel.

(I myself believe that the right wing in Israel are nuts; and, in any case, I come along and write a bio of Capshaw, in which I call Dreamworks a "Jewish movie production company" -- which causes an enlightened subset of my readers who are attuned to anti-Jewish bigotry to spit beverage through their noses as they think to themselves, "Wha---?!"

(My Capshaw bio includes an expose about a late talmudic scholar who Capshaw reveres, some of whose works had included the controversial premise that Israel's borders with Lebanon should be expanded due to biblical references to the ancient Children of Israel's G-d-given inheritance. Capshaw had advocated that people read a book by this scholar that has nothing to do with the ideal borders of Israel but instead advocates that people of whatever religious faith set up communal kibbutzes; so, in my expose I make hay about Capshaw's association with this scholar. Meanwhile, upon this scholar's death, a theoretical political "patronee" of his, Joe Lieberman, had offered a eulogy in the Congressional Record in which Lieberman had acclaimed the influence of this scholar's tome about communalism. ........ ) ↜Just M E here , now 16:22, 24 September 2009 (UTC)

There seems to be some support then for adding a bit more about Skousen, so I'll try to work on that soon. In partial reply to Justmeherenow, just to be clear I did not say Zeitchik was "a neutral-POV reporter." I said he was not "a hard-line partisan ideologue" as another editor had described him. I don't think there is a such a thing as a neutral-POV reporter, though some press stories obviously have more of an air of "objectivity" than the Salon piece does. But, and this is a key point that multiple people seem to be missing here, Wikipedia is not disallowed from using secondary sources that actually make a strong argument or take a strong point of view—quite the contrary. Our history articles can cite historians who are Marxist or conservative, so long as their work is well regarded. If Zeitchik publishes a bio on Beck and it is well-received, we absolutely can quote his views as an expert on the subject. We're not remotely to that point yet, but I reject the notion that "having a POV" means "doesn't belong in our articles" as some seem to suggest.

And I stand by my assertion that "much of the population" (of the country) is highly critical of Glenn Beck. "Much" is a pretty vague word so I'm on pretty safe ground here, but the NBC/WSJ poll cited by Justmeherenow reveals that 57% don't know Beck or have no opinion. Of the 43% that do have an opinion, about 30% have a strong unfavorable view, and about 45% have an at least somewhat unfavorable view (with the rest being favorable). My only point with my initial statement was that one does not have to be a "hard-line partisan ideologue" to be highly critical of Beck, and the poll numbers certainly don't prove otherwise. But really none of this is germane to the topic of this thread. --Bigtimepeace | talk | contribs 02:42, 25 September 2009 (UTC)

Sorry, Bigtimepeace. I had thought you had known that a lesser portion/number of Americans with an opinion of Beck were "highly critical" of him than not -- which is why, incidentally, Beck is termed by commentators and detractors a populist (someone who is a professed "supporter of the rights and power of the people") demogogue ("leader who obtains power by means of impassioned appeals to the emotions and prejudices of the populace") in the first place -- and that you had merely misspoken. But, now you have explained that you had, in fact, meant that 45 out of 100 of those with an opinion equates to most of those with an opinion; and I'll accept this last assertion at face value. ↜Just M E here , now 07:42, 25 September 2009 (UTC)

This is really silly, but I'll just point out, as I did above, the obvious fact that "much" and "most" are very different words and that I have always used the former, and never the latter, when referring to the fact that a significant number of Americans are critical of Glenn Beck, hence being critical of him does not automatically make one a "hard-line partisan ideologue". But, again, all of this is beside the point and I think it's been discussed more than sufficiently. --Bigtimepeace | talk | contribs 16:17, 25 September 2009 (UTC)

In my defense, although I'd tested very high mathematically back in the day, it was only reasonably above-average verbally.....lol..... But, in any case, I now see you'd sed much ("Great in quantity, degree, or extent") and not most and so I finally get wht ur saying here, Bigtimepeace. Again my apologies. -- JustMe ↜Just M E here , now 16:31, 25 September 2009 (UTC)

Op-eds and feature articles

1. Mark Skousen in Current Events (link)↜ (‘Just M E ’here , now) 05:03, 9 October 2009 (UTC)
2. Skousen HQ'd his teaching/Mormon-themed writing/political advocacy careers, um, in, of all places, Utah and Idaho. So it is in Utah that newspapers have broached the Skousen-Beck connex: a current editorial opinion piece in Ogden Utah's Standard-Examiner is here -- which editorial is accompanied by a political cartoon in which Skousen is portrayed as a spectral(?) emperor, a la Star Wars, with Beck as Darth Vader. ↜Just M E here , now 18:01, 25 September 2009 (UTC)
3. Pat Bagley's report/opinion piece in the Salt Lake Tribune is here.
4. TNR (link) ↜Just M E here , now 06:18, 2 October 2009 (UTC)
5. Dreher's op-ed (see here!) is fantastic, every paragraph of it. Brilliant. I'm not a political conservative, for the most part anyway, but Dreher -- who himself has just started researching this topic -- repeats my independent observations over decades. ((P.S. Dreher's concluding little bit about Buckley's having worked, back in the day, to marginalize the cranks from intellectual Conservatism is a possible parallel I'd thought of, too. It will be interesting to see how this tension plays out, IMO. My prediction? Under an onslaught from the Right (such as from Dreher), Beck backpedals more and more from Skousen's "secret combinations" conspiracisms and more-and-more concentrates on an (also-Skousenishly-tinged) hyper-Constitutionalism similar in some respects to Ron Paul's.)) ↜Just M E here , now 16:44, 27 September 2009 (UTC)
6. (I'd been throwing "bigoted against black culture" out there cos although I figured Skousen wasn't racist, per se, maybe he was some kind of -- I dunno, WASPishly "religious nationalist" or something? (Removing the P in waspish, replacing it with an M, for "wasmish.") But, instead of my wrong guess (sorry), apparently what Skousen was "guilty" of, in actuality, was a too sanguine of tone about conditions of slavery -- about which Media Matters has posted a broadside --> here. ↜Just M E here , now 02:02, 2 October 2009 (UTC)
7. Joel Campbell in Salt Lake City's The Deseret News's LDS-themed insert (link) ↜Just M E here , now 07:39, 3 October 2009 (UTC)
8. Louisville, Kentucky's Courier-Journal (link) ↜Just M E here , now 01:38, 4 October 2009 (UTC)
9. James Carville, as interviewed on the CNN Sunday Morning show "State of the Union with John King": "Go look at his [Beck's] reading habits. Try The 5,000 Year Leap. And, I --- That guy, just exposed himself just like a lot of these other people there. So, yeah. He gets a lot of viewers. But, I --- Just look at his reading habits try The 5,000 Year Leap. And, I, I, I . . . [Note: speech slurred, for a phrase; unsure of my transcription: "just have got to --- "[?]] That guy just exposed himself for what he was." (YouTube, excerpt of transcript) ↜Just M E here , now 19:02, 5 October 2009 (UTC)
10. Christopher Ruddy's interview of Beck featured in Newsmax magazine (a new periodical that, according to Andrew Sullivan's critique, is sort of "America-first"ist/neo-isolationistic/theo-conish) (vid, some excerpts)
11. Joanna Brooks (Religion Dispatches):

    "[Glenn Beck...]developed the content of his current conservative messaging (an amalgation of anti-communism, United States-founder worship, and connect-the-dots conspiracy theorizing) after his entree into the deeply insular world of Mormon thought and culture. A significant figure in this world is the late Cleon Skousen[...]." ((link)

    ↜ (‘Just M E ’here , now) 01:12, 8 October 2009 (UTC)
12. Adam Reilly's insighful analysis(/jeremiad?) in the Boston Phoenix (link)↜ (‘Just M E ’here , now) 22:03, 8 October 2009 (UTC)
13. John Reynolds in the Ogden Standard-Examiner

    Glenn Beck was inspired by W. Cleon Skousen, who died in 2006, and whose life story is a patchwork of ups and downs. He wrote books that have inspired many. The attacks on Skousen and Beck seek to defame and diminish their credibility. ¶ . . . ¶ . . . ¶ It seems to me that Beck and Skousen are challenging us to decide whether or not the Constitution is a living or obsolete document. Some authorities would have you believe the Constitution is no longer viable. Skousen wrote about how our form of government came to be and how it should work. ¶ His explanation is too rooted in religion for some but you would be hard-pressed to find any of the Founding Fathers who did not have strong religious beliefs. Those beliefs are evident in the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution of the United States of America. (link)

    ↜ (‘Just M E ’here , now) 15:42, 10 October 2009 (UTC)
14. Media Matters's Simon Maloy throws down the glove on Skousen's The Naked Capitalist (link, link, & link)↜ (‘Just M E ’here , now) 02:21, 23 October 2009 (UTC)
15. Blog hosted on the SF Chrony (link)↜ (‘Just M E ’here , now) 00:50, 22 October 2009 (UTC)

Reading through these so-called sources, I am wondering if I can attribute all of Bill Ayers wacky ideas to Obama. It seems the connections are just as attributable. Does the Obama article even mention Ayers? I just checked. Nope. Hmmm.... Bytebear (talk) 22:55, 8 October 2009 (UTC)

Connex of Skousen with author of Soul on Ice

It may be of some interest to note with regard to Skousen's anti-"black culture" bigotry the curious case of Eldridge Cleaver. After the Panther co-founder came back from Cuba and renounced Communism, he went through a Christian [sic?] religious sampling period in which he hung with both the Unification Church and the Latter-day Saints. From a Mormon-themed blog:

Cleaver’s first "Mormon contact," interestingly, was with Carl Loeber, an activist with the Peace and Freedom party that sponsered Cleaver’s presidential run who had joined the Church in 1970 as he renunciated the Black Power movement. Cleaver met with Elder Paul H. Dunn (then administrator for California) and would be later introduced by Loeber to Cleon Skousen during a Know Your Religion class in San Jose. [...]

↜Just M E here , now 18:34, 25 September 2009 (UTC)

Justmeherenow I have a request here—can you please stop placing this kind of material on this talk page? This page is too long and confusing as it is. It's great you've taken an interest in Skousen, but something like the above (which isn't actually as interesting as it seems—Eldridge Cleaver, who I actually know quite a lot about, turned hard to the right in his last couple of decades, so the fact that he met Skousen is not overly surprising to me) is simply never going to be relevant to the Glenn Beck article. There's no need for us to debate Skousen's reputation or views on "black culture" here since we are not going to be discussing those things in the article. If you have not already, you might want to start discussing some of these issues over at Talk:Cleon Skousen. --Bigtimepeace | talk | contribs 21:25, 25 September 2009 (UTC)

Point taken. A bit peripheral. (Full disclosure/"in the 'small world' dept.": I know someone who dated a Calif. pol (later a US Congressman) who had got involved in controversy in '87 for endorsing Skousen's The Making of America due its use of the word pickaninnies (also see Alexander Zaitchik's reference to this in Salon)......... ↜Just M E here , now 23:09, 25 September 2009 (UTC)

New Skousen section

Per above discussions, I have decided to be WP:Bold and include a new section in the article on Skousen's influence ---> found here. I have done my best to be weary of WP:NPOV and WP:Undue and figured I would make a notation of my addition here on the talk page, in case editors had concerns over the new material.   Redthoreau (talk)RT 07:25, 8 October 2009 (UTC)

You have made some good edits but I do feel that it needs to be tightened up.Cptnono (talk) 07:45, 8 October 2009 (UTC)

Thanks Cptnono, I am open to suggestions.   Redthoreau (talk)RT 07:51, 8 October 2009 (UTC)

Cleon Skousen and The 5,000 Year LeapInfluences (expand with more if available)

One of the self-acknowledged (not necessary) preeminent philosophical influences on Beck's post-2007 political ideology is the late anti-communist[23] and conservative author Cleon Skousen.[24] Beck has praised Skousen's "words of wisdom" as "divinely inspired", and made repeated reference to his two works The Naked Communist [25] and The 5,000 Year Leap.[24] Skousen, was a controversial author of more than a dozen books and pamphlets on subjects such as "the Red Menace", New World Order conspiracy, Christian child rearing, Mormon end-times prophecy, and World government conspiracies involving the Rockefeller and Rothchild families.[24] (not about him but about Beck so this may need modification but it comes across as a good summary) It is one of Skousen's texts, The 5,000 Year Leap, which has been particularly influential on shaping Beck's world view (add and changed his life). First published in 1981, as an attempt to explain American history "through a lens of Mormon theology", "Leap" has been touted by Beck as "required reading" in order to understand the current American political landscape (add: and the role of God?).[24] Impressed with the text, Beck authored a laudatory new foreword to the 2008 edition, which then spent months as number one in the government category on Amazon after Beck's repeated on-air recommendations.[24][26] The 5,000 Year Leap argues that the United States is a Christian nation whose Founding Fathers were guided by the Bible, and that the U.S. Constitution is thus above all else "a godly document."[24] The book then lists 28 fundamental beliefs based on the words of Moses, Jesus, Cicero, John Locke, Montesquieu and Adam Smith, which Skousen asserts have resulted in more "God-directed progress" than was achieved in the previous 5,000 years of every other civilization combined.[24] On his December 18, 2008, radio show, Beck, who remarked that reading "Leap" in 2007 "changed his life", introduced his audience to the idea of a "September twelfth person", remarking: (wikilink available ?) "The first thing you could do, is get The 5,000 Year Leap. Over my book or anything else, get The 5,000 Year Leap. [...] It is the principle. Please, No. 1 thing: Inform yourself about who we are and what the other systems are all about. The 5,000 Year Leap is the first part of that. Because it will help you understand American free enterprise. Make that dedication of becoming a September 12 person and I will help you do it next year."[24] (It is already asserted that he says it should be read to his audience.)

Would read:

Influences

One of the self-acknowledged (not necessary) preeminent philosophical influences on Beck's post-2007 political ideology is the late anti-communist[23] and [Edited: limited-government] conservative, author Cleon Skousen [Edited: (1913–2006)].[[24] Beck has praised Skousen's "words of wisdom" as "divinely inspired", and made repeated reference to his two works [Edited: often referencing Skousen's] The Naked Communist [25] and The 5,000 Year Leap.[24] Skousen, was a controversial author of more than a dozen books and pamphlets on [Edited: Skousen's works involve a diverse range of] subjects such as "the Red Menace", New World Order conspiracy, Christian child rearing, Mormon end-times prophecy [eschalogy], and World government conspiracies [Edited: theorizing] involving the Rockefeller and Rothchild families.[24] It is one of Skousen's texts, The 5,000 Year Leap [Edited: (published 1981)], which has been particularly influential on shaping [particularly influences] Beck's world view and he. [Beck] says [in 2007] it "changed his life" upon reading it in 2007. First published in 1981, as an attempt to explain [Leap explains] American history "through a [Edited: Skousen's "]lens of Mormon theology", "Leap" has been [and is] touted by Beck as "required reading" in order to understand the current American political landscape and become a "September twelfth person".[24] Impressed with the text, Beck authored a laudatory new foreword to [for] the 2008 edition, which then spent [Edited: and Beck's on-air recommmmendations in 2009 helped the title to spend] months as number one in the government category on Amazon after Beck's repeated on-air recommendations.[24][26]

Cptnono (talk) 08:41, 8 October 2009 (UTC)

Note: I made some edits in an attempt to tightent the text some (see stricken text with emendations above).↜ (‘Just M E ’here , now) 17:40, 8 October 2009 (UTC)

Cptnono, I have made the revisions per your suggestions. Hopefully through collaboration we have reached something that all (or most) editors will be happy with.   Redthoreau (talk)RT 10:56, 8 October 2009 (UTC)

If we would have had a much longer article it wouldn't have been a concern at all.Cptnono (talk) 12:54, 8 October 2009 (UTC)

Cleon Skousen

There is way too much weight given to Skousen and his ideas, very few of which relate directly to Beck. The section is also implying strong synth, that Beck agrees with everything Skousen said, and that the section describes the opinions of Beck, when it is all about Skousen and his beliefs. Bytebear (talk) 18:37, 8 October 2009 (UTC)

• Note: I've moved the following here from User:Bytebear's talkpage.↜ (‘Just M E ’here , now) 22:55, 8 October 2009 (UTC)

  ---------------
  I've tried to address your concerns wrt Skousenin my last few edits. What do you think?↜ (‘Just M E ’here , now) 19:38, 8 October 2009 (UTC)
        I didn't specifically look at your edits. but the entire section should be removed. The first reference doesn't even mention Beck, and yet is the crux of the entire paragraph. The ones that do mention Beck are editorial pieces but are presented as fact or the footnote refers directly to Beck interviews and is original research and probably missing context and is POV. The article implies explicit states that Beck's main influence is Skousen, but this has been disputed by Beck and others directly. He did forward one book, but the connection ends there. The article makes it seem like Skousen is his mentor. It's so out of balance. The fact is, Beck wrote the forward to one book. Everything else is left wing opinion trying to tie Beck to extreme views. Bytebear (talk) 19:45, 8 October 2009 (UTC)
              I do think Skousen greatly influences Beck's political philosophy quite a bit, so my belief in this regard shades my interest in including the material, I'm sure. In any case, IMO the Alexander Zaichik stuff is important, if problematic in dealing with Z's axe grinding/general tone. But did you see the more balanced tone within scholar Joana Brooks's reference to Skousen's influence? And, Bytebear, if you think even Brooks buys into more influence than justified, please check out Beck's extremely recent interview with Chris Ruddy here.↜ (‘Just M E ’here , now) 20:12, 8 October 2009 (UTC)
        Brooks's works:
              - American Lazarus: Religion and the Rise of African-American and Native American Literatures (2003)
              - Face Zion Forward: First Writers of the Black Atlantic (2002)
              - [Her] edition of the Interesting Narrative of Olaudah Equiano (2004)
              - The Collected Writings of Samson Occom: Literature and Leadership in Eighteenth-Century Native America (2006) -- from her blog (link)↜ (‘Just M E ’here , now) 20:50, 8 October 2009 (UTC)
          The reference to Beck's conversion to Mormonism is a bit skewed. The source puts way to much emphasis on Skousen in Mormon circles. He was prominent in the 1960s when the US was very anti-Communist, but just like the rest of the country, Mormons have let the rhetoric of the past fade. I think you need sources about Mormonism and Communism to back up this source in order to validate statements like "A significant figure in this world [Mormon thought and culture] is the late Cleon Skousen." That statement is simply false. Or at best, very out of date. I think the influence of Mormonism is a big part of Beck's life, but to over emphasize Skousen as a core Mormon cultural influence is absolutely off base. They are separate issues. Also, Beck was impressed by one concept from Skousen, but not by all of Skousen's work, and to overstate the latter and to basically put a mini-bio of Skousen is way too much weight on the issue. I also think you need to find more neutral and more mainstream sources to consider this worthy of the amount of space being used to cover it. This is also clearly an opinion piece, as the comment, "It is likely that Beck owes his brand of Founding Father-worship to Mormonism" clearly says. If you include this source, it must be presented as this author's opinion of where Beck gets his ideals. So I would have the Beck article say something simple, like "Joanna Brooks believes that many of Beck's political views grew from his conversion to the LDS Church." That's basically what the source says. But to cherry pick the details to synth a connection to Skousen is far reaching.
  
        As to the second link, it is a primary source, not applicable to Wikipedia. Find a reliable secondary source that covers this as important, and then we can include it. It's also very long, and Beck covers a lot of ground. I see it being cherry picked to further a POV. I also hate tv interviews or show snippets because they are off the cuff, and easy to modify context. I would rather have his books cited because more thought is put in them, and they are sorely missing as sources for what Beck believes.Bytebear (talk) 22:23, 8 October 2009 (UTC)
  ---------------

  ↜ (‘Just M E ’here , now) 22:55, 8 October 2009 (UTC)

Bytebear's concerns

I cleaned up the section quite a bit. I removed some original research, and a lot of unnecessary commentary on Skousen and his books. Bytebear (talk) 01:05, 9 October 2009 (UTC)

Zaitchik's opinion (which most objective observers would agree is spot on, I think) that The 5 Thousand Year Leap views history through a Mormon lens should be restored IMO. As the section reads now, there is no mention of religion at all. (Well, that is, other than the description of Skousen as a theoconservative, which I've just added.)↜ (‘Just M E ’here , now) 01:31, 9 October 2009 (UTC)

I disagree. It is an opinion about a book, not about Beck. Put it in that article. If people want to do further research they have the links, but as is stands we are already giving far too much weight on a book Beck didn't even write. We have no sections on any of the books he actually did write. Don't you find that just a little bit lopsided? Bytebear (talk) 01:47, 9 October 2009 (UTC)

Per WP:PRESERVE (BTW, also compare WP:Other stuff exists), lack of balance in an article's coverage of things -- in this case, books -- would be remedied through expanding coverage of items that are missing -- in this case, Beck's best-selling books -- not by removing coverage which would be thought to belong in some "ideal article" (that's fully fleshed out).↜ (‘Just M E ’here , now) 01:59, 9 October 2009 (UTC)

Yes, expanding the details in the appropriate article. This is not that place to expand opinions and commentary on Skousen or his books. Even calling him a "theorepublican" in this article when his own article makes no specific claim is disingenuous. As I have said, this section is already too weighty on an issue that is very minor to Beck the person, and we do not need to expand into details not even covered in articled dealing with those topics specifically. Bytebear (talk) 02:05, 9 October 2009 (UTC)

For what it's worth, I'm in agreement that the Skousen section is now to large and should be pared down considerably.. For instance, it's not necessary to list so many of the books skousen authored - that is covered in the Wikipedia Skousen article. Also, so many details about Skousen are addressed in the Skousen article and including it in the Beck article is, IMO, (a) redundant and (b) not directly related to Beck himself - the subject of the article. SkagitRiverQueen (talk) 02:12, 9 October 2009 (UTC)

I have restored an earlier version of the entry, as it seems Bytebear unilaterally took it upon himself to override the collaboration Cptnono and I were working on. Bytebear, the entry is clearly relevant and notable - if you have concerns, lets discuss them on the TP before chopping the entry down to nothing so as to eliminate it (i.e. the desired result you have said you'd like to see).   Redthoreau (talk)RT 02:09, 9 October 2009 (UTC)

I don't recall consensus in this matter? and in fact, the discussion was about removing more than adding. If you feel a specific edit was out of line, please discuss them individually. What I removed were spurious descriptions of issues that don't belong in this article, descriptions of Skousen and his politics which have little if any bearing on Beck, and certainly are covered too weighty. The other stuff I edited were original research, cherry picking specific primary sources (interviews) to present a false conclusion of what Beck finds important politically.

for clarity, here is what I "chopped down to nothing":

According to Joanna Brooks, a scholar of American religion, one preeminent philosophical influence on Beck's political ideology has been W. Cleon Skousen (1913–2006). Skousen was an anti-communist and limited-government conservatism. Beck praises some of Skousen's ideas as "divinely inspired", specifically his book The 5,000 Year Leap, a book on the U.S. Constitution and American history, published in 1981, which Beck said in 2007 had "changed his life" and has been described as "required reading" to understand the current American political landscape. Beck authored a foreword for the 2008 edition of Leap and Beck's on-air recommendations in 2009 propelled the book to number one in the government category on Amazon for several months.

Bytebear (talk) 02:15, 9 October 2009 (UTC)

(outdent) Bytebear, Cptnono and I used collaboration; you however just decided to scrub the parts you didn't like without discussing them or providing rationale. I wrote the first entry, Cptnono proposed adjustments, and we adopted all of his suggestions. The next step by you should have been to point out your concerns over what was there so we could use the TP here to go over an additional proposed version. However, that is not what you did and you now have been reverted not only by me, but by User:Justmeherenow. None of the entry is WP:OR and all of it is cited. Per this "false" conclusion of what Beck finds important politically, we are relying on the words of Beck himself ...

"I went back and I read The Naked Communist and at the end of that Skousen predicted someday soon you won't be able to find the truth in schools or in libraries or anywhere else because it won't be in print anymore. So you must collect those books. It's an idea I read from Cleon Skousen from his book in the 1950s, The Naked Communist, and where he talked about someday the history of this country's going to be lost because it's going to be hijacked by intellectuals and communists and everything else. And I think we're there."

— Glenn Beck to Bill Bennett on his show, November 21, 2007

"The first thing you could do, is get The 5,000 Year Leap. Over my book or anything else, get The 5,000 Year Leap. [...] It is the principle. Please, No. 1 thing: Inform yourself about who we are and what the other systems are all about. The 5,000 Year Leap is the first part of that. Because it will help you understand American free enterprise. Make that dedication of becoming a September 12 person and I will help you do it next year."

— Glenn Beck on his December 18, 2008, radio show introducing his audience to the idea of a September twelfth person

So according to Beck, the US is on the brink of being "hijacked by intellectuals and communists" (per Skousen's analysis in The Naked Communist) and the No 1 principle for his 9/12 project is to read The 5,000 Year Leap (where he wrote the foreword) over even his own books. Yet, you don't believe there should be any mention of this in Beck's article because it is possibly unflattering. Well, Wikipedia does not WP:Censor material based off of it being controversial, conspiratorial or discredited. I believe that Cptnono and I were doing an adequate job of describing this matter with regards to WP:NPOV and WP:Undue, yet because you want the entire section removed - you began chopping it down to the point where eventually someone could then claim "it's not really notable, see there's little info on the issue".   Redthoreau (talk)RT 02:45, 9 October 2009 (UTC)

Thanks for the essay but it is all (cherry picked) original research. It is also undue weight, which is why it was removed. Verifiability is not the only criteria for inclusion, you know. As I said in my comments, there is not a single opinion or quote pulled from Beck's books, but there is all sorts of descriptions of Skousen and his books. That is a serious problem. It needed addressing. I am also disturbed at the lack of good faith assumed on your part and accusations of censorship. Removing qualifying material or requesting it go into a more appropriate article is not censorship, and I resent the accusation, particularly from someone who claims to be a proponent of civility. Finally, I will point you to wp:bold. Cheers.Bytebear (talk) 02:48, 9 October 2009 (UTC)

Bytebear, WP:OR would be if I claimed Beck told me this personally, however these remarks were made on national tv/radio and are thus included in the show's transcripts (which can be cited and would qualify as WP:RS. WP:OR for instance would be if I noted how Skousen believed the Rockefeller family had a secret communist plot to create a one world government through the U.N., and then noted how Beck --> clip used a segment on his show to "diagnose" potential sinister "communist"/"fascist" symbolism in Rockefeller plaza and at the U.N. (i.e. place of "World government"). That would be me personally connecting the dots, and thus WP:OR, however our entry does not do that, and relies on Beck's words himself and the published analysis of others. Anyone familiar with Skousen's ideas, can see them on display very transparently with Beck, although Beck is far more talented and entertaining in his presentation with them, and has thus has achieved a great deal of personal success (unlike Skousen, who was widely discredited even amongst the political right). Fact: Beck touts “The 5,000 Year Leap” as a life changing and “divinely inspired” text to millions of his viewers, and then the book arose out of dormant obscurity to sell 250,000 copies and go number 1 on Amazon. I am not sure why you feel this is an insignificant fact – and attempts to continually argue against its inclusion will only cause this matter to arise every few days as new editors arrive here wondering why there is no mention of the issue.   Redthoreau (talk)RT 03:10, 9 October 2009 (UTC)

• In my opinion, the sheer number of sources for the section that are "liberal" bespeak lack of balance -- which I'll try, at least, to rectify by maybe finding a useful quote from Mark Skousen's piece on Beck and his uncle in Human Events magazine.↜ (‘Just M E ’here , now) 03:06, 9 October 2009 (UTC)
  OK, I'll quote here a section from it.

  "912 is a play on “9-11” and refers to “nine values” and “12 principles” based on the Constitution, and in particular, his favorite book called The 5,000 Year Leap: The Miracle that Changed the World. ¶ Who is the author of The 5,000 Year Leap? My late uncle, W. Cleon Skousen! Cleon Skousen was a constitutional scholar, an FBI agent (and special assistant to J. Edgar Hoover), author of The Naked Communist and the thousand year books about the Bible, and a devoted family man. ¶ In politics, my uncle was passionate about the U. S. Constitution, which he felt was inspired by God and the reason behind America’s success as a nation. Throughout the 1980s and 1990s, he ran hundreds of Constitutional seminars around the country. ¶ His book The 5,000 Year Leap outlines 28 [JustMe notes: since 9 + 12 = 21, apparently Beck has refigured Cleon's material somewhat] reasons why the U. S. Constitution created the miracle we call America, and led the world out of agrarian poverty and into a new modern age of prosperity -- a 5,000 year leap from men plowing fields to walking in space."

  Any suggestions on any useful quote, bit of shading or turn of phrase to be gleaned from it from any editors out there?↜ (‘Just M E ’here , now) 03:45, 9 October 2009 (UTC)

But my changes did not remove the connections you assert. They simply removed commentary and original research as well as removed superfluous information about Skousen. For example what does "[Skousen], whose works involve a diverse range of subjects (including, for example, "the Red Menace", proposed divine inspiration of the United States Constitution, Christian child rearing, Mormon eschatology, history, and New World Order conspiracies)." have to do with Beck at all? Who cares what other books Skousen wrote, and has Beck ever EVER commented on "Christian child rearing?" This is fluff to add synth to Beck implying he also has similar views. Bytebear (talk) 03:11, 9 October 2009 (UTC)

Bytebear, again you mention "Original research" without any specifics. What do you contend specifically was WP:OR in the version you amended?   Redthoreau (talk)RT 03:27, 9 October 2009 (UTC)

Thanks for the heads up, Bytebear. As it turns out, these three reveiws of So You Want to Raise a Boy? I see on Amazon don't talk about any inspirational content to this book so for now I'll remove Christian from child-raising.↜ (‘Just M E ’here , now) 03:20, 9 October 2009 (UTC)

Byteebear is correct. I like the "essay" as he called it but it might be too SYNTHY for Wikipeida. Are there any sources we can find to connect some of the writer's specific believes with Beck? If not, it is not a big deal. He has been an influence and that is shown even if the text is reduced further. Notability guidelines also don't apply here, Redthoreau (notability does not limit content but is for articles as a whole). Lets clean it up a bit and find some other influences to make this a good summary of his influences. Cptnono (talk) 03:22, 9 October 2009 (UTC)

Cptnono, I believe "the essay" was a snarky remark towards the length of my reply to Bytebear, not the entry per se (although I could be wrong). As for Skousen's ideas, many of them can be connected to Beck, as post-2007 when he claims Skousen's book "changed his life" he has been espousing "Skousian" ideas very frequently - although more reliable sources would have to be found. As for additional influences on Beck, that would be great. I would imagine that Thomas Paine, could be an additional entry worthy of inclusion. I have also seen Beck speak several times on how much he was influenced by Robert Gellately's book Lenin, Stalin, and Hitler: The Age of Social Catastrophe and by the works of Thomas Sowell and Ayn Rand (whose Objectivist Center spokesman he frequently hosts as a guest on his show).   Redthoreau (talk)RT 03:36, 9 October 2009 (UTC)

Original research is taking interviews of Beck and deciding which of his comments are important enough to add to the article. It violates WP:EL and it is poor scholarship. Find a third party reliable source that makes the connections you feel are so strong and we can discuss them. As it is, the quotes above don't fit the bill. Shall we enter the entire content of every interview Beck has done? I can certainly add a lot about how he feels on any number of topics. I am sure I would be shot down for grandstanding on a specific issue. The same is being done here. There is far to much emphasis on this issue. For example, Beck named one of his books "Common Sense" but there is not a word about his admiration for Thomas Paine. As to the mini-biography of Skousen. Who cares what Skousen wrote about child rearing. It isn't relevant to this article. None of the details in that list are. Why are we bothering telling the reader of the Beck article about the extensive biographical details of Skousen? Bytebear (talk) 03:37, 9 October 2009 (UTC)

THe last comments were made before the reply by Red, so I will respond and elaborate. There are two issues. 1) you are presenting original research in your assertion that "many of them can be connected to Beck." They should be sourced by third party reliable sources, and they should be presented in context (i.e. "So and so believes that many of them can be connected to Beck"). Beck was influenced by many sources and it appears to me that the one book (Leap) was his only real inspiration from Skousen. To imply the inspiration goes beyond that is POV and OR. 2) the inclusion of the extraneous Skousen information is there simply to add synth and imply that Beck is also in agreement with the other many activities of Skousen. My changes removed both issues, and tightened up the content to be inclusive but not overly specific. I like the idea of adding other influences (Paine), but I think we cannot say Skousen was an influence but rather some of his ideas (specifically in "Leap") were an influence. Bytebear (talk) 03:44, 9 October 2009 (UTC)

Bytebear, as for the "third party sources" who made the connection, Alexander Zaitchik in Salon Magazine did in his article "Meet the Man who Changed Glenn Beck's Life". Per Thomas Paine, I mentioned him in the above post, and would welcome his addition as well. As for why we were briefly "telling the reader" about Skousen's usual book content, it was because most people are probably not familiar with the sort of issues Skousen wrote about, and the description utilized was taken from the Salon article above which made the connection. Additionally, these aforementioned matters are ones which Beck frequently discusses (i.e. the fear of World government --> clip, communist takeover --> clip, end times --> clip, and conspiracy theories --> clip. (forgive the youtube sourcing, as I wouldn't utilize them as ref's in an article, they are merely used here as a quick way to demonstrate the veracity of the claim).   Redthoreau (talk)RT 04:07, 9 October 2009 (UTC)

And if you look at the changes I proposed I didn't remove the "influenced by" information, did I? If people want to do further reading on Skousen, they can click on the link to his article. Adding a mini-bio of him is overkill and I suspect used to add synth to the article. I also find Salon to be less reliable than say the NYTimes, or NBC. after all the article subtitle is "Cleon Skousen was a right-wing crank whom even conservatives despised." Hardly a neutral opinion of Skousen. If we do use the Salon ref, we must present it as an opinion of the author (and probably mention that the author thinks Skousen is a "right-wing crank") and not as a fact. In short, find a better source than this hack. Bytebear (talk) 04:12, 9 October 2009 (UTC)

I agree with Bytebear there again. Nice catch by Redthoreau there. Make sure we are using RS or are at least presenting not opinion pieces appropriately. I haven't even tried goggle newsing or scholaring it. Has anyone else? I assume this should be easy to source but haven't tried myself.Cptnono (talk) 05:06, 9 October 2009 (UTC)

"New World Order" issue

I should also point out that although the "new world order" conspiracy has nothing whatsoever to do with Beck, it is also misleading to call Skousen's opinions of the topic a conspiracy. There is the New World Order (conspiracy theory) which is a specific belief in an underground organization (NWO) taking over the world governments, and there is a new world order which is a international relations theory dealing with nations working toward world goals and losing their sovereignty in the meantime, that is no way related to any conspiracies. They should not be confused and the former should not be attributed to Skousen. And none of this is relevant to Beck other than he believes in sovereignty of the US, one of many issues Beck comments on. Bytebear (talk) 04:12, 9 October 2009 (UTC)

Except for the fact that Skousen began to connect his "New World Order" theories around a "conspiracy" involving David Rockefeller (amongst many things) --> clip. Skousen's (NWO) theory was one where powerful capitalists like the Rockefeller & Rothschild’s family aligned themselves with communists like Mao Zedong to create a new global order around what he deemed "socialist subjugation". This is far different, from those who advocate for mundane global issues like unified environmental standards etc. For instance, wanting everyone in the world to adopt the metric system for continuity, is a far cry from believing that a small cabal is trying to enslave us all through manipulation.   Redthoreau (talk)RT 04:32, 9 October 2009 (UTC)

Nothing matters without sources linking the primary subject(Beck) to it. Lets just stick to that and there should be no worries.Cptnono (talk) 04:37, 9 October 2009 (UTC)

So you agree that the "new world order" mini-bio info on Skousen is inappropriate to this article? Bytebear (talk) 04:41, 9 October 2009 (UTC)

The opinion that Skousen has a strong connection to Beckian thought ([sic]/feeling?) and what some of these connections are have been covered in the legacy media, so by Wikipedia's definitions, WP's coverage being extended to an explanation of this perceived connection is important. Yet, of course, what we need to be sure of is that our presentation of these opinions are balanced per WP:NPOV -- yet, remember, per WP:PRESERVE, for the most part such balance is not to be achieved only by way of the deletion or the purposely leaving out of notable opinions with the rationale that yet other opinions and info have not yet been contributed to the article.↜ (‘Just M E ’here , now) 04:54, 9 October 2009 (UTC)

Bytebear, I wouldn't deem the referenced few words on Skousen having written about "New World Order conspiracies" a "mino bio". Skousen believed that there was a small group of people trying to secretly behind the scenes create a new global structure around "leftist" political ideals - Glenn Beck has also stated that he believes this several times (including for instance the mention above where Beck cites Skousen's The Naked Communist as reinforcing this belief). That's why those couple of words are relevant.   Redthoreau (talk)RT 04:49, 9 October 2009 (UTC)

Of course it's a mini-bio. It's a fluff piece of synth to guide the reader into an implication that Beck also believes in the various ideas of Skousen. By the way, the Skousen article doesn't even have a source to Rockafeller, so I would work on that article before introducing "facts" here. As to what Beck has said on his show, it's all primary in source which is in violation of WP:EL. Find third party sources that say more that "Beck has loony ideas" and we can work with something. But even then, prove to me that those YouTube snippets are really more relevant than the books he has written. Clearly you want to add as much polemic material as you can, and as long as Beck has said X, and you think X is outrageous, you must include it. But the fact is, until several news sources cover a specific comment or ideology, it is undue weight. I have yet to be convinced that any of the examples you cite rise to such a standard. Bytebear (talk) 04:55, 9 October 2009 (UTC)

"By the way, the Skousen article doesn't even have a source to Rockafeller" ... Bytebear, I count 4 mentions of "Rockefeller" in Cleon Skousen's article. It is important to spell his name right though, and then just push Ctrl + F.   Redthoreau (talk)RT 05:00, 9 October 2009 (UTC)

I also saw that, but each had a little [Citation Needed] next to them. Perhaps you misunderstand the difference between content a sources.Bytebear (talk) 05:09, 9 October 2009 (UTC)

Bytebear, only 1 of the 4, not "each" have a [Citation Needed] tag next to them. Perhaps you misunderstood the difference between 25 % and 100 % :o)   Redthoreau (talk)RT 05:15, 9 October 2009 (UTC)

And the other three point to a YouTube video. Enough said. Bytebear (talk) 05:27, 9 October 2009 (UTC)

It becomes difficult if you are going to continue to change your argument when the previous one shows to be false. But this issue really isn't that important anyway - althogh accuracy is.   Redthoreau (talk)RT 05:35, 9 October 2009 (UTC)

The original comment was that "the Skousen article doesn't even have a source" which is technically correct considering YouTube videos are not considered reliable, and it should be removed. But if you want to pick nits, be my guest. It doesn't change the fact that the information on Rockefeller and Skousen as covered in Wikipedia is pathetic. Clearly you have a different criteria for what constitutes a reliable source. Bytebear (talk) 05:41, 9 October 2009 (UTC)

I believe anything that has a source that doesn't mention Beck should go. That would prevent any confusion. Doesn't mean we can't find the sources but this way there will be double standard and all of the standards will for sure be followed. Beck has been influenced by the writer per the sources. This is sourced (cite episode alone is good enough here). What portions of his philosophy I don't know but hopefully the sources do.Cptnono (talk) 04:53, 9 October 2009 (UTC)

"I believe anything that has a source that doesn't mention Beck should go." = I agree. Which one's currently do not?   Redthoreau (talk)RT 04:55, 9 October 2009 (UTC)

I am very troubled by the Salon article. It is clearly biased, and it is being used for much of the Skousen material. For example the list of Skousen's works is opined thus: "It is a body of work that does much to explain Glenn Beck's bizarre conspiratorial mash-up of recent months" If we want to list Skousen's works from this source (which I think we should not), then we should add that the author believes that it generated "bizarre conspiratorial mash-ups" but you see, now that this is clearly a very POV statement, yet we keep one part out of context because the context is POV. Bytebear (talk) 05:02, 9 October 2009 (UTC)

This recent LATimes piece (not YouTube) includes reference to Beck, Skousen, Rockerfeller, and the New World Order, I think.↜ (‘Just M E ’here , now) 05:38, 9 October 2009 (UTC)

interesting that the Times article references the Salon article. Bias upon bias. Fascinating. In fact, reading further, there could be a claim of plagiarism since much of the content is very similar: "[Skousen] authored more than a dozen books and pamphlets on Christian child-rearing, the communist threat to the United States, the global conspiracy of a New World Order and Mormon end-times prophecy." Sound familiar? Oh, now I get it. This is an anonymous blog. Can you say "unreliable?" Bytebear (talk) 05:43, 9 October 2009 (UTC)

The LAT's liberal bias notwithstanding, Zaitchik's being pointed to by its art critic shows Z's opinion w/re Quigley-Skousen-Beck-Rockerfeller is notable.↜ (‘Just M E ’here , now) 05:52, 9 October 2009 (UTC)

It's not a reliable source. It is a plagiarized anonymous blog. Can you find a worse source to reference? Seriously. Bytebear (talk) 05:54, 9 October 2009 (UTC)

The writer is the art critic for the LA Times. His opinion could be used per WP:SPS in some circumstances. I think Salon and this source are perfect examples of when to use caution, though. We don't want to apply to much synth or assume what beliefs had an influence on Beck. This isn't really a problem though "Dude(wikilink) was a controversial author" summarizes it enough if we are going to be super cautious. It shouldn't be this hard to find sources. Has anyone tried googling to see if the forward to book is available online? That would be a great resource.Cptnono (talk) 05:56, 9 October 2009 (UTC)

Well, I wouldn't be surprised if Fox News does a plagiarism story about this guy. It is so blatant, that it's a bit scary for such a reputable newspaper. If the opinion of an art critic on political ideology is the best we can do, we are doomed. Bytebear (talk) 06:02, 9 October 2009 (UTC)

I'll go a step farther. If we have to rely on those we suck.Cptnono (talk) 06:04, 9 October 2009 (UTC)

The dude, Christopher Knight, was critiquing Beck's art criticism. A New York group even offered for Beck to design a show of art he approved, however Beck apparently ignored em, since I've never read anything about their offer since. (You think Beck approves of this work by Jon McNaughton?)↜ (‘Just M E ’here , now) 06:10, 9 October 2009 (UTC)

Oh, by the way, in this painting by Jon McNaughton, in its foreground somewhere within the crowd of people is a figure representing a student; and in his is shown a copy of The 5,000 Year Leap.↜ (‘Just M E ’here , now) 05:59, 14 October 2009 (UTC)

I think you missed what I was trying to say. Since this is controversial and someone has brought up SYNTH we need to be super cautious. BLP and all. For now "Skousen was a controversial author" with a wikilink would work fine. We could also go something like this (slacker way out with still a little bit of synth). If we want to do what is unquestionably appropriate we find sources that say "I Beck was influenced by x, y, and z." Since he is on the radio (cite episode) and did a froward to a book by the guy this shouldn't be hard. I am not coming up with the forward in a google book or scholar but I'll keep on looking. Let me know if you find it.Cptnono (talk) 06:21, 9 October 2009 (UTC)

“[Beck] noted that a key to this awakening is the kind of education that happens at GWU [George Wythe University] -- studying original sources so that students “learn how to find the answers,” said Beck, and to think for themselves rather than rely solely upon textbooks and professors. ¶ “Quite honestly, the first thing that attracted me was that to graduate you have to know all of the principles behind The Five Thousand Year Leap,” Beck said in a separate interview. “It is the book to read for this period in our country’s history.” ¶ The first of three dozen books read during the freshman year, W. Cleon Skousen’s The Five Thousand Year Leap identifies 28 principles the American Founders relied upon to establish a free society. “By Winter Semester, freshmen are citing all 28 principles during debates, simulations, and oral exams,” said Andrew Groft, University President.” (link)

Glenn Beck, dressed up in Colonial garb, in his native Washington State as a youth a quarter-century ago.↜ (‘Just M E ’here , now) 07:03, 9 October 2009 (UTC)

It is already established that he thinks people should read it.Cptnono (talk) 08:28, 9 October 2009 (UTC)

Glenn   &   James
[ --> YouTube ]

Beck's recent defense of Leap. [Edited: Response to comment above]: Well, I guess so, but just in case we haven't ^{;^)} here's Beck's defense of The 5,000 Year Leap on his radio show against Carville's "diss" against the book when James and Mary guested on the Sunday-morning current events show hosted by John King on CNN this week. (See thumnail caption for link.) ↜ (‘Just M E ’here , now) 08:56, 9 October 2009 (UTC)

I don't understand what you are getting at. Oops, get it after rereading your comment. Carville dissed Beck. The Beck dissed him and said "I like it is because it is an easy gateway to the founders." and "It is the best book out there on the founding of the country that is digestible". He then mentions that books mention how a couple of presidents ruined the country but he would rather read Leap. He also makes fun of the left alot but that has nothing to do with the book. By the way, if you have the date of the show we can cite episode without a URL to the video (transcript would be nice, though).Cptnono (talk) 09:52, 9 October 2009 (UTC)

Its vid says October fifth.↜ (‘Just M E ’here , now) 10:09, 9 October 2009 (UTC)

Do you know if that is the broadcast date or the upload date? Not sure if it is a copyright vio or not but ignoring that parameter: Template:Cite episode Cptnono (talk) 10:18, 9 October 2009 (UTC)

-- It is the date of the program: which was this-last Monday. Carville was on John King, Sunday-the-fourth, so Glenn's response would have to have been no earlier than the fifth, next day (since his radio show airs Mondays-through-Fridays but not Weekends).↜ (‘Just M E ’here , now) 10:52, 9 October 2009 (UTC)

Well if the template is followed [9] might be a good source. We cannot link to it, though.Cptnono (talk) 10:56, 9 October 2009 (UTC)

why are we relying on primary sources. That implies the notability of the issue is low, and that concerns me. Second, the George Wythe source is about Beck's donations to a cause. I find it amazing that we ignore the actual noteworthy topic (donating money) and don't even consider adding it to the article, while finding the needle in the haystack so we can push this agenda of ensuring that Beck is unequivocally linked to Skousen. Does anyone out there understand my point? Bytebear (talk) 15:48, 9 October 2009 (UTC)

*****
Bytebear said, "[...]finding the needle in the haystack so we can push this agenda of ensuring that Beck is unequivocally linked to Skousen. Does anyone out there understand my point?"

In part. About which more, later.

<begin rant>But first, this. Your points, Bytebear, in their various shadings, confuse me some. Why must it be assumed that being associated with this former BYU associate professor should be thought only some necessarily bad thing, huh? Geez, pundit Glenn Beck himself has extolled Skousen a lot, Mitt Romney expressed pride in having been taught by him, Orrin Hatch wrote metered poesy in the man's honor, he is soon to be feted* with an op-ed and/or positive-spin feature article in the Ogden Standard-Examiner (the biggest city-city, as Whoopi Goldberg would say, close to the Idaho home of Skousen's National Center for Constitutional Studies).

---------------

*We [The Standard-Examiner] plan on running a local column soon defending Skousen and Beck; the latter’s popularity no one contests. Here, by the way, is a USA Today column from Jonah Goldberg defending Beck from recent attacks from some moderate conservative pundits: Read.

=========

-- Ahem. Anyway, so what's this deal with all this denial? (Which ain't no river in Egypt, you know.) Hey: "Socialism" is what Sweden proudly practices and Democrats might aspire to. Why not admit the same? Why deny? **I** am a socialist. Social Security and Unemployment Insurance are socialist programs. As are student loans. And a whole long list! So freakin what? Why deny that a socialist -- and a particularly Red one -- was a friend of Obama's in the person of Professor Bill Ayers? That Van Jones's flirtation with Communism is or was but a philosophical thing, really -- a phase not unlike Ronald Reagan's once socialistic leanings back in the early 1950s -- before the Red Scare? Why all this pussy footing around with the truth? Man up, people. Skousen was a very bright, very devout in his faith, seemingly very devoted family man whose writings inspired and also provided a framework for thought for very many people from various religious backgrounds and there should not necessarily be any real shame in one's having been or currently being a student and/or apostle of at least some of Skousen's ideas: something it would appear that Beck himself does not seem to shy away from saying. Indeed, I've certainly never read any kind of equivocation from Beck with regard to his admiration for Skousen or Skousen's various threads of ideas, and this anywhere, ever. I actually think Beck likely gives Skousen's writings the benefit of the doubt. I believe he considers himself a Skousen follower of sorts. And I think Beck's own statements tend to reveal the same.

Nonetheless, the fact is, Beck himself is somewhat of a McCarthy-type figure. (I said sort of.) And that's just a fact. (I'm talking Joseph, duh, not Eugene.) This implies no condemnation of McCarthy, either. McCarthy's most basic premise about the danger of Communism isn't denied by the U.S. mainstream, really. (People like Ayers notwithstanding.)

Yet, why must Wikipedia be so afraid of admissions of fact? When there are ample secondary sources outlining that Bill Ayers was an associate of Obama's, why not delineate whatever were the known parameters of their relationship, a bit, within Obama's BLP?

Instead, we get these mamby-pamby arguments about how some fact will make it seem like some relationship existed that didn't. Can't we respect our readers' intelligence? Or at least allow them to draw their own conclusions, based on the available, known information? The same goes for discussion of an association with a writer who was controversial at times. So what? Why be afraid to grant some coverage, as found in the reliable, secondary sources?<end of rant>

And now to speak to your question, Bytebear. Yes, primary sources are problematic. But they show what the writers of the secondary sources are reading, before they came to hold anew or else re-apply whatever their pre-existing slants. So, comparing these primary sources with the secondary ones based on them provides a measure of background to Wikipedia editors to assist in counteracting whatever slants as may well be found within these secondary sources. {sorry, too long. I'm not usually an essayist here on Wikipedia, so cut me a break this time, I beg. please?}
*****↜ (‘Just M E ’here , now) 16:50, 9 October 2009 (UTC)

Ok, you are clearly missing my point. Yes, Beck has promoted the 2000 Year Leap. He feels that specific book is vital to teaching people about the purpose and founding of the United States. He feels that people have lost touch with what the Founding Fathers taught, and that the country has moved away from the original ideals of them. I never said the information should be removed. If you look at my suggested copy, it discussed both Skousen and the book. What I do object to are poor sources that add commentary to the facts. This is POV, plain and simple. Especially when we present these opinions as facts. The sources suck. And even when you find a decent source, you ignore the main thesis in favor of finding the one line in the source that mentions something about Skousen. For crying out loud, an art critic's blog was proposed as a source! Are you F-ing kidding me? As to primary sources, if Beck says X, and the only people that comment on it is the left-wing blogoshere, rhen we can safely assume the issue is not noteworthy, and if it is noteworthy, someone of some credibility will comment on it. Now, imagine if we actually used the more strict rules of Wikipedia that said we should rely on peer reviewed academic sources, notability really is put into perspective. Bytebear (talk) 17:01, 9 October 2009 (UTC)

• "Beck guru Cleon Skousen explains the communist, capitalist, biblical conspiracy" (Media Matters)↜ (‘Just M E ’here , now) 23:46, 16 October 2009 (UTC)

Art Review "Power 100"

ArtReview ranked Glenn Beck at No. 100 in its "Power 100" for 2009.

Mention of God/theoconservatism

This is how it works. Zaitchik says,

"'Leap'[...is an] attempt to explain American history through an unspoken lens of Mormon theology. As such, it is an early entry in the ongoing attempt by the religious right to rewrite history. Fundamentalists want to define the United States as a Christian nation rather than a secular republic, and recasting the Founding Fathers as devout Christians guided by the Bible rather than deists inspired by the French and English philosophers. 'Leap' argues that the U.S. Constitution is a godly document above all else, based on natural law, and owes more to the Old and New Testaments than to the secular and radical spirit of the Enlightenment [...] The book reads exactly like what it was until Glenn Beck dragged it out of Mormon obscurity: a textbook full of aggressively selective quotations intended for conservative religious schools like Utah's George Wythe University, where it has been part of the core freshman curriculum for decades (and where Beck spoke at this year's annual fundraiser).

Then Andrew Sullivan comes along and decribes Skousenian-Beckian thought (per Zaitchik) as "[...]a combination of theoconservatism, American exceptionalism and populism[...]." (link).↜ (‘Just M E ’here , now) 02:14, 10 October 2009 (UTC)

This means, according to these two quotes (not to mention others by the Boston Phoenix/Religious Dispatches/Ogden Standard-Examiner/Salt Lake Trubune/and on and on), Beck's and Skousen's political worldviews are partly theoconservative.

And how about the primary sources? Well, let's look at Leap.

Its 28 Principles, somewhat paraphrased

1. Natural or God's Law
2. Virtue and morals
3. Elect virtuous leaders
4. Without religion public morals cannot be maintained.
5. Equality of humankind
6. Equal rights
7. But not equal things
8. Role of government is to provide rights to life and liberty.
9. Scriptural divine law
10. Rights to govern reside in the whole people.
11. A majority can overthrow a tyranny.
12. U.S. is to be a republic.
13. With "Constitutional" protections
14. Property rights
15. Maximal, free enterprise (quote): "1.The Freedom to try. (2.) The Freedom to buy. (3.) The Freedom to sell. (4.) The Freedom to fail."
16. Three branches of federal gov't
17. Checks and balances
18. A written Constitution
19. Limited government with many rights retained by the people
20. Operate via majority rule with Constitutional rights maintaining rights of those in the minority
21. Strong local gov't
22. Rule of law, not an authority's whims
23. Educated populace
24. Maintain peace through staying strong.
25. Be on friendly terms with other nations.
26. (Quote): "The core unit which determines the strength of any society is the family; therefore the government should foster and protect its integrity."
27. Avoid debt.
28. (Quote): "The United Stateshas a manifest destiny to eventually become a glorious example of God's law under a restored Constitution that will inspire the entire human race."

Then, do the same thing with Beck's 9-plus-12 principles and values.

Yes, these are theoconservatism, per its dictionary definition. Bytebear, why would we want to delete this designation of theoconservatism, as had been credited to Zaitchik, in Beck's BLP as it pertains to this analysis or description of the framework of Skousenian and Beckian Conservatism, as credited to a valid 2ndary source and even the primary ones?↜ (‘Just M E ’here , now) 02:29, 10 October 2009 (UTC)

This is all original research. You are essentially taking the sources and creating your own conclusions. Bytebear (talk) 02:20, 10 October 2009 (UTC)

What is going on? This isn't a place for us to chit chat about it. I'm alright with some within reason but we are clearly getting away from improving the article. Before going for the inclusion of material, editors need to think if a "no comment" on TV, mention of a flu vaccine, and information about a writer that should be in another article really belong to this article.Cptnono (talk) 02:32, 10 October 2009 (UTC)

Nay, Bytebear, virtually all of the sources without exception who've examined Skousen have noticed the theological aspects to his political thought.↜ (‘Just M E ’here , now) 02:34, 10 October 2009 (UTC)

Cptnono, if Bytebear gives up his desire to remove the theological aspects of the Skousen section, then I will stop discussing this issue here. Otherwise, I hope this information proves its pertinence.↜ (‘Just M E ’here , now) 02:37, 10 October 2009 (UTC)

First of all, even if I thought the information was sound, it has no place in this article. Maybe in the Skousen article, but not here. Second, you are adding synth. Third, that synth is coming from original research. Finally, you are misunderstanding the actual term Theodemocracy. Read that article, study up some on LDS theology, and you will see that Skousen would never approve of such a thing. You have some research outside of Wikipedia to do. Bytebear (talk) 02:42, 10 October 2009 (UTC)

JMHN: If you come across disruptive you won't be improving the article if blocked or the page is locked. You are proving your point just fine but not doing anything that will help get information included. Find some sources (again, has anyone found the forward he wrote?) that are OK and there shouldn't be any worries. Cptnono (talk) 02:44, 10 October 2009 (UTC)

Do you have me confused with another editor? (After all, Cptnono, I generally keep to 1RR thus absolutely have never been blocked so far in my not unlengthy Wikicareer.)↜ (‘Just M E ’here , now) 03:29, 10 October 2009 (UTC)

Bytebear, you are speed reading. I wrote theoconservatism (a la the Natural Law, say, of Judge Bork). I never did, nor would I, suggest that Skousen advocated theodemocracy (a la LDS United Orders).

You are being careless whereas I am being careful with the sources. All of this information is simply to acknowledge the religious conservatism of Skousen-Beck, per virtually every source in the "Op-eds and feature articles" section of the talkpage above.↜ (‘Just M E ’here , now) 02:49, 10 October 2009 (UTC)

Cptnono, I sincerely tell you that you've lost me with your comment. Could you be specific? If you are disinterested in this topic, please contribute to discussions elsewhere on the page.↜ (‘Just M E ’here , now) 02:50, 10 October 2009 (UTC)

I.e., I don't edit war but discuss the edits on the talkpage. This is what I'm supposed to do, alas.↜ (‘Just M E ’here , now) 02:52, 10 October 2009 (UTC)

I think the point is, you have some very interesting ideas, but without a reliable third party source to take those ideas from, you cannot use them in the article. We can't take source 1 and source 2 and come to conclusion 3. We can only state source 1 and source 2 (assuming they are reliable and relevant). We are hoping you can find those sources so we can discuss how to use them, but for now, your sources and conclusions are lacking. I think the other issue is that these ideas really don't relate directly to Beck. They may be more useful in another artcle nore specific to the topic. Maybe The 5,000 Year Leap article. Bytebear (talk) 02:56, 10 October 2009 (UTC)

I know you don't. There is kind of one going on right now between two other editors that is aggravating. It comes also crossing the line from discussing page content to just discussing since youa aren't provding the needed sources. I already mentioned up above and here how to make it work. We need to find sources that say "Beck was influenced by x, y, and z". We cannot assume. Also keep in ind that some commentators and bloggers assume all the time. we have to be careful with how we use the sources. The best source I can think of would be the forward to Leap. Cptnono (talk) 02:59, 10 October 2009 (UTC)

-------
Note: (I later figured out apparently why Cptnono had thought I had been edit warring in article space; Jimintheatl was, in the "External links" section and hi/r username starts with J just like mine, with with 11 letters in hi/r name to 13 in mine.)↜ (‘Just M E ’here , now) 16:30, 11 October 2009 (UTC)

• Bytebear, the religious content that you had removed is now currently in the article in the Skousen section -- currently in a version of which *I* put it there. You wrote on one of our talkpages that you were disappointed in this content's restoration, thus my showing you that it is contained in Zaitchik. But the Zaitchik source already sources this info in the article, per a consensus of editors. ( -- Supplemented by a ref to Mark Skousen.)↜ (‘Just M E ’here , now) 03:11, 10 October 2009 (UTC)

I don't see anything in the article other than "[Skousen] felt [the US Constitution] was inspired by God and the reason behind America’s success as a nation." Even this sentence, good for the book article, or the Skousen Article, but has no reliance to Beck whatsoever. It should be removed from the article. If this is not what you are referring to, please be more specific. What "religious content" do you mean? Bytebear (talk) 03:31, 10 October 2009 (UTC)

Yes, that's it. Of course, we'd had more but you'd removed it. So I put this quote from Mark Skousen in, in its place, which, while not perfect, nonetheless acts as a reasonable placeholder for this important aspect. (Until something better comes along such as perhaps from Beck's forward to Leap?)↜ (‘Just M E ’here , now) 03:43, 10 October 2009 (UTC)

There is nothing wrong with the sentence. There is a problem with it being in this article. It has no connection to Beck at all. It should be removed. It's a great little quote for the Skousen page or the book page. I would have no problem adding it to either of those articles. But why do you want it here? And why are you trying to link it to theoconservatism? Bytebear (talk) 03:52, 10 October 2009 (UTC)

Here's a problem. The theoconservatism article is relying on one reference [[10]]. It is weak. And it has nothing whatsoever to do with Mormonism. I think you are going to have an uphill battle trying to link the two. In fact, I would argue for deltion of that article, as the term really seems to be fringe. Bytebear (talk) 04:00, 10 October 2009 (UTC)

(<sighs> I find it frustrating to try to engage in a productive discussion with someone who would write that theoconservatism has nothing to do with Mormonism.) Forget the multisyllable word, if that is your stalling tactic. (If you had ever lived in Utah and believed there was no religiously based conservatism there, I'd be hard pressed to believe you, however. Also, Bytebear, are you reading my comments? Above, I say how I would never dream of linking anything to theodemocracy so why do you bring up this concept which has zero place in this discussion as far as I can tell?)

Beck's and Skousen's religiously tinged political thought of limited government {as opposed to "liberal" religiously tinged, "social gospel" activism labeled as being on the left} is sourced via this entire section of primary Skousen material as well as the dozen links above in the "Op-eds and feature articles" sections.↜ (‘Just M E ’here , now) 04:15, 10 October 2009 (UTC)

I understand that you have a very strong opinion, and I am sure living in Utah has molded this thought, but you are not providing enough to warrant inclusion of these conclusions. Also, to my knowledge Beck does not, nor has he lived in Utah, so clearly you are attributing a culture to a man without any validity other than your POV. Utah is clearly culturally influenced by Mormonism, but politically, there are liberals, conservatives, democrats and republicans, so I still can't justify your theo-conservative accusations. You are simply pulling too many unrelated concepts into this theory, and into the article. And the superfluous information about Skousen still needs to be removed. Bytebear (talk) 04:33, 10 October 2009 (UTC)

We're going to need several ironclad reliable sources if we are going to stick a pejorative spike such as "theo-conservative" into Beck's article and label him as that. So far, I have seen nothing to merit this. The Squicks (talk) 04:14, 10 October 2009 (UTC)

Bytebear, you claim you don't understand how Beck could be classed a religiously-tinged political conservative, but how could you have read many of our article's various sources about him and class him as anything but? (This is a real question. Please answer without going off on all these distracting tangents such as the fact that when Beck lived in Salt Lake City in his late teens he was not yet Mormon.)↜ (‘Just M E ’here , now) 04:44, 10 October 2009 (UTC)

Bytebear said, "Beck does not, nor has he lived in Utah."

Bytebear <shakes head> ---- I'm speechless. (Why are you even here editing this article?)↜ (‘Just M E ’here , now) 04:48, 10 October 2009 (UTC)

First of all, you are bordering incivility. Second, the vast majority of criticism and classification of Beck's views come from biased left-wing sources. Third, no one has suggested that Beck's political views aren't influenced by his religious conversion. I don't think Beck even denies that. But you are carrying it to the extreme. You essentially take a whole bunch of opinions, figure out how they work with your own pet theories, and conclude that you must be correct. After all, how could I be so blind as to not see the obvious. But the bigger problem is that Wikipedia doesn't care about any of that. It only reports from reliable third party sources as to what has been said or opined about Beck. Wikipedia doesn't care about truth. It cares about verifiability and notability. Neither of which your ideas qualify as. Bytebear (talk) 04:58, 10 October 2009 (UTC)

Beck did live in Utah -- but, whether he did or not is a distraction having little to do with the matter at hand, I'm afraid (nor does your guess that I myself had once lived there for a year or two... )

Wrt your "strawman": What precisely is this "pet theory" of mine that you profess to believe I am pushing? (Which you say that you disagree with?)

Actual material presented in accordacne with editing guidelines (which, to my knowledge, you seem to be acccepting the veracity of?): According to (a) Mark Skousen's cheering piece (b) Beck's own works (c) the "active-Mormon" scholar who wrote the fairly-well balanced piece in Religion Dispatches, and (d) Zaitchik's polemic, Beck was influenced by his religious sensibility which also greatly informed his political conservatism. This is universally observed by those who look into the influences -- in particular that of Cleon Skousen -- and the particular characteristics of Beck's political thought.↜ (‘Just M E ’here , now) 05:23, 10 October 2009 (UTC)

You just summarized the theory you are presenting. "Beck was influenced by his religious sensibility which also greatly informed his political conservatism." But you extend it beyond that simple statement. You present this opinion as fact. You do not wish to assert it as an opinion, and give no reference to those who present it, and you extend it well beyond the basic statement and label it "theoconservatism" And you bring in superfluous information about Skousen in an effort to reflect those unrelated items to Beck (in an effort, I believe to discredit and defame Beck). That, for a start is what is wrong with what you propose. Bytebear (talk) 05:39, 10 October 2009 (UTC)

Bytebear, it is interesting that you reference non-exitent proposed texts in order to claim I am trying to place un-credited polemics in the article. The record will show that my edits to this article have consistently attempted balance in their wording and sourcing. Sourcing contrubutions of this nature is a collaborative process and I welcome the insistence that claims, even ones that have received quite of bit of coverage in the legacy media, be couched in terms identifying them as opinions. That is important.↜ (‘Just M E ’here , now) 15:10, 10 October 2009 (UTC)

You had quoted the section on the inspiration of the US Consitution. The merits of including this is what we are discussing here. This material is important because of the widely acknowledged theoconservative nature of Beck's political thought.

Again, the sources I've provided in this talkpage section are posted here to support what is currently in the article -- and, meanwhile, the article's mention of Skousen's influence on Beck is credited to the piece in Religion Dispatches.↜ (‘Just M E ’here , now) 05:58, 10 October 2009 (UTC)

And round and round we go. The source(s) you provided are not detailed enough, nor reliable enough, nor direct enough, nor neutral enough to warrant the conclusions you propose. The statement "widely acknowledged theoconservative nature of Beck's political" is an opinion. Not all people share that, and in fact, I would bet very few outside the critical left would even consider it. It is polemic and defamatory. And if you want to add it, you better find a really good source from a really reliable person who can be used as an example of this opinion. Bytebear (talk) 16:17, 10 October 2009 (UTC)

Think about this. It took months of long analysis to determine the way we present whether Beck is a conservative or a libertarian. And even then we had to back it up by his words defining himself. And you want to present him as a theoconservative as fact, with outside opinions of left wing bloggers? Bytebear (talk) 16:45, 10 October 2009 (UTC)

Bytebear, you don't think Skousen is an influence, but the consensus so far is against you. Please don't pretend that I'm proposing text that I never have proposed. In fact, in general, I'd really appreciate it that if you're gonna post stuff on the talkpage that you'd make the effort to please try to keep up with what's been said. For example, just above in this thread I'd said not once but twice (this is now the third time) that the text under dispute is the quote from Mark Skousen you'd said (on my talkpage and now in this thread) that you would like to remove. I've given arguments here why I believe it should stay, nonetheless some turn of phrase or multisyllable word I happen to use here on the talkpage is NOT TEXT I AM PROPOSING FOR CONTRIBUTION to the article. (I've also said this twice, just above.) Don't take this the wrong way, but I'd really prefer it if you'd acknowledge this to yourself before responding here again. (BTW, when I'd contributed both the Mark Skousen quote and the concept of Skousen's having been an influence on Beck to the article, I'd sourced these both as opinions and attributed them to Mark Skousen or to Religion Dispatches, so I don't know what your red herring is about with concern to my supposedly desiring to contribute unattributed opinions. I've repeated this stuff twice in this very post, the second time just for emphasis, so please don't ignore it, requiring me to re-state it again and this time for the 5th time!)↜ (‘Just M E ’here , now) 01:28, 11 October 2009 (UTC)

• Text under dispute. I propose that the following be retained in the article.

  According to Joanna Brooks, a scholar of American religion, one preeminent philosophical influence on Beck's political ideology has been W. Cleon Skousen (1913–2006).[11] Skousen was an anti-communist[12] and limited-government conservative[13] whose works involve a diverse range of subjects (including, for example, Mormon eschatology, New World Order conspiracies, history, and even child rearing. Beck praises Skousen's "words of wisdom" as "divinely inspired", referencing Skousen's The Naked Communist[14] and especially The 5,000 Year Leap (originally published in 1981), which Beck said in 2007 had "changed his life". Leap reflects Skousen's passion for the United States Constitution, which, according to his nephew Mark Skousen, Skousen "felt was inspired by God and the reason behind America’s success as a nation."[15] The book is touted by Beck as "required reading" to understand the current American political landscape and become a "September twelfth person".[16] Beck authored a foreword for the 2008 edition of Leap and Beck's on-air recommendations in 2009 propelled the book to number one in the government category on Amazon for several months.[17]

  ↜ (‘Just M E ’here , now) 01:45, 11 October 2009 (UTC)

You really didn't read the version that I recommended, or you would never had said "you don't think Skousen is an influence". I clearly think the opinion Joanna Brooks should be included. I thing two things are wrong however. 1) too much detail about Skousen adding synth to this article. and 2) trying to define Beck as a theoconservative, a blatant use of POV using a fringe term. Bytebear (talk) 19:29, 11 October 2009 (UTC)

Here is my copy for reference:

According to Joanna Brooks, a scholar of American religion, one preeminent philosophical influence on Beck's political ideology has been W. Cleon Skousen (1913–2006). Skousen was an anti-communist and limited-government conservatism. Beck praises some of Skousen's ideas as "divinely inspired", specifically his book The 5,000 Year Leap, a book on the U.S. Constitution and American history, published in 1981, which Beck said in 2007 had "changed his life" and has been described as "required reading" to understand the current American political landscape. Beck authored a foreword for the 2008 edition of Leap and Beck's on-air recommendations in 2009 propelled the book to number one in the government category on Amazon for several months.

Bytebear (talk) 19:33, 11 October 2009 (UTC)

unrelated-Fixed Utah stuff in article.Cptnono (talk) 05:30, 10 October 2009 (UTC)

Good job.↜ (‘Just M E ’here , now) 05:35, 10 October 2009 (UTC)

I want a pat on the head, dammit!Cptnono (talk) 05:42, 10 October 2009 (UTC)

 Done ;^) ↜ (‘Just M E ’here , now) 05:58, 10 October 2009 (UTC)

"History" --> "the Six Day War" (@ Skousen oeuvre)

The line sampling Skousen's oeuvre had originally been cribbed in whole from Zaitchik. I subsequently changed Christian child rearing to simply child rearing (although the former def is no doubt accurate, at least in the sense that Alcoholic Anonymous is a Christian addiction fellowship, which is what its beginnings were, as were Skousen's framework as an "LDS" (if we want to class that as Christian, but I digress.....)) -- and I added "history," too. But now I've changed the generic "history" to a more precise mention of the Six Day War, to give a more distinct flavor to this sampling. (BTW, Skousen was a typical American right winger in being extremely pro-Israel. (...As, witness Skousen patronee Orrin Hatch's devotion to its cause.))↜ (‘Just M E ’here , now) 14:45, 14 October 2009 (UTC)

Is this the Skousen article? I thought it was the Beck article. Bytebear (talk) 17:30, 14 October 2009 (UTC)

Armed security + wall around home ?

The right-leaning New York Post owned by Beck's boss at Fox News Rupert Murdoch is ---> reporting today (albeit in their pg 6 column) that "Glenn Beck is now traveling with an armed guard" ... "even to the men's room" at a Broadway show (I realize this sounds more like an satirical Onion headline). Now while I don't find this recent revelation particularly relevant nor newsworthy, when coupled with ---> past reports that he was applying for a special permit to place a six foot wall around his home (citing angry audiences) - it may be worthy of inclusion in reference to his "reception". Thoughts?   Redthoreau (talk)RT 03:27, 22 October 2009 (UTC)

Is this really noteworthy? Don't most high profile celebrities public figures have bodyguards? Bytebear (talk) 05:30, 22 October 2009 (UTC)

Public figure. I don't think it would serve any purpose but to scream at the reader that he is divisive.Cptnono (talk) 09:52, 22 October 2009 (UTC)

I think it's noteworthy. How does it make Glenn Beck look bad? All it does is illustrate how prudent he is, and how far people will go to shut someone up that they disagree with. I do think it's funny how the people that mock everyone else for a "lack of tolerance" are the same people making death threats to a man they don't agree with. (Well, not funny "ha-ha", but rather, funny "oh my God you're an f-ing idiot!".)
However, I think that if we are to include all that, we should put up a separate section labeled, "Death Threats," and add all the death threats he has gotten in the last few years. Joshua Ingram 21:45, 22 October 2009 (UTC)

Such as...
---------- Public Response ------------------

^“The old American mind-set that Richard Hofstadter famously called the paranoid style – the sense that Masons or the railroads or the Pope or the guys in black helicopters are in league to destroy the country – is aflame again, fanned from both right and left. [...] No one has a better feeling for this mood, and no one exploits it as well, as Beck. He is the hottest thing in the political-rant racket, left or right.^”

— David Von Drehle
(Time magazine, Sep. 17, 2009 cover story)

---

Reception-------------

Beck's shows have been described as a "mix of moral lessons, outrage and an apocalyptic view of the future ... capturing the feelings of an alienated class of Americans." One of Beck's Fox News Channel colleagues Shepard Smith, has jokingly called Beck's studio the "fear chamber", with Beck countering that he preferred the term "doom room."

Beck has referred to himself as an entertainer, a commentator rather than a reporter, a rodeo clown, and identified with Howard Beale "When he came out of the rain and he was like, none of this makes any sense. I am that guy." Time Magazine describes Beck as "[t]he new populist superstar of Fox News" saying it is easier to see a set of attitudes rather than a specific ideology, noting his criticism of Wall Street, yet defending bonuses to AIG, as well as denouncing conspiracies against FEMA but warning against indoctrination of children by the AmeriCorps program. What seems to unite Beck's disparate themes they note, is a sense of siege. Time further describes Beck as "a gifted storyteller with a knack for stitching seemingly unrelated data points into possible conspiracies", proclaiming that he has "emerged as a virtuoso on the strings" of Conservative's discontent ... mining the timeless theme of the corrupt Them thwarting a virtuous Us."
.......................................................................................................................Moving on................................................................................................................................

The controversies throughout 2009 garnered increasing attention and Beck was featured on the cover of the September 28 issue of Time magazine. The piece called him "the hottest thing in the political-rant racket" and reported that his television program had drawn upwards of 3 million viewers in recent days. He was also parodied in an impersonation by Jason Sudeikis on Saturday Night Live. The Daily Show's Jon Stewart quipped about Beck: "Finally, a guy who says what people who aren't thinking are thinking."

---

Death Threats------------

Beck started receiving death threats in 2007. A lot of the death threats came from Ron Paul supporters, as was stated by Beck on the December 18, 2007 episode of "Glenn Beck" on CNN. It was serious enough that he showed it directly to Ron Paul during a commercial break.

Something like that, only a lot more expanded. Joshua Ingram 22:13, 22 October 2009 (UTC)

It's simply not noteworthy. Does the Madonna article say that she has bodyguards? Does the Nancy Polosi article? Bytebear (talk) 04:35, 23 October 2009 (UTC)

The difference for Madonna and Pelosi is this: for Madonna, she has them because she's an egotistical narcissist. Same for Pelosi (although, her bodyguards are more prudent, as she is #3 for Presidential Succession-well, I've never figured out why she's number three. Isn't she technically #2, since she is second in line?) For Beck, he's a political commentator with death threats. That's a completely different thing. However, I don't think it's terribly important, so I won't put up a fight. Joshua Ingram 05:34, 23 October 2009 (UTC)

Removed Daily Mail

I removed the Daily Mail source as the paper is notorious for being loose with facts as all tabloids are. I'd as soon use the National Enquirer or (God forbid) the the Sun.

—Preceding unsigned comment added by Soxwon (talk • contribs) 03:38, 28 September 2009 (UTC)

Anything new here?

Louisville Courier-Journal↜ (‘Just M E ’here , now) 00:47, 21 October 2009 (UTC)

Several things:

• Salon says he was fired but that piece says he left (three times and there is a quote).
• "“I saw him as a well-polished guy for as young as he was,” Lincoln said. “It was a different type of show. I didn't think there were many other morning shows doing things like that.” - He was good for being young or something
• "Before he was an influential political commentator, Beck battled the likes of Terry Meiners, Ron Clay and Troy Roebuck for listeners on Louisville's radio airwaves. From 1985 to 1987, Beck worked at WRKA, where he already was demonstrating a knack for creating controversy." He made "borderline tasteless jokes" which "weren't uncommon on Louisville radio back then" - Beck started controversy with his competition. He poked fun of one girl's weight. He made tasteless jokes.
• "Lincoln said that when WRKA hired Beck, the station staff was abuzz. He was a young up-and-comer with a reputation that preceded him, and he lived up to the expectations. His ability to create characters — particularly Clydie Clyde, a voice he still uses today — and write elaborate skits was incomparable." - he was fresh and new or something
• he was not political.Cptnono (talk) 01:01, 21 October 2009 (UTC)

Salon.com v The Courier-Journal

Salon.com vs The Courier-Journal

"Beck left, abruptly, in the summer of 1987 amid a dispute with WRKA management. Months later, after he had landed a job in the much larger Phoenix market" [18] The article also asserts "he picked up and left town" (from a competitor) "and he left Louisville after barely two years"

or

"He was fired and the station brought its youth experiment to an end. As Beck and his wife packed their bags for Phoenix in early 1987"[19]Cptnono (talk) 01:12, 21 October 2009 (UTC)

A good practice when there are differences between equally reliable sources is to include both, or to cover the difference by leaving out the details. Something like "Beck either left or was fired in 1987..."   Will Beback  talk  03:24, 21 October 2009 (UTC)

Is Salon reliable? There have been concerns about this report but I don't know that much about the writer or website.Cptnono (talk) 05:39, 21 October 2009 (UTC)

"Left abruptly amid a dispute with management" sounds a lot like "fired". Does it really make much difference? Radio talk show hosts in smaller markets seem to move around a lot., usually because they didn't get the ratings the management wanted. It's not like getting fired from many other kinds of jobs, which can imply dereliction. I'd say try to avoid giving too much detail.   Will Beback  talk  07:28, 21 October 2009 (UTC)

It might make a huge difference in the eyes of some readers. "Left abruptly amid a dispute with management" is good and could imply both ways (but certainly is not a verified termination for cause) but fired is pretty strong. I am also concerned about the date. Dates have been a pain in the article and although it is trivial it should be right. Summer and early of whatever year are not the same. Just the year seems like a fine replacement to me.Cptnono (talk) 08:21, 21 October 2009 (UTC)

You need to err on the side of caution. You have three sources that say he left, one arguably biased source says he was fired. BLPs need to avoid anything that may result in libel charges. Claiming he was fired without definitive proof is simply unacceptable. Bytebear (talk) 18:54, 21 October 2009 (UTC)

Then again, there are those people who know that IT REALLY DOESN'T FREAKIN MATTER WHETHER OR NOT HE GOT FIRED IN 1987. He makes $27 million a year, and his quitting/firing in 1987 does not detract from his success. Joshua Ingram 19:08, 21 October 2009 (UTC)

The terms "left abruptly" and "fired" are used by the sources in a way that is directly contradictory. I would prefer to use The Courier-Journal since it has a reputation and a less biased and more reliable source. The Squicks (talk) 19:19, 21 October 2009 (UTC)

To some people being fired is a big deal. All of the bolding won't change that. There is also the principle of being factually accurate on a Wikipeida BLP. Please read the opening of Wikipedia:Biographies of living persons if you haven't had the chance. Cptnono (talk) 19:48, 21 October 2009 (UTC)

My bad, Cptnono, I should have phrased that differently. I was pointing out to whomever keeps pushing the retarded point that, "he may have been fired," in 1987, that it really doesn't make him look as bad as they might have thought. You were doing the right thing However, that guy is making a very poor libel attempt, and I was pointing out how pointless it was. Sorry, Cptnono. Joshua Ingram 20:39, 21 October 2009 (UTC)

I couldn't figure out why you were bolding it. It reminded me of me editing without having enough coffee!

Going with "left abruptly" works it looks like. Just to make it simple, we an use the year instead of early or summer. Small little changes that need t be done to keep us honest. Any concerns?Cptnono (talk) 20:45, 21 October 2009 (UTC)

Part II (kind of)

Salon makes a big to do about his mother's death being either an accident or a suicide and we have given it space. The Courier-Journal says that Beck says it was a suicide. Should this be mentioned?Cptnono (talk) 21:54, 24 October 2009 (UTC)

The Hartford Advocate & the H---- Courant w/re Beck's morning zoo stint there

Glenn put the Conn-servative into Connecticutt?

"Matt Feduzi, who did the news for that morning show [KC101's "morning zoo"], told the [Hartford] Advocate that he figured Beck's chances to make it to the big time were maybe 50-50: 'We used to say he's going to be either a cult leader or a failure.'" (link)

↜ (‘Just M E ’here , now) 08:37, 21 October 2009 (UTC)

Um... what? There's nothing in that source (that I see at first reading) that implies that Beck was a criminal or that his colleagues thought that he would be a criminal. The Squicks (talk) 19:20, 21 October 2009 (UTC)

Just ignore the "cute" quote! -- I am just pointing to the piece as a source of info about Beck during that part of his life.↜ (‘Just M E ’here , now) 22:35, 21 October 2009 (UTC)

I for one appreciate the heads up on new and relevant sources. We have two excellent sources now that will prevent the potential scourge of RECENTISM. Now where to start?Cptnono (talk) 01:31, 22 October 2009 (UTC)

Follow-up: Is it a good source though? The first line is hilarious! I assume we can use the less flamboyant aspects.Cptnono (talk) 01:33, 22 October 2009 (UTC)

• The Hartford Courant has a quick piece now, too.

  "'My bad memories of Connecticut stem around me being a bad guy. But I also have fond memories because it's the place where at least I started to turn my life around. I found my wife, I married her and we live there now.'"

  ↜ (‘Just M E ’here , now) 12:58, 22 October 2009 (UTC)

Beckian tidbits becoming iconic

1. The "red phone" bit(?)
2. Portraiture from out of photographer Jill Greenberg's shoot of Beck for GQ -- used ubiquitously since (including for Time) -- & not to mention this behind the scenes clip↜ (‘Just M E ’here , now) 04:35, 15 October 2009 (UTC)

The red phone is an icon of the Cold War. Can you prove that the words "red phone" automatically remind people of Glenn Beck, and not the Cold War? Novalord2 04:40, 16 October 2009 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Novalord2 (talk • contribs)

No one needs to prove a thing. if the sources comment on it we can use that.Cptnono (talk)

What sources? Grsz¹¹ 05:38, 16 October 2009 (UTC)

Ask the editor proposing it or see if you can find them. Maybe that is what you meant but it initially came across like it was about to start another long debate when a source would be the best first step.Cptnono (talk) 05:52, 16 October 2009 (UTC)

Beck's "war" against O & the White House and/or vice versa is white hot, media-wise, with Beck's "red phone" bit cited in the sources as an instant classic. (My phrase, not theirs; come to think of it though, its very apropos of 50s McCarthyism, huh!...well, plus 60s Kennedy-Kruschev nuclear brinksmanship. Anyway, links on current skirmish(/es?) classed together today by Google are here(?) --> click↜ (‘Just M E ’here , now) 15:21, 16 October 2009 (UTC)

• Per WP:PRESERVE, I'm moving this:

  On October 15, 2009, Glenn Beck, who has frequently critisized Dunn's attacks on the Fox News Channel as allegedly being part of a left-wing smear campaign and has even set up a telephone line that is directly connected to the White House so that Dunn can correct any of his "lies" ("Video clip explaining Glenn Beck's hotline to the White House")

  -- that a wikicontributor had tried to add to the Anita Dunn BLP, here to this talkpage.↜ (‘Just M E ’here , now) 13:58, 17 October 2009 (UTC)

Video clips do not qualify as a reliable third party source. This is trivia and original research. It doesn't belong in the article. Preservation does not apply to non-noteworthy trivia. Bytebear (talk) 17:07, 17 October 2009 (UTC)

The link above (labeled "click" a couple posts up) provides proof of ample notability for Beck's "red phone" satire [Edited: My bad.] (BTW, PRESERVE sez (a) tag a notable contribution for better sourcing or (b) provide it oneself or (c) mv it to a better pg or (d) take it to talk somewhere, presumably if its provided sourcing is waay weak -- which is why, incidentally, I had picked choice d.!)↜ (‘Just M E ’here , now) 21:37, 17 October 2009 (UTC)

1. Fox News coverage of Fox-WH controversy, highlighting red phone satire ("Media Brawl" 17Oct)
2. Mediaite "[...B]eetween the red phone on set, the grip whose job it is to sit beside it in case the White House calls, the chalkboard, and Beck’s impressions, his opener this evening may have been the best 20 minutes of television you’ll see all day." (link)↜ (‘Just M E ’here , now) 19:00, 20 October 2009 (UTC)
3. The AP: "Beck placed a red phone on his desk, saying it was a hot line available to Dunn anytime she thought something untrue about Obama was being said on his show." ("Picking a fight: Obama vs Fox News" 18Oct)
4. The NYT's Kate Phillips: "Late last week, Fox News had a bit of fun with the mini-battle between Ms. Dunn and Mr. Beck, laughing about Mr. Beck’s installing a 'red phone' to get the chief communicator to call him."   &   "(...W)ill he (Gibbs) call Mr. Beck’s red batphone?"↜ (‘Just M E ’here , now) 22:54, 18 October 2009 (UTC)↜ (‘Just M E ’here , now) 17:59, 20 October 2009 (UTC)
5. The Public Broadcasting System's News Hour with Jim Lehrer:

   This week, Beck referred to Dunn as "a woman who is trying to crush freedom of speech" and mockingly said he had installed a red phone to take her call any time.

   GLENN BECK: We used to have a red phone at the White House where, if Russia did something, you know, they could pick it up, and the president could say: "What are you doing? We're going to bomb you." And then they would talk things out.   ¶   Well, we have installed this telephone, the only people that have it, the people now in Anita Dunn's office in the White House.

   (link)↜ (‘Just M E ’here , now) 18:08, 20 October 2009 (UTC)
6. Sydney Morning Herald

   "Last week on his show, Beck placed a red phone on his desk, saying it was a hotline available to Dunn any time she thought something untrue about Obama was being said on his show." (link)

   ↜ (‘Just M E ’here , now) 07:06, 23 October 2009 (UTC)
7. LATimes "Glenn Beck, the network's newest star, gleefully unveiled a red telephone on his set, saying it was a special line for the White House to use to correct any mistakes he makes." (link)↜ (‘Just M E ’here , now) 00:02, 27 October 2009 (UTC)

The red phone will probably be forgotten pretty soon. The sources don't seem to indicate that the red phone was wildly popular or significant to his persona. I agree that it is trivial and un-noteworthy. Novalord2 ([[User talk:Novalord2|talk] —Preceding undated comment added 03:42, 19 October 2009 (UTC).

Well, Novalord2, do you have any opinion, then, as to whether the controversy w/re to "Fox News's slanting 'vee es' the White House's media strategizing" might be notable enough for Wikicoverage?↜ (‘Just M E ’here , now) 04:23, 19 October 2009 (UTC)

Yawn. Media yapping mouth concocts stunt of the week to keep up ratings and maintain ad revenue. So what? He's got to come up with material daily. If its' still being covered regularly in a month as more than another example of his 'wacky' behavior, if she actually calls and uses his 'hotline', then it might be notable. Mostly it's the weekly media stunt. He's learning from Stephen Colbert, more than anything. ThuranX (talk) 05:18, 19 October 2009 (UTC)

Folks' pontifications are interesting but sourcing is what's definitive. It appears, per our editing directives at "Wikipedia:RECENTISM," that the job of Wikicontributors, as a first step, is our composing accurate and balanced treatments of incidents of much public note, to eventually be refined into more nuanced presentations later.

Recentism in the first sense—established articles that are bloated with event-specific facts at the expense of longstanding content—is usually considered one of Wikipedia's faults. But in many cases, the recentist content can be a valuable preliminary stage in gathering information. Any encyclopedia, even Britannica, goes through rough drafts; new Wikipedia articles are published while in draft and developed/improved in real time, so rapidly developing drafts may appear to be a clutter of news links and half-developed thoughts. Later, as the big picture emerges, the least relevant content ought to be and often is eliminated.---WP:RECENTISM

↜ (‘Just M E ’here , now) 08:38, 19 October 2009 (UTC)

"Lunatic fringe" term

I do not believe the line "leading the lunatic fringe" is sufficient to use the hyperactive term in that manner in this article. A writer for Time something something lunatic fringe might work but this is a BLP and there is not a preponderance of evidence or sources equating him to being the leader of a leaderless group. I also believe the editor should be ashamed of himself for including such information in BLP without considering the caution that is necessary. Juicey sources do not equal good sources.Cptnono (talk) 22:40, 22 October 2009 (UTC)

You revert my edit saying it is vandalism, then you come here and post several more completely different reasons. You should be ashamed of yourself for accusing me of vandalism. Reliefappearance (talk) 22:48, 22 October 2009 (UTC)

I assumed you were a vandal. When you reverted I realized you were simply editing in a grossly inappropriate manner. Bother are bad and you need to check up on Wikipedia:Biographies of living persons before attempting to contribute to this project further.Cptnono (talk) 22:51, 22 October 2009 (UTC)

That's funny because your addition to my talk page states quite a different story. Reliefappearance (talk) 03:56, 23 October 2009 (UTC)

Twice now my edit has been reverted. Am I surprised? Absolutely not.

Lunatic fringe is a real term. Beck is described as being part of the lunatic fringe in an RS. So, in good faith, I added the term to describe Beck. This is not vandalism. Reliefappearance (talk) 22:44, 22 October 2009 (UTC)

I admit I too hastily credited your edit to vandalism, however, to proclaim Beck the "leader" of a lunatic fringe indicates he is the intentional leader of such and has accepted responsibility of the same. This is clearly not the case. SkagitRiverQueen (talk) 22:51, 22 October 2009 (UTC)

"In good faith?" Are you kidding? You must be, because no one would label anyone the pejorative adjective, "The Leader of the Lunatic Fringe," in good faith. Go find some other "good faith" idiots to cry to, and stop the BS. And while you're there, look up the term, "good faith." Joshua Ingram 23:18, 22 October 2009 (UTC)

Are you trying to tell me that my edit was vandalism? If so, you must be kidding. I admit that there may be a valid reason or two to remove my addition, and per WP:BOLD there's no reason I shouldn't make edits I feel that I should make, but my edit was in no way vandalism. You seem to be extremely worked up over this. Considering you just called me an idiot and a bullshitter, I suggest you take a cool down. Sleep on it my friend. Reliefappearance (talk) 03:54, 23 October 2009 (UTC)

Vandalism? Perhaps, but definitely way POV and inappropriate. Bytebear (talk) 04:39, 23 October 2009 (UTC)

The dogpiling and personal attacks in this section are ridiculous. If ReliefAppearance took this mess to AN/I, I have little doubt that there woudl be justifiable blocks handed out against all of you. You're assaulting good faith editors in your zeal to protect your idol, to the detriment of both the article and the tone of the talk page. ThuranX (talk) 04:55, 23 October 2009 (UTC)

Funny, you grandstand on good faith amuses me for its irony. Bytebear (talk) 04:59, 23 October 2009 (UTC)

You must be missing words or letters, because I cannot parse your comment for any meaning. Yes, seriously. I think you left out a word or two. ThuranX (talk) 05:10, 23 October 2009 (UTC)

ThuranX, you go right ahead and take it to someone. If they decide to dole out blocks, I will take mine quietly and apologize profusely as soon as I get back. However, if you took it to someone, they would probably point out to you the ludicrious claim that this edit was made in good faith with no POV behind it. That's horse****, and you know it. Now, I'm not convinced that he is aware of how NOT good faith it was, because that editor seemed honestly surprised that it was not considered good faith.
Maybe, reliefappearance, you should look up the definition of good faith. If you honestly believe that Beck is the leader of the lunatic fringe, then you should probably look into his stances and beliefs (not people's interpretation of his words, ALL of HIS ACTUAL WORDS), then make a decision. Based solely on your talk page and history, you might want to take it easy on being bold until you have all the facts. Joshua Ingram 05:15, 23 October 2009 (UTC)

Amazing how little people can read. CptNono tried to work with Relief, suggesting the use of the 'Time magazine says...' approach, but was brusque and unclear in his suggestion. However, afte that, it became a dogpile on the editor., I say, stop dogpiling. The obvious hostility displayed by those like 'JoshuaIngram' is really ridiculous. On no, someone on the internet is "wrong". Go nuts, and good luck with the aneurysm. Either help the editor work on the material, or keep your fingers on the desk. What I see above is sa lot of attacks on him because you assume he hates Beck, instead of that he wants to include Time Magazine's assessment, which is, by any reasonable standard, a Gooed Faith edit to make, whether or not the ultimate consensus is for or against inclusion. ThuranX (talk) 05:38, 23 October 2009 (UTC)

So one man's opinion is proof enough to make it into the lede of a BLP, and not at least be labeled as a single man's opinion? You know what?
Reliefappearance, if you really meant it in good faith, then I apologize for "dogpiling" on you. I am used to dealing with people like ThuranX, and made the assumption that you were a jerk with a "persecute Glenn Beck" complex. You have my apology.
ThuranX, you might want to be careful with your words. If there was one or two more people saying what you just said about me, then that would meet your definition of "dogpiling." And that's called HYPOCRISY. And if I can't read, at least I can spell. Joshua Ingram 05:50, 23 October 2009 (UTC)

I Looove Joel Stein but his use of a term such as "lunatic" is really more akin to Jon Stewart's or Mr. Beck's use of such hyperbole than it would be akin to a Time news piece's asserting that description, without attribution (or if a very rare Time official editorial were to do so.......IAC, everybody knows the brilliant Stein's generally-quite-ideosyncratic opinion columns, laced as they are with humor, ain't exactly straight news features!)↜ (‘Just M E ’here , now) 06:10, 23 October 2009 (UTC)

is Beck part of the lunatic fringe?

Despite the above discussion, I contend that Beck IS part of Roosevelt's Lunatic Fringe. Obviously there needs to be better sourcing to include it in the article, but I believe the opponents above feel that the statement is false or something, and that is why they tried to accuse me of vandalism, because of they are not looking at this from a neutral point of view. "Lunatic Fringe" is a term that describes, to put it simply, lunatics that offer fringe political views. IE: NOT MAINSTREAM. Honestly, it is clear I will have to drop this, but not without having made my point. Thank you and goodnight and don't bother posting the usual ban threats on my talk page. Reliefappearance (talk) 04:01, 23 October 2009 (UTC)

The guy is one of the most popular talk show hosts in the country, with over 3 million viewers a day (destroying the other networks in this time slot). He's is a multiple #1 NYT bestselling author. How is that the Lunatic Fringe? Who would have thought that promoting the values of the founding fathers would now label you part of the lunatic fringe... Morphh ^(talk) 4:30, 23 October 2009 (UTC)

The founding fathers were fiercely partisan. Beck just picks and chooses things they said or wrote that he agrees with and then rants about it on his show. Nice try. Reliefappearance (talk) 13:18, 30 October 2009 (UTC)

Being partisan is one thing, being a lunatic on the fringe is another. Also, I was being eccentric with the last sentence, sorry if that wasn't clear. Morphh ^(talk) 13:34, 30 October 2009 (UTC)

Is there any decent third party reliable source on this opinion? And make no mistake, this is an opinion, but is is a noteworthy one? Does this assertion come from anyone who is not critical of Beck? In other words, is this criticism only coming from (ironically) the left-wing lunatic fringe? Bytebear (talk) 04:41, 23 October 2009 (UTC)

For the record, Morphh, your long held contention that you are truly neutral and working solely to improve the article is betrayed by your assertion that Beck is "promoting the values of the founding fathers", an idea debately centrally in almost all critical assessments of the man. Thank you for making your biases clear, so that awe can all work on a neutral article more clearly in the future. ThuranX (talk) 04:47, 23 October 2009 (UTC)

• Have you ever read or listened to Beck without the filter of the HuffPost or MMfA or MoveOn.org? Obviously not, because if you had, then you would know that almost every other sentence has the words, "Founding Fathers," in it. While I don't personally pretend that I am not an unapologetic Beck fan, I do try to take a neutral stance when editing the article, and it is possible to be a fan and not be blind to a person's faults, and certainly not want to hide them. Joshua Ingram 04:57, 23 October 2009 (UTC)

Just because you don't agree with him, does not make him lunatic or part of any "fringe." So, absolutely not. Joshua Ingram 04:49, 23 October 2009 (UTC)

I think you can be a [Edited: self-described] "founders lover" and still be considered fringy. Witness our friend -- not Van Jones, but, Alex Jones! Whereas it is A. Jones who coined the phrase popular among some teaparty goers, "The Answer to 1984 is 1776," WP's lede of A. Jones's BLP cites Michelle Goldberg as saying in The New Republic w/r to Jones (who is a self-described "aggressive constitutionalist" and paleoconservative libertarian) that Jones represents, we quote, an old strain of American conservatism--isolationist, anti-Wall Street, paranoid about elite conspiracies--that last flowered during the John Birch Society’s heyday. (Here is a profile on Jones.)↜ (‘Just M E ’here , now) 05:03, 23 October 2009 (UTC)

Just because he uses a phrase often, doesn't make it true. ThuranX (talk) 05:10, 23 October 2009 (UTC)

Yes, ThuranX -- that goes without saying!↜ (‘Just M E ’here , now) 05:18, 23 October 2009 (UTC)

You're absolutely right. However, when the beliefs you claim to espouse are the same as the Founding Father's views, it tends to lend more credit to your claim. Joshua Ingram 05:20, 23 October 2009 (UTC)

You seem to have confused Wikipedia's talk page with a WP:FORUM setting. You are quite blatantly letting your personal agreements with Beck's interpretations of the Founding Fathers color your entire attitude towards this situation, and indubitably, any other related to this topic. I suggest, quite sincerely, you consider editing in other areas, where your personal feelings inhibit your ability to deal with things objectively. A simple google search shows numerous disagreements with his interpretations, and we have an RS describing him as a leader of the lunatic fringe. This discussion, thus, should focus far more on criticisms of his opinions re: the founding fathers, and on the reliability of Time Magazine as a source for Wikipedia, and the weight of their comments regarding Beck. Instead, you've clearly made this an 'us vs. them' fight, which helps nobody. ThuranX (talk) 05:44, 23 October 2009 (UTC)

And you aren't? I don't hide the fact that I am a Beck fan, but I don't use it one way or the other when I edit the page. You are the one that is trying to paint me in a bad light, thereby using this place as a forum for general discussion. You, sir, are a HYPOCRITE. And I'll take my bias and go away as soon as you do. Joshua Ingram 05:54, 23 October 2009 (UTC)

No, I've sought to include material which both flatters, and does not flatter, Beck, so long as it is reliably sourced. I've often argued for more unflattering criticism of the man, because this article definitely seems to lack a balanced coverage. That said, I'll take your offer. I'm unwatching this page after this post. I'm sure the page will benefit more from your absence than my presence, and there are other places on this project I can spend my time. ThuranX (talk) 06:03, 23 October 2009 (UTC)

Um, both sides of this argument are getting a bit too heated and clouded. Please, take a quick breather, and approach this again from the outside. (The "views of the Founding Fathers" and whether editors agree with Beck or not has absolutely no bearing on this article.)

It might be significant that a major periodical like Time referred to Beck as "leading the lunatic fringe." However, under no circumstances should it be stated as an assertion as Reliefappearance did; it should be attributed as one significant viewpoint of several, if it warrants inclusion at all. Personally, I don't think it would add anything that the mention of "polarizing... controversial views" in the lead and the further details in the "Public reception" section already cover. Fran Rogers (talk) 05:13, 23 October 2009 (UTC)

Whether Beck is part of the "lunatic fringe" is not for us here as editors to decide. I would add as well that such a hyperbolic description (i.e. "lunatic") would not be acceptable for the lead.   Redthoreau (talk)RT 05:19, 23 October 2009 (UTC)

Agreed. And it certainly isn't something that should be put in unilaterally, without any warning on the talk page, by a person that is editing the page for the first time. Joshua Ingram 05:21, 23 October 2009 (UTC)

ThuranX, since you took a bit to attack my motives, I figured I would respond. I was being as eccentric. It was a contrast to the views he often challenges like Mao, Chavez, and Marx - views held by those which Beck calls radicals in America. Most U.S. politicians promote the views of the founders, it's not overly bias toward Glenn Beck, perhaps communism. These views are not uncommon in America and not part of a lunatic fringe. In any case, we all have bias in one way or another, the goal is that we all work together to build the article and make sure content reflects Wikipedia policies. Liking Beck or disliking Beck is irrelevant when properly followed. Morphh ^(talk) 11:14, 23 October 2009 (UTC)

Whether or not Beck is x,y,z is absolutely not for editors to decide. It's a matter of reliable sources to decide. I've gone through similar fights on the pages for Geert Wilders and Avigdor Lieberman (both of which are so far right that they make the likes of Beck look like Jerry Garcia), and it seems to be a clear convention that hyperbolic criticism does not belong in the lead. The lead can state neutral facts about a person- including that he or she is controversial- but it can't prejudice the reader in certain ways. The Squicks (talk) 04:38, 25 October 2009 (UTC)

Agreed, and the utility to use such hyperbolic language without attribution is limited at best... so case closed? --kizzle (talk) 07:05, 25 October 2009 (UTC)