Talk:Glenn Beck/Archive 12

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Article part 2

Wow, where to start, I never engendered such a scintillating discussion before. As I know very little about Mr. Beck, any and all discussion is welcomed and I feel almost all of the above is very productive. Note to Cptnono: if I were a bulldozer, I would not have stopped in the middle of the article but would have continued to rv the excess verbiage. I am not offended, there can be a fine line between Bold and Beautiful, ooops, I mean Bulldozer!  :-D and your comments were very perceptive, ty. I really appreciate the welcome to my "fresh eyes". So let's wing it.

• First, I did not mean any section should Be a separate article, I was remarking that too many sections are long enough to Be articles, (although that may be a consideration down the line.)
• AerobicFox, I appreciate your passion, but in checking several other articles, a simple listing of the author's books is sufficient, we are not a bibliography, again, e.g. see Bill O'Reilly's article.
• I did not highlight "undue weight" because I was not meaning the Wiki definition, the whole article is overweight/obese! Poetic license...DocOfSoc (talk) 10:23, 2 January 2011 (UTC)
• In carefully rereading the article and comparing it to [1], there are some copyright violations, sentences lifted wholly from that article and copied and pasted here. Those can be summarily deleted without discussion if not totally rewritten. Our copyright committee is very skilled at that.
• "BLPs should be written responsibly, cautiously, and in a dispassionate tone, avoiding both understatement and overstatement." There is also too much disproportionate space devoted to far too many viewpoints, and are overly promotional in tone as per BLP.
• If I have deleted anything someone deems vital, this is the place to discuss it.

Gsbus8 thank you for your comment, I agree it is worth including. Beck's views on gay marriage would need to be sourced, but my suggestion is let's get this article significantly pruned before adding new topics. Comments? I am attempting to cover all your remarks above, if I miss anything I am sure you will iterate ;-) Someone who doesn't give a "crap about the political process" will probably not fit into any party designations. No use beating that "dead horse." There is at least one item in which there is contradiction, that of his non-existent secondary education. I am getting the distinct impression, that Mr. Beck will say whatever suits the occasion and may be taking some liberties with the truth. Comments? Beck's income and all its sources may be interesting but adds nothing to the article. Do we need to know more than he made $32 million last year? Although he may be notable as a commentator, he calls himself an entertainer, which gives him far more latitude in his comments. I think it is worth keeping that in mind when we are editing. Looking forward to tomorrow. Namaste...DocOfSoc (talk) 11:24, 2 January 2011 (UTC) Made a few edits. Categories with their own page only need one sentence. DocOfSoc (talk) 14:12, 2 January 2011 (UTC)

user box was full of extraneous info that is not standardDocOfSoc (talk) 13:46, 2 January 2011 (UTC)

If you have deleted anything someone sees as vital then maybe you need to think about that before deleting it. It is easy to assume what some people will see as contentious so open it up for discussion before deleting it. And money made is OK. It is often discussed in the media for not only Beck, but others who bring in signifigant sums. There is even s parameter in infoboxes for business people.Cptnono (talk) 19:08, 2 January 2011 (UTC)

Points to Ponder

I have never seen a Header like "Public reception". If I were a bulldozer ;-) I would zap it, after moving a sentence or two. The rest seems fan-like and frivolous, rather self-serving. "Public disputes" needs clean up, a couple categories are superfluous; the rest could be put in one paragraph. His every "live appearance does not need to be described in detail, pruning suggested. HB Secret Garden, I like your ideas, added a few more bullet points. More tonight. DocOfSoc (talk) 14:12, 2 January 2011 (UTC)

Never heard of it? I have seen them around. Anyways, something like "criticism" has some POV and is frowned upon so integrating both criticism and support into a single section with a neuteral header is the way to go. And "reception" for such a public figure is more than appropriate.Cptnono (talk) 19:02, 2 January 2011 (UTC)

I like your idea of combining for balance. Does anyone else want to tackle the copyright issue? I did, a bit. Would you find me an example of "reception" for comparison, I had no luck. In "disputes", we have outdated items that suffer from "they were important at the time, but not for history". That's covered here: "established articles that are bloated with event-specific facts at the expense of longstanding content—is considered a Wikipedia fault." it's the backlog of "Recentism" [2]. Input please :-D "cya" later! DocOfSoc (talk) 05:54, 3 January 2011 (UTC)

Bulldoze away. AerobicFox (talk) 06:01, 3 January 2011 (UTC)

Yeah, smash! Copyright issues just need to go or the paraphrase needs to be done better. As long as it isn't a link to infringement I am less worried. I am not going to find you a comparison for the section header right now because I am lazy and it is completely ridiculous to think it is not throughout Wikipedia. If you really cannot find it let me know and I will find examples but I would prefer not to do 5 minutes of leg work (with links) when it can be seen in 1 with honest looking. Even typing that out seems silly when it is obviously there. Yes, I assume there are recentism issues. Start listing them and killing them. However, we do need to watch out because the recentism issues might have stemmed from issues that were never important in the first place but required extra lines to explain them to provide the full context of a news story that was titillating but lame in the grand scheme of things. Cptnono (talk) 09:03, 3 January 2011 (UTC)

Doc, I believe you sincere and find your self-confidence inspiring. Still, there's a tiny learning curve editing Wikipedia and it's us your fellow editors' job is to help, sharing what we've learned from experience. With this in mind, let me just say that the reason that the word reception is used every once in awhile in Wiki articles is 'cause people are trying to be NPOV and be sure to imply that both positive and negative criticism is going to be discussed/included. Be that as it may, the word criticism can mean either kind so that word works just as well. (I sorta like perception: eg see Public_image_of_George_W._Bush#Domestic_perception_of_Bush.) IAC, if you have some kind of allergy to reception, just substitute criticism or some other word and be done with it--or figure out some other way around your dislike for that word. There are any number of additional ways to suggest cultural resonances/reactions/image/etc., or one can even choose not to amass a distinct section for these type of things but instead opt to leave them scattered throughout the article.

And please also trust that I am sincerely trying to be helpful and not insulting in sharing the basic technique of using Wiki's search function, as follows: There is this bubble thing on the upper right of a Wiki page, yknow? OK, just type in a word for an article subsection you're looking for--in this case, that is: "reception" but don't hit return; instead look below the bubble, where you'll see the words "containing... reception ." You move the cursor down to those words and click Return then scroll down the page to----

-The_Secret_Garden#Public_reception
-The_Larry_Sanders_Show#Reception
-Lopez_Tonight#Critical_reception
-The_Colbert_Report#Reception
-Barbara_Boxer#Public_image.2C_political_reception_and_controversy
-Geert_Wilders#Public_reception
-MTV_Latin_America#Public_Reception
-Julian_Assange&diff=prev&oldid=405677083#Public_reception
-Robert_Thurman#Public_reception
-Emi_Suzuki#Public_reception
-Erin_Cummings#Public_reception
-Philip_Carl_Salzman#Public_reception
-Yas#Public_reception
-Magibon#Public_reception
-Shauna_Burns#Public_Reception
-John_Brownlee_sex_scandal#Media_and_public_reception
-Thomas_Burke_(author)#Reception
-Jennifer_Hawkins#Reception
-Evelyn_Waugh#Reception
-Christopher_Nolan#Critical_reception
-Søren_Kierkegaard#Reception
-etc.

--Hodgson-Burnett's Secret Garden (talk) 19:47, 3 January 2011 (UTC)

For example, in point of fact, WP's blp for the political commentator, accasional broadcast political pundit and consummate political blogger Andrew Sullivan's only separate section for Reactions is called

-Andrew_Sullivan#Controversies.

As for media personality and media mogul Oprah Winfrey, her blp has a section called

-Oprah_Winfrey#Influence.

--Hodgson-Burnett's Secret Garden (talk) 21:12, 3 January 2011 (UTC)

-Public_image_of_Sarah_Palin#Perceptions_of_Palin.27s_political_style
-Bill_O'Reilly_(political_commentator)#Political_views_and_public_perception
-Matt_Drudge#Comments_by_journalists
-Alan_Colmes#Criticism
-Ann_Coulter#Controversies_and_criticism
-Chris_Matthews#Criticisms_and_controversy
-Michael_Savage_(commentator)#Awards.2C_criticisms.2C_and_controversies

-Oliver_North#Political_and_historical_legacy
-Ed_Schultz#Evolution_of_political_views
-Nate_Silver#Recognition_and_awards
-James_Carville#Quotations

--Hodgson-Burnett's Secret Garden (talk) 21:45, 3 January 2011 (UTC)

No matter how long you are on Wikipedia, there is always a learning curve. I appreciate the time you guys have taken to further educate me. When you stop learning you are dead. I am unfamiliar with the "Bubble" you are referring to, just the search box (But I did learn what an Immaculate Reception was, Thank you! LOL) I am not the least bit insulted. Hodg if in your judgement, you want to move the websites NP. I had seen them at the bottom in other articles but have no strong feeling about it. I do have strong feelings that Oprah took over my fav health channel, but I digress. On "reception" I have mixed feelings, but that could be is one of the things I do for a living is weddings LOL. "Reactions" is ok, Cpt or Hodg, use your best judgment. Still mystified about the "Bubble. Namaste...DocOfSoc (talk) 03:43, 4 January 2011 (UTC)"

Internet offerings

The Net section mentioning Mercury Radio Arts' GlennBeck.com and TheBlaze.com websites was moved to the bottom of the page. Is there a reasonable rationale to mark some kind of clean separation/dichotomy between Beck's personal and corporate oeuvres? If not, shouldn't it join the sections for his books, etc., in the section currently arranged around Beck's "career"? Of course like many complicated media empires, in Beck's such things as, say, his books are "team written"--he speaks them in meetings and also calls at odd hours with his ideas and his collaborators commit them to paper--as is accomplished the creation of the scripts/outlines for his one-man stage performances or his broadcast shows, so it isn't always easy to know what parts of "Glenn Beck" are his own utlimate contributions and what parts were contributed by the various folks he has selected to collaborate with him on whatever project. And, for example, the blp for Oprah Winfrey has one section for her eponymous show, under the heading of "Television," and has another section that groups together subsections that cover her various other media enterprises: for "Film," "Publishing and writing," "Online," and "Radio." (Btw, here's the entire subsection in the Oprah blp about her radio channel):

"On February 9, 2006, it was announced that Winfrey had signed a three-year, $55 million contract with XM Satellite Radio to establish a new radio channel. The channel, Oprah Radio, features popular contributors to The Oprah Winfrey Show and O, The Oprah Magazine including Nate Berkus, Dr. Mehmet Oz, Bob Greene, Dr. Robin Smith and Marianne Williamson. Oprah & Friends began broadcasting at 11:00 am ET, September 25, 2006, from a new studio at Winfrey's Chicago headquarters. The channel broadcasts 24 hours a day, seven days a week on XM Radio Channel 156. Winfrey's contract requires her to be on the air thirty minutes a week, 39 weeks a year. The thirty-minute weekly show features Winfrey with friend Gayle King."

--Hodgson-Burnett's Secret Garden (talk) 06:45, 3 January 2011 (UTC)

Beck's view on Muslims

Does anyone have any other lines to suggest to go into a new paragraph in the Viewpoints section? If he has said enough things then it should be easy to craft a paragraph that summarizes his views.Cptnono (talk) 03:16, 14 December 2010 (UTC)

Believes number of muslims who are terrorist is close to 10%: http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/2010/12/13/2010-12-13_glenn_beck_claims_10_of_muslims_are_terrorists_cnns_fareed_zakaria_blasts_him_fo.html

http://religion.blogs.cnn.com/2010/12/12/fareed-zakaria-glenn-beck-wrong-about-10-percent-muslims-being-terrorists/

This isn't the first time he said this. In 2003 in a book he said:90 percent of Islam is peaceful, while 10 percent of Islam "wants us dead."

http://www.sify.com/news/glenn-beck-s-10-per-cent-of-muslims-in-world-are-terrorists-claims-are-total-nonsense-news-international-kmoqknbghhb.html Deliciousgrapefruit (talk) 14:03, 14 December 2010 (UTC)

Someone needs to teach Mr. Beck about demographics and simple ratios... Soxwon (talk) 19:08, 14 December 2010 (UTC)

Do we have anymore sources not related to the ratios? I am under the impression that he is not a fan of Islam (or at least certain elements) and that deserves some place in the article. The ratio thing is only a small portion of everything he has said about terrorism.Cptnono (talk) 21:58, 14 December 2010 (UTC)

We are not denying Beck or anyone else their First Amendment rights. He can say anything he wants. But advertisers don't have to support his brand of hate mongering, and audiences don't have to take Fox News seriously if one of its top names has become a "circus clown."

Actually, Beck is worse than a clown. He's more like a terrorist who believes he has discovered the One True Faith, and condemns everyone else as a heretic. And that makes him something else as well--a traitor to the American values he professes so loudly to defend.

—Cokie & Steve Roberts -->link

--Hodgson-Burnett's Secret Garden (talk) 22:20, 14 December 2010 (UTC)

What does that have to do with the conversation?Cptnono (talk) 22:29, 14 December 2010 (UTC)

I agree with Jon Stewart that it isn't helpful to term W. Bush a fascist or to call Barack Obama a Communist. I also think it isn't helpful to say that 10% of a particular religious group are terrorists. Such a way of speaking is over the top, IMO. (Just as Cokie and her husband terming Beck a terrorist isn't particularly helpful, IMO. Albeit, in light of his rhetoric, sort of an interesting counterthrust....) In any case, I ALSO happen to be of the opinion that if Beck's rhetoric is to be included in this article, it ought to be given within its full context (as follows):

Okey dokey—here are the facts. All of this is according to a scientific poll of people in Muslim nations done by the respected group World Public Opinion. Support for attacking civilians who just happen to work in Islamic countries range from 6%-30%.

The lowest amount of support in the polled nations is in Azerbaijan where ONLY 4% of people approve of violence against civilians on our territory, with another 10% having “mixed feelings” about it. That number rises to 9% approval in Pakistan, with another 15% having “mixed feelings”. Do you want me to mention the Palestinian territories? Do you? 24% approval, 15% mixed feelings.

To put it another way—someone in the Palestinian territories who is open to violence on civilians in the United States is about as easy to find as an American citizen who approves of the job performance of President Obama.

But these numbers, ranging from 10% to 39%, are just the beginning.

Specific support for Al Qaeda’s attacks on civilians range from “only” 9% in Morocco to 21% in Egypt.

Specific support for Osama Bin Laden? That ranges from 4% in Azerbaijan to 56% in the Palestinian territories. Include those who have mixed feelings towards the largest terrorist in American history—and you get a range of 10%-78%.

Let’s remove the Al Qaeda brand name, and look for support for groups in general that attack Americans. Support ranges from 25%-30%.

If you think killing troops that just happened to be stationed in the Gulf is terrorism—then it gets much, much worse. Support for violence ranges from 13% in Azerbaijan to a ridiculous 78% in Egypt and 87% in the Palestinian territories. That doesn’t include those who have mixed feelings about killing troops.

“Alright, now that we have the facts…let me articulate the left's last ditch argument:

“But those are only people who advocate terrorism! Not people who are terrorists!!”

First, allow me to point out that your argument has now boiled down to:

“Glenn Beck lied! He said that 10% of Muslims want to kill innocent civilians when the truth is that 10% of Muslims SUPPORT killing innocent civilians!”

Secondly, even that point is wrong. Read the definition of terrorist again:

a person, usually a member of a group, who uses or advocates terrorism.

“But, that’s not what Glenn meant! You’re only saying that to cover after the fact!”

Am I? Here is the 10% statistic as laid out in 2003, in Glenn’s first New York Times bestselling book The Real America.” (Emphasis mine.)

–Ninety percent of Islam is peaceful.
–Ten percent of Islam wants us dead.
–That ten percent of the faith is composed of extreme radicals who have taken Islam through a time tunnel and twisted it into something that is ugly and barbaric.

What is truly amazing is how completely shocking this is to most of the media. This is very basic information about the war on terror. Anyone who has ever covered a terrorism story should be intimately acquainted with these polls.

— Stu Burguiere (Producer, The Glenn Beck Progam)

--Hodgson-Burnett's Secret Garden (talk) 22:47, 14 December 2010 (UTC)

Again, is there anything not related to this recent story? Also, his producer is no him.Cptnono (talk) 22:56, 14 December 2010 (UTC)

The "10%" quote if from a three-way radio show conversation involving Beck, Gray, and Burguiere. Then, Burguiere posted the above blogpost and Beck went over it point by point with Burguire on his next radio show (link).--Hodgson-Burnett's Secret Garden (talk) 23:01, 14 December 2010 (UTC)

Oh, didn't realize. That's cool. Now do we have any thing else baout his views on Muslims or is the only thing in all of his years this news story?Cptnono (talk) 23:04, 14 December 2010 (UTC)

Hmm, Cptnono. Sounds like a useful thing to look up! Smiles. (Btw, wrt the outrage over Beck's "10%" rhetoric, here is Mediaite's most recent follow up.)

Fareed Zakaria pointed out that, by Beck’s own definition, he would be a terrorist himself. Today, Beck responded with his own extension of logic that by pointing out that, by Zakaria’s definition, were Beck to vocally advocate the CNN host’s violent death, he “wouldn’t be in trouble.” Whoa. This argument took a hard left turn at some point.

--Hodgson-Burnett's Secret Garden (talk) 23:15, 14 December 2010 (UTC)

I'm thinking it took a hard turn early on, and the further it goes, the easier it is to see where its twisted path leads. Dylan Flaherty 02:15, 15 December 2010 (UTC)

I am all for including Burguire's explanation. However, it shouldn't be presented as a concrete rebuttal of Zakaraia's criticism. Most people aren't buying the explanation. And he uses a very questionable definition of terrorist to to make his point. But, even if one accepts his definition, his argument still doesn't work. The poll basically identifies people who say they agree with the use of violence against the US, that is different from actively advocating terrorism. Deliciousgrapefruit (talk) 13:58, 15 December 2010 (UTC)

Your interpretation of the explanation or the poll or anything are of little matter. We report what other reliable sources report, we don't interpret what they mean. Arzel (talk) 14:41, 15 December 2010 (UTC)

Sure, but we have to use our judgment in how they are presented is my point. Like I said, I am fine with including beck's producer's explanation. But it is clearly an argument most people aren't buying. And his definition of terrorist is questionable at best. Oops I forgot, experts on subjects like me can't weigh in. Your right, let's just hand the article over to beck's producers. Because it is basically being written by his followers already. Deliciousgrapefruit (talk) 14:46, 15 December 2010 (UTC)

So nothing, huh? This one news item is the only thing? Can you guys keep the discussion about the 10% thing up above? I mean, it really should be easy to craft a complete paragraph for this biography. At the end of the day, this news story is little but he has said some inflammatory stuff before so look at the big picture. Cptnono (talk) 01:18, 17 December 2010 (UTC)

"Most people aren't buying" it? Who are "most people"? Did you conduct a poll or something? Even Beck critics admit that he is technically accurate and their own anti-Beck arguments are, quote, "admittedly flimsy," yet they cling to them anyway. If anything is telling about Beck and his critics, this is:

... Look, I know my argument is more about feelings than facts... And therein, basically, lies the crux of my (admittedly flimsy) argument. ...

— Mediaite

-- Glynth (talk) 09:46, 18 December 2010 (UTC)

Stop bully editing Cptnono. Of course there is plenty of material out there on Beck's view regarding muslims. I am just not going to spend hours tracking it down. In the mean time, this story provides insight into the guy, and is a major controversy. It is also a fairly unique statement to come from a significant political pundit. Just stop blocking it for your own purposes, and please start being more polite. You are just one editor among many here, you are not the manager of this page. Deliciousgrapefruit (talk) 13:34, 17 December 2010 (UTC)

Glynth one blogger says his argument is flimsy. Zakaria never said that. And as someone who studies terrorism every day, I assure you, if we are going to pick apart arguments Becks response is simply a bad one, based on a bad understanding not only of terrorism, but of the terms within the definition and in the polls he cites. Deliciousgrapefruit (talk) 20:37, 18 December 2010 (UTC)

What a blogger says is of no importance here. Anyways, can you keep the back and forth on the news story up above? I would love to see a paragraph on his views on Muslims (good or bad) so hopefully this section of he talk page can pan out.Cptnono (talk) 20:42, 18 December 2010 (UTC)

I would be concerned about a whole section on his view on Muslims. I think he has expressed some thoughts on them, but it isn't like he's laid out a doctrine on Islam. Theoretically you could cobble together a "view on muslims" for any commentator (say a Bill O'reilly or Keith Olberman). If the person is known for having a concrete point of view on the religion, then by all means go for it. Don't believe that is the case with Beck. 173.48.16.187 (talk) 18:21, 3 January 2011 (UTC)

I did not say a whole section. I said a paragraph in an existing section. But yes, a whole section (as proposed by DG) is a concern. And there is tons out there that is just as titillating as the recent couple day news story. How about in '07 when he was protested by Muslim-American groups? How about his comments on the facility in NY which generated some press? This stuff is just as controversial and I am surprised that others were not trying harder on those issues. LOL, rcentism.Cptnono (talk) 06:38, 4 January 2011 (UTC)

I believe you proposed the whole section Cptnono. I just said it was something we could do. However the basic problem is finding many of those older stories online. I remember the story you mention here, but I'll be darned if I know where to find it now. Also a bigger concern with this section, is Beck's tendancy to contradict himself. I think we may end up with a statement he makes one month or year, which he disavows or contradicts at another time. I think it is much easier to take these on a case by case basis, such as with the 10% claim. Where we aren't painting a portrait of his views, but simply reporting a notable dispute that arose out of the statement. Deliciousgrapefruit (talk) 13:02, 5 January 2011 (UTC)

Article

The article was rife with redundancies, repetitions, POVs, peacocky words, and undue weight. Many items were repeated two and three times. There is much trivia that does not add to the article. It has been remarked by several editors that an edit of this article needs to be accomplished with an impartial eye, and this is what I am attempting to do. Namaste...DocOfSoc (talk) 06:37, 1 January 2011 (UTC)

The section on religious beliefs is long enough for a separate article. Updating as I go along. DocOfSoc (talk) 07:05, 1 January 2011 (UTC)

Your edits need a little more discernment. In this edit you removed all info on Arguing with Idiots, An Inconvenient Book, and the Christmas Sweater, except for one sentence that lists them off. None of this seemed redundant, repetitious or full of peacocky words.

Also, please at least explain your reasoning behind deleting these two sections:

Although the majority of his revenue results from his radio show and books, his website's 5 million unique visitors per month also provides at least $3 million annually, while his salary at Fox News is estimated at $2 million per year. Beck's online magazine Fusion sells an array of Beck-themed merchandise, while his website offers a web subscription service called "Insider Extreme" where for $75 a year one gets access to behind-the-scenes footage and a fourth hour of his daily radio show.

Mercury Radio Arts' flagship websites was GlennBeck.com, whose subscription-based premium content section, Insider Extreme, in 2010 began to include an hourlong video blog called the Fourth Hour with Stu and Pat (Stu Burguiere, Beck's producer since his days at WFLA in Tampa, and Pat Gray). A few interactive classes make up Beck University, added to the subscription website in July 2010. In August 2010, Beck launched an independent website, The Blaze, whose managing editor was Scott Baker.

--AerobicFox (talk) 08:05, 1 January 2011 (UTC)

Reads like an ad for his books. Too much detail not afforded other authors. A simple listing of the books is usual.

I deleted the above two sections because they read like ads for the Glenn Beck empire. This article simply has way too much undue weight. DocOfSoc (talk) 08

22, 1 January 2011 (UTC)

The story about his winning a radio contest at 13 is sufficient in one mention. Excess info about his income is unnecessary. Advertising for his sites are not appropriate here. A step by step listing of his career in radio is unnecessary.

Those who work in radio normally make many moves and it is boring. Do you really think his cruelly mocking a woman's miscarriage is necessary info? Who filled his jobs after he moved is totally unnecessary. Who cares whose wives were guest on his show? Again, just a listing of his books would be far more appropriate. I left far more info than I am comfortable with. Other authors just get listings. SEE: Bill O'Reilly's books: [3] If people want to know the details of his books they can go look elsewhere. This is not encyclopedic! DocOfSoc (talk) 08:35, 1 January 2011 (UTC)

This is not a fan page listing of all the places Mr. Beck can collect more money. We may have a POV issue here, are you a fan? Hope your New Year is happy one. Please look at this objectively. Namaste...DocOfSoc (talk) 08:41, 1 January 2011 (UTC)

Just looking at this article as an objective editor, it needs significant editing. I don't care what Mr. Beck says or does not say. Chronicling all of it in infinitesimal detail is undue weight, unnecessary and not encyclopedic. As a I mentioned before the section on Ideologies is more than enough for a separate article. The several sections concerning what the near world has said about Beck is simply TMI. It would be a great contribution if you would like to assist in editing the article rather than rv my carefully thought out edits. I hope to see you are up to the challenge. It's a new year and teamwork is the keyword :-) Best wishes. DocOfSoc (talk) 09:09, 1 January 2011 (UTC)

Unlike Arianna Huffington / Huffington Post or Nick Denton / Gawker Media and more like the blp for Andrew Breitbart there are no separate articles for GlennBeck.com or Inside Extreme/Fourth Hour with Stu and Pat, warranting an overview with their brief mention here.--Hodgson-Burnett's Secret Garden (talk) 21:10, 1 January 2011 (UTC)

Nothing wrong with some pruning. However, when you are reverted you should follow BRD. There is no reason to revert someone's revert without giving it ample time for discussion on the talk page. Somethings may get bogged down in the process but that is the way it is. Also, UNDUE deals with viewpoints and not details as you are applying it. I get what you are saying with some details being to in depth though.Cptnono (talk) 21:18, 1 January 2011 (UTC)

I didn't actually do reverting per se but pruned from the old version to create a brand-new Glenn Beck#Online publishing and websites subsection.--Hodgson-Burnett's Secret Garden (talk) 21:22, 1 January 2011 (UTC)

Sorry for not being clear. My comment was directed at Doc.Cptnono (talk) 21:27, 1 January 2011 (UTC)

Oh, OK Cptnono. In any case, the suggested order is (1) Bold (2) Revert (3) Discuss (although B-D-R would obviously be OK too, I think...). However, if DocOfSoc feels that the restored material in that section are of events/entities that aren't really notable, we do need to discuss the issue. I argue that GlennBeck.com and the live daily podcast warrant inclusion in the encyclopedia by their being mentioned and listed among links to articles that do exist about Beck's online offerings, due to the fact that they have engendered enough news coverage as part of Beck's empire and simply as themselves being media outlets.--Hodgson-Burnett's Secret Garden (talk) 21:39, 1 January 2011 (UTC)

"However, if DocOfSoc oS feels that restored mentions are of things that are not really notable, we do need to discuss the issue."
You do need to discuss things if people disagree.
The presence of a lot of detail does not mean that something reads like an ad. Most pop culture wikipedia articles like this one get a lot of trivia and extra facts, but this usually is a benefit to the project. Information about his income also doesn't seem irrelevant, but interesting. I like to get a sense on how much these services make for people like Beck and other popular hosts. A brief one sentence description about a book that has it's own article doesn't seem like excess, or an ad, so I would at least tell the reader what the book is on.--AerobicFox (talk) 21:42, 1 January 2011 (UTC)

(ec)D'oh. Last night's festivities screwing up my typing! BRD is of course correct :) Saw a quick revert he did (I didn't even look at the diff so he might be on the right page) and don't want to see any more edit warring. Overall I am just stoked to see some fresh eyes so no worries at this time at all. Cptnono (talk) 21:43, 1 January 2011 (UTC)

You got the BRD ordering right, actually. I just meant that whether a revert of longstanding material should be considered itself being B(old) or a R(evert) of existing details, the idea is to D(iscuss) the issues at hand. (Ooph, I'm getting tongue-tied here! IAC, although the important issue is to discuss the material itself on its merits and not so much worry about the niceties of process: the BRD order I think is meant to favort long-standing material being left standing while it's being discussed though unless there are BLP issues involved or the material is insufficiently sourced and is alleged to be false.)--Hodgson-Burnett's Secret Garden (talk) 21:56, 1 January 2011 (UTC)

LOL. I am getting brain tied then. Time for a mimosa to get my mind right. I see what you are getting at. Basically, if we have to slow down a little bit on a couple edits then we should. If something is pruned then reverted then it needs to be discussed over reverting. In the perfect world, DocofSoc would not be bulldozing at all and everything would be discussed if there is any chance it is contentious. However, I have a feeling that is not his style so we can wing it. As long as we keep cooler then we have been I am down with whatever.Cptnono (talk) 22:17, 1 January 2011 (UTC)

A description of his subscription services most certainly reads like an ad. This should absolutely not be included. Deliciousgrapefruit (talk) 22:02, 1 January 2011 (UTC)

Deliciousgrapefruit, you haven't challenged their notability but the NPOV of the text. Do you have any suggested edits top bring it into line? I'll try to address that issue in the meantime.--Hodgson-Burnett's Secret Garden (talk) 22:11, 1 January 2011 (UTC)

Perhaps the mention of their $$ earnings should be removed? Here is how the blp for Anrew Sullivan addresses a similar issue:

In late 2000, Sullivan began his blog, The Daily Dish. In the wake of September 11, 2001, attacks, it became one of the most popular political blogs on the Internet. By the middle of 2003, it was receiving about 300,000 unique visits per month.

300K is phenomenal for an intellectual blog, BTW. (Beck's site's 5M is due its being more a "political entertainment" venue. Meanwhile, Heather Armstrong's Erma Bombeckian or chick-littish prose garners millions of monthly hits as well.)--Hodgson-Burnett's Secret Garden (talk) 22:25, 1 January 2011 (UTC)

STOP DELETING MY POSTS. I QUIT. THIS ARTICLE IS EDITED BY BECKHEADS PLAIN AND SIMPLE. WIKIPEDIA SHOULD BE ASHAMED. Deliciousgrapefruit (talk) 22:47, 1 January 2011 (UTC)

Haven't even seen or heard Beck in over a year, so I don't think I qualify. Besides XXX-heads edit all XXX articles; try working with other users.--AerobicFox (talk) 22:50, 1 January 2011 (UTC) Any and all reference to subscription services should be removed. Are people so blind that they can't see beckheads are freakin editing this page? This article is an F ing ad. Deliciousgrapefruit (talk) 22:49, 1 January 2011 (UTC)

Not going to take your word for that. YOu are a beckhead. In fact, I think you work for him. Deliciousgrapefruit (talk) 22:52, 1 January 2011 (UTC)

That's just a little paranoid. I watch O'reilly with my father because he likes to watch that show, and I try to spend time with him, and I only saw some episodes of Beck around this time last year. Besides, isn't this an ad hominem? --AerobicFox (talk) 22:55, 1 January 2011 (UTC)

It is an ad hominem. And totally relevant. If you a fan or employee of Beck, that clouds you ability to contribute objectively to the article. While wikipedia editors shouldn't engage in ad hom in articles, when making a determination about an editors ability to contribute, ad homs should be employed. Deliciousgrapefruit (talk) 22:58, 1 January 2011 (UTC)

Sure you do. You work for beck and you know it. Why else would you want subscription costs mentioned in a supposedly objective article. This article is a piece of trash and needs to be deleted. Or at least charge beck advertising space for the thing. Deliciousgrapefruit (talk) 22:59, 1 January 2011 (UTC)

Are you actually serious? --AerobicFox (talk) 23:03, 1 January 2011 (UTC)

Absolutely, and you know I am telling the truth right now. Feign surprise all you want. We know you work for Beck. Deliciousgrapefruit (talk) 23:07, 1 January 2011 (UTC)

We are not encouraged to give out our political leanings but I myself believe in doing so. I am not even slightly libertarian. My favorite recent president was Jimmy Carter and I voted for and strongly support Barack Obama (to be truthful, I'd like him to be successfully MORE left wing, but I realize that the democratic process must follow the people's will). As for Beck's website offerings, they are relatively popular/have a high public profile, hence my belief that they are notable, as supported by coverage in wp:RSes in the news media. (I don't subsribe to them myself, nor listen to or watch Beck's show, btw.)--Hodgson-Burnett's Secret Garden (talk) 23:13, 1 January 2011 (UTC)

Are you serious? Listing the services provided by his website is relevant and not in any way an ad? I don't buy that at all. Deliciousgrapefruit (talk) 23:15, 1 January 2011 (UTC)

Beck University is notable enough to have it's own page. Not getting how it doesn't warrant a mention here. --AerobicFox (talk) 23:17, 1 January 2011 (UTC)

The Stu and Pat podcast does not necessarily include the live participation of Beck, yet is often mentioned in media accounts (Mediaite, Media Matters, etc etc); Fusion magazine is not edited directly by Beck; and Beck U. has engendered a lot of notice in the press. IAC, child articles are indeed to be wp:SUMMARIZED/mentioned in parent articles and until/if Mercury Radio Arts gets its own article, this one has to fill this role, just as is the case for Andrew Breitbart and certain other cases.--Hodgson-Burnett's Secret Garden (talk) 23:29, 1 January 2011 (UTC)

Can mentino he has a university. But you can't mention the cost of his webservices or the price of his tuition. When the article starts to resemble a brochure, that is an indication there is a problem. Deliciousgrapefruit (talk) 23:27, 1 January 2011 (UTC)

Actual prices are rarely notable. (Mention that a certain retail chain is a discount outlet, but don't list their exact average percentage below the prices of their competitors, for example.)--Hodgson-Burnett's Secret Garden (talk) 23:36, 1 January 2011 (UTC)

Never mentioned bringing up costs. --AerobicFox (talk) 23:46, 1 January 2011 (UTC)

Either way, a listing of various services beck is selling to customers isn't appropriate. Deliciousgrapefruit (talk) 18:28, 4 January 2011 (UTC)

Per the guidelines, subscription/non-subscription is not the basis for determining whether media programs or offerings are to be given encyclopedic coverage or not, rather it is whether some non-free service or another is notable. The New York Times, the Chicago Trubune, and the Los Angeles Times are not free but are noteworthy--ditto: news weeklies, services such as AOL, cable channels such as HBO and their programs, subscription radio offerings such as the Oprah Channel or the Stern Show--and on and on.--Hodgson-Burnett's Secret Garden (talk) 02:45, 5 January 2011 (UTC)

Entrepreneur before political commentator

In the forbes article Glenn Bekc Inc, he says "I could give a flying crap about the political process" because "We're an entertainment company." I feel like his perspective towards the role of his media holdings is critical is understanding who is as a person. I feel like his quote can be put under "Media career and income" in the paragraph or added to the separate quote box that currently includes the sentence following Beck's own quote. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Gsbus8 (talk • contribs) 23:01, 1 January 2011 (UTC)

He's primarily notable as being a commentator though. Einstein's true passion may have been as a cook, and he may of considered this his most important feature, but he's more notable as a theoretical physicist. --AerobicFox (talk) 23:04, 1 January 2011 (UTC)

Sure, but its still useful to include how he views himself. It gives context to his unique media strategy and explains many aspects of his commentary, thus adding to the depth of understanding of what he is most notable for. The edit should not be "he is not a commentator," but rather, he views his commentary as part of his entertainment strategy. Just like under personal info for Einstein, you might include he was a cook, or if he viewed his work in physics as part of his humanitarian ideals (purely hypothetical), you would include that to contextualize his work in physics.

Why someone does something is just as important as what they do. Given it's his words, it seems pretty objective and informative. Gsbus8 —Preceding undated comment added 23:10, 1 January 2011 (UTC).

I think this is problematic if you only include his reason for why he does what he does. Then the article becomes a vehicle for self promotion. Only should be included if notable counter examples are given. 173.48.16.187 (talk) 16:42, 3 January 2011 (UTC)

Who else is qualified to comment on his motivations? It's also not self-promotion, given that most of his commentary is done under the presumption that he does care about the political process. Not every statement about self-motivation can have counter examples, and its inclusion is still net positive in terms of broadening the understanding of the subject. Self-promotion would be like "Glenn Beck does this because he wants to change america" not "glenn beck thinks its profitable to say X." It's his opinion, and when you're writing about someone, it's useful to include their opinion, not necessarily every counter example. I understand the concern about self-promotion, but if this particular example does not in anyway promote Glenn Beck in a purely positive light, I think it's quite useful. It's like if someone made a notable report on government policy, and then later said "I only did this because X think tank paid me," that would be useful in discerning the context of the initial report. It's not self-promotion, it's shedding further light on the subjects own intentions. If its obviously a self-promoting statement meant to increase public appeal, I could see your point. But when it's an honest assessment of intentions that doesn't reek of pandering, it seems useful even without counterexamples. --Gsbus8 (talk) 00:02, 4 January 2011 (UTC)

It's like when the article says he credits god with having saved him from drug abuse. Do we need a counterexample that god didn't save him from drug abuse to include that? No, merely his statement is useful enough in learning more about Beck. The reader can believe his statement or not, but they should know he said it in the first place. That statement about god saving him from drug and alcohol abuse is also 10000x more self-promoting that my suggestion. --Gsbus8 (talk) 00:10, 4 January 2011 (UTC)

If there was a prominent counter example, yes. For instance, if someone else came forward saying it wasn't god at all, but a secular rehabilitation program he went through (just a made up example here), then that would need to be included. Deliciousgrapefruit (talk) 12:58, 5 January 2011 (UTC)

Reverts

You need to slow down, Doc. I am finding myself doing too many reverts since you are not using the discussion page. In particular, you just removed info from the lead with an edit summary saying it is repetitive. That is the purpose of the lead. It is supposed to be a standalone overview. So instead of shaping the article as you see fit, try looking at why the info might be in there. An alternative to full on removal of the publishing info might be to reduce its wordiness but some publishing info needs to be in the lead. I have not reverted this yet but might tomorrow. Any suggestions on how to summarize the publishing in the lead instead?

I reverted your deletion of an image that your edit summary saying it was simply moving an image. I agree the images need to be better distributed and might even need to be trimmed but moving them into a stack and then deleting doesn't work well.

I partially reverted your deletion of the rape stuff. It was a legal case that received tons of attention There is a whole other article for it so giving it summary style here is OK. Maybe trim it but not remove it?Cptnono (talk) 08:08, 4 January 2011 (UTC)

Also, any major adjustments to the layout needs to be taken to the talk page. Your personal preference might not be inline with MoS and could be debatable. Better safe than sorry, so please come to the talk page before doing that stuff again.Cptnono (talk) 08:14, 4 January 2011 (UTC)

I understand, there was just a discussion about making edits and then remarks on talk page. There is a concern that people who are johnny on the spot( and there is nothing wrong with that) will not wait for the discussion after the edits. They had no good answer but it was interesting. The "repetitious edit was the same exact info that is shown later down. I don't remember doing anything to the lead. The images were in an unattractive clump so I was trying to find the best places for them. I will go see your rv's so we can get together on this. I wish we could IM here!DocOfSoc (talk) 08:27, 4 January 2011 (UTC)

Most editors that I know, edit and then go to talk page. I put a lot of thot into editing and hold onto a picture before I replace it, as I did in this case. I may move it again, if it not just right, which I think I did until I was happy with it. Going back to compare your remarks with edits, side by side which I often do. BRB DocOfSoc (talk) 08:40, 4 January 2011 (UTC)

It looks to me that perhaps we should both slow down! ;-) A couple of your concerns I was in the middle of fixing. I did not touch the lead, the repetitious was from line 57 about his books which is already in the article. The lead is jsut fine and again, I did not touch it. The revert on the rape issue looks fine to me. I had not heard of it. I didn't delete any images. I moved them. The "Glenn Beck on cards "I moved to the main article where I felt it belonged and took away the clumpy problem. Please don't assume what I am doing until I am finished. I think it is looking good so far. So the question is: do you edit and then go to the talk page or go to the talk page and anticipate your edits before actually editing? I think the only concern where we were not in sync, was the rape paragraph. Yes? I need a bit of time to actually get to the talk page after editing. You were too fast for me LOL. I appreciate your concerns and hope I have addressed them properly. Have a good nite. Namaste...DocOfSoc (talk) 09:06, 4 January 2011 (UTC)

You are kidding me? I'll go back through and double check my own edits! :) Cptnono (talk) 15:29, 4 January 2011 (UTC)

Nope. Still looks like you said you were moving an image but deleted it. Maybe try the inuse template next time? I don;t see how it would have helped here since your next edit was not to put it back in but you were doing so many edits I assume that you were just juggling stuff around so not a big deal. But publishing is in the lead so my bad there! And yes, some people make changes and then talk but when someone is making contentious changes on an article that has a history of edit warring you are making the problem worse if you do so. So just take it easy a bit. I totally support your fresh eyes trimming but if there is any doubt in your mind you should bring it up here or else trouble is bound to come up.Cptnono (talk) 05:25, 5 January 2011 (UTC)

Beck's dispute with Zakaria needs to be included. This is a major dispute with a major figure and was the product of a highly controversial statement Beck made. Deliciousgrapefruit (talk) 13:29, 4 January 2011 (UTC)

Not taking sides and not a listener of Beck, but isn't highly controversial statement standard MO for him and most of the "talking heads" out there? What makes this "incident" "article worthy"? Again, I admitt I don't know the specific details about this "dispute" but is this really that big a deal or is it something you are really passionate about including? In cases like this, I would defer to consensus and hope more folks would chime in either way. Anyways, good luck. --Threeafterthree (talk) 14:10, 4 January 2011 (UTC)

Please do not change the scope of talk page discussions and duplicate them. Discussion for this is up above. Thanks.Cptnono (talk) 15:44, 4 January 2011 (UTC)

This is within the scope of this topic, because it was removed as a product of Docs changes.Once again, Cptnono: you are not the page manager here. Deliciousgrapefruit (talk) 18:27, 4 January 2011 (UTC)

This topic is about the speed of edits made to this page. Whether or not to keep certain disputes is being discussed in detail above so please see that discussion for gathering consensus on the matter. Also, please refrain from making comments such as "Once again, Cptnono: you are not the page manager here." and stick to actually discussing the relevant arguments. Failure to comply will result in a pie to the face. --AerobicFox (talk) 19:41, 4 January 2011 (UTC)

I am sorry Aerobic, but I can't help but feel that this "project" is being overseen by two problematic editors with questionable objectivity. Doc is doing commendable work, however it is an issue that the only two other people really involved in the rework are AerobicFox and Cptnono. And yes I will continue to defend myself when Cptnono acts like my boss. Deliciousgrapefruit (talk) 19:45, 4 January 2011 (UTC)

Cptnono was talking to both of you, and I have not taken any part in the rewrite. I'm not even sure if I have made more then 2 or 3 edits to this page in my entire edit history, so your characterization of me leading this rework, while flattering, is misplaced. DocofSoc and Hodgnsecret Garden are doing almost exclusively all of the rewrite. If you didn't always respond aggressively then other editors would be able to work with you better. AerobicFox (talk) 05:57, 5 January 2011 (UTC)

It doesn't matter. There is an out of chronological discussion going a few lines up, a discussion about the Muslim thing up above, and another ANI over there. We need to get back on track.Cptnono (talk) 06:01, 5 January 2011 (UTC)

Aerobic Fox, I wasn't talking about edit contributions, I was talking about consensus building. Because Cptnono enforces it very strictly (and I would say he does so inccorrectly based on my reading of the guideline), these discussion threads are very important. If two editors like you and Cptnono are the primary ones involved in the discussion, then you will basically be the shapers of content (no matter how good or bad your assessments). Deliciousgrapefruit (talk) 12:56, 5 January 2011 (UTC)

Beating the dead horse with new info Part Two

It is difficult to follow discussions if they are not kept sequential. I am going to move the last part of the discussion down here to continue. I hope that does not discombobulate anyone. DocOfSoc (talk) 06:32, 5 January 2011 (UTC)

"Glenn Beck, while generally viewed as a conservative (covered in lead), has fluctuated between considering himself a conservative libertarian to simply having libertarian leanings. His claim that he is a true libertarian though has been contested by XXX libertarians while group YYY have maintained there are aspects of libertarian philosophy fundamentally present in his political outlook.

Or something along those lines. --AerobicFox (talk) 06:14, 5 January 2011 (UTC)

I don't mind it. I would have gone a different way with it but after reading your I might have been way off. Probably too much for the lead but political views section could work. We would for sure need to redig up the sources to add to the line just to keep everything OK. Anyone else have any thoughts? This would actually clear up something that has come up several times on this talk page.Cptnono (talk) 06:19, 5 January 2011 (UTC)

I've improved the wording, so I hope this new version should be good enough to enter somewhere in the political outlooks. More could be done to make this better, and sourcing would be needed, but I think this may now take away any future arguments concerning his libertarian-ness. -AerobicFox (talk) 06:22, 5 January 2011 (UTC)

I would swear that said his libertarian-ass, sorry, cracked myself up!

AerobicFox that is a great effort to identify someone who cannot decide for himself what he is. He has said he is an entertainer or a clown and could care less about the political process.. Some really tough admins are my page stalkers, and no offense, but I have an idea what they would do to your valiant effort. See above and See ----->

DocOfSoc (talk) 06:58, 5 January 2011 (UTC)

Why part 2? The talk section up above was going fine. I will respond up there since I am not interested in making the talk page ven worse.Cptnono (talk) 07:12, 5 January 2011 (UTC)

As I said, talk pages need to be sequential or people like me have a difficult time finding, much less following the discussion. Thanks DocOfSoc (talk) 07:21, 5 January 2011 (UTC) OK, I may be wrong on this. Sorry DocOfSoc (talk) 13:58, 5 January 2011 (UTC)

"Glenn Beck defies labels. He vacillates somewhere between a conservative and a libertarian." all it needs is a sentence or two more. Beck changes from venue to venue from what I can see. Weasely words won't do it. What is a "wall of attribution?" Too tired tonite. Namaste...DocOfSoc (talk) 07:34, 5 January 2011 (UTC) :"Glenn Beck defies labels." is too much editorializing.

Striking text constitutes a change in meaning, and should only be done by the user or someone acting at their explicit request.DocOfSoc (talk) 13:58, 5 January 2011 (UTC)

Umm thanks for that. I'm going to go ahead and restrike my own words since I am that user though. --AerobicFox (talk) 20:41, 5 January 2011 (UTC)

I'm using "some libertarians" because I don't know. I have heard there are sources saying the libertarians but have not bothered going through the archives to find them, this is a skeletal example, the weseal words would be replaced by what the source says. I've replaced some with XXX to clarify.--AerobicFox (talk) 07:42, 5 January 2011 (UTC)

Strike all this, I'm responding up top as well since I don't think splitting this discussion is making it any easier to read. --AerobicFox (talk) 07:54, 5 January 2011 (UTC)

"Project"

Dear DeliciousGrapefruit, For your own good, please cease and desist attacking the team that is working on this article. I am speaking from past experience. Only with the input of and the cooperative teamwork here can this article be edited. As an experienced editor, I learned something new from the delightful Cptnono just the other day. AerobicFox is there to help. I must admit, I am growing smitten with the wise Hodg. ;-) ; None of which could have been accomplished by the inexperienced me a few years ago. Only by friendly cooperation and patience will you grow as an editor deserving of good faith. You just got here, other editors have much to teach you whether or not they are your cup of tea. Chill Babe, I believe you have much potential. Sincerely, DocOfSoc (talk) 06:12, 5 January 2011 (UTC)

Sorry. I simply disagree with you on this point. Deliciousgrapefruit (talk) 20:06, 6 January 2011 (UTC)

Missing poll

Gallup's most admired man and woman poll lists Glenn Beck as the #4 most admired man by Americans in 2009, and tied for #8 in 2010. If nothing else this should act as a good indicator of the size of his fan base. --AerobicFox (talk) 20:39, 5 January 2011 (UTC)

Another way to read that poll is admiration for him is declining. I don't know if a single poll is of much use here, unless it has been widely commented on. Deliciousgrapefruit (talk) 21:47, 5 January 2011 (UTC)

I assume this was publicized so grab some sources. In the section with public reception? I doubt DFs analyses received any RS from my quick look but that is something to consider if it is out there. Cptnono (talk) 08:00, 6 January 2011 (UTC)

With a margin of error of +/- 4%, the polls basically useless I would say. Soxwon (talk) 14:07, 6 January 2011 (UTC)

Edit request from 65.100.48.233, 6 January 2011

{{edit semi-protected}} Please change:

• Glenn Edward Lee Beck (born February 10, 1964) is an American radio and television host, conservative[5] author, entrepreneur and political commentator, who says "I could give a flying crap about the political process."

To:

• Glenn Edward Lee Beck (born February 10, 1964) is an American radio and television host, conservative[5] author, entrepreneur and political commentator.

Because it reads much better without a largely irrelevant quote in the opening. 65.100.48.233 (talk) 20:09, 6 January 2011 (UTC)

Done I don't think that's appropriate for the first sentence of a biography. -Atmoz (talk) 21:22, 6 January 2011 (UTC)

webpage

Most of this content should be removed. It is essentially an advertisement of the services one gets when they subscribe. Deliciousgrapefruit (talk) 20:16, 6 January 2011 (UTC)

Rather than wp:DONTLIKEIT, pls cite guideline.--Hodgson-Burnett's Secret Garden (talk) 21:19, 6 January 2011 (UTC)

What specific content issue dd you have in mind? Dinkytown talk 21:24, 6 January 2011 (UTC)

Trying to guess, he is probably citing wp:Promotion. However, the guideline's specified ins/outs shd be followed to the letter, rather than willy nilly (as per, say, any editors' personal POVs).

FWIW: From yesterday's NYT:

Former Huffington Post Chief Is Hired to Run Glenn Beck Site, by BILL CARTER January 5, 2011. Glenn Beck, the conservative talk-show host, has hired a onetime chief executive of the left-leaning Huffington Post to lead his new Web site, The Blaze. ...

--Hodgson-Burnett's Secret Garden (talk) 21:28, 6 January 2011 (UTC)

Hiding simple truths about Jim Wallis and Sojourners

People continue to edit out perfectly reasonable, fair, indisputably true, fully sourced, and uncontroversial facts about Jim Wallis and his organization. Stop this edit war at once. Wallis is a progressive activist (he admits as much) and his Sojourner's organization likewise pushes progressivism. He is a Leftist. That was redacted. Sojourners is progressive. That was redacted. Sojourners is liberal. That was redacted. And all of it even as my edit summaries explicitly tell people it's sourced and to not start an edit war. In fact, the first person who undid one of my edits gave me a vandalism warning and then redacted that warning after discussion on my talk page showed it was a perfectly fine edit. At least he had the intellectual honesty to discuss it instead of just undoing everything I do.

And now someone actually has gone in and removed the sourced fact that Wallis advises Pres. Obama, even though it's stated (with sources) that he is a political and spiritual advisor here. The edit summary says the source didn't say he's an advisor, seemingly arguing it was just a one-time thing, but the source doesn't say his position with the advisory council was temporary at all. In fact, the article was written in 2009 yet in 2010 Wallis continues to be involved, voting at meetings.

Look, I realize many people want (subconsciously or otherwise) to use this as some "example" of how horrible Beck is even in the minds of "Christians," but hiding the fact that those Christians are progressive political activists who advise Obama is to push a POV narrative rather than the facts. To simply give Sojourners the label of "Christian" here is to muddy the waters, an attempt to conflate it with non-partisan Christian organizations, many of whom would not want to be associated with Wallis or his organization. -- Glynth (talk) 01:41, 24 December 2010 (UTC)

There was no reason to start another discussion since there was one right above. 3 editors support. 1 editor on your talk page looks like he might lean support. And one opposes. Although consensus is not votes, I do not believe his argument trumps and it should be fine to go in. Just to be safe, any other objections?Cptnono (talk) 05:26, 24 December 2010 (UTC)

Yes, why are objections not being treated as votes here, but in the 10% page you were treating them as votes? Deliciousgrapefruit (talk) 14:41, 25 December 2010 (UTC)

This is a form of synthesis - adding information that was not in the original source in order to discredit the criticism that is cited. If the original source had drawn the connection, that would be fine, but adding it here would make the narrative biased. Also, saying that Wallis is an Obama adviser could imply that he was acting in his capacity as an adviser. In fact being an adviser to a presdient does not necessarily mean sharing their belief system - Paul Krugman was an adviser to the Reagan administration for example. TFD (talk) 19:23, 25 December 2010 (UTC)

Noted but the source does so by that logic we are good, right?Cptnono (talk) 02:26, 26 December 2010 (UTC)

The source that connects Wallis and Obama does not mention Beck.[4] The source that mentions Wallis and Beck does not mention Obama. In your mind you may make a connection but until someone else does it is original research. You cannot even find right-wing writers that make the same connections that you do. TFD (talk) 06:19, 26 December 2010 (UTC)

I don't think anybody's making the connections to Synth that you are making either. There is no need for a source to describe Wallis in relation to Beck in order to describe Wallis in Beck's article. If a source called Obama the president, could we not call him Predient Obama in this article without the source also mentioning Beck? Yes. --AerobicFox (talk) 06:54, 26 December 2010 (UTC)

The problem is these are subjective labels, that (particularly in the context of an article on Glenn Beck) are problematic because they are weighed down by additional pejorative connotations. Aerobic, we don't call Obama a liberal in his article do we? We general stick to less subjective categories like Democrat and Republican. Suggest simply referring to the group as a christian organization. Deliciousgrapefruit (talk) 14:18, 26 December 2010 (UTC)

It would be adding an implicit ad hominem argument against Wallis: Wallis advises Obama, therefore his commentary on Beck is politically motivated and can be discounted. TFD (talk) 14:51, 26 December 2010 (UTC)

Agreed with TFD that these labels are a concern. Deliciousgrapefruit (talk) 14:58, 26 December 2010 (UTC)

It's only considered an ad hominem if it's irrelevant to the discussion. If we said, Jim Wallis is a liberal, so beware what he has to say on the manufacturing of cotton, that would be an ad hominem. If on the other hand we say, Jim Wallis is a liberal, and is attacking a popular conservative commentator, then it's considered relevant enough to mention. You would think it would be relevant to mention if he were a conservative attacking Glenn Beck, would you not?

Besides, the political affiliation of someone attacking a political figure is always relevant, and portraying that as an ad hominem is loopy at best.
By the way, do you really you believe that liberal is a subjective label for Jim Wallis, and that his criticism was not even partly politically motivated? --AerobicFox (talk) 02:48, 27 December 2010 (UTC)

It is ad hominem whether or not it is relevant. If it is relevant then you should find no problem in finding a source that says so. Otherwise, it is just synthesis. TFD (talk) 03:05, 27 December 2010 (UTC)

"The ad hominem is a classic logical fallacy, but it is not always fallacious. For in some instances, questions of personal conduct, character, motives, etc., are legitimate and relevant to the issue."

Whether or not this is relevant should be up to the reader to decide, so if there is any expectation that a reader may find it relevant(which many will) then it should be included. --AerobicFox (talk) 05:36, 27 December 2010 (UTC)

See WP:SYN: "Do not combine material from multiple sources to reach or imply a conclusion not explicitly stated by any of the sources". In this case you would be combining statements reported to be made by Wallis in one source with biographical information from another in order to detract from the reliablity of Wallis' arguments. If the source had done that, then reporting it would be fine. Otherwise it is POV-pushing. TFD (talk) 06:22, 27 December 2010 (UTC)

Aerobic: Whether or not ad homs are permissible in certain arguments, they have no place in a wikipedia article. Deliciousgrapefruit (talk) 20:32, 27 December 2010 (UTC)

There is absolutely zero OR/SYNTH. The source says it.Cptnono (talk) 04:38, 28 December 2010 (UTC)

"Aerobic: Whether or not ad homs are permissible in certain arguments, they have no place in a wikipedia article." Ad hominems are permissible in all arguments when relevant; it depends on the usage of the word. As being purely an attack on someone's argument purely on their shortcomings and appealing to emotions rather than logic, then yes it is inappropiate. But here all that is being provided is the political alignment of a man making attacks on a political figure, which is not only appropriate for Wikipedia, but also consistently done. When responsibly used ad hominems are not logical fallacies(see ad hominem, because it's generally recognized that people have biases, and not presenting the relevant parts of a speakers background to the reader will mar their understanding of the topic. Should we start citing scientific evidence against Global Warming without mentioning the group producing it is a right-wing think-tank? You would be opposed then to removing political affiliation. You should have no problems then with the same principal being used here. --AerobicFox (talk) 07:00, 28 December 2010 (UTC)

And ad homs are only relevent in certain arguments. Either way, a wikipedia article isn't an argument, which is my point. You are confusing two issues here: ad homs in arguments, and whether ad homs belong in a wikipedia article. Deliciousgrapefruit (talk) 13:58, 28 December 2010 (UTC) By your logic aerobic fox we must now peg FOX as a conservative news station and MSNBC as a liberal news stations. We must also label every critic of every person by their political affiliation. Deliciousgrapefruit (talk) 14:08, 28 December 2010 (UTC)

We report ad hominen arguments when they have been made in sources. It is not our role to join in the debate and create our own arguement. We would certainly report scientific evidence (i.e., published in scientific peer-reviewed journals) for and against global warming without mentioning the political views of the writers. In fact academic writing does not use ad hominem attacks. TFD (talk) 15:36, 28 December 2010 (UTC)

For the billionth time please see the definition of ad hominem. Ad hominems are frequently used in encyclopedias and peer reviewed scientific journals, they are used whenever relevant. It's not just an exception to allow for them, it's an obligation to use ad hominems whenever relevant. The argument that ad hominems by default should be removed is ridiculous, please actually take the time to understand what an ad hominem is before making claims like "they don't appear in scientific journals". --AerobicFox (talk) 18:17, 30 December 2010 (UTC)

Aerobic Fox: Encyclopedias and peer reviewed scientific journals do not make ad hom arguments. In a scientific journal, what matters is evidence, not the person presenting it. You may see objections raised in the letters section of a journal that go into ad hom territory,however. JUst because use of ad hom is not always fallacious, doesn't mean encyclopedias make a practice of engaging in ad hom arguments. Deliciousgrapefruit (talk) 23:33, 30 December 2010 (UTC)

It is not our role to insert our own arguments into articles, which is original research. If sources make these arguments, then we may mention them. If Wallis's comments should be discounted because he advises Obama, then we need a reliable source that says that. TFD (talk) 01:33, 31 December 2010 (UTC)

Considering you have no part in academia I wouldn't be trying to speak on behalf of them. If the speakers background is important and relevant, then it is not a fallacy to present it. For instance a literary critic might mention the fact that "Because I could not stop for death" has been called one of the greatest poems in the English language by at least one preeminent critic, so at the very least it definitely has some merit. That is an obvious ad hominem, the merit of the preeminent critics' argument isn't even presented, just their status. Similarly deferring to another's argument in an academic field because of their expertise is often done. Many English professors cannot read or understand scansion, so they just wait for someone who's known for reading scansion to come along and refer to it as a certain type of meter, and then everybody just sort of uses what they said it is. It is kind of a joke among some of the lit majors, that nobody really understands it. Ad hominems like this are used with tremendous frequency all around us, in and outside the scholarly field. Besides, calling him a liberal isn't an ad hominem. Saying he's a liberal and therefore he's untrustworthy would be. It's up to the reader to make that call. Just saying he's liberal, isn't even close though to even being an ad hominem.
It would be OR calling him that if we said he's liberal, but according to Cptnono it says so in the source(which I cannot read due to lack of membership to the NY Times), and even if it didn't common sense tells us to put it in anyway because not including a activists political persuasion when making political attacks is omitting information which readers will likely want to read. --AerobicFox (talk) 07:13, 31 December 2010 (UTC)

I don;t know if you need a subscription. Try [5]. It flat out says "liberal". "Progressive" was a problem for one editor and "left wing" was not sourced but "liberal" is not derogatory and is completely sourced. End of argument, right?Cptnono (talk) 09:36, 31 December 2010 (UTC)

Aerobic: I am involved in academia, and what we are doing here is not literary criticism. Literary studies involves making subjective judgments about quality, but the hard sciences, and encyclopedias don't go there. You don't see encyclopedias making ad hom arguments. They can report them, but don't make them.

And finally, Cptnono is not the god of this site. He is just another editor among many. His judgment and his vote don't have more weight than anyone else's Deliciousgrapefruit (talk) 13:56, 31 December 2010 (UTC)

You don't have consensus. It can't go in. Two editors are for, and two are against. So it can't be included. And if anyone does include it, I will delete it on grounds that consensus hasn't been reached.Deliciousgrapefruit (talk) 13:59, 31 December 2010 (UTC)

And if you can't tell, I am being facetious, of course it can go in. It is totally relevant. But just to be clear aerobic fox, we don't make ad hom arguments here. We can present relevant details. Not the same thing. Blocking a relevant detail like this, is abuse and misuse of consensus. Deliciousgrapefruit (talk) 15:09, 31 December 2010 (UTC)

If academics use ad hominem arguments all the time and its use here is relevant then please find a source that uses this ad hominem about Wallis. It is not our role to conjure up arguments that no one else has made. TFD (talk) 16:22, 31 December 2010 (UTC)

I agree it needs to be sourced. For an editor to identify someone as liberal or progressive, is putting their own judgement in there, unless there is some source where the subject self identifies, or he is characterized as such by an objective news source (not an op ed column or cable news channel). But I suspect the subject has self identified as liberal or progressive. Again, my only issue with the term progressive, is Beck's particular use of the term, which I think clouds the waters. Deliciousgrapefruit (talk) 17:36, 31 December 2010 (UTC)

Again, it does not matter what someone's political viewpoint is, unless a reliable source says it does. We would write for example, that the Director of Homeland Security, who is a liberal, denies that there are FEMA concentration camps. TFD (talk) 19:43, 31 December 2010 (UTC)

Again. RS does. So is it cool to put in?Cptnono (talk) 23:01, 31 December 2010 (UTC)

As has been explained to you over and over again, you do not have a reliable source for the argument you wish to insert. If you have trouble understanding Wikipedia policy on synthesis, then you might ask other editors there to explain it to you. TFD (talk) 23:37, 31 December 2010 (UTC)

I agree with that.Deliciousgrapefruit (talk) 22:10, 31 December 2010 (UTC)

To quote the source of the article:

"This week the remarks prompted outrage from several Christian bloggers. The Rev. Jim Wallis, who leads the liberal Christian antipoverty group Sojourners, in Washington, called on Christians to leave Glenn Beck."

To not address the speaker of an argument(ad hominem) when it is relevant is irresponsible. Academics do use ad hominems, if you think you don't then it is because you do not understand what an ad hominem is. An ad hominem isn't just "The speaker's argument is wrong because the speaker is XXX" it is also "The speaker is an expert on XXX and their insight or opinion into this matter should be valued because they're an expert". Both are ad hominems, you make an ad hominem every time you say to use a reliable source not because of the argument it makes, but because the source is reliable, no matter how ridiculous what they are saying is. A ban of describing a source because describing a source is an "ad hominem" is ridiculous. Why should the reader not be told whether one scientist is an expert on dermatology vs. one on geology, should we start just saying "This scientist believes sedimentary rocks are formed from lava" and neglect to mention that said scientist is a dermatologist? If that would be an ad hominem(and it would be) because being a dermatologist might discredit them then by all means let's make that ad hominem and move on to issues which don't have common sense solutions.--AerobicFox (talk) 02:26, 1 January 2011 (UTC)

The original conversation was about calling Wallis an adviser to Obama and several other descriptions were recommended that were not in the source. Yes, the Sojourners is described in the article about this incident as a "liberal Christian antipoverty group" and unless there is some reason to believe that that description is inaccurate it is fine to use. Incidentally, although it is unlikely that a dermatologist would publish a paper in a peer-reviewed geology magazine, scholars would not write papers attacking the writer but the paper itself. You may disagree with Newton's and Einstein's beliefs but that does not discredit their theories. TFD (talk) 04:07, 1 January 2011 (UTC)

There was a little bit of a disconnect there. Changed with the line mentioned.[6] Good?Cptnono (talk) 04:30, 1 January 2011 (UTC)

No that's fine. TFD (talk) 06:41, 1 January 2011 (UTC)

"scholars would not write papers attacking the writer but the paper itself."

Ad hominems aren't a black and white, evil thing that is never used by "scholars", they're used responsibly all the time to give additional background and context to a work. A historian employed by a general to write a book on a battle he commanded would have his employment brought up by other scholars reviewing the work who would read said work through that lens expecting the book to be a bit more favorable to the general then it otherwise would be. Ad hominems like these are common and are accepted standard. As for the change I'm fine that. The current wording is the same from this edit by Glynth which was reverted.--AerobicFox (talk) 07:12, 1 January 2011 (UTC)

Aerobic, you keeping arguing about what scholars do and don't do, and no one is really challenging that. In fact, I don't think anyone is terribly interested in discussing scholarship and ad homs, because that isn't what is being debated here. We are just pointing out that determining what details about a person are relevant isn't our job here. Our job is to report what other sources have said. If another source, says someone is liberal and that impacts his assessement of Glenn Beck, we can include that. But we don't draw that connection ourselves. Deliciousgrapefruit (talk) 13:30, 1 January 2011 (UTC)

Well we can respectfully disagree, I believe there was a lot of arguing over whether ad hominems can be used in encyclopedias up above. Our job is to inform the reader, selectively choosing to leave out descriptors like liberal which are in the source doesn't inform anybody. --AerobicFox (talk) 23:01, 1 January 2011 (UTC)

This discussion comes up all the time at aspartame-related articles. Since most of the studies have been funded by the industry, various citizens groups allege that there is a conspiracy to hide the supposed ill-effects of aspartame. But there is nothing in the scientific literature making this criticism. On the other hand, if an aspartame manufacturer prepared a study that was published outside the academic press, scientists would ignore it. TFD (talk) 23:36, 1 January 2011 (UTC)

Yes there appears to be great misunderstanding on this discussion page about what an ad hom is, and how academia conducts itself. Full discolure is not the same thing as an ad hom. And academia most certainly doesn't engage in ad hom (at least in the more rigorous disciplines like science and history (in critical studies you will see ad homs, but that is because these departments are little more than vehicles for opinion writing.)173.48.16.187 (talk) 16:49, 3 January 2011 (UTC)

So... we just decided to remove the entire section on Wallis, or something? In any case, it's gone at the moment. I suppose that's much easier than getting certain people to give up their attempts to hide basic, NPOV and 100% relevant one-word-descriptor facts about people that might undermine their "Christians hate Beck, too!!11" fantasies. -- Glynth (talk) 06:16, 7 January 2011 (UTC)

Abuse of consensus

I added the Beck-Zakaria under notable controversies, because it is a notable controversy that has appeared in major news sources. No objections that were raised were valid. [redacted personal attack].Deliciousgrapefruit (talk) 23:17, 31 December 2010 (UTC)

There is already a discussion so you do not need to start a new one (unless you are opening an RFC). I will not repeat my argument imply because you disagree. I have explained to you on your talk page the problem with your edit and options available to you. Do not edit war or add in an edit without consensus on a BLP.Cptnono (talk) 23:21, 31 December 2010 (UTC)

Cptono, in your reversion and your threat to have me banned, you cited a policy which I did not violate. My contribution is absolutely in keeping with that policy guideline. If you insist on making an issue of it, then you should agree to enter mediation. And you cannot ban someone for an edit war. It isn't vandalism when it is a legimitate dispute. And for the last time, read the consensus guidelines. You are misusing them. Deliciousgrapefruit (talk) 23:30, 31 December 2010 (UTC)

Not everything that has appeared in major news sources is notable. Where is the lasting significance of this, and will it ever be mentioned again in a newspaper?--AerobicFox (talk) 08:15, 1 January 2011 (UTC)

It will be mentioned, because he is the first major pundit to say he believes the number of muslims who are terrorist is close to 10%. You can bet that will come up again. Deliciousgrapefruit (talk) 13:27, 1 January 2011 (UTC)

Oh, no doubt, as the Beck-haters have added to their long list on why Beck is an evil SOB. And when it does, he'll be ready with the exact same study he cited before. Y'know, since he waved the study around a bit, the whole "controversy" more or less blew over. Maybe there's a reason for that. And that ties into why it's not notable. -- Glynth (talk) 06:18, 7 January 2011 (UTC)

Beating the dead horse with new info

I was looking for info to add related to his business and finances, and on his bizshark profile he is called a "libertarian political commentator". His libertarian leanings are clearly significant, and should be mentioned. Any ideas? --AerobicFox (talk) 21:53, 1 January 2011 (UTC)

The thing is, Beck has a history of being less "isolationist"/"counter foreign adventurisms" than was old school turn-of-the-20th century "paleo," limited-government conservativism or many current strands within US libertarianism, I think (that is, he tends to agree with the sort of "neo" Weekly Standard on some issue more than libertarian Reason magazine?)--Hodgson-Burnett's Secret Garden (talk) 22:05, 1 January 2011 (UTC)

Stupid horse! Labeling him a "libertarian" is probably no good since it has been disputed. Clearly explaining his libertarian ideals would be an easy way to handle it though.Cptnono (talk) 22:09, 1 January 2011 (UTC)

The problem with his libertarian leanings being mentioned is they are a source of contention among libertarians. A lot of libertarians out there dispute him being labeled as such. Deliciousgrapefruit (talk) 22:38, 1 January 2011 (UTC)

A conservative with some libertarian ideals then? --AerobicFox (talk) 22:42, 1 January 2011 (UTC)

No. He isn't a libertarian. He employs the label. But I don't think he is a libertarian by any measure. He is a conservative, and some conservative principles intersect with libertarians. He is as much of a libertarian as Barrack Obama. Deliciousgrapefruit (talk) 22:50, 1 January 2011 (UTC)

He doesn't seem to care about gay marriage, and his reason being that people should be allowed to do what they want if it doesn't hurt others seems fairly libertarian. Considering how much he and his followers believe this it should be covered in some regard. --AerobicFox (talk) 23:07, 1 January 2011 (UTC)

Lots of people don't care about gay marriage. That doesn't make them libertarians. Deliciousgrapefruit (talk) 23:08, 1 January 2011 (UTC)

It makes them apolitical. AerobicFox (talk) 19:35, 2 January 2011 (UTC)

I agree that his stance on gay marriage is significant, and should be included. But don't agree he can be labeled a proper libertarian. 173.48.16.187 (talk) 17:43, 3 January 2011 (UTC)

Since he doesn't care about "gay marriage" why should it be included?[7] DocOfSoc (talk) 13:56, 7 January 2011 (UTC)

Guys, I'm not up to date on the current discussion, but unless there's some context I'm missing, then this thread is being handled incorrectly. We should not ever be debating the "actual" meaning and applicability of a label like this. Either he is referred to as a libertarian, and the label is appropriate in the article, or he is not, and it is not. If it is disputed in reliable sources, then we should say that. Our opinions on the matter, and the actual definition of the term, are entirely irrelevant. What do reliable sources say? Also, if he claims to be a libertarian, that has to be included somewhere. Jess_talk|_edits 18:03, 3 January 2011 (UTC)

Tend to agree with Mann-Jess. DocOfSoc (talk) 14

01, 5 January 2011 (UTC)

The RS should be in the archives. Let me know if you need me to track it down. Basically, Beck has referred to himself as a libertarian then said no he wasn't. Some libertarians have disputed it while others have linked him with it. So any label simply won;t work but explaining the above might be possible if necessary with the sources previously provided.Cptnono (talk) 03:03, 4 January 2011 (UTC)

The source I provided though does call him a libertarian; although I'm completely unsure of who writes the profiles for Bizshark, so I'm unaware if that could be called reliable. --AerobicFox (talk) 06:05, 5 January 2011 (UTC)

But others do not and even dispute it so it would need to be handled differently then a label ("he is a libertarian"). "Some have said... because... yada yada" or something would be another way.Cptnono (talk) 06:06, 5 January 2011 (UTC)

How 'bout

"Glenn Beck, while generally viewed as a conservative, has at various times fluxated between considering himself a conservative libertarian to simply having libertarian leanings. The claim that he is a true libertarian though has been contested by some libertarians while others have maintained there are aspects of libertarian philosophy fundamentally present in his political outlook."

Or something along those lines. --AerobicFox (talk) 06:14, 5 January 2011 (UTC)

I don't mind it. I would have gone a different way with it but after reading your I might have been way off. Probably too much for the lead but political views section could work. We would for sure need to redig up the sources to add to the line just to keep everything OK. Anyone else have any thoughts? This would actually clear up something that has come up several times on this talk page.Cptnono (talk) 06:19, 5 January 2011 (UTC)

I've improved the wording, so I hope this new version should be good enough to enter somewhere in the political outlooks. More could be done to make this better, and sourcing would be needed, but I think this may now take away any future arguments concerning his libertarian-ness. -AerobicFox (talk) 06:22, 5 January 2011 (UTC)

I wouldn't worry about Doc's objection in a below section. Although the whom template is a great tool when POV and ambiguity is in question, it is also a problem when trying to not give too much prominence to certain aspects that are so well reported that it would create a wall of attribution. Of course, we could make it a whole subsection with every single story attributed and rebuttals and rebuttals to those but that goes against the recent pruning, doesn't it?Cptnono (talk) 07:15, 5 January 2011 (UTC)

I think it would. I wish I read your post before posting below. --AerobicFox (talk) 07:53, 5 January 2011 (UTC)

The commenters above that say to just report what's in the sources are right. Political sub-categories are so complicated its often the case that its impossible to categorize some polico as being in one or another of em. Eg at the article Paleolibertarianism it says,

"Paleolibertarianism is a school of thought within American libertarianism formerly associated with Lew Rockwell, the late economist Murray Rothbard, and the Ludwig von Mises Institute. It is based on a combination of radical libertarianism in politics and cultural conservatism in social thought and opposes a libertarianism which advocates "freedom from cultural norms, religion, bourgeois morality, and social authority."

Austrian economics, anti-federalism, opposition to war, Misesian libertarianism, and anarcho-capitalism heavily influenced the movement's attitudes toward ideas on trade, commerce, immigration and the state.

...

Murray Rothbard declared in 1992 that "with Pat Buchanan as our leader, we shall break the clock of social democracy." Three years later, he said Buchanan developed too much faith in economic planning and centralized state power.

Pat Buchanan is, for example, more of an "isolationist" than Beck has ever been, so if even Buchanan isn't necessarily thought a completely bonefide "old school" conservative libertarian....... what chance does Beck have, then, huh?--Hodgson-Burnett's Secret Garden (talk) 15:21, 5 January 2011 (UTC)

Hodg you are brill! DocOfSoc (talk) 15:39, 5 January 2011 (UTC)

The end of the intro sentence reads funny: "who says "I could give a flying crap about the political process."" Doesn't seem like this sort of thing should be in the first section at all. Remove that part and it reads much better. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.100.48.233 (talk) 22:28, 5 January 2011 (UTC)

Source does not clarify what he calls himself, esp. since it starts with "I dunno" leaving that out is a form Of "synthesis." Also there has yet to be a consensus on his "label" mostly because he does not fit into any one category. DocOfSoc (talk) 14:57, 7 January 2011 (UTC)

It certainly states his own opinion of his own position -- the cavil that "dunno" somehow reduces the value of the statement is withot reasonable foundation. Collect (talk) 15:37, 7 January 2011 (UTC)

"Give a damn" Quote

DocOfSoc, why does this quote need to go in the lead? Has it been referenced many times and become synonymous with Beck? If not, it's really just some random quote that has no real significance. Soxwon (talk) 14:43, 7 January 2011 (UTC)

I agree. It seems out of place and WP:Undue for the lead.  Redthoreau -- (talk) 15:59, 7 January 2011 (UTC)

OK. Semi-consensus and the sensible Redthoreau works for me. Soxwon, I would rather have you with me than "agin" me :) Namaste...DocOfSoc (talk) 14:20, 8 January 2011 (UTC)

Expanding the lead

For an article this size, it is perfectly acceptable to start with three paragraphs, and work our way to four or five if required:

• First paragraph: Name, bdate, title, career highlights, general notability.
• Second paragraph: Summary of Beck's personal life, early years and adulthood, career in radio and television, published books, stage shows and speeches
• Third paragraph: Beck-related projects and rallies, project and tea party protests, restoring honor rally, political views, ideological influences, public reception and public disputes.

My preference is to split the public reception and public disputes out into a fourth paragraph. Viriditas (talk) 12:51, 9 January 2011 (UTC)

For an article this size, it is perfectly acceptable to start with three paragraphs, and work our way to four or five if required:

• First paragraph: Name, bdate, title, career highlights, general notability.
• Second paragraph: Summary of Beck's personal life, early years and adulthood, career in radio and television, published books, stage shows and speeches
• Third paragraph: Beck-related projects and rallies, project and tea party protests, restoring honor rally, political views, ideological influences, public reception and public disputes.

My preference is to split the public reception and public disputes out into a fourth paragraph. Viriditas (talk) 12:51, 9 January 2011 (UTC)

I would like to point out that the argument that this article is too long isn't true. In terms of actual readable prose, there is about 4,000-5,000 if you do an actual word count. Soxwon (talk) 01:54, 10 January 2011 (UTC)

Agreed, although the word count I got from a rough estimate was ~6000, possibly 6500. For my argument about lead vs. length, see the following: [8] There is a fundamental problem communicating basic Wikipedia policies and guidelines here, and I think an article RfC would help. I would appreciate it if a neutral RfC was authored by an uninvolved party. For the record, I have very little interest in this article, other than seeing it improved to standards. Viriditas (talk) 02:01, 10 January 2011 (UTC)

As long as the lead summarize everything on the article. That's what's the leads are supposed to be about. − Jhenderson ⁷⁷⁷ 02:05, 10 January 2011 (UTC)

Well, that's the crux of the problem. IMO, the lead does not summarize the article, and it is virtually unprecedented to have a ~40,000 character, ~6,000 word encyclopedia article represented by a lead section composed of 134 words. The argument isn't even tenable. Viriditas (talk) 02:08, 10 January 2011 (UTC)

Well I am sure you can work things out to make it comply with WP:Lead. Why are we mainly discussing it instead of fixing it. Is there some kind of disagreements or edit war leading it to be discussed if you don't mind me asking. − Jhenderson ⁷⁷⁷ 15:31, 10 January 2011 (UTC)

What does this have to do with anything relating to Beck? Soxwon (talk) 06:13, 10 January 2011 (UTC)

Fresh start

TY, see my talk page. Namaste...DocOfSoc (talk) 12:19, 10 January 2011 (UTC)

Arrghurrrphrumpph

Gonna discuss an editing issue, as an, um, Teaching Moment.

Point 1: be conservative. The most basic page on all of WP is wp:EDIT. This page, especially its wp:PRESERVE section, talks about not undoing uncontroversial MATERIAL on Wikipedia simply because it isn't up to snuff in FORM. I.e., if some MATERIAL would belong in a finished article, even if it requires some editing of FORM, THEN LEAVE IT BE. If you want to be a peach, "tag" it. (For example, {{Peacock}}, etc., etc.) If you want to be an Eagle Scout or a Gold Award Girl Scout, then bring the matter to the talk page and hope someone else steps in to fix it. If you want to be a truly helpful Wikipedian, fix it yourself.

OK then. Now to an actual point of recent contention. Point 2: Research editing guidelines when in doubt. <sighs> Recently I linked Chris Balfe. Then an editor reverted me with the edit summary, "[...]don't link it, as it would be a redlink."

Do a little searching and you will find the page called wp:REDIRECT, in whose wp:NOTBROKEN subsection it sezzz

With a few limited exceptions, there are no good reasons to pipe links solely to avoid redirects. It is almost never helpful to replace [[redirect]] with [[target|redirect]]. (However [[redirect|target]] may be replaced with [[target]] if [[redirect]] is not a {{Redirect with possibilities}}).

It is likewise unhelpful to edit visible links for no reason other than to avoid redirects. That is, editors should not change, for instance, [[Franklin Roosevelt]] to [[Franklin D. Roosevelt]] just to "fix a redirect". This rule does not apply to cases where there are other reasons to make the change, such as linking to an unprintworthy redirect.

Please take a note of it. Thank you.

--Hodgson-Burnett's Secret Garden (talk) 22:51, 18 January 2011 (UTC)

Never mind. (I'd messed up the Wlink.)--Hodgson-Burnett's Secret Garden (talk) 22:54, 18 January 2011 (UTC)

"Point 1: be conservative."

Openly suggesting a political POV? :P --AerobicFox (talk) 23:19, 18 January 2011 (UTC)

Oops, I hope not (I'm a bit of a anarcho-capitalist myself)!--Hodgson-Burnett's Secret Garden (talk) 00:47, 19 January 2011 (UTC)

This is just a pointer

Some editors watchlisting this page seem to be unaware of the wp:WELLKNOWN subsection of the wp:BLP page. The fact that, e.g., a U.K. politically progressive Jewish group [this despite this group's--and other similar groups making similar complaints--connection, via their funding, to financier/philanthropist/activist George Soros]...is calling for Beck's show to be banned there under their hate speech laws (Britain of course having no codified right of free speech) is at least a part of the well-known, public commentator Mr. Beck's public image and perceptions. Whether this current controversy deserves a place in the article under wp:WEIGHT is another matter, but to delete the discussion of the subject ironically itself violates the free flow of information necessary to sift through these issues among editors IMO. Anyone else agree with me?--Hodgson-Burnett's Secret Garden (talk) 16:35, 20 January 2011 (UTC)

Yeah, I would not of deleted the discussion here, but I disagree that it has enough weight to be included into the article. The fact that many politically progressive groups are trying to get him off the air is just a redundant reminder that Glenn Beck dislikes Progressivism, and not a significant part of his public image. Unless you can find a source that says large swathes of the general population believe Beck is an Anti-Semitic then I don't see how it could be put in without sounding POV. --AerobicFox (talk) 18:02, 20 January 2011 (UTC)

Whether it should be included depends on how well their campaign to get him off the air in England is going. If they are attracting support, and people think he violates England's hate speech laws, sure its significant. If only a handful of people take it seriously. No significant. 24.61.171.248 (talk) 14:33, 21 January 2011 (UTC)

Tucson

In light of the recent tragedy, this may need to be addressed.: http://www.azcentral.com/news/articles/2011/01/14/20110114arizona-shooting-victim-blames-palin-beck-politico.htmlDocOfSoc (talk) 08:07, 15 January 2011 (UTC)

No more than in the Palin or Politico articles. Let's please not shift the message of this from telling people to pay attention to their friends and families if they are in trouble, and may need psychiatric help, to let's blame it on divisive political figures. --AerobicFox (talk) 23:10, 15 January 2011 (UTC)

(BLP violations redacted) Fat&Happy (talk) 04:22, 16 January 2011 (UTC)

Does the talk page of a BLP article have to abide by the same BLP standards as the article page does? Lhb1239 (talk) 00:51, 16 January 2011 (UTC)

Never mind, I answered my own question with this: [9]. Lhb1239 (talk) 00:59, 16 January 2011 (UTC)

Glad to see no one's come away with the suggestion to lower the political rhetoric. --AerobicFox (talk) 02:02, 16 January 2011 (UTC)

Well, obviously not. But it's the link above has an interesting follow-up. As Paul Harvey would say, "The rest of the story": "Shooting victim arrested, accused of threat". Fat&Happy (talk) 04:18, 16 January 2011 (UTC)

It probably should be mentioned that his name came up in the aftermath, along with other conservative leaders. Should be careful though to include the range of view points, and the apparent consensus that this wasn't a product of rhetoric but of a deranged mind. Still the blame game afterwards was significant and some people did blame beck. If one of the victims did as well, that is definitely worthy of mention. 24.61.171.248 (talk) 13:29, 18 January 2011 (UTC)

Problem there is that just about every single commentator was mentioned - so there is not proper weight for Beck in specific. Just because a name is mentioned by someone does not mean the factoid then belongs in a BLP. Collect (talk) 14:44, 18 January 2011 (UTC)

Well, Beck was singled out by one of the victims and his name and Sarah Palin's seemed to be the most thrown around at the time. Not saying they were in any way responsible for the shootings (in fact I think the instant outcry reflects poorly on the other side),but they were the focus. Like I said, it should be handled judiciously and fairly, but it is significant enough to mention. 24.61.171.248 (talk) 14:50, 18 January 2011 (UTC)

Which means exactly what in a BLP? You mean the people who called Bush a "murderer" should get a big mention in his BLP as proof he has been called a "murderer"? Nah. Collect (talk) 16:43, 18 January 2011 (UTC)

I think it is fair in the case of George Bush's BLP to mention that such diatribes were being thrown at him (as it is fair to mention some people were calling Barrack Obama a socialist). In the case of Glenn Beck, this was a big controversy, and his name, along with Palin's, was in the lead. 24.61.171.248 (talk) 14:36, 21 January 2011 (UTC)

In this case, because a number of people were accused of this, and it wasn't solely focused on Beck, those accusations are better described on the article about the Tuscon attacks, rather than Beck's page. Sχeptomaniac^{χαιρετε} 15:16, 21 January 2011 (UTC)

But Beck was the most cited pundit (while Palin was the most cited Politician). Seems like it should get mention in the bio page. 24.61.171.248 (talk) 15:03, 22 January 2011 (UTC)

YouTube

youtube.com/watch?v=cQcvbw6ExTQ is a copyright violation. Do not link to it. Plug: WP:VIDEOLINK Cptnono (talk) 22:26, 20 January 2011 (UTC)

An Examiner.com author defends Beck, arguing that the "You're gonna have to shoot them in the head" remark's full context reveal it to have been "hypothetical in nature, suggesting that the Democrats may have to end up shooting the Яevolutionaries once they can no longer meet their demands." -->Link --Hodgson-Burnett's Secret Garden (talk) 11:22, 21 January 2011 (UTC)

Kos just posted this. But, as Patrick Frey argues at Patterico's Pontifications:

the word “you” refers to the leftist politicians in Washington and their pals in the media, and “they” refers to their radical leftist friends — who, Beck warns, actually believe there must be violent revolution . . . and if they don’t get what they want, they may start one.

Beck is warning the comfortable pols that the people who put them in power aren’t going to be satisfied with seeing just a little of their agenda accomplished. They want it all. Because they are revolutionaries at heart — people who have called for violence and never repudiated it. And if they aren’t satisfied, Beck tells the pols, they will come after you. Violently.

You’re going to have to shoot them in the head. But they may shoot you.

[Center-left bloggers want...]you to believe that the “you” is Beck’s audience, whom Beck is inciting to violence. Nothing could be further from the truth.

Anyway, there's interesting back-'n'-forth out there on this stuff, IMO.--Hodgson-Burnett's Secret Garden (talk) 18:20, 21 January 2011 (UTC)

That's cool and everything, but what do you think from that would be appropriate to the article? It seems like nobody but blogs have picked on on this, one blog distorts, and the other blog counters. I don't think is notable enough per WP:WEIGHT to go anywhere. You can monitor it for something to change and for this to become relevant though, but I don't think anything will come from this IMO. Thanks for posting the info though.AerobicFox (talk) 05:27, 22 January 2011 (UTC)

Examiner.com is not RS. Also, there is a link to YouTube on this talk page. It is as a popup in the address but if it is not from Glenn Beck or Fox it has to go immediately. Those who repeat violations of copyright are subject to blocks.Cptnono (talk) 06:13, 30 January 2011 (UTC)

The controversy surrounding his George Soros series

The episodes that he make about George Soros being a puppeteer toppling regimes and being a collaborator during the Holocause drawn a huge amount of criticism. Many people have noted the similarities between the tactics Beck used and anti-semitism, including the Anti-Defamation League, according to the New Yorker (See here for details:http://www.newyorker.com/talk/comment/2010/11/29/101129taco_talk_hertzberg). Is this worth mentioning? It seems like he crossed a line when he did this.Eclecticperson34 (talk) 19:08, 30 January 2011 (UTC)

Sir Harold Evans' statements regarding Glen Beck on BBC Radio on 29th January 2011

I've just (08:40 GMT 29/1/11) heard Sir Harry Evans http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harold_Evans on BBC Radio 4's The Today Programme here in the UK say that Beck should be 'put in a lunatic asylum' and that he heard him very recently say that a political opponent should 'have a gun put to his head'. Does anyone have source for the second accusation? Jerry (talk) The interview with Evans will be available to stream Today's website here later today. http://news.bbc.co.uk/today/hi/default.stm I would also be interested to hear whether, if this is true, Beck's statement would constitute a criminal offence in the USA as it would in the UK: see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Encouraging_or_assisting_crime#Encouraging_or_assisting_crime Jerry (talk) 09:22, 29 January 2011 (UTC)

— Preceding unsigned comment added by Jerry cornelius (talk • contribs) 08:59, 29 January 2011 (UTC)

The WMF specifically states that questions about international law are not answerable by WP, and that the only applicable laws are those of Florida and the US. The statement about "gun to the head" must, moreover, be read in context, and it is clear that metaphorical speech in the US is time-honored, and is not looked at as a "hate crime." Even in the UK, metaphors are allowed. Collect (talk) 11:51, 29 January 2011 (UTC)

The gun to the head comment sounds like the comment Beck made about liberals needing to shoot the far left in the head before they shoot them in the head.

'put in a lunatic asylum'

This person needs to learn that using antiquated diction to refer to the mentally ill is repugnant. How is calling someone in lunatic in a psuedo-medical related way worse then calling a black person the N-word. Both are historically disparaging terms for an oppressed group. Please note that I am disgusted by the treatment of the mentally ill, and any users here who refer to Beck or anyone else as mentally ill in a disparaging way will be making it harder to work with me. AerobicFox (talk) 00:31, 31 January 2011 (UTC)

Let's not make this about us or our views. If Evans' comment is notable it should be included. If not, not.   Will Beback  talk  05:29, 31 January 2011 (UTC)

W/regard to neo-(&theo-?)con "li-(Beck?)-itarianism"

I'm thinking of sourcing media mentions of Beck's position on the political spectrum and especially his quasi-libertarianism. This<-- blog piece gives interesting background to some theoconservative strains in conservative libertarianism but doesn't mention Beck by name (and is a blog). IAC be right back.--Hodgson-Burnett's Secret Garden (talk) 20:50, 24 January 2011 (UTC)

1.Fall 2008 Beck interview of then Libertarian Party Pres. candidate, Bob Barr:

[graphic]: Which American president said he believed that "the very heart and soul of conservatism is libertarianism?" C) Ronald Reagan.

 Q (Beck)     Now I have to tell you, not only do I agree with that[...], I think it goes beyond conservatives. I think the heart of every American is libertarian until they can benefit from the government. You know what I mean? Until -- until everybody is, like, oh...

Barr     It`s very corrupting, the power of government, to bring people in. To bring them back in. It takes a very strong mind to be able to resist that pressure. And most Republicans succumb.

 Q (Beck)     Do you think the problem I is -- with the Republicans, they got tied up into the compassionate conservative thing? [... ...] But you know, the problem with libertarians is it`s -- you guys -- I mean -- look. You seem like a reasonable guy, Bob. We`ve had several times that we have been able to talk, and I think I agree on many of your points of view, but then the Libertarian Party is so -- divided. I mean, you`ve got people -- the guy who introduced you at the convention was a guy for legalization of pot.

Barr     Yes. It indeed -- some people think, well, that the Libertarian Party, just paint it with one brush stroke. It is -- it is a very diverse party. [... ...]

 Q (Beck)     I`m talking about $54 trillion in Social Security, Medicare, Medicaid. One-third of everybody who lives here in Manhattan, one-third, currently living on Medicaid.

Barr     Actually, it`s even worse. If you calculate them all, project them all out, it`s over $100 trillion total. I mean, it is. It`s unimaginable. What you have to do is -- first of all, you have to do what George W. Bush, unfortunately, did not have the guts to do. And that is to do what you say you`re going to do. You have to tackle Social Security. You have to tackle Medicare and Medicaid. What do you is you institute, do everything you can, to immediately institute savings accounts that are credited against Social Security taxes as an initial step. You -- you then -- you take a look at who gets what, when they get it and start calculating it so that everybody, so that you don`t increase it every time there is a cost of living, or a raise in inflationary pressure. It just keeps -- it magnifies itself. But the most important thing is to start getting that money and empowering Americans to get that money into their control, into the free market.

 Q (Beck)     [... ...] Do you -- do you continue to subsidize things for farmers not to plant things? Do you keep a regulation on sugar, for instance?

Barr     Absolutely not.

 Q (Beck)     OK. I love that answer. How about Bear Stearns? Would you have backed bailing out Bear Stearns?

Barr     Absolutely not. [... ...]

 Q (Beck)     So how is it that Russia has a flat tax? How is it that the rest of the world is going to a flat tax and we`re not? We`re going the other way?

Barr     Well, for one thing, Steve Forbes wasn`t elected president several years ago. [... ...]

 Q (Beck)     I want to talk to you a little bit about foreign policy[.... ...] I`m arguing that we`re there now. Finish the job. Stabilize it as much as you can. Help those people stand on their own. Because you cannot pull out and let that be -- nature hates a vaccuum. [... ...] I was for the Patriot Act because you were the guy who got the sunsets in. I figure, if the sunsets are there, if they have to keep coming back every six months, if there`s a problem, I`m not giving them this power. I`m lending it to them with a certain end date. And I respected you because you put those in there. Now you`re saying, Patriot Act, I shouldn`t have done any of it.

Barr     Well, what happened, Glenn, was[.... .... ... ...] In every one of the instances the administration went back on its word. That is why I have been so strong in working to reform the Patriot Act. And I`ve come to the conclusion the best thing to do, Glenn, would be to get rid of it and look at those powers in the light of this year now, this year 2000 -- well, 2009, to see what we actually need. Some provisions in the Patriot Act have worked very well. The other provisions, though, such as the sneak and peak searches, where the government can come into your house and your business and search and seize and never tell you they`d been there. The national security letters and so forth. The government doesn`t need those powers, and they have, in fact, been abused.

 Q (Beck)     [... ...] Do you stand by the Minutemen, on the border?

Barr     Well, I think -- I think any citizen group that can get down there and prod our government into doing a much better job of protecting the border against illegal immigration has to be commended. And that would include them.

 Q (Beck)     So you -- you would not -- you wouldn`t call them -- I`m trying to remember what this administration has called them. [...V]igilantes, thugs, racists?

Barr     No. I`ve worked with them. I`ve had them, you know, when I had a radio show, had them on. These are simply citizens who care about protecting the sovereignty of this country and are willing to take their time and they`re not armed. They don`t arrest. They just monitor, to help protect the border against the tremendous incursion of illegals into this country. [... ...]

 Q (Beck)     [...T]he NAFTA superhighway. Do you believe that`s being built?

Barr     That`s part of it. They`re already moving through eminent domain to start taking land in Texas to do that?

 Q (Beck)     All that`s crazy talk. That`s crazy talk. It`s being built. [... ...] OK, Bob, I got to ask you a couple things. Libertarians are rights. They are all about rights. They are a small government. Let people manage it themselves. Let people make the decisions. How does -- I mean, I can understand it when it comes to, hey, heroin should be available everywhere. I understand it there. But when you come to something like abortion, a lot of libertarians say, "Excuse me. That should -- that is a right." You are -- I mean, you are one of the strongest guys on abortion out there. Voted yes on banning -- banning family planning on U.S. aid abroad, yes to federal crime harming a fetus while committing other crimes. Congratulations on that. Voted yes on banning partial-birth abortion, again, yes on banning transportation to minors to get an abortion. A lot of libertarians are not happy with you.

Barr     They may not be happy with me, but I`m in good company. There are a lot of pro-life libertarians. And they look at it much the same way, the libertarians, generally, as one of the fundamental tenants, the use of force to take a life should not be countless. I mean, that should be -- if there`s one thing that should be illegal it`s the taking of life by force without justification. And the same applies to the unborn fetus, which is a human being, human life, the same as it does to somebody -- I don`t know how old you are, but I`m 59 years old.

 Q (Beck)     Tell me about -- tell me about the -- the people in Texas, the polygamists. The state seemed to me to clearly overreach. I -- I am not for polygamy. Is polygamy OK? Should we have that as a law, and enforce it? Or not enforce that law?

Barr     I don`t condone it and support it, and I don`t think we ought to move in that direction. [... ...]

2.Mark Lilla in the NYRB:

Broke is a "sober...libertarian tract [in which...t]here is a call for minimal government, more federalism, a flat tax, balanced budget and term-limit amendments, stemming the growth of Social Security and Medicare payments, and serious cuts in defense spending."

3.Tim Cavanaugh in Reason magazine:

"[...T]he News Corp. chairman [Rubert Murdock] also gives a pretty good definition of libertarian thinking: 'Don't trust the government, don't trust me, just trust yourself.'

"That's Murdoch's definition of Glenn Beck, and while I don't know how well it describes Beck's position, it's not too bad as a shorthand for libertarianism."--Hodgson-Burnett's Secret Garden (talk) 22:32, 24 January 2011 (UTC)

4. Nat'nl Review's Jonah Goldberg terms Beck a "libertarian populist."--Hodgson-Burnett's Secret Garden (talk) 19:13, 10 February 2011 (UTC)

This scholarly paper (you can click to download in pdf) explains Beck's ideology, its sources in Skousen and its influence on the Tea Party. TFD (talk) 23:04, 24 January 2011 (UTC)

A large number of libertarians strongly oppose labeling beck one. I would suggest including the contentious nature of this. It isn't like the libertarian community is welcoming the guy with open arms. And frankly he is more Birch society than libertarian. 24.61.171.248 (talk) 00:31, 25 January 2011 (UTC)

Ranters on the fringes (and sometimes mainstream ones) always see a conspiracy afoot by their political opponents. (After all, they ARE out to get them, no paranoia necessary.) Then there is the tendency for serious thinkers to want to distance themselves from mere yahoos (on the center-right: Buckely vs. Birchers, probably a lot of Reason magazine writers these days vs. Montanans down at the feed store talking about "them awful gov'ment c'spiracies," etc.--?)--Hodgson-Burnett's Secret Garden (talk) 16:38, 26 January 2011 (UTC)

Sean Wilentz

When quoting Sean Wilentz, perhaps it would be more NPOV if some context is given by pointing out that he's a friend of the Clintons and wrote about George W. Bush with the title "The Worst President in History?" 71.203.125.108 (talk) 15:05, 29 January 2011 (UTC)

Disagree. Sean Wilentz is a prominent and respected historian commenting on Beck's accuracy as an historian, not Beck's interpretation of history. Beck gets his facts wrong - that is not a matter of opinion but a matter of fact. TFD (talk) 16:33, 29 January 2011 (UTC)

Agree, and furthermore Wilentz is given two prominent quotes regarding his opinion of Beck. This article is not Wilentz's view of Glenn Beck. That such a naturally hostile and by all appearances biased historian should be given such prominance gives those sections a decidedly anti-Beck slant to the article. By what reason should Wilentz have his view highlighted...twice? Arzel (talk) 17:30, 29 January 2011 (UTC)

You should learn to distinguish between facts and opinions. Beck's facts are wrong, while his opinions are merely outside the mainstream. It does not matter what historian comments on Beck's facts, the result will be the same. Beck gets his facts wrong. If you can find an historian who says that Beck gets his facts right, then please do so. By the way, since this is an issue of fact, there is no need to mention Wilentz in line. TFD (talk) 17:49, 29 January 2011 (UTC)

You might want to AGF. The New Yorker article is commentary, not reporting. We don't report opinion as fact, regardless if you think Beck is wrong. Furthermore, where is the secondary sourcing that would imply that Wilentz opinion is worthy of such prominence? He is given two lengthy quotes which serve only to attack Beck. It is clearly undue weight for this one person's view. Arzel (talk) 20:06, 29 January 2011 (UTC)

• The New Yorker article is commentary, not reporting.

On what basis are we making that determination?   Will Beback  talk  05:32, 31 January 2011 (UTC)

No, Beck is ignorant of history and a lot of ignorant people believe what he says. It is not that his opinions are wrong, but that his facts are wrong. But then facts are stupid things. TFD (talk) 00:55, 30 January 2011 (UTC)

That is a lot of anger, perhaps you should take a little wikibreak. I find it hard to believe you can edit in a neutral tone when you personally attack Beck and pretty much everyone that listens to him. Arzel (talk) 00:59, 30 January 2011 (UTC)

You might want to read Beck's statements about historical events and compare them with what your high school text book said. His writings present non-factual statements about historical events. One is entitled one's views, but not one's facts. TFD (talk) 01:05, 30 January 2011 (UTC)

I could really care less what Beck says. I don't watch him or listen to him. Regardless, my point was why is this person's opinion given prominence? Your response has been Beck is ignorant, perhaps you could respond to my question and leave the truth at the door. Arzel (talk) 01:13, 30 January 2011 (UTC)

It is not an opinion but a statement of fact. Beck gets his facts wrong. You don't watch his show? You should and see for yourself. TFD (talk) 01:31, 30 January 2011 (UTC)

I am glad you know the truth. Collect (talk) 01:33, 30 January 2011 (UTC)

Since there is an unwillingness to discuss my actual question, I have been bold and removed one of his quotes as undue weight while leaving the summary. No reason for this person to have multiple lengthy quotes in the article relative to any other person. Arzel (talk) 01:42, 30 January 2011 (UTC)

I see Andy reverted without any discussion. However, after examining the article I see that the second quote is an entire lifted paragraph of over 200 words. This is very likely a WP:COPYVIO and should not be included at length under any circumstance. Arzel (talk) 02:33, 30 January 2011 (UTC)

I thought that reverting after a contested 'bold' move was entirely normal Wikipedia procedure? Whatever....

As for copyvio's, would you accept that a summary of what Wilentz said, with a shorter quote, would get around this? I still think it needs to be included, to explain why Wilentz is saying what he is. AndyTheGrump (talk) 02:42, 30 January 2011 (UTC)

To the initial question, Sean Wilentz is relevant to Beck because many prominent academics have simply ignored him (rather than lending criticism or support). I wish there were more notable scholars addressing the accuracy/inaccuracy of Beck's contentions, so that we could include a range of their conclusions, but for the time being Wilentz is one of the few that have done so in a reliable national publication. Moreover, I don’t believe his short quotation violates WP:COPYVIO, which primarily deals with uncited plagiarism – not attributed and referenced remarks.  Redthoreau -- (talk) 05:05, 30 January 2011 (UTC)

Very few scholars will comment on Dr. Beck's scholarship because he does not publish his theories in peer-reviewed journals or books in the university and academic press. We have the same issue with global warming, the moon landing hoax, etc. Wilentz only commented on Beck because he writes about people like Beck as an object of study rather than as an historian. TFD (talk) 05:15, 30 January 2011 (UTC)

"Sean Wilentz is a prominent and respected historian commenting on Beck's accuracy as an historian"
Does there need to be an explanation for how this is undue? Perhaps a juxtaposition:
"John Wilmerding is a prominent and respected art historian commenting on Beck's accuracy as an art historian"
Beck is not a historian, and does not claim to be a historian, so should not be adjudged to the standards of a historian. If he was speaking on behalf of the historical community for Beck, then his words would have weight, but since they are his and only representing his views they aren't worth mentioning here.
Besides Wilentz's "prominence" is nothing compared to the likes of someone like Wilmerding, and his opinion alone doesn't mean anything to this article. The weight of a political editorial is not determined solely on someone being an Ivy League professor, and his critique wanders into postmodernist territory in the conjectures he makes without evidence.AerobicFox (talk) 05:25, 30 January 2011 (UTC)

Wilentz is a respected historian and able to comment on the accuracy of Beck's "facts" about history. TFD (talk) 05:38, 30 January 2011 (UTC)

Doing respectable work and being respected are two different things. I have not seen any comment addressing the accuracy of Becks facts, just comments comparing him to a laundry list of shady people.

An obvious indicator of whether a historian should be addressing certain facts that Beck has brought up, is whether or not those facts are even present in this article. In other words:

If Beck's historical views were notable enough to warrant inclusion in this article then critiques of those views would be relevant. Since his views are not mentioned, including criticism on them is clearly an example of undue weight, since you are putting criticism of a subject ahead of the subject itself. Short of an adequate section detailing Beck's views there should be no criticism of them. Even the Flat Earthers and the AIDs denialists have their views explained, so don't even begin thinking of how justifying including criticism of something not even represented in the article.

I understand you are trying to improve the article, but you should reevaluate what you have actually done. Presented a one-sided criticism of the subject without even presenting the subject's defense of itself, this completely violates Wikipedia's neutrality policies, and should highlight to you that there are problems with your editing.(I apologize for sounding rude) AerobicFox (talk) 06:19, 30 January 2011 (UTC)

AerobicFox, Becks views are mentioned though (and should even be expanded upon).  Redthoreau -- (talk) 06:26, 30 January 2011 (UTC)

Beck's views on history are not mentioned, at least not as far as I can see in the section that Wilentz critiques them. What I see is Becks accusations against present day progressives followed by a historian commenting on Beck's version of history, and explaining the reader for the first time how Beck views history. This is probably overlooked due to the fact that those familiar with the subject may just assume that it is covered above, but Beck does not talk about his version of history in that section, so move Wilentz's critique on his history to where Beck does talk about it, or add in Beck's view of history. AerobicFox (talk) 06:38, 30 January 2011 (UTC)

AerobicFox, although Beck is not a credentialed "historian", he does view himself as an autodidactic one. In fact, I'd say at least half of his programming (which I do watch) deals with his (re)interpretation of history, which he contends has been hidden/bastardized by nefarious "Progressives". For months Beck even dedicated every Friday show entirely to "reclaiming" what he purports to be the historical wisdom of the American founding fathers. Now if Beck frequently critiqued art as well from a historical stand point, as he does ---> here, then perhaps the view of a prominent art historian would also be relevant to the article.  Redthoreau -- (talk) 06:08, 30 January 2011 (UTC)

But there is no explanation of these views, so what I am left to conclude is that a historian who is active in politics is attacking Beck from a perspective that he has expertise in. Explain the Founding Fridays, and what Beck teaches, and how he researches, and what his critics say. Do not just introduce excerpts from multiple unrelated critics and assemble then into as most of a coherent topic as possible. Either give full coverage to the topic of Beck's historical beliefs and teachings, or don't give any. Only including one critical side is not okay for BLP's.AerobicFox (talk) 06:24, 30 January 2011 (UTC)

AF, yes there is ... see "4 Political views & 4.1 Countering progressivism" (these sections could even be expanded, especially Political Views). If you believe material on his views is missing, then by all means please add it (with references) at anytime.  Redthoreau -- (talk) 06:34, 30 January 2011 (UTC)

This is the only historical statement Beck makes in that section:

"According to Beck, the progressive ideas of men such as John Dewey, Herbert Croly, and Walter Lippmann, influenced the Presidencies of Theodore Roosevelt and Woodrow Wilson; eventually becoming the foundation for President Franklin D. Roosevelt’s New Deal."

^^That is actually not that inaccurate.

The article then proceeds with this statement:

Glenn Beck is trying to give viewers a version of American history that is supposedly hidden. Supposedly, all we historians — left, right and center — have been doing for the past 100 years is to keep true American history from you. And that true American history is what Glenn Beck is teaching. It's a version of history that is beyond skewed. But of course, that's what Beck expects us to say. He lives in a kind of Alice in Wonderland world, where if people who actually know the history say what he's teaching is junk, he says, 'That's because you're trying to hide the truth.

I do not see anything that the above statement could possibly be referring to as I see no info on Beck's view of history other then the first statement I gave.AerobicFox (talk) 06:42, 30 January 2011 (UTC)

The theory that progressivism developed into the New Deal is not acceptaed by any serious historians. In fact it developed into modern American conservatism. TFD (talk) 15:05, 31 January 2011 (UTC)

Give me a break. You think all of America is conservative relatively speaking. Arzel (talk) 15:42, 31 January 2011 (UTC)

No I think that America is liberal. TFD (talk) 16:02, 31 January 2011 (UTC)

America is liberal compared to the third and second world, but conservative compared to Europe and Canada. The actual population is split between conservative and liberal, so these types of labels are meaningless.AerobicFox (talk) 16:12, 31 January 2011 (UTC)

"The theory that progressivism developed into the New Deal is not acceptaed by any serious historians. In fact it developed into modern American conservatism."
Please find a source for that as I believe Progressivism developed into Progressivism, and not Conservatism, and has almost always been associated with the left except in odd exceptions like Theodore Roosevelt. Also, the New Deal is often seen as a Progressive legislation, the fact that an infobox in the article New Deal is stating that the article is a part of a series on Progressivism should make that clear.AerobicFox (talk) 16:10, 31 January 2011 (UTC)

Actually, you need a source to say that progressivism developed into liberalism. And yes America is liberal - free speech, no monarchy, crazy extemist religious groups, no laws against pornography, right to bear arms. People who have no class, no breeding, no intelligence and hate the elites are not Tories, sorry. TFD (talk) 01:06, 1 February 2011 (UTC)

"Actually, you need a source to say that progressivism developed into liberalism."

Is that what you interpreted from my saying "associated with the left"? Their association is already sourced in the article on Progressivism which you should read if you believe it developed into Conservatism. I don't need a source to disprove that Progressivism didn't evolve into conservatism, and I don't know what would even drive such an unexplainable statement.

Liberal and conservative is relative. Relative to Europe we are conservative, relative to China we are liberal. In our country we are not wholly governed by either side, and we enjoy the aspects of both philosophies. This is the same for other countries as well, but perhaps not as much.

I hope I'm not going to continue arguing this unless you can find a statement from an RS contesting the statement Beck made above. You probably just made some sort of ridiculous slip-up with the statement, so unless you defend it I will just assume you were just spacing out, or drunk.AerobicFox (talk) 05:07, 1 February 2011 (UTC)

Progressivism did not develop into liberalism. No serious historian has ever argued that it did. TFD (talk) 05:12, 1 February 2011 (UTC)

This is exactly what I said:

"has almost always been associated with the left"

Why are you arguing this?

"Progressivism did not develop into liberalism."

"develop into" and "be associated with" are not the same. I hope you understand that what I am arguing is that they are closely aligned on many issues, and typically Progressives are seen as farther left then democrats. Progressivism and Liberalism are two very different philosophies, and Progressivism shouldn't be called the same as Coversatism or Liberalism, so you are incorrect here if you are assuming it must be one or the other.

If you aren't familiar with modern Progressivism then you can go here Progressivism in the United States, and you can see what it is. Until then please stop trying to portray my arguments, I have no concern for "winning" this I just don't like my my words being intentionally or unintentionally misrepresented which you are doing heavily.AerobicFox (talk) 05:49, 1 February 2011 (UTC)

Let me clarity what I wrote. The Progressivism of c. 1900-1920 did not develop into modern liberalism, either the New Deal or the views of people who today describe themselves as progressive. No historians claim that it did, yet the claim is continually made by Beck. TFD (talk) 11:33, 1 February 2011 (UTC)

"The Progressivism of c. 1900-1920 did not develop into modern liberalism,"

If Beck has argued that then please bring up an RS. I certainly have not argued that and I doubt anybody ever has. I believe Beck has argued that Progressives are hijacking the left, but doesn't believe that Progressivism is the same as Liberalism, and if you do believe this is what he argues then you need a source, and then I will believe you.

"either the New Deal"

The New Deal is often considered a Progressive piece of legislature. The Template:Progressivism even lists it as a Progressive piece of legislation.

"or the views of people who today describe themselves as progressive"

They were strongly influenced by the Progressives before them. I don't get what the point you are trying to make here. Early Progressives evolved into modern progressives, and every historian would agree with this. Modern Progressives didn't just fall from the sky. Progressivism is a movement that has been developing, and evolving since it's inception, and the early Progressives did evolve into the modern Progressives and share many similar fundamental views.AerobicFox (talk) 17:14, 1 February 2011 (UTC)

Aerobic, most historians actually don't agree with your analysis there. Largely because people who aren't really progressives are being labeled as such by guys like beck. Also the line of causation isn't at all clear. Just because I might happen to agree with things Epictetus said a couple of thousand years ago, that doesn't mean my ideas come from Epictetus. It is much more complicated than you are making it out to be, and frankly, the Glenn Beck article isn't the appropraite place for this issue to be resolved. What you are arguing is what Beck says, and therefore, those ideas should be present in the article. But we shouldn't be in the business here of validating or attacking the subject's beliefsBlennGeck (talk) 15:10, 10 February 2011 (UTC)

Section Break

Let's get this back on target. I don't see a need for Wilentz to be given two prominent quotes in this article. He is decidely anti-Beck, and it is undue weight to give one person's point of view in this article, regardless of any other considerations. I removed one quote (leaving the inline text) and it was restored. I removed the second longer quote (leaving the inline text) to try and establish some weight balance (not to mention that I think it is borderline copyright vio). Again it was restored. Collect modified the quote to the specific aspects related to the inline text (which I think is fine, if still a little weighty). However, the end result of this seems to have resulted in the page being locked. My original question has never been answered (why does this person deserve to prominent quotes?) and has degraded into an argument that Beck is wrong about history. So...let's get this back to the primary discussion. Why does Wilentz's opinion deserve such weight? What is the problem with Collect's compromise? Arzel (talk) 05:36, 2 February 2011 (UTC)

I maintain that Beck's views of history should be presented before being criticized. Since they are not presented at all, they should not be criticized at this time per WP:NPOV and WP:BLP. The fact this is even brought up highlights gross flaws with this article with Wiki policy. AerobicFox (talk) 06:59, 2 February 2011 (UTC)

Both locations seem appropriate, but I'm thinking the quoting might be a bit excessive. In both cases, Wilentz's argument seems to be summarized well without any need for quoting. Sχeptomaniac^{χαιρετε} 17:00, 2 February 2011 (UTC)

Edit request from Cymru.lass, 2 February 2011

{{edit protected}} Will someone please remove {{pp-semi-blp|small=yes}} from the article? It's causing it to appear in Category:Wikipedia pages with incorrect protection templates --- c y m r u . l a s s ^{(talk me, stalk me)} 04:56, 2 February 2011 (UTC)

 Removed — Martin (MSGJ · talk) 16:00, 2 February 2011 (UTC)

Conservative Libertarian

I know libertarians don't like to hear it, but Glenn Beck describes himself as a conservative libertarian. I'm changing the lede to reflect what he calls himself, as he's the only one who can express his exact ideology or label. PokeHomsar (talk) 23:28, 2 February 2011 (UTC)

OK, this article is open only to admins to edit, so please change to reflect what he calls himself. PokeHomsar (talk) 23:29, 2 February 2011 (UTC)

Firstly, we'd need a source that verified that, and secondly, I'm not sure that Beck's description of his ideology is necessarily the only valid criteria. Do others describe him as a 'Conservative Libertarian'? Again, we'd need sources. AndyTheGrump (talk) 23:49, 2 February 2011 (UTC)

It can say he claims that's what he calls himself, but unless the meaning of the word libertarian has changed, than it should not be used to describe him. Soxwon (talk) 00:25, 3 February 2011 (UTC)

Self-descriptions are not exempt from verifiability and secondary sourcing requirements. That being said, I imagine it's not hard to find both sources to verify it, and sources that criticize Beck's appropriation of the term. //Blaxthos ( t / c ) 03:38, 3 February 2011 (UTC)

Glenn Beck could be a reliable source for the statement that he considers himself a "libertarian conservative", in the same way that this bloke was a reliable source for the statement that he considered himself "Emperor of these United States" and "Protector of Mexico". A statement about what Beck says is not an assertion that it is true. AndyTheGrump (talk) 03:46, 3 February 2011 (UTC)

Libertarianism is not a philosophy. Glenn Beck is a conservative who believes in maximizing individual freedom. Broadly speaking Libertarians do believe in maximizing individual liberty, but on all other fronts they are definitely very different to Beck which is why he has not stated the he is a libertarian. An accurate descriptor would be that

"Glenn Beck is a conservative who agrees with the libertarian's advocacy of individual liberty"

Or something to clarify that this is the part of Libertarianism that Glenn Beck agrees with, and that the label of libertarian would not otherwise apply to Glenn Beck.AerobicFox (talk) 05:17, 3 February 2011 (UTC)

If "Libertarianism is not a philosophy" then how can anyone make a statement about what libertarians believe? In any case, it isn't our job to attempt to interpret Beck's political philosophy (if indeed he has one), but to reflect what others say about it. AndyTheGrump (talk) 05:22, 3 February 2011 (UTC)

"Glenn Beck is a conservative who agrees with the libertarian's advocacy of individual liberty...except with regards to abortion, gay rights, and other things he labels 'progressive'." See, I can do original research too! This is why you need reliable sources rather than your opinion. Soxwon (talk) 05:27, 3 February 2011 (UTC)

If "Libertarianism is not a philosophy" then how can anyone make a statement about what libertarians believe?

Libertarianism is a bunch of different philosophies and outlooks with not much in common other than a belief that people should be able to do what they want, or that government needs to be reduced to its bare minimal form. Please see Libertarianism#Libertarian_philosophies to get a better handle on how you cannot group Libertarianism into a political philosophy.

"Glenn Beck is a conservative who agrees with the libertarian's advocacy of individual liberty...except with regards to abortion"

Libertarianism is not antipro-abortion(editing what should have been clearly seen as a typo). There are two camps within the libertarian community, one that feels that a women should have the right to do with her body, and the other which feels that fetuses have individual rights and that killing them is similar to murdering a born human. There is no qualification to be pro-choice to be a libertarian, and many Libertarians are not pro-choice.

"gay rights"

In response to whether he would be for gay marriage he stated that if it didn't break his leg or pick his pocket he is ok with it.

"See, I can do original research too!"

I see you do not understand Beck, Libertarianism, or Wikipedia policy. Please respond next time without the sarcasm as you just made a series of off-topic and incorrect statements.

If nobody has any argument for why the statement of "Glenn Beck is a conservative who agrees with the libertarian principles of increasing individual liberty and minimizing government" then it should go into the article. You may disagree that banning abortion is not supportive of individual rights, but that is only one view, and one which shouldn't be debated over in Wikipedia.AerobicFox (talk) 06:16, 3 February 2011 (UTC)

I stated that Glenn Beck was anti-abortion not that libertarianism was anti-abortion, and that his stance on that issue was contrary to libertarianism (pro-choice is a fairly common tenant of libertarianism). You continue to push original research instead of providing citations for the contentious statement you wish to insert. Please provide reliable sources. Soxwon (talk) 06:25, 3 February 2011 (UTC)

Please re-read my comment to understand that having anti-abortion views is not contrary to libertarianism, and try to do so before telling me that you have been misunderstood. Libertarianism is not pro-abortion, it is not anti-abortion.

"I understand policy far better than you it seems, for you continue to push original research instead of providing citations for the contentious statement you wish to insert."

Taking fragments of different sources to portray your own view is OR, like what most of this article(and many articles on Wikipedia) have done. If you want to accurately reflect the subject then you need a range of sources which is not present here. Since you have been editing this article I assume that you do not understand this.AerobicFox (talk) 06:46, 3 February 2011 (UTC)

If you want to accurately reflect the subject then you need a range of sources which is not present here. ...If I don't understand the importance of sourcing to accurately the portray the subject than why would I link to WP:RS? I do indeed understand that you need a variety of sources which is why I'm ASKING YOU TO PROVIDE THEM instead of providing your opinion. Soxwon (talk) 06:54, 3 February 2011 (UTC)

"I do indeed understand that you need a variety of sources which is why I'm ASKING YOU TO PROVIDE THEM instead of providing your opinion"

I have not been editing this article as long as you and followed WP:OR then you would have already provided a range of sources. This article is an example that you and the other editors here have not successfully edited according to WP:OR, and that you are coming from no position to tell others how to. If you have seen Beck describe his views then you understand what I am saying above. If you have not seen Beck describe his views then you should defer to the judgment of editors who have unless you have an RS saying otherwise. I am citing what Beck has said many times to clarify his views, and he is an RS for his views.AerobicFox (talk) 07:04, 3 February 2011 (UTC)

Striking non-productive comment. Let's get back on track. AerobicFox (talk) 07:29, 3 February 2011 (UTC)

Here is a source that I found:Glenn Beck, gay marriage advocate? Washington Post, stating:

"Unlike many religious conservatives, Beck takes a libertarian approach to the gay marriage issue, even breaking with the teaching of his own church:" AerobicFox (talk) 07:39, 3 February 2011 (UTC)

So I know this is not a reliable source, but I think the below description is accurate.

"So we just assume, when Mr. Beck says "Libertarian" or "libertarian" he simply chooses to ignore that there is an actual political party that lobbies under that title. He's not the only one, right?"-www.examiner.com/libertarian-in-portland/is-glenn-beck-a-libertarian-not-so-fast

There's some analysis over how libertarian he is giving him a D+ equaling libertarian leanings which I think is a fair view. Thoughts?AerobicFox (talk) 08:17, 3 February 2011 (UTC)

I'm just going to say this: I think that the way it is presented in the article (he describes himself as...) is the best possible way b/c it is indisputable and easily cited. To prove it, as you have noticed, requires shoddy sourcing and is dangerously close to WP:OR. I think that the readers can decide for themselves whether or not the description is true. Soxwon (talk) 18:53, 3 February 2011 (UTC)

I agree, "he describes himself as" is a good way to put it.AerobicFox (talk) 23:31, 3 February 2011 (UTC)

Have someone add it then. PokeHomsar (talk) 21:40, 13 February 2011 (UTC)

Egypt

Beck's stance on egypt has attracted a lot of negative feedback from other conservatives and from many liberals. This is probably worth mentioning, since guys like Bill Kristol are turning against him:

http://www.weeklystandard.com/articles/stand-freedom_541404.html?page=1

http://swampland.blogs.time.com/2011/02/05/how-long-glenn-beck-how-long/

http://www.theatlanticwire.com/opinions/view/opinion/Is-Glenn-Beck-Digging-His-Own-Grave-With-Egypt-Commentary-6889BlennGeck (talk) 00:20, 8 February 2011 (UTC)

I think we'll probably do as well to wait until we see what further sources say on this one, though I've got to admire Joe Klien's use of language in his Time blog: "...the paranoid-messianic rodeo clown"![10] AndyTheGrump (talk) 00:45, 8 February 2011 (UTC)

CNN covered this on John King last night (http://johnkingusa.blogs.cnn.com/2011/02/04/kagan-on-glenn-beck-panic-mongering/?iref=allsearch), and the Kristol-Beck spat was covered today on CNN just 45 minutes ago. I'd say this is a big story worthy of inclusion. BlennGeck (talk) 20:58, 8 February 2011 (UTC)

More places covering this:

http://theweek.com/article/index/211897/are-conservatives-turning-on-glenn-beck

http://www.usnews.com/opinion/blogs/scott-galupo/2011/02/02/glenn-becks-egypt-protest-theories-show-hes-finally-lost-his-marbles

http://voices.washingtonpost.com/right-turn/2011/02/fox_like_msnbc_learns_the_hard.html

http://www.politico.com/blogs/bensmith/0211/Kristol_rebukes_hysterical_Beck_conservatives_on_Egypt.html?showall

http://www.salon.com/news/glenn_beck/?story=/politics/war_room/2011/02/08/beck_kristol_fight

http://www.thejewishweek.com/blogs/political_insider/egypt_miller_israels_fear_arab_democracy_kristol_blasts_beck_and_moreBlennGeck (talk) 21:04, 8 February 2011 (UTC)

Try reading WP:RS especially about using opinion pieces and how valued blogs are as sources. Collect (talk) 21:45, 8 February 2011 (UTC)

I don't think I'd call the CNN broadcast a blog - we can probably wait for more mainstream sources though. I'm sure they are coming... AndyTheGrump (talk) 21:47, 8 February 2011 (UTC)

The CNN link above is a video opinion piece - citable at best as opinion and only with a text link. WP:BLP requires better sourcing than using a video as a source when the people involved make it clear they are dealing in opinions only. Collect (talk) 22:10, 8 February 2011 (UTC)

The video link was part of their regular programming. John King was reporting on the dispute and giving analysts an opportunity to voice their opinion. This is blowing up huge. It is a very big deal, and Beck may well get fired over it. And today they mentioned it in their regular newscast on CNN. This is clearly newsworthy. You have Kristol basically attacking BEck as a nut for his comments and people are picking it up. What about the week, that is a legitimate news magazine. BlennGeck (talk) 22:20, 8 February 2011 (UTC)

And again read about how WP treats video sources in general. WP is NOT "the news." WP is an "encyclopedia." And , amazingly enough, opinions on all WP articles, and especially on BLPs, must be cited as opinions of those opining. Simple. Collect (talk) 22:31, 8 February 2011 (UTC)

I never said they shouldn't be labeled as opinions. But these opinions are being reported on both by CNN and the Week. They are also being addressed in high profile opinion columns in newsweek and elsewhere. What is more Kristol himself penned a column attacking beck. This is a significant development in Beck's career. And to argue otherwise, or to mislabel a CNN report as a video blog (it was aired on CNN, not simply placed on the internet), seems a little bit like you are using wikipedia policy to protect the Beck article from negative stories. BlennGeck (talk) 23:06, 8 February 2011 (UTC)

Kindly read my posts. I said it was a video opinion piece. Which it is. Without a transcript for people to determine precisely what is in it. Next remember that material in a BLP must be reasonably relevant to the BLP. Often opinions of others are of only marginal relevance, and of minimal weight, in the actual BLP. Then recall WP:PIECE - the article must, at some point, be looked at as a whole. When parts get expanded far beyond reason, the article suffers. Lastly, there is significant negative commentary about Beck in this article. How much more ought be added in your opinion? Collect (talk) 23:49, 8 February 2011 (UTC)

Given that Glenn Beck is himself a source for nothing but 'opinion', the opinions of others are clearly worthy of at least discussing with regard to whether they merit inclusion in the article. Particularly when the negative opinions in question seem to be coming from those who have previously supported Beck. And there is no obligation on Wikipedia to balance negative and positive opinion in an article - if what was already in the article reflected a balance of the weight of opinion about him, and he now only receives negative comments, the balance must change to reflect it. I'm inclined to wait a day or two more over this, to see how it pans out, but if it does attract further commentary we will have to reassess the article, with the object of at least noting the situation. AndyTheGrump (talk) 00:01, 9 February 2011 (UTC)

Alas - your opinion is noted - but not rooted in WP:BLP policy. Sources offering criticism must meet WP:RS and be clearly labe;ed as "opinion." The tendency of making "critisicm" sections in BLPs be the dominant sections is a bit unfortunate every time. And as editors we ought to specifically avoid any "value judgements" about the topic - the task is to write an encyclopedia article, not expound on any of our own beliefs. Collect (talk) 00:08, 9 February 2011 (UTC)

Fine, I agree that opinion should be marked as such - I never suggested otherwise. And as for 'expounding beliefs', you wrote "there is significant negative commentary about Beck in this article. How much more ought be added in your opinion?" This looked to me like a suggestion that we should make value judgements based on our assessment of whether we believed the article was negative or positive overall - not something that WP:BLP requires.

To be clear, I am not suggesting anything needs to be added to the article based on the sources so far presented. I am instead suggesting that if they are part of a wider trend, we will need to report this, rather than dismissing it without proper debate. AndyTheGrump (talk) 00:17, 9 February 2011 (UTC)

WP:NPOV however does require that we make sure that a reasonable balance is attained in any article with proper weight given. Again - read the extensive discussions on various noticeboards about "criticism of" articles and sections. Collect (talk) 00:21, 9 February 2011 (UTC)

No. WP:NPOV requires we do not select our sources to introduce our own bias, or use them in a way that introduces such bias. If the sources on the whole are negative, then so should the article be. Or are you suggesting that an article on Pol Pot should have equal measures of negative and positive commentary? AndyTheGrump (talk) 00:28, 9 February 2011 (UTC)

Editing from a neutral point of view (NPOV) means representing fairly, proportionately, and as far as possible without bias, all significant views that have been published by reliable sources. All Wikipedia articles and other encyclopedic content must be written from a neutral point of view. NPOV is a fundamental principle of Wikipedia and of other Wikimedia projects. This policy is non-negotiable and all editors and articles must follow it. So "opinions" which represent single people or groups should clearly not be over-weighted in any article, and especially not in a WP:BLP. Collect (talk) 00:34, 9 February 2011 (UTC)

Exactly what I was suggesting. Making "How much more ought be added in your opinion?" an irrelevant comment - our opinions don't matter. If the 'significant views' change, then so should the article. The (admittedly somewhat poorly sourced) references are suggesting that the 'views' of those who have supported Beck in the past are changing. If this is demonstrated in reliable sources, the article will need to be revised to reflect it. AndyTheGrump (talk) 00:42, 9 February 2011 (UTC)

Enough Collect, these sources are allowed per WP:BLP: Some news organizations host online columns that they call blogs, and these may be acceptable as sources so long as the writers are professionals and the blog is subject to the newspaper's full editorial control. Therefore, the politico, CNN, and other such links are valid. Soxwon (talk) 00:47, 9 February 2011 (UTC)

Please stop quoting me the wiki guidelines. Nothing I am suggesting violates NPOV.

First, those aren't poorly sourced. The Week and CNN are reliable sources. The opinion pieces were included to demonstrate that high profile news analysts are discussing the dispute between Kristol and Beck. Second, I never suggested we simply put peoples' opinions out there as fact. I am just suggesting that Kristol's reaction to Beck's theory about Egypt is worthy of inclusion (as is Beck's response). BlennGeck (talk) 00:50, 9 February 2011 (UTC)

For the last time, the CNN piece appeared on CNN television during John King's show, then they posted that online. The 3 PM newscast on CNN today covered the Kristol-Beck dispute as well. BlennGeck (talk) 00:52, 9 February 2011 (UTC)

And again - the King segment is "commentary" aka "opinion." A text transcript would be usable RS for the "opinions" stated in it. Collect (talk) 01:23, 9 February 2011 (UTC)

Enough! The WP, Politico, and US News pieces are all useable sources. Is the CNN piece really that important? Soxwon (talk) 03:07, 9 February 2011 (UTC)

RS isn't everything. Is this worthy of mention or is it recentism? I haven't even looked at the sources but the publishers are typically RS but ow much space (if any) does one flurry of news deserve? Like I said, I haven't even gone through them so maybe it is massively deserving of note but my experience on this article says that most news stories are usually not.Cptnono (talk) 04:04, 9 February 2011 (UTC)

I would say it is newsworthy, CNN has covered it multiple times. Major commentators like Joe Klein have noted both Beck's statements and the spat between Beck and Klein. What is more, Beck has discussed it himself for three days straight on his radio program and his television program. And for the last time, that isn't a video blog, that was John King reporting on the controversy and allowing analysts to weigh in during his normal evening broadcast. And as I said, yesterday during the 3pm hard news, CNN covered the Kristol-Beck dispute. BlennGeck (talk) 14:08, 9 February 2011 (UTC)

Here is the transcript from CNN newsroom yesterday. That is a hard news show, reporting on the dispute between Kristol and Beck: http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/1102/08/cnr.07.html BlennGeck (talk) 14:26, 9 February 2011 (UTC)

But now here's another take on Egypt. And this is all about the view from over here and Glenn Beck. Have you heard about this today? Glenn Beck has been doling out an elaborate stream of conspiracy theories. And now a fellow conservative is calling him out for that. And that is news.

Sure reads like commentary from here.

Sarah Palin just gave an interview. She took a dig at the president saying that his 3:00 a.m. phone call came and it went to voice-mail, but -- you know, a little witty line, but it's not clear what her substantive critique really is there. It was Newt Gingrich who has sort of gone the farthest. He told John King that the White House has been amateurish and sent mixed messages. is "hard news" to anyone?

And Doesn't have a clue about those realities. Brooke, I'm sure you're shocked that this too is now being infused with politics. is "hard news"? Sorry, I rather think it is commentary chit-chat at best.

But is "CNN Newsroom" a "hard news" show even according to CNN? Nope. It has "analysis from experts on the issues being covered." Last I looked "analysis" is the same as "commentary." YMMV. Collect (talk) 14:55, 9 February 2011 (UTC)

"I would say it is newsworthy, CNN has covered it multiple times. "

WP:NOTNEWS This seems like one of a great many spats that Glenn Beck gets in to. For comparison I do not see the Anthony Weiner dispute anywhere in this article; is there some reason you believe this is more notable than that one? In that dispute Beck made an entire website to attack Weiner, and there was far more coverage.AerobicFox (talk) 16:59, 9 February 2011 (UTC)

Are you serious? I give up. This is most certainly a notable controversy. Enjoy your echo chamber. BlennGeck (talk) 18:34, 9 February 2011 (UTC)

Collect, you are being selective. JUst because a show includes some analysis from experts, that doesn't make the whole show non-hard news (nor does the use of casual language by reporters). Here is the full description of CNN News Room from wikipedia:

"CNN Newsroom is an American news program on CNN/US.

Broadcasting throughout the week, Newsroom features live and taped news reports, in addition to analysis from experts on the issues being covered, and headlines throughout each hour. The program is the standard "brand" for general rolling-news programming for the network, originating from their headquarters in Atlanta, Georgia. It debuted in September 2006 replacing"CNN Live Today," "Live From," "CNN Saturday," "CNN Saturday Night," "CNN Sunday" and "CNN Sunday Night."[1]

CNN Newsroom airs continuously for eight hours starting from 9:00am ET until 5:00pm ET on weekdays and since the start of September 2008, the program has employed a single-presenter format on such days. On weekends, it airs at various times with late-night editions.[2]

The program shares the same name of an earlier CNN program, debuted in 1992, that was shown by teachers in schools."

It is a news show. I read the transcript and watched the broadcast, that was a report on the Beck-Kristol controversy. It is a reach to argue otherwise. BlennGeck (talk) 18:39, 9 February 2011 (UTC)

Aerobic it is notable because he is fighting with conservative figures like Bill Kristol, who basically said he is akin to the birchers who marginalized themselves int he 60s. This is clearly significant, and the CNN coverage of it made that very point. And that isn't the only place its been covered. What is more, if you bother to read the piece by Klein and others, they say conservatives have said off the record they are fed up with Beck. BlennGeck (talk) 18:56, 9 February 2011 (UTC)

I'll be pithy. The "conservative" is a neocon who runs a conservative magazine that doesn't like Beck and has been saying so for quite some time.

The CNN program didn't even dedicate a segment to this "controversy", but rather a few lines inside of a segment.

This is another political play to try and portray the other side as having division among their ranks. There is "infighting" within the conservative and liberal movements, but not as much as political pundits attempt to portray. :This is more sensationalist than it is analysis, but if you believe this will be a big story nonetheless then you can wait for it to have some sort of consequences or get some traction and add it then.AerobicFox (talk) 07:26, 10 February 2011 (UTC)

Aerobic, now you are simply inserting your own point of view into the mix. I am not suggesting we take sides, just that we report on the dispute. You may not like CNN, but it is a reliable source, and that was indeed a segment (if you actually saw the broadcast you would certainly understand that). BlennGeck (talk) 14:34, 10 February 2011 (UTC)

I would just add that Glenn Beck himself has been responding to the controversy now for days (and by all means his responses should be included in this segment of the article). Also the Christian Science monitor has reported on it as well: http://www.csmonitor.com/USA/Politics/2011/0209/Egypt-protests-US-conservatives-divided-on-how-to-view-themBlennGeck (talk) 14:42, 10 February 2011 (UTC)

Also it appears in the Financial times and in an editorial in the Boston Pheonix:

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/e50fe5a8-3475-11e0-9ebc-00144feabdc0.html

http://thephoenix.com/Boston/news/115425-sarah-palin-wilts-as-glenn-beck-self-destructs/ BlennGeck (talk) 14:47, 10 February 2011 (UTC)

"You may not like CNN"

I do like CNN very much, and assuming that I don't because I don't approve of your edits is a bit much. I've never heard of the Christian Science monitor, the Financial Times, and have never read the Boston Phoenix. If this was a significant story then there would be more mainstream sources, and you would not have to scour the internet using google news for mentions of this outside of the USA Today, Wall Street Journal, New York Times, CBS news, and other more commonly seen news sources. Find a mainstream source that has given this dispute in depth coverage and discussed the lasting impact; that is not hard to find for genuinely significant events.AerobicFox (talk) 22:16, 10 February 2011 (UTC)

Actually Financial times and CSM are considered MSM. Soxwon (talk) 22:22, 10 February 2011 (UTC)

From our article on the FT: "The Financial Times (FT) is an international business newspaper. It is a morning daily newspaper published in London and printed in 23 cities around the world. Its primary rival is New York City-based The Wall Street Journal. The FT has a global print circulation of 390,121. Along with FT.com, it has an average daily readership of 1.9 million people worldwide (PwC audited figures, April 2010). FT.com has three million registered users and 206,892 digital subscribers, as well as 597,015 paid users (2 October 2010 to 4 January 2011). FT Chinese has more than 1.5 million registered users." AndyTheGrump (talk) 22:25, 10 February 2011 (UTC)

So you are seriously arguing that CNN, Christian Science Monitor, Time Magazine, etc aren't mainstream sources? Aerobic, you seem to be moving the goal post here. You asked for reliable sources. I provided them. Beck himself has covered this for days. BlennGeck (talk) 03:40, 11 February 2011 (UTC)

No one has said those publishers are not generally reliable. Please reread the discussion.Cptnono (talk) 03:45, 11 February 2011 (UTC)

Actually Aerobic Fox basically said they weren't mainstream enough, after asking for reliable sources. My point is, reliable sources were requested. Reliable sources were given. Then the aim was shifted to "mainstream sources". Of course CSM, CNN, and the Financial Times are all Mainstream and Reliable. But I guess that isn't enough now either. BlennGeck (talk) 03:49, 11 February 2011 (UTC)

Your new here, so let me help by providing you with WP:RS. It describes what a reliable source is and is not.--Jojhutton (talk) 03:55, 11 February 2011 (UTC)

Is this somehow intended to suggest that the FT, CNN etc aren't WP:RS? There may possibly be an issue of weight here, but to suggest there is a problem with sourcing is absurd. Personally, I'm convinced that the anti-Beck momentum in US conservative circles is increasing, so there is no need to worry too much about sourcing in any case - eventually, it will become blindingly-obvious to everyone that he is no longer an asset to the right, and he'll be unceremoniously dumped. This is just opinion of course, but I'm sufficiently convinced of its inevitability not to be over-concerned what goes into the article for now. I'll just stand back, and enjoy the fireworks... AndyTheGrump (talk) 04:06, 11 February 2011 (UTC)

Ok, just going to go ahead and say it. There are reliable sources here. Specifically these sources: [11], [12], and these: http://www.usnews.com/opinion/blogs/scott-galupo/2011/02/02/glenn-becks-egypt-protest-theories-show-hes-finally-lost-his-marbles

http://voices.washingtonpost.com/right-turn/2011/02/fox_like_msnbc_learns_the_hard.html

http://www.politico.com/blogs/bensmith/0211/Kristol_rebukes_hysterical_Beck_conservatives_on_Egypt.html?showall

Per [WP:BLPSPS]] Some news organizations host online columns that they call blogs, and these may be acceptable as sources so long as the writers are professionals and the blog is subject to the newspaper's full editorial control. I'm not sure why you all keep debating CNN when you have plenty of sources right there. Based on this, unless there are further objections to these source, I'll include the information in the article. Soxwon (talk) 05:16, 11 February 2011 (UTC)

ABC News Blog has reported on it as well: http://blogs.abcnews.com/thenote/2011/02/who-speaks-for-the-right-bill-kristol-takes-on-glenn-beck.html

BlennGeck (talk) 13:38, 11 February 2011 (UTC)

Jojhutton, I am familiar with that guideline and the major sources I posted were reliable. There were some that fit into the category of opinion or punditry as well, but those sources were listed simply to demonstrate the extent of the dialogue on the subject. That an opinion piece appeared on the subject in Time for example is significant. That it was addressed and debated on John King's evening program was significant. But sources such as The Christian Science Monitor and CNN Newsroom are most certainly reliable sources. BlennGeck (talk) 17:33, 11 February 2011 (UTC)

And it appears again on the CNN website: http://edition.cnn.com/2011/POLITICS/02/11/mann.egypt.us.republicans/?hpt=C2BlennGeck (talk) 17:39, 11 February 2011 (UTC)

Reliability is not the issue. For this to be included into the article it needs some sort of context to explain its significance such as "Glenn Beck was criticized for saying XXX, this will likely have a major impact of his career", or "A significant criticism of Beck came from his beliefs on XXX". You need a reliable source explaining why the criticism is significant, and not just making the criticism.

Suggestions:

• demonstrate breadth of coverage outside of political editorials
• an RS stating the criticism is significant
• in depth coverage

There are many ways you can show weight, and I am open to any ways you can demonstrate weight, but you have only addressed reliability at this time.AerobicFox (talk) 22:06, 11 February 2011 (UTC)

Are we just making up our own rules here? WP:WEIGHT specifically says that weight is conferred "in proportion to the prominence of each viewpoint" in reliable sources. It does not say anything about "explaining significance". I count at least a dozen reliable sources in this thread, from CNN to the Washington Post. You can certainly argue that you don't believe the material is encyclopedic or appropriate for a BLP, but please don't just go latching on to policy buzzwords and making things up. //Blaxthos ( t / c ) 05:29, 12 February 2011 (UTC)

Not sure if you are familiar with it or not, but WEIGHT is often misused per the wording in regards to prominence. Of course, then other standards point to weight meaning prominence so it is understandable that people get confused. I would say that common practice over the wording should be followed but it isn't needed. We have standards pointing to not focusing primarily on recent events and looking at noteworthiness as a whole of the subject. So if you can honestly say that this has some overbearing amount of prominence in the subject's life, then we should discuss it. If you even question it then think about being more conservative (no pun intended) in your editing instead of focusing on something that got mention in a couple days worth of news. Sensationalism is fun but this is not a blog.Cptnono (talk) 06:27, 12 February 2011 (UTC)

Not everything said on CNN has enough weight to be mentioned in Wikipedia, otherwise Wikipedia would just be an indiscriminate collection of CNN information, becoming a news source. What is the importance of this criticism? Did CNN say that this was important? If this had it's own segment, or had indepth coverage, of had clear and evident lasting significance then it would perfectly appropriate. Until then this is just random news fluff.AerobicFox (talk) 07:45, 12 February 2011 (UTC)

Are you deliberately ignoring the other sources? This is not just about the CNN source, this has been covered by multiple reliable sources and therefore by wikipedia standards is worthy of inclusion. Soxwon (talk) 08:12, 12 February 2011 (UTC)

• I don't have an opinion on this issue in general but while reading that thread I saw someone assert that WP:BLP does not allow the use of videos without transcripts. Neither that policy nor WP:V forbid the use of videos as sources. WP:IRS does say this: However, audio, video, and multimedia materials that have been recorded then broadcast, distributed, or archived by a reputable third-party may also meet the necessary criteria to be considered reliable source. Like text sources, media sources must be produced by a reliable third-party and be properly cited. Additionally, an archived copy of the media must exist. It is useful but by no means necessary for the archived copy to be accessible via the Internet. So a broadcaster with a reputation for reliability, like CNN, is an adequate source assuming the video is archived somewhere. Note that some material on news channels may actually be opinion pieces, so care is still required when using them.   Will Beback  talk  08:23, 12 February 2011 (UTC)

This is a list of growing sources. Beck continues to discuss the subject himself. And its significance is explained by the sources. It represents both a split within the conservative movement, and major republican figure (figures if Joe Klein is to be believed) are turning against beck. This isn't a case of recentism. By any measure, for a conservative pundit, this is significant. And as others have pointed out, this isn't just about cnn. Please see all the sources I posted. BlennGeck (talk) 13:33, 12 February 2011 (UTC)

Another source, the LA Times: http://www.latimes.com/entertainment/news/la-et-onthemedia-20110212,0,7125172.columnBlennGeck (talk) 13:33, 12 February 2011 (UTC)

"It represents both a split within the conservative movement, and major republican figure (figures if Joe Klein is to be believed) are turning against beck."

Is this your view or the sources? And if this was the sources, did they go in detail to explain this view(did it even have a segment/section devoted to it) or was this just stated as part of routine coverage.

"Are you deliberately ignoring the other sources?"

Yes as you have not stated the importance of the other sources, so I have nothing to day about them. A recent spur of widespread coverage doesn't make up for a lack of in depth coverage. If you believe a source here clearly demonstrates the significance of Beck's views on Egypt then point out what it is saying and direct me there. To be uber clear as to my position, widespread coverage does not equal significance, the coverage has to either say what's going on is significant or demonstrate it some other way, a source simply mentioning something does not make that something significant.AerobicFox (talk) 20:04, 12 February 2011 (UTC)

1. Yes, many of the sources say this represents a split among conservatives. Please read them. Whether it was simply stated or given an entire section, doesn't really matter. What matters is it made up a portion of the coverage.

2. I can't force you to read the sources, but don't object to them if you aren't going to read them. BlennGeck (talk) 20:29, 12 February 2011 (UTC)

It seems I have to agree w/Blaxthos AF. You don't seem to think Wikipedia's policies go far enough, so you've invented your own. If there are no further objections from other parties, I will now insert the material. Soxwon (talk) 20:34, 12 February 2011 (UTC)

By all means, I believe the material should be included. BlennGeck (talk) 20:43, 12 February 2011 (UTC)

What material? No, seriously, this entire section looks like a Google returns page interspersed with arguments over whether the sources are reliable, undue, etc. There has been no actual discussion of proposed changes to the article. Perhaps before asking whether there are any objections to inserting "the material" it would be useful to provide a draft of proposed additions for discussion, no? Fat&Happy (talk) 21:30, 12 February 2011 (UTC)

Well I am suggesting that we include a summary of Beck's analysis of Egypt, that his analysis has led to criticism from from people like William Kristol and others. We should include Beck's response to the criticisms. It is also probably worth mentioning that some have viewed this as a reflection of a deeper division within the conservative movement. BlennGeck (talk) 21:40, 12 February 2011 (UTC)

Can I suggest you produce a draft of what you are proposing, and start a new section when it is ready, so we can discuss it. I'm inclined to think there is now enough written about this to merit at least a sentence or two. AndyTheGrump (talk) 21:44, 12 February 2011 (UTC)

Bleck, Sox, you have said "Glenn Beck argues XXX, it's in the links". I read the CNN story and it did not argue what you are saying, so until you say "Article XXX says this" I am not going to go to every single article like a fool looking for what part you could be referring to. Tell me "The politico article says "XXXX"" and I will read the politico article and comment back to it. Also, yes a draft would be nice.AerobicFox (talk) 23:51, 12 February 2011 (UTC)