Talk:Friedrich Saemisch

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Requested move 18 October 2024

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: no consensus. Editors were divided on whether "Sämisch" and "Saemisch" should be considered fully distinct surnames, or whether the chess player used both spellings. A relist proved unable to break the deadlock, with the result that a consensus did not form in either direction. (closed by non-admin page mover) ModernDayTrilobite (talk • contribs) 19:49, 21 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Friedrich Saemisch → Friedrich Saemisch (politician) – Ambiguous with Friedrich Sämisch - these are both the same name, but transliterated differently. Redirect Friedrich Saemisch to the primary topic Friedrich Sämisch. 162 etc. (talk) 19:26, 18 October 2024 (UTC) — Relisting. SilverLocust 💬 09:38, 1 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose. Although German Wikipedia entries for the two men list their names in the same manner as English Wikipedia, databases for the chess player show "Saemisch", not "Sämisch". While it is indeed basically the same surname, contemporary German references confirm that the form used by the jurist / politician was always "Saemisch", while the chess player's German references indicate "Sämisch". However, the two English-language chess databases at the bottom of his English Wikipedia entry, depict his surname as "Saemisch". —Roman Spinner (talk • contribs) 02:14, 19 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
de.wiki usage is not a consideration.

"Saemisch" for the chess player can be seen in reliable sources. [1][2] 162 etc. (talk) 16:09, 19 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

While the jurist/politician's surname seems to have been invariably rendered as "Saemisch", even in the German-speaking world, the chess player's surname in the German-speaking world appears to have been invariably rendered as "Sämisch", per [3] and other German-language websites, but, for English Wikipedia, even a number of English-language websites, such as Chess.com or Chessbase refer to him as Sämisch or even Samisch, rather than consistently as Saemisch.

Judging by these separate usages in the German-speaking world, Saemisch / Sämisch may well be considered there in the same manner that name spelling differences, such as Philips / Phillips, O'Keefe / O'Keeffe or McMahon / MacMahon are seen in the English-speaking world.

Thus, it might be intuitive to leave the matter without addition of parenthetical qualifier, therefore not indicating the chess player's main title header, which does not have a qualifier, as apparently primary over the jurist/politician's header for which a qualifier is proposed. The currently existing hatnotes atop each of the entries appear sufficient. —Roman Spinner (talk • contribs) 00:26, 20 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

German-language usage is not a consideration.

While in general, it's best to avoid parentheticals, we can only do this if the title is unambiguous - and in this case, it's not. 162 etc. (talk) 16:26, 20 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Rename We once had a bot that created every possible ae->ä redirect. While it caused a lot of havoc that is still being cleaned up to this day, the fact that someone thought that was a vaguely reasonable thing to do is clear enough evidence that we can't trust readers to reliably make the distinction. * Pppery * _{it has begun...} 05:16, 24 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose adding parenthetical qualifier to one entry, but not the other. Since there is no indication that Friedrich Sämisch is primary over Friedrich Saemisch in the German-speaking world, there is likewise little indication that Friedrich Sämisch is primary over Friedrich Saemisch in the English-speaking world. Would not oppose, however, creation of a Friedrich Saemisch disambiguation page, with Friedrich Sämisch redirecting to it, that would list both Friedrich Saemisch (politician) as well as Friedrich Sämisch (chess player). —Roman Spinner (talk • contribs) 20:12, 29 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The chess player looks like the primary topic to me, with 10x as many page views. But in the interest of a compromise I would prefer disambiguating both to disambiguating neither. * Pppery * _{it has begun...} 20:49, 29 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Note: WikiProject Germany and WikiProject Biography/Politics and government have been notified of this discussion. 🎃 ASUKITE🎃 15:44, 31 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose, the hatnotes do the trick. This is fine according to Wikipedia:Disambiguation#Different_spelling_variants. —Kusma (talk) 16:41, 31 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
That doesn't address the primary topic aspect. The chess player is primary for both spellings. 162 etc. (talk) 20:24, 1 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Weak support: From the above-mentioned 10× ratio and the politician's tendency to use "Saemisch", it seems clear that the chess player is primary for "Sämisch". And we don't need to worry very much about what happens specifically for readers in "the German-speaking world", as this is the Wikipedia for readers of English, not German. But it does not seem at all clear that the politician is primary for "Saemisch". There could be enough leakage from people looking for the more popular topic with the alternative spelling for the chess player to swamp out or equal the number of people looking for information about the politician. —⁠ ⁠BarrelProof (talk) 17:12, 1 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose There is still some difference when it comes to English spelling. Abhishek0831996 (talk) 04:32, 2 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.