Talk:Fountain (Duchamp)/Archive 3

Archive 1

Archive 2

Archive 3

90° rotation

Art historians generally refer to the position of Duchamp's Fountain as rotated 90° from its originally intended position. Other solutions exist, such as a rotation of 180° (about a diagonal axis), but the 90° rotation is preferred for it's simplicity, clarity, beauty, and elegance. The rotation is important because it represents a modification of the ready-made object. By choosing the urinal, signing it, and repositioning it, the found object became art. The 90° rotation was sufficient to satisfy the artists goal. (Some historians consider only the un-altered objects to be readymades). The diagrams below exemplify why the vast majority of art historians speak correctly of a 90° transformation, with respect to Fountain:

• 
  Fountain, rotated 90° from upright position
• 
  Fountain, 90° rotation, multiple views
• 
  Fountain, 90° rotation, two views

For a more detailed description see the file pages at Commons. Coldcreation (talk) 08:35, 24 November 2018 (UTC)

This pic deserves an award for intellectual(?)/graphical(?)/intentional(?) dishonesty illusion.

I apologize for using in a first rage the above -stricken- word. 10:59, 24 November 2018 (UTC) Purgy (talk) 08:48, 24 November 2018 (UTC)

@Purgy Purgatorio: Are you upset that a 'urinal' has become an icon of 20th century art? Coldcreation (talk) 09:08, 24 November 2018 (UTC)

When I started to reply the above question looked this: Would you care to explain why? My intended answer, now obsolete was this:

Please, allow for some time, especially, since the pic has changed meanwhile, to compose an appropriate explanation, void of WP:OR and fitting to the artsy-fartsy imagery of serious geometry in higher dimensions, sketched in the thread above. As a first hint, I point to the misleading arc, labeled 90°, between two lines, insinuating to be Cartesian axes belonging to a rotated body, which they do not. BTW, the last, now new, pic in the triptychon seems to involve an additional 180° rotation. I am not sure if this makes up for 270° in art-circles.

The answer to the current question is: No, I personally stopped to care, among other things, for the kind of art, described as "Is this to be depolluted, or is it art?" I leave it to others to set prices for art-objects, to select their icons for and of whatever—a kind of freedom I enjoy. My interest is how dumb something can be to be accepted, e.g. inversion of convexity. Purgy (talk) 10:59, 24 November 2018 (UTC)

@Purgy Purgatorio: Perhaps you would care to show us how it's done. Coldcreation (talk) 12:24, 24 November 2018 (UTC)

Never mind, I will be uploading a new version set on cartesian coordinates shortly. Coldcreation (talk) 14:15, 24 November 2018 (UTC)

Schematic diagram in cartesian coordinates of Marcel Duchamp's Fountain, showing the transformation from the original position (I. upper right), to the position chosen by Duchamp, rotated 90° (II. upper left). The origin about which Fountain rotates is at 0.0. Coldcreation (talk) 14:47, 24 November 2018 (UTC)

That second image illustrates the problem perfectly. If I ask someone to "imagine a urinal, rotated 90 degrees", I'd bet the last option they consider is tipping it backwards through the wall like it was punched by Agent Smith in that bathroom fight with Morpheus. (Here, the wall is the $y$ axis.) Very probably, they'd visualize a rotation from the default starting position either to the user's left or to the user's right, which is not the orientation we're trying to describe. "Oh, you mean tilted forward?" No, that leaves the object facing down, which isn't what we want to convey, either. There is no "simplicity, clarity, beauty, and elegance" in the "rotate 90 degrees" instruction. Heaping extra words of praise upon it doesn't really help its case, at least to me. At best, it is redundant with the plain verbal description "laid flat on its wall-plate". Geometrically, the most "elegant" description might be the "rotate 180 degrees about the diagonal axis" version, since that is the one which makes clear that applying the same transformation twice returns the object to its initial orientation. (Out of all the sources invoked so far, the one that might be the most "respectable" by superficial indications makes a geometrical claim that, as written, just can't be correct. Then the author builds a metaphor on top of that. The "rotate 180 degrees about the diagonal" version has the entertaining feature of demonstrating that a different choice of axis makes the basis for the metaphor true after all. So, both the mathematician and the art historian have reason to prefer the "180 degrees" statement.) XOR'easter (talk) 15:52, 24 November 2018 (UTC)

Your "tipping it backwards through the wall" illustrates precisely what User:Bus stop and I have repeating over and over again. There is no preferred frame of reference when observing a 3-dimensional work of art. And your "laid flat on its wall-plate" to replace 'rotated 90 degrees' doesn't cut it either. Not one reliable source mentions a "wall-plate" relative to Fountain, not to mention "laid flat". And those sources above that mention 180 degrees are not WP:RELIABLE, and none mention a diagonal axis. Coldcreation (talk) 16:13, 24 November 2018 (UTC)

The only people who require precise language are those without access to images or those who are vision-impaired. Perhaps a section should be created which specifies that its purpose is to communicate orientation of the object as an art object and orientation of the object as a bathroom fixture. Elsewhere in the article reference to orientation need be little more than "In Duchamp's presentation the urinal's orientation was altered from its usual positioning." Access to images makes precise language concerning orientation unnecessary. Bus stop (talk) 16:47, 24 November 2018 (UTC)

I was near to apologize once more, this time for not being clever enough for recognizing that in this here artistic environment it is about rotating specific plane oblique views of three dimensional objects within their plane by 90°, and not about rotating the objects themselves within their native 3D embedding. Perhaps some Escher-staircases should be included here. The facts that the starting pic has nothing to do with a frontal view, reminding of the object's use, and that the final pic does not reflect the orientation given in the pic of the article, are certainly fully negligible in this context. Up to now I thought it would suffice to get rid of the WP:OR(ubbish) about symmetry axes, and state that a rotation by 90° (with the appropriate sign) in planes(!) parallel to the symmetry plane of this object (There are just two planes, easily to identify in this object: the mentioned symmetry plane, and the, strangely disputed, plane of the wall-plate. Calling this WP:OR identifies 1 + 1 = 2 as such.) would end up in a position analogous to looking at the occiput of a bust, readymade to be walked around, and after 180° presenting the view of the article's photo, but now I just take the other pill, hiding me some time lapse from WP's reality. Purgy (talk) 17:16, 24 November 2018 (UTC)

And those sources above that mention 180 degrees are not WP:RELIABLE — Why not? Because they mention 180 degrees? (The Adcock source you insisted upon adding to the article was manifestly unreliable, as far as mathematics is concerned, since everything it does not copy out of an earlier popularization of mathematics is in error.) There is no preferred frame of reference when observing a 3-dimensional work of art. Untrue. Frames of reference in which the floor is horizontal are preferred in a very practical sense, for example. It would be more justified to say that there are no preferred axes around which to rotate a work of art, and consequently, the statement "Duchamp ... reoriented it 90 degrees", which includes no specification of the axis of rotation, is meaningless. XOR'easter (talk) 17:58, 24 November 2018 (UTC)

How is it possible that these people continue to believe that "tipping it backwards through the wall" completes the transformation? It doesn't. If you do it that way, you still have to rotate it 180 degrees (or, the same thing by relativity, walk around it) to get to the usual view. So the tipping part of it has saved you zero effort because the 180 degree rotation is still needed. Or, you could just do the 180 degree rotation in the correct axis to begin with. Alternatively, if you somehow believe that the walking around part should not be counted as a transformation (because reasons), then just put it down on the ground in its normal position and loom over it from behind and above, looking down on it. Voila! You now see the sculpture in its sculpture position with zero transformations. —David Eppstein (talk) 18:08, 24 November 2018 (UTC)

I was just about to say that if we really de-privilege our frames of reference and ignore the "usual view", we might as well say that the object was unchanged, because we could be staring down at it from a catwalk above the gallery, so that it looks just like a urinal mounted on a wall. XOR'easter (talk) 18:23, 24 November 2018 (UTC)

Yes, "we could be staring down at it from a catwalk above the gallery" but that display perspective is farfetched, whereas a 3/4 view is not at all farfetched. Bus stop (talk) 18:54, 24 November 2018 (UTC)

Well, maybe a little far-fetched. :-) XOR'easter (talk) 19:56, 24 November 2018 (UTC)

Getting to a 3/4 view would require yet a different rotation, one I'm too lazy to calculate right now. —David Eppstein (talk) 18:57, 24 November 2018 (UTC)

Don't bother because there is nothing special about a 3/4 view either. Bus stop (talk) 19:00, 24 November 2018 (UTC)

I might as well chime in. In my view of it there are two solutions. If you imagine the urinal facing towards the viewer in a "normal" configuration then it has to be turned 180 degrees around and then 90 degrees up to get to the artistic position. Or, more likely but surmising, the artist first saw the urinal exactly as it sits in the photograph, realized the artistic readymade potential in leaving it exactly like that as a signed piece, and went with it. The "it" of this art piece is its new orientation, which would confuse some portion of the brain for a microsecond. The artist would have recognized that when first seeing it - thus, art. Randy Kryn (talk) 19:09, 24 November 2018 (UTC)

We should simply say "In Duchamp's presentation the urinal's orientation was altered from its usual positioning." Bus stop (talk) 19:19, 24 November 2018 (UTC)

That position has the benefit of not being wrong. It is also consistent with your claim above that there is nothing special about any particular viewpoint, and inconsistent with the position of Coldcreation that we should blindly repeat the wrong claims of a 90 degree rotation from the sources that make those claims. —David Eppstein (talk) 19:38, 24 November 2018 (UTC)

I would be content with that phrasing. XOR'easter (talk) 19:51, 24 November 2018 (UTC)

Not Coldcreation (talk) 20:40, 24 November 2018 (UTC)

Gabriel Nivasch (a coauthor of mine) made a brief video that may help clarify the 180 degree rotation explanation, to those without closed minds: https://plus.google.com/u/0/photos/photo/103502386102398205496/6627607475500849154 —David Eppstein (talk) 01:55, 25 November 2018 (UTC)

There really is no need to complicate the issue. As mentioned above, the same maneuver can be carried by pivoting the object 180° on its drain pipe (at 0.0). But a simple pivot on the same point can accomplish the task with a 90° maneuver. That solution is only interesting if one's goal it to keep the "front" of the object visible at all time: the "preferred reference frame" solution. Or if the goal is to continue spinning it back to it's 'normal' position (in 2 steps). The motion itself is arguably awkward, artificial (not natural). No need to turn it 180° when 90° will suffice. Also mentioned above, there exist an infinite number of axes (all parallel to the line connecting the urinals screw holes) that will accomplish the same task with a 90° rotation. I doubt anyone here had difficulty (before the video) visualizing the maneuver, and no need for the "closed minds" comment. Finally, the important thing to note (shortly to be included in the article) is not how one physically arrives at the position (on its base) but how the change in position contributes to the creation of an artwork; or, more precisely perhaps, the illusion of an artwork. Coldcreation (talk) 06:36, 25 November 2018 (UTC)

It is not more complicated. It is simpler, because it gets you from start to finish in a single motion of the object rather than requiring an extra step (turning the pedestal or whatever). If the start back plane and base plane are swapped from the end back plane and base plane, this is the only single rotation that takes one position to the other, regardless of where one is standing while watching it rotate. I don't know why you keep blathering on about 90 sufficing when it clearly doesn't. —David Eppstein (talk) 07:49, 25 November 2018 (UTC)

No one here is "closed minded" or "blathering" but you. There is no need for a 180° maneuver when a simpler 90° will suffice (with no extra step). The notion Fountain needs to face the viewer (as the 1917 Stieglitz photo), requiring an "extra step" is untenable. There is no preferred viewpoint. Purgy is correct; this is about rotating a specific plane of a 3-dimensional object by 90°. Regardless, it's not the motion that matters; it's what the new position offers as a response to artistic creation, and how that choice informs the observer. Coldcreation (talk) 08:33, 25 November 2018 (UTC)

I do not want to stand cited incompletely. I described the rotation, necessary to rotate a urinal from its position in standard use to the position as depicted in the article, by employing a 90° rotation in planes parallel to the obvious symmetry plane of the urinal, plus a 180° rotation in planes parallel to the floor. These two rotations may be combined to a unique single 180° rotation, as described several times already and depicted in a nice video. This one, single rotation may be decomposed in infinitely many ways to other rotations, but (for group-theoretical reasons) there is no single 90° rotation doing the same job. Since the cited source refers to the position of the urinal in use, the result of a 90° rotation, referred to in the source, cannot deliver the depicted position, at least not in the real world, maybe it does so in some artsy-fartsy imagination. Purgy (talk) 11:22, 25 November 2018 (UTC)

This whole idea of "artsy-fartsy" is as poorly defined as the notion of there being a proper frame of reference for a three-dimensional object. Bus stop (talk) 19:08, 25 November 2018 (UTC)

The 2-D photo is not a work of art. Nor does the photo represent the view from which the object should be seen. The work represented is 3-D and thus meant to be seen from any angle. There is no addition of (or "plus") a 180° rotation in planes parallel to the floor required. Coldcreation (talk) 11:37, 25 November 2018 (UTC)

Allow me to add my two cents to the discussion. "Euler's rotation theorem" states that if you take any object and perform any sequence of rotations to it, then there exists a unique axis such that having performed a single rotation to the original object around that axis would have had the same effect. Here is a nice interactive demonstration of this mathematical fact, using a rotating Earth: https://web.stanford.edu/~ajdunl2/so3/so3.html Hence, in light of Euler's rotation theorem, it makes sense to talk about *the* axis and *the* angle of a given rotation. Now, the usual way to look at a urinal is from the front, not from the back (i.e. from behind the bathroom wall). Similarly, the usual way to look at Duchamp's sculpture is also *not* from the back, as witnessed by all the Google image results of searching "Duchamp fountain". As we can see, 3D geometry is somewhat counter-intuitive. For example, in the above Earth example, if we asked someone to return the Earth to its original position by hand, I don't think anyone would do it in the way shown. Most people would do it in two steps: First placing the North pole up and the South pole down, and then rotating around the vertical axis. Similarly, if we asked people to turn the urinal to the desired position, then perhaps many people would do it in two steps, first rotating 180 degrees around one axis and then rotating 90 degrees around another axis. However, mathematically it makes more sense to talk about a single axis of rotation and a single angle of rotation. In that case, there is only one possibility: The axis must be diagonal and the angle must be 180 degrees. Since these slightly confusing solid-geometry facts are somewhat disconnected from most people's day-to-day lives, the best solution, which avoids being confusing and also avoids being mathematically incorrect, would be not to talk about any angle, but instead to say something like "turned so as to lie on its back side", or something like that. Gabriel Nivasch. Gabn1 (talk) 14:52, 25 November 2018 (UTC)

• I'm coming around to Coldcreation's point of view. The artwork is a transformed urinal which is now a signed sculpture named Fountain. As a sculpture it has no front or back side, but is complete as seen from any direction. If the angle compared to what it is - a new and unmounted urinal - must be mentioned, 90 degrees is getting warmer (duo meaning intended). Randy Kryn (talk) 15:16, 25 November 2018 (UTC)

Welcome Gabn1. The only desired position is laying flat on its wall-plate (on a pedestal). From a vertical position, there is one, and only one, step needed to place the urinal on its wall plate horizontally: a 90° rotation. That is neither confusing nor mathematically incorrect. (See this diagram). Coldcreation (talk) 15:32, 25 November 2018 (UTC)

The 2-D photo is not a work of art. That seems rather to insult the entire art of photography. Checking the caption: "Marcel Duchamp Fountain, 1917, photograph by Alfred Stieglitz" ... clicking the link for Alfred Stieglitz... "who was instrumental over his fifty-year career in making photography an accepted art form." Huh. And since the original is lost, we ought to talk about the art we do have, oughtn't we? Nor does the photo represent the view from which the object should be seen. No, but it is the view from which the object is seen, while reading this article. Any description that implies a frontal view which is inconsistent with the photo is a poor integration of picture and text, and is apt to be confusing to any reader who pauses to think about it. We don't have the freedom to walk around the photograph. (In the distance, I hear the cries of all the graphic designers who were told by their clients, "Just flip it in Photoshop so we can see the back!") To make a deliberate pun of the matter: the photograph establishes a preferred frame.

If the angle compared to what it is - a new and unmounted urinal - must be mentioned — I am more and more convinced that it isn't necessary. Without specifying an axis of rotation, giving a number of degrees is incomplete. An attempt to complete the description (e.g., "so that it lies flat on its wall-plate") ends up making the number of degrees redundant. If we actually try to be good expositors and integrate picture with text (while also benefiting readers with poor vision), we might eschew the digits altogether. For example, "The artist brought the urinal to his studio at 33 West 67th Street, reoriented it from its originally intended position of use to lie flat on its wall-plate instead, and signed it "R. Mutt 1917". In the frontal view photographed by Alfred Stieglitz, the water inflow pipe of the urinal, which is normally vertical, instead faces the viewer." XOR'easter (talk) 17:26, 25 November 2018 (UTC)

The sculpture clearly has a favored front side (the one shown in the photo), as evidenced for instance by the fact that Steiglitz in setting up the photo felt free to place a painting as backdrop close behind it rather than showing the back side open for viewers to walk behind. And a urinal, also, clearly has a favored front side (the side you piss into). To get from one to the other can only be done by a 180 degree rotation. Alternatively, if you think the choice of which point is on top is artistically significant but the choice of which point to think of as the front is not, as Randy Kryn is arguing above, it is still incorrect to say that the rotation angle must have been 90 degrees, because it could be obtained by any of a family of rotations through different axes whose angles range from 90 to 180. —David Eppstein (talk) 18:38, 25 November 2018 (UTC)

180 degrees is no more precise than 90 degrees. By saying the object is reoriented 90 degrees we are providing a sighted reader with all they need to know. In fact it wouldn't even make much of a difference if the reorientation were actually 85 or 95 degrees. All we are doing here is providing a simple verbal notation which informs that Duchamp has presented the object not as it is usually seen. There is no favored frame of reference. It has a base that allows the viewer to walk around it; it is not a bas-relief. We are merely including in the article a simple verbal notation that the only "alteration" to the object is a reorientation. While that is something worth noting, it is also something entirely obvious to anyone looking at the object or looking at the photo of the object. Bus stop (talk) 18:47, 25 November 2018 (UTC)

90° of separation

On my first visit to the Louvre I happened to walk into a corridor which led to the "back side" of the Venus de Milo, so my first glimpse of the statue was from an angle not often seen in photographs. That side was as well-sculpted as the traditional "front", with no indication of which side the marble aligned originally before its transformation. Since, by definition, a sculpture is a three-dimensional work of art, the moment Duchamp aligned and signed Fountain he created something new. So discussing which way it was meant to face as a bathroom fixture is like backtracking to the time the Venus de Milo was a large piece of rock not yet hewn or distinguished (to stretch a point) or, in the case of Fountain, when a piece of shaped ceramic was picked up, hauled to a studio, and, with the help of imaginative human minds, forever changed contemporary art. Randy Kryn (talk) 19:02, 25 November 2018 (UTC)

If you both truly believe that this is a fuzzy-headed and imprecise way of describing it as being differently oriented, why not say that, instead of pretending at precision with the bogus 90 degree claim? —David Eppstein (talk) 19:18, 25 November 2018 (UTC)

I'm actually just alluding to and arguing both sides (see image above). As discussed, sources apparently are conflicted as to degrees. So probably a written descriptor, as suggested above, rather than a precise mathematical measurement, may be the way to go. Coldcreation, is there a descriptor other than a degree enforcement that you'd agree to? Thanks. Randy Kryn (talk) 19:25, 25 November 2018 (UTC)

You are objecting to the wording "90 degrees" and I respect that and I think the reference to 90 degrees could be omitted. What I don't think you realize is that you have not presented an argument that the "180 degrees" reference should be included in the article. This is because there is no proper frame of reference for a three-dimensional object. Therefore I would be OK omitting all reference to a number of degrees. Bus stop (talk) 19:30, 25 November 2018 (UTC)

@XOR'easter: Your first point is the logical fallacy of appeal to probability: assuming all photographs must be artworks, since some are. Your argument lacks deductive validity since your premise is false. The second point is the proof by assertion fallacy: the Stieglitz view-point is the preferred reference frame is repeatedly restated regardless of contradiction. Your third point is a slippery slope argument: that the inclusion of "90°" is likely to result in unintended consequences, and to avoid such a catastrophe, should not be included in the article. Coldcreation (talk) 19:35, 25 November 2018 (UTC)

Some sculptures do have a natural "front" side even if others do not. Regarding this particular sculpture, you don't see in Google images anyone photographing it from the "back". Gabn1 (talk) 20:07, 25 November 2018 (UTC)

For Beatrice Wood, indeed, Fountain was not only the "Madonna of the Bathroom", but also comparable to "a Brancusi, with curved lines of genuine sensitivity", a formal logic perhaps informed by the fact that Fountain and a version of Princess X were both slated to appear at the 1917 New York Independents exhibition. But Fountain is also a "female object" according to another of Duchamp's randy quip. ([1])

I read recently about the beauty of all side of Fountain. I will search for that text. Meanwhile, the above describes the types of 3-D objects that are appealing, or at least should be seen, from all sides, like a madonna. Who would dream of not rotating around a female object? Edit: Beatrice Wood's text dates to 1917. Indeed, from its inception, Fountain was seen for what it was, and was to become. Coldcreation (talk) 20:43, 25 November 2018 (UTC)

Gabn1—but the concept of reorienting an object need not concern itself with front or back. The language being considered for inclusion in the article addresses the reorientation of the object. The language chosen need not concern itself with a preferred vantage point for viewing the object. Bus stop (talk) 20:47, 25 November 2018 (UTC)

@Coldcreation: None of the logical fallacies you list characterize my statements. Your remark that the Stieglitz photographs is "not a work of art" remains completely unsupported opinion on your part. In any event, whether or not Stieglitz committed an act of art is secondary to my point. You claim that I foresee a "catastrophe"; I have said nothing so dramatic, only that a good article for a multimedia encyclopedia should coordinate its media properly. I am simply trying to integrate photograph and text in the way that best benefits readers (including those who are not sighted). Even sources talking about the beauty of Fountain from all vantage points would not negate the fact that the vantage point we show is Stieglitz's photograph. The fact that the picture provides a vantage point, and thus establishes a frame of reference, would be equally true if the photograph were an anonymous work-for-hire by a forgotten wire-service reporter. Can we please leave the listing of irrelevant logical fallacies to the subreddits of angry teenagers, and get on with the work of building an encyclopedia? XOR'easter (talk) 23:20, 25 November 2018 (UTC)

This articles is and will continue to be based on reliable third-party published sources with a reputation for accuracy. The opinions of reliable authors are published, and not the opinions of Wikipedians who have read and interpreted (or misinterpreted) primary source material for themselves: Per WP:RS Coldcreation (talk) 23:34, 25 November 2018 (UTC)

Your opinion that the three reliably-published sources listed above for the 180-degree rotation explanation should be excluded and that only the sources you have found for the bogus 90-degree explanation should be included is unsupported by Wikipedia policy, and your claims that any positions contrary to yours are unsupported by sources have already been clearly falsified by those listings of sources above. In any case, mathematics is not a subject for opinions, and when sources state bogus pseudomathematics like the 4d-rotation theory you tried to push earlier, their reliability is cast into serious doubt. —David Eppstein (talk) 00:03, 26 November 2018 (UTC)

It is not the motion from position A to B that matters; it is what the novel position offers as a response to human creativity, how that choice informs the observer, and how its position, along with its title combine to place this artwork, with the Mona Lisa, Guernica, Les Demoiselles d'Avignon (and others) as one of the most influential artworks of all time. Finally, what matters is how Fountain (with its novel position and title) along with other readymades, have made of Marcel Duchamp one of the most influential artists of all time. Coldcreation (talk) 06:39, 26 November 2018 (UTC)

If the motion doesn't matter, why do you want to keep an incorrect description of that motion in the article? —David Eppstein (talk) 06:54, 26 November 2018 (UTC)

My question exactly. XOR'easter (talk) 15:06, 26 November 2018 (UTC)

@Lisiate, David Eppstein, Coldcreation, Bus stop, XOR'easter, Randy Kryn, and Tamfang: Here is a simple diagram presenting how one can turn an urinal into the Fountain by 90° or 180° rotation (images in the upper and the lower row, respecively) with appropriate choice of the rotation axis (fat red lines).

Best regards, CiaPan (talk) 14:22, 26 November 2018 (UTC)

@Lisiate, David Eppstein, Coldcreation, Bus stop, XOR'easter, Randy Kryn, and Tamfang: One can possibly do it with any intermediate angle of rotation – the middle row of an updated image shows an example for 120°. --CiaPan (talk) 16:44, 26 November 2018 (UTC)

The diagram reproduced above, by CiaPan, and the diagram reproduced above, in cartesian coordinates showing the transformation of Fountain to the position chosen by Duchamp, rotated 90°, are proof that art historians have correctly indicated the position of the work (on its pedestal) relative to the standard upright functional position. The few sources for 180° failed to mention a diagonal axis (and are therefore unreliable: nothing to do with my opinion). Again, the most important concept moving forward is to explain in the article how the choice of that 'new' position along with its title and other factors have irreversibly and resoundingly changed the course of art history. Coldcreation (talk) 08:23, 26 November 2018 (UTC)

Saying "90 degrees" is, by itself, insufficient. If we're allowed to add to what the sources say when they say "90 degrees" in a manner that makes the result ultimately correct, why not do so when they say "180 degrees"? Moreover, if the most important concept moving forward is to explain the significance of choosing a new position, then why not simply describe the repositioning and the accompanying photograph in plain words, and then in the "Interpretations" section, go on to summarize the metaphors people have read into it about gender inversion and so forth? (I should say the conjectural repositioning, since all we have is a story to begin with, and it's entirely possible that Duchamp just saw it in the shop that way, because a guy at the iron works was afraid it would tip over if he stored it vertically, and Duchamp thought, "Hey, it looks different like that" — or, rather, Cela semble un peu nouvel! Choosing to take the unfamiliar and not make it ordinary is still a choice, after all.) XOR'easter (talk) 15:06, 26 November 2018 (UTC)