Talk:Fanny Bullock Workman

Picture requested

Anyone live near Worcester, MA who could take a pic of the Workman gravesite and upload it to Commons? Wadewitz (talk) 18:11, 21 October 2013 (UTC)

Thanks, Obama Awadewit. Worcester is kind of a shithole. In fact, the sign on the outskirts of town says "Worcester: Kind of a Shithole". So 1 point for you.

I took several images. This seems to fit your bill the most. There is no tomb or other monument to Workman in the cemetery, but the structure of the stone here is notable in that it is the only one in the cemetery--which is quite large--that is shaped like natural stone. Other monuments to other Bullocks are nearby. As I have no idea who is related to whom, I'll leave that up to whoever wants to deal with that if at all...

The entire group of shots I took can be seen here, including a copy of the Perpetual Care In Deed sheet or whatever the hell it's called. It describes what the monument consists of. If the image I provided here does not suffice for whatever reason, someone can contact me to re-load another image from that stack. You can find me here or you can leave a note on my talk page. I do not predict I will be active on Wikipedia, however, so I urge you to contact me through deviantArt.

I will leave it up to whoever is watching this article to place the image in the article. Have at it. --Moni3 (talk) 18:29, 16 April 2014 (UTC)

Jeez, thanks, you're the only person who can make me laugh and then want to cry all over again. You're still awesome, though, on so many levels, and I sincerely thank you for doing this for this project and for Adrianne. Christine (Figureskatingfan) (talk) 20:38, 16 April 2014 (UTC)

Figureskatingfan review

As per the main editor's request on Facebook, I'm reviewing/copyediting this article. I prefer to do a more formal review, through GAC, but this being a special case--a special article written by a special editor, I'm bypassing it and posting my questions only here on this talk page. It's a bit presumptuous of me, I know; I'm very much an amateur with the audacity of reviewing and copyediting an article written by a professional writer, academic, and expert in the subject, but this being the democratic and open project it is, I'll have a go at it.

Lead: No infobox? I don't care much for them myself, but I'd like to hear the case for not having one here.

I don't particularly care for them either, but I'm sure someone will come along and ask for one, so I've just added one. Wadewitz (talk) 20:43, 28 October 2013 (UTC)

Yup, good call. Although I just heard a lecture about marketing, and how content should be directed towards all kinds of readers: those who tend to scan everything, those who scan depending on what it is, and those who like to read every printed thing that comes their way. Perhaps infoboxes are for the scanners. Anyway, I'm rethinking them. Christine (Figureskatingfan) (talk) 16:50, 29 October 2013 (UTC)

Early life

• 1st sentence: Was Workman born in Worchester? The current wording makes it sound like her descendants were from there, making it unclear that she was also born there.
  • Changed. Wadewitz (talk) 20:43, 28 October 2013 (UTC)
• 2nd sentence: Does this need three refs? I always think that if you can say the same thing in one ref, pick the best one.
  • All sentences that have multiple refs have that because they combine facts from more than one source. Wadewitz (talk) 20:43, 28 October 2013 (UTC)
• You say that she "subsequently moved to Paris". I suggest that if possible, you be more exact; when did it happen?
  • I haven't come across that information. Wadewitz (talk) 20:43, 28 October 2013 (UTC)
• "A small number of stories": Does Pauly state how many? If not, I'd use "a few" or "a couple".
  • I used his word. Wadewitz (talk) 20:43, 28 October 2013 (UTC)

Move to Europe

• Moreover, as Luree Miller points out in her chapter about Workman, since the ideal family of the time was a large one and information about birth control was not easily available, William's medical knowledge must have been invaluable. This is the first time you mention Miller; I think you should mention the actual book here. Was William a doctor? I think you should clarify this a little, and say that his medical knowledge helped them to keep their family small.
  • Good catch! Mentioned his medical education earlier. I've described Miller's book instead. Wadewitz (talk) 20:43, 28 October 2013 (UTC)
• I know that the bicycle helped women attain more independence during this time, but not everyone would. Perhaps you need to explain this a bit?
  • I'll go back to the sources. I'm pretty sure one of them covered that point so that I can expand it. Wadewitz (talk) 20:43, 28 October 2013 (UTC)

Cycling tour to India: You say that they "dispensed with their bicycles". Did they sell them or just abandon them?

• Sources don't say. Wadewitz (talk) 20:43, 28 October 2013 (UTC)

What's accurate: "Himalaya" or "Himalayas"?

• Himalaya. Fixed. Wadewitz (talk) 22:46, 9 March 2014 (UTC)

Hispar and Siachen glaciers: ...Fanny unfurled a "Votes for Women" newspaper and her husband snapped an iconic picture. I think you can make this a little more formal. Actually, the entire paragraph is a bit informal; I suggest that you re-word.

• Copyedited article. Wadewitz (talk) 18:31, 18 March 2014 (UTC)

Later life and death: Does the 3rd sentence in the 2nd paragraph need all those refs?

• Yep. Wadewitz (talk) 20:43, 28 October 2013 (UTC)

Women in climbing: The 1st paragraph in this section is surprisingly weak. Firstly, it's too long; I recommend breaking it up into two paragraphs. I also recommend that you re-work it, please. I have the same feedback for the Exploration of the Himalaya section.

• Not really sure why this is too long. I have been reviewing it, but am not really sure what the issues are. Wadewitz (talk) 18:31, 18 March 2014 (UTC)

Ref 67: Should this be bolded?

• Not sure that it is. Wadewitz (talk) 20:43, 28 October 2013 (UTC)

In all, this is an excellent and interesting article, fitting of the kind of excellence expected from the main editor. Thanks for the opportunity to learn something new. I was going to pass it to GA until I read the final two sections. If you improve them, I'll bypass the normal procedure and pass it, since it will easily fulfill the criteria. Then I suggest that you submit it to FAC, where it should pass relatively easily. Christine (Figureskatingfan) (talk) 17:49, 24 October 2013 (UTC)

Thanks so much! I'm just trying to get a lot of reviews and lots of good of copyediting eyes, so I really appreciate your help. I'm hardly an expert myself, so the more help the better! These are great suggestions. I'll start working on them now. Wadewitz (talk) 22:32, 24 October 2013 (UTC)

@Wadewitz: I was going to boldly bump it up to A-class but it looks like it will go straight to GA :) -- phoebe / (talk to me) 19:33, 25 October 2013 (UTC)

Will be working on revising the last two sections! I'll probably do formal GA just because I like lots of reviews! Wadewitz (talk) 20:43, 28 October 2013 (UTC)

Ok, if that's what you want. You can tell your reviewer that I said I think that once you revise the sections, it's ready to be a GA. I agree with Phoebe, though, so I'll go ahead and be bold. Good luck! Christine (Figureskatingfan) (talk) 16:45, 29 October 2013 (UTC)

GA Review

This review is transcluded from Talk:Fanny Bullock Workman/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: Adam Cuerden (talk · contribs) 21:33, 21 June 2014 (UTC)

First of all - Himalaya: This is more commonly seen as "Himalayas" in English: Is there a reason for the less-used variant?

I had that question during my peer review and Wadewitz said that "Himalaya" was correct, and I accepted her expert opinion. I'm not sure how we can get confirmation of the correct/standard usage.

There's some copyediting issues here. I'm trying to work through them as I go, but things like

“ Thomas Pauly writes in his short biography of Workman that "early on Fanny chafed at the constraints of her privilege", and a small number of stories survive describing her "early enthusiasm for adventure".[1] In one, "A Vacation Episode", she describes a beautiful and aristocratic English girl who is contemptuous of society. ”

...where it should really say "a small number of her stories survive", to make it clear that these are stories written by her, not gossip about her. In any case, I've fixed most of them. Adam Cuerden ^(talk) 21:33, 21 June 2014 (UTC)

Ok, thanks.

In "Cycling tour of India", we read "They bicycled about 4,000 miles (6,400 km) from the southernmost tip of India to the northern mountains" - now, I believe the northern mountains are the Himalayas? If so, can't we phrase that as "to the Himalayas in the north"? It helps anchor readers who might be confused by the sudden appearance of a different term. Adam Cuerden ^(talk) 21:39, 21 June 2014 (UTC)

Done.

The section "Mountaineering in the Himalaya" has a lot of red links. While many of these might just be articles that don't exist, I have noticed in the past that Victorian sources can use slightly different spellings - in particular, they were more willing to Anglicize, so you'd get "Servia" for "Serbia", "Leipsic" for "Leipzig", and so on. Most of these aren't in use anymore, so it might well be that articles exist, and just need the redirect added. Adam Cuerden ^(talk) 21:42, 21 June 2014 (UTC)

Removed all but one, which I fixed.

Perhaps a bit more strangely, "Mount Bullock Workman" isn't linked. Is that name still used? If not, it would be good to give its modern name in parentheses after. This would apply to all such names that didn't stick, e.g. "Pyramid Peak" Adam Cuerden ^(talk) 21:45, 21 June 2014 (UTC)

That I don't know; really wish I could ask, ya know. According to this travel webpage [1], which was created in 2008, Mount Bullock Workman is still used. I fixed the Pyramid Peak (Wadewitz had actually misspelled "Spantik", which is why it was red-linked) and added a parenthetical about its modern name.

File:FannyBullockWorkmanVotesWomen.jpg - absolutely nothing wrong with this image. But I love it to pieces. Adam Cuerden ^(talk) 21:50, 21 June 2014 (UTC)

Yes, me too. Summarizes Workman's life all in one image.

Final verdict of the first review: It's one of Wadewitz's articles, and, unsurprisingly, is a strong, well-researched piece. A few minor issues I'd prefer to fix before promotion, but the article is basically there, and, once they're fixed, should be most of the way to FA. Adam Cuerden ^(talk) 21:58, 21 June 2014 (UTC)

Yes, like I've said before, when Wadewitz asked me to review it, I said that I thought it was already ready for GA and that I was willing to just pass it then, but she refused because "I like lots of reviews!" Man, I miss her. But User:Adam Cuerden, thanks for the review. Christine (Figureskatingfan) (talk) 16:54, 24 June 2014 (UTC)

Promoted - you taking this to FA after this? Adam Cuerden ^(talk) 18:28, 24 June 2014 (UTC)

Thanks, Adam; not right away because I already have a FAC in the queue. I'll let you know when I submit it. Christine (Figureskatingfan) (talk) 20:57, 24 June 2014 (UTC)

TFAR

Wikipedia:Today's featured article/requests/Fanny Bullock Workman, in women's history month, --Gerda Arendt (talk) 23:38, 4 March 2015 (UTC)

Commons category and more images

There is at least one unused image in the recently created Commons:Category:Fanny Bullock Workman, and many more public domain (1911) images in The Call of the Snowy Hispar, if anyone would like to use them. Cheers on the article. --Animalparty-- (talk) 07:27, 8 April 2015 (UTC)

First woman to give lectures at the Sorbonne?

The article says (in the section on her final years) that Ms Workman was the first woman to give lectures at the Sorbonne in Paris, and this would have been sometime around 1914. By that time, Marie Curie had been a faculty professor of physics at the same university for several years - this is well attested in numerous biographies and probably also in a few books on the Sorbonne. 83.254.154.164 (talk) 14:53, 8 April 2015 (UTC)

User talk:83.254.154.164, would you (or anyone else, if they could) provide those sources? I've done a cursory look, including Curie's WP article, and wasn't able to corroborate your claim. Thanks. Christine (Figureskatingfan) (talk) 23:47, 8 April 2015 (UTC)

This just in at WP:ERRORS (but it's 2 minutes until the article is off the Main Page, so I'm repeating it here): "Fanny Bullock Workman was the first American woman to lecture at the Sorbonne, as is clearly stated in the reference, not the first woman regardless of nationality. Heck, they even had a female professor at the Sorbonne (University of Paris) by then, Nobel Prize winner Marie Curie. Thomas.W ^talk 22:57, 8 April 2015 (UTC)" [copied by - Dank (push to talk) 23:58, 8 April 2015 (UTC)]

I see "American" has been added in the article lead and hasn't been reverted. - Dank (push to talk) 00:00, 9 April 2015 (UTC)

Congratulations!

Congratulations to all the contributors to this featured article. You deserve a lot of applause, recognition and appreciation. What a wonderful article.

  Bfpage |leave a message  16:11, 8 April 2015 (UTC)

File:Maull & Fox - Fanny Bullock Workman.jpg to appear as POTD soon

Hello! This is a note to let the editors of this article know that File:Maull & Fox - Fanny Bullock Workman.jpg will be appearing as picture of the day on January 8, 2017. You can view and edit the POTD blurb at Template:POTD/2017-01-08. If this article needs any attention or maintenance, it would be preferable if that could be done before its appearance on the Main Page. — Chris Woodrich (talk) 02:16, 26 December 2016 (UTC)

Picture of the day

Fanny Bullock Workman (1859–1925) was an American geographer, cartographer, explorer, travel writer, and mountaineer. Together with her husband, William Hunter Workman, she traveled by bicycle through Switzerland, France, Italy, Spain, Algeria and India; after taking up climbing in the Himalayas, she set a women's altitude record on Pinnacle Peak, reaching 23,000 feet (7,000 m). She published eight travel books, with particular focus on the lives of women in the countries she visited, and championed women's rights and women's suffrage.Photograph: Maull & Fox; restoration: Adam Cuerden

Professional mountaineer?

What is meant by "professional mountaineer"? "Professional" normally means you get paid for it, which seems unlikely in the case of a mountaineer. --Bermicourt (talk) 15:01, 13 May 2017 (UTC)

Peter Taugwalder

Peter Taugwalder is reported in his own article as having given up guiding shortly after his ascent with Whymper, and he died in the 1880s anyway, so it seems likely that the Peter Taugwalder who guided FBW on her ascent was Peter Taugwalder the Younger, not his father. Can anyone confirm this? If so, the article should make it clear which Taugwalder it's referring to--at the moment the link (to the father's article) is misleading. 206.208.104.20 (talk) 14:30, 7 September 2017 (UTC)

External links modified

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falsely understood quote

The quotation in Chapter India, 2nd paragraph, citing as a source a newspaper clipping, has IMHO been imprecisely used, because Workman's words refer to Java and not to India. Besides there is no explanation what sort of text this "My Asiatic Wanderings" is and where it comes from. DaLoetz (talk) 10:21, 22 January 2024 (UTC)

factual mistake

The section Hispar and Siachen glaciers contains a serious factual mistake in this sentence: ″The Workmans' exploration of the Rose Glacier and the 45-mile-long (72 km) Siachen Glacier in Baltistan around Masherbrum in 1911...″ Rose is another name for Siachen Glacier. Fanny Bullock explains it at length in her text.DaLoetz (talk) 19:23, 28 January 2024 (UTC)

other issues

• An imprecise quotation in the section Early life – in the original text by Jenny Ernie-Steighner the passage "no other well-known international mountaineers of the time, male or female, spoke as openly and fervently about women's rights" refers BOTH to Fanny Bullock Workman AND Annie Smith Peck. The way the citation is offered now is misleading. • To call FBW a geographer is IMHO a misnomer as she had no formal education in this field and her contribution in this field was by no means scientific. Her cartographical endeavours have been commented on. • A lot in this article is based the source that is introduced with: ″Thomas Pauly writes in his short biography of Workman that...″. Thomas Pauly, with all due respect for his professorship, did not write a biography of FBW, but a very short article for a university magazine, that deals mainly with some financial aspects of her career and self-promotion, and is itself based more in-depth studies. DaLoetz (talk) 19:52, 28 January 2024 (UTC)