Talk:Eurovision Song Contest 1956

1956 logo

Once again, the Dutch researcher I have contact with sent me something that also proves something wrong.

The 1956 logo didn’t actually have the Harrington font, but the version with the Playbill font in the logo’s edit history is the accurate logo.

He sent me a PDF file of all the pages of the official 1956 booklet, which includes all the promo photos of the singers. I posted them onto Twitter for a reply regarding the true logo. https://twitter.com/LewisTheJej/status/1667445614680915968

Not sure how the image can be reverted, nor how we came to agree that the Harrington font version is the real deal, when it’s not. Jusherman (talk) 09:30, 16 July 2023 (UTC)

Maybe we can include the promo photos in the Wikipedia page? Just a thought Jusherman (talk) 09:33, 16 July 2023 (UTC)

Would adding pages from the programme not have copyright implications? I can almost guarantee that this is not free media. Sims2aholic8 (talk) 12:46, 16 July 2023 (UTC)

Fair point on the pages. I’m also not sure if we can upload the 1964 stills to Wikimedia Commons, since they’re low quality like the 1965 frames.

Do you think we should revert the 1956 logo to the accurate version? Jusherman (talk) 22:29, 16 July 2023 (UTC)

I'd like more clarification on the booklet. It might be an official booklet, but is it the official booklet? My reason for questioning is that it's in Italian only, meanwhile the official languages of the event are English and French. Was it a local copy by a specific broadcaster or the host broadcaster? Was that actually the official logo typeface or the only typeface that the specific printer had available to them? The logo file has other versions in its history; it would also be interesting to hear how Wikipedia settled on the current Harrington version. Grk1011 (talk) 14:26, 17 July 2023 (UTC)

I am currently asking the researcher if the booklet was the official one, but I remember seeing one of the images on a website called andtheconductoris.eu. He also has contact with one of the people in charge of the website.

As far as I know, there was not a single instance of the Harrington font version in any of the promotional material he sent me. Jusherman (talk) 20:53, 17 July 2023 (UTC)

He told me that the booklet he sent me was the official one! He’s had the booklet for years. More recently, he saw a TV interview of Anne Bantzinger (Jetty Paerl’s daughter), and he saw the booklet on a table.

Furthermore, he couldn’t find the Harrington font version anywhere in his collection, and he doubts it’s the real deal. Jusherman (talk) 08:30, 18 July 2023 (UTC)

Does he know why it's only available in Italian? Doesn't seem like it would have been very helpful to many of the participants. Switzerland itself didn't even send an entry in Italian that year. Grk1011 (talk) 12:25, 18 July 2023 (UTC)

He doesn’t know why it’s only in Italian. He also told me there only was an Italian version, as that was the host’s and organization’s language.

The 1957 promo booklet also only had the organizing country’s language, German. It was only in 1958 where the booklets would be multilingual.

Is it alright if I revert the image myself? I’ll state my reasons in the image caption. Jusherman (talk) 09:11, 19 July 2023 (UTC)

I’ve seen the promo photo of Walter Andreas Schwarz on his Wikipedia page in similar quality, and there seems to be no issue.

Maybe there will be no problem posting these to Wikipedia Commons. Jusherman (talk) 05:35, 12 August 2023 (UTC)

A bit late to join in the debate, but some comments:

The logo as currently shown on the Wikipedia article features the logo of RSI under the title and gives the impression that the RSI logo was part of the "official logo". In the pictures of the booklet, only the title of the contest can be seen on top of the first page but not the logo of RSI. So the current version used on Wikipedia is misleading in this respect.

Secondly, as Grk1011 pointed out, earlier versions of the file show an entirely different logo. This different logo is also used on eurovision.tv. It's not entirely clear what the basis for that logo is (in which publication for example it should be possible to find it).

So far I haven't come across any source from 1956 which repeats either of the two logos. As long as it is unclear whether there actually was an "official logo" of the 1956 edition and which one it was, I would advocate for having no logo image on the Wikipedia article so not to give any false impressions. EurovisionLibrarian (talk) 14:57, 21 April 2024 (UTC)

A small update: If the logo used by eurovision.tv (and which is the earlier version of the file) uses the Harrington font, it seems very doubtful that it really is from 1956: According to several websites, the Harrington font was created by a person named Sam Wang in 1991. EurovisionLibrarian (talk) 15:07, 21 April 2024 (UTC)

RSI / Radiotelevisione svizzera + co-production with Swiss German TV

The designation "Radiotelevisione svizzera" in the article seems anachronistic as RSI didn't have a TV station in 1956 (they started TV broadcasts only in 1958, see Radiotelevisione_svizzera#History). Usually the historical names of the broadcasters used in that respective year are used in the ESC articles, such as "Deutsches Fernsehen" for the German TV, and RTF for the French TV. As for RSI, its official name seems to have been "Radio Svizzera Italiana", see p. 65 in:

Scherrer, Adrian (2000). "Aufschwung mit Hindernissen, 1931 - 1937". In Drack, Markus T. (ed.). Radio und Fernsehen in der Schweiz : Geschichte der Schweizerischen Rundspruchgesellschaft SRG bis 1958 (PDF) (in German). Baden: Hier und Jetzt. p. 65. ISBN 3-906419-12-6. Retrieved 31 December 2023.

By the way, as RSI, for obvious reasons, didn't have any own TV cameras back then and couldn't produce the show on its own, an OB van from Swiss German Television (SRG) came from Zurich to Lugano in May 1956, where it stayed a whole week and produced several television programs, including the ESC. This was reported by Swiss newspapers at the time, see: Journal et feuille d’avis du Valais (9 May 1956), Oberländer Tagblatt (26 May 1956).

If there are no objections, I will replace "Radiotelevisione svizzera" with "Radio Svizzera Italiana" and add the information about the co-production. EurovisionLibrarian (talk) 11:43, 31 December 2023 (UTC)

I've gone ahead and changed the broadcaster name on the article to "Radio svizzera di lingua italiana", which appears to be the correct name for the radio broadcaster until the merging of the radio and television departments in 2009 (see RSI page on company history). That's some useful information about how the Swiss German broadcaster helped out with technical equipment, and is definitely worth inclusion here. Sims2aholic8 (talk) 12:55, 31 December 2023 (UTC)

Thanks for going ahead, but one commentary: "Radio svizzera di lingua italiana" isn't entirely correct either. It seems to have been the official name only from the 1990s on. According to p. 58 in the book chapter by Scherrer (reference above, link), the change from "Radio della Svizzera italiana" (p. 58) or "Radio Svizzera Italiana" (p. 65 and your link of the RSI page: "all’epoca si chiamava Radio Svizzera Italiana") to "Radio svizzera di lingua italiana" was made in the 1990s to mark the "national orientation" of its television and radio programs. The fact that it was commonly just called "Radio Monte Ceneri" or "Radio Lugano" in newspapers of the time, complicates the matter a little further. EurovisionLibrarian (talk) 13:14, 31 December 2023 (UTC)

Multiple interval acts identified!

I was sent a program guide of the 1956 Eurovision Song Contest by the aforementioned Dutch researcher, which was made and shared by Danmarks Radio. https://www.dr.dk/alletidersprogramoversigter/?from=1956-05-24&to=1956-05-25&date=1956-05-24&fileIndex=8

It mentions the 14 participating songs in order and the interval acts from Les Joyeux Rossignols and Les Trois Ménestrels.

Below the line of text that mentions the last song,” we see our interval acts. Turns out the 2 interval actors performed multiple songs, with Les Joyeux Rossignols performing their songs before Les Trois Ménestrels.

According to the guide, Les Joyeux Rossignols whistled “Valse Savoyarde” (heard in the audio), “Rhytme d’Asie”, and “Samba Dance”. Les Trois Ménestrels performed “Guerre de Troie”, “Ma mie, ma caravelle”, “Davy Crockett”, and “Ballade des balladins.”

Although most of these songs can be found online, unfortunately the last 2 songs from Les Joyeux Rossignols can’t be found, as I couldn’t find their covers of either song. Jusherman (talk) 21:06, 14 March 2024 (UTC)

Thank you for bringing up that source, which is very interesting. It seems that this "koda list" is a sort of report of what was broadcast, written after the broadcast. Similar documents exist for French television in the INA, called "Rapport du chef de chaîne", which focus more on technical details (technical incidents).

As far as I can see, the document linked by you mentions the song titles of the interval acts and their order but doesn't say anything about who performed them. How can we know that Les Joyeux Rossignols first performed a series of songs and then Les Trois Ménestrels another series of songs? How can we be sure that Les Joyeux Rossignols didn't perform just one or two songs, then Les Ménestrels another two, then again Les Rossignols etc...? In total, nine songs are mentioned. Your conclusion is that Les Joyeux Rossignols performed the first three, then Les Trois Ménestrels six more songs. How do you know? The conclusions you draw in your edits look like either guessing or WP:SYNTH to me. EurovisionLibrarian (talk) 19:36, 20 March 2024 (UTC)

The reason why I figured the artists from the songs is because the last 6 mentioned of bunch were all released and had credits by Les Trois Ménestrels, and the others must be from Les Joyeux Rossignols.

I tried looking up “Rhythme d’Asie” and “Sambe Dance” with mentions of Trois Ménestrels, but I found nothing, so I concluded that Les Joyeux Rossignols sung those songs. Les Joyeux Rossignols recorded themselves making whistle covers of various accordion songs and maybe classical music, so the fact that they whistled those 2 songs makes sense. I also assume the order of the interval acts that are listed are correct, since the competing songs are also listed in order.

“Vegliero” doesn’t appear to be an interval act, because I couldn’t find anything from that for either interval actor, and since the name of the composer is partially blocked, I assume it read “Paggi,” the contest’s musical director.

I hope this inference or assumption doesn’t revert my edits back, because I want more of the Eurovision community to know a lot about the 1956 and 1964 contests with even the most extensive knowledge. Jusherman (talk) 00:52, 21 March 2024 (UTC)

Looking at the new reference and your accompanying explanation, I would concur with EurovisionLibrarian that this would be a WP:SYNTH issue, as well as a wider WP:OR issue, since you're making assumptions about limited information at hand and drawing conclusions that are not included within the sources provided. I commend your drive to adding to the articles for the 1956 and 1964 contests, which like most of the early editions are somewhat overlooked, but additional sources, if available, are required to support your additions so that they do not rely on OR. Sims2aholic8 (talk) 10:04, 21 March 2024 (UTC)

I can somewhat understand this revert, but Les Joyeux Rossignols didn't whistle "Aubade d'oiseaux" at all; not in the audio or in the program guide. In fact, they’re whistling “Valse Savoyarde,” since studio versions of the same song are a perfect match, and it’s the first interval act that’s mentioned in the program guide. It was a mistake I made while editing that, and I don’t want it to be misinterpreted as fact.

As for finding more information on the interval acts, I think it’s a tough challenge, because interval acts are barely mentioned in the newspapers I’ve seen. None of the acts or the interval actors are even mentioned in the official booklet. It’s very likely the program guide is the only documentation of all of 7 of these acts, or at least a very rare one.

If that’s so, then I think we should still include the program guide and its information to some extent that doesn't violate any citation issues, since it's a primary source. Jusherman (talk) 14:22, 21 March 2024 (UTC)

I can understand that, and yes it does appear that the "Aubade d'oiseaux" was an error, however unless there are relevant sources that we can use to point to the performance of "Valse Savoyarde" that does not cause a SYNTH issue then unfortunately we can't include it as this would be an OR violation. For now I've removed all reference to the specific piece that les Joyeux Rossignols performed given the conflicting sources, but until another source can be found to back up "Valse Savoyarde" and the other pieces then for now we cannot confidently include them without violating Wikipedia policy. Sims2aholic8 (talk) 15:11, 21 March 2024 (UTC)

In order not to dismiss the information present in the DR papers, my proposal would be adding a sentence with the following outcome:

"[...] performances by Les Joyeux Rossignols and Les Trois Ménestrels [fr] were featured to entertain the audience, with the latter performing "Guerre de Troie"." (current version)

+

"Besides that, the pieces "Valse Savoyarde", "Rhytme d'Asie", "Sabre Dance", "Ma Caravelle", "Davy Crockett", "Coupeurs de bois" and "Ballade des balladins" were played or performed during the show." [+your ref = DR programoversikter]

OR (less interpretative):

"Besides that, a broadcast document by Danish broadcaster DR also lists the pieces "Valse Savoyarde" [etc.] as being part of the show."

As to "Vegliero", I agree that it could be the piece played as closing music by the orchestra, and would therefore not include it in the article because its function is unclear and it is a bit speculative with a part of this row in the scanned document not being visible.

The information you found is of value, and we should treat it with the proper respect and responsibility. EurovisionLibrarian (talk) 19:02, 21 March 2024 (UTC)

That’s a great idea. Thank you! I hope we find more information about these outside of speculation.

Do you think citing Les Trois Ménestrels would bypass any violations, since we know which songs can be traced to them? If so, then I think it’s easy to see where I made my assumption too. Jusherman (talk) 23:17, 21 March 2024 (UTC)

I would be opposed to adding in this large string of titles of pieces performed in this manner when we don't have the link to the artists. Additionally, using this source and another source as "proof" that Les Trois Ménestrels performed the pieces in question at Eurovision would be a WP:SYNTH violation, since you're combining two sources to reach a conclusion that isn't present in either source. I did a slight rewrite to include a general statement that other pieces were performed and to reinclude the DR reference. Happy to continue to work to get the phrasing right, but I still don't believe adding in a whole list of pieces performed without the right context is helpful for the reader. Sims2aholic8 (talk) 10:11, 22 March 2024 (UTC)

I can live with that. The phrasing "with the latter performing "Guerre de Troie" along with other works" is still a bit misleading or confusing because it gives the impression that only Les Ménestrels performed several works but I can't think of a better sentence for the moment without repeating the verb. EurovisionLibrarian (talk) 19:41, 22 March 2024 (UTC)

A while ago, I managed to get my hands on the BBC program guide, which also mentions some of the interval acts. I got this from screenshots from texts between the aforementioned Dutch researcher and Gordon Roxbourgh.

This guide actually mentions which interval performers did each song. It says Les Joyeux Rossignols performed “La Valse” (Valse Savoyarde) and “Rhythme d’Asie,” while Les Trois Ménestrels performed “La Caravelle” (Ma mie, ma caravelle), “Le Telephone,” and “Davie Crockett” (Ballade de Davy Crockett).

All of the songs from Les Trois Ménestrels from the BBC guide can be matched with the DR one, but both have some differences. It doesn’t appear Les Trois Ménestrels performed “La Telephone” in the DR guide, nor is the song available online. Sabre Dance, “Le coupeurs de bois,” and “Le ballade de balladins” are absent from the BBC guide, but appear in the DR guide.

If you know how to include this information to the article, that would be a big help. You can find the BBC and DR guide in this tweet I made, as well as my inferences on the info. https://x.com/LewisTheJej/status/1791666513558024562 Jusherman (talk) 02:32, 28 May 2024 (UTC)

The Wikipedia guidelines require reliable, published sources. Your post on X can't be cited per WP:SYNTH and WP:UGC (in this case, there are also legal questions since the document looks like coming from an archive and not having been published on behalf of the BBC nor with their permission so could be a WP:COPYLINK issue, in addition).

As for your contact with Roxburgh, I propose we wait and see if in one of his future volumes of his "Songs for Europe" series, he will or will not include information (usually in the addenda sections at the end of the volume) about the interval act of 1956. This would be an example of a reliable, published secondary source. EurovisionLibrarian (talk) 13:08, 28 May 2024 (UTC)

Franco Marazzi as Italian radio commentator

Hi, in the current version of the article, there is no reference for Franco Marazzi being also the radio commentator for Secondo Programma. The Radiocorriere references credit him as TV commentator and give the broadcasting channels. Was there an earlier reference about him being the radio commentator that has been removed at some point? EurovisionLibrarian (talk) 07:55, 10 November 2024 (UTC)

Earlier versions of the articles give the following reference for the radio broadcast:

"Oggi e domani alla radio" [Today and tomorrow on the radio]. Stampa Sera (in Italian). 24 May 1956. p. 6. Archived from the original on 30 May 2022. Retrieved 30 May 2022.

However, also this source lacks a mention of Franco Marazzi as radio commentator. So for the moment, I have separated the two broadcasts to make it clear that Marazzi is only sourced as TV commentator. EurovisionLibrarian (talk) 19:35, 17 November 2024 (UTC)