Talk:European Canadians

Population of Euro-Canadians

If European Canadians constitute 80 percent of Canada's population, shouldn't the number be less than 31 million? 1. We aren't "European" Canadians. That mistake has been popularized since the late 1960s. We are British North Americans, see my note below. 2. We are far fewer than 80% at this point, and have been targeted by the UN for "replacement immigration", which has to be stopped.

Split re-direct 'White Canadians' and 'European Canadians'

Putting this proposal up partly because I created the map which showcased the percentages of those who are (the percentage is not formally published by Statistics Canada but 'White' is still a census option and can be inferred) White on Canada's census (with partial ignorance and mis-remembrance of Canada's weird racial definition's including the word European on it) and to settle the most recent revert dispute.

The reason as to why I am proposing a spilt of the article is for 2 reasons; while Statistics Canada essentially mean European people's when they mean 'White', the White census option also allows Arabs, West Asians and Latin Americans, who are racial groups by the visible minority standards of themselves, to declare themselves as 'White' in the mark-in box and then their racial origin as 'Arab' etc. in the write-in box (or vice versa), hence a difference between 'White' Canadians and 'European Canadians'. From Statistics Canada's website (1, 2, 3);

"In contrast, in accordance with employment equity definitions, persons who reported 'Latin American' and 'White,' 'Arab' and 'White,' or 'West Asian' and 'White' have been excluded from the visible minority population. Likewise, persons who reported 'Latin American,' 'Arab' or 'West Asian' and who provided a European write-in response such as 'French' have been excluded from the visible minority population as well. These persons are included in the 'Not a visible minority' category. However, persons who reported 'Latin American,' 'Arab' or 'West Asian' and a non-European write-in response are included in the visible minority population. For example, respondents who checked 'Latin American' and wrote in 'Peruvian' are included in the 'Latin American' count. Respondents who reported 'Arab' and wrote in 'Lebanese' are included in the 'Arab' count. Respondents who reported 'West Asian' and wrote in 'Afghan' are included in the 'West Asian' count."

This definition has been used for a while from at-least 2015 (if not longer I have not checked) to my knowledge and should be accurately represented in two different articles.

Second reason being is to treat Canada's topic's of racial groups and pan-ethnic groups the same way America's articles are, with currently one article on European Americans (those who declare a European origin ethnic group on the ethnicity question) and a Non-Hispanic White American article (and the White American article as well) for the racial group in which the vast majority of European Americans fall under. This way we can avoid confusion and edit conflict's etc. which have been in this article for a while and the European Canadian article here can then link off to White Canadians page for those who want to view the racial group page.

@Loopy30 hope you do not mind me tagging you here. Tweedle (talk) 10:20, 17 July 2022 (UTC)

I would support a split into two distinct topics but with the following observations.

• The map chart appears to be original research and the data used is from assumptions and inferences.
• Nowhere does Statistics Canada conflate the racial term "white" with the geographic origin term "European". In fact, StatsCan does not even use the term "European-Canadian".
• There is no reason to change the StatsCan racial or immigration grouping terms to match those used by another country just to be convenient for Wikipedia article titles.
• The main difficulty with this article is that the term "European Canadian" is not actually used by anyone, academically or culturally. Even many origin-category terms that are used (eg. Italian-Canadians, Ukrainian-Canadians, etc) mostly fall off in usage three or four generations after arrival. This is not true for racial terms, as most Black-Canadians and Chinese-Canadians will retain these group identifiers as long as they continue to marry within that community.
• As (correctly) identified in a previous discussion thread, this article is already being used as a proxy for an article on white Canadians under the guise of a partially constructed StatsCan immigration term. If we were to use the racial category as a title instead, then at least the sources available would better support the text to be used in the article. It would not be wrong to delete this whole article in its present form! Loopy30 (talk) 12:45, 17 July 2022 (UTC)

  I know this was over a year ago @Tweedledumb2/@Tweedle and @Loopy30, but I'd like to clarify that the stipulation cited seems to be due to the fact that being "mixed" ethnicity is not really an option in the census. If people claim to have both European and West Asian/Arab/Latin American ancestry, they will simply be counted as "European" and not "mixed", and thus, they are "white" or not a "visible minority" or "POC" or whatever equivalent terminology.

  Either way, most articles you come across won't be calling people like the Afghans in Canada as "white". And in general context, they may often lumped together with South Asians considering their shared border/ties with Pakistan. To me, I am fine with "White Canadian" being a re-direct to "European Canadians". Otherwise, the Asian Canadians page might as well be split into "Yellow Canadians" or "Brown Canadians", since I'm sure there are loads of reliable sources where Indian- or Filipino-Canadians personally describe themselves as being "Brown", while Japanese-Canadians do not use such a descriptor.

  Per the 2006 census, if someone says their ethnicity/ancestry is "Black" and "French or Malaysian", they would be included in the "Black" count, not "mixed" or "two or more races" like in the U.S.[1]

  Respondents who checked 'Black' and wrote-in 'French' or 'Malaysian' are also included in the 'Black' count.

  Similarly, in the 2021 census,[2] someone who says their ancestry is both "South Asian" (i.e - Indian or Pakistani) and "European" (i.e - Irish or Swedish) would be counted in the "South Asian" category, not mixed. So again, it seems like if someone says their ancestry is both European and West Asian/Arab/Latin American, they are not counted as West Asian/Arab/Latin American, but "European", and thus, are not mixed, visible minorities, or people of colour. But, if European ancestry is checked off with a visible minority group that isn't West Asian/Arab/Latin American, they are included in the visible minority group.

  For example, respondents who checked both “South Asian” and “White” are included in the “South Asian” category. In addition, respondents who checked “South Asian” and had a write-in response such as “Swedish” would also be included in the “South Asian” category.

  Under these stipulations, one of China's 55 recognized ethnic minorities includes the Russians. Hypothetically, going by the census terms, a Chinese of Russian ethnicity can put that they're both "Chinese" and "Russian", and be presumably counted in the "Chinese" count, and thus, are visible minorities or "non-white" despite their European heritage and the general idea that European ancestry = "whiteness". Similarly, an Anglo-Indian of full or predominant British ancestry can say they're both "South Asian" and "English/British", and be included in "South Asian" count and thus, are "visible minorities" or "non-white". Even if they look completely Anglo-Saxon and would never be perceived as having Indian origins in everyday contexts.

  The Canadian census also recognizes West Asians and Central Asians as being "Asian"; two Asian regions omitted from the definitions of "Asian" in other countries like say, the United States. But in popular context, they may just be referred to as "Middle Eastern [Canadians]" or something. Clear Looking Glass (talk) 23:11, 13 December 2023 (UTC)

I will note (1) it makes no sense at all that Asian Canadians and Black Canadians have maps on their groups but European Canadians can't have one, (2) i will also note that in Black Canadians it says (also known as African-Canadians or Afro-Canadians). Why can't the same be said for European Canadians as [Euro-Canadians or White Canadians)??. becouse if thats bad, then its also bad for saying that African-Canadians as Black Canadians becouse people like Elon Musk (who is American but i will use his case) is said to be African but his White. and what about White South African Canadians where do you point them are they African-Canadians/Black Canadians or are they White-Canadians/European Canadians becouse thats what their roots are with British, European and Afrikaner ancestry.

Either way, my postion is that the map that Tweedle made should be on a page. either on a 'White Canadians' or 'European Canadians page. La lopi (talk) 00:19, 18 July 2022 (UTC)

"European Canadians" is not limited to those who specifically identify European ethnic origins in the census

I have updated the article to include all groups with European ancestry. This really should have been done sooner. The article previously only included numbers of those who identified European ethnic origins in the census, which doesn't work because ethnic identity is not the same thing as ancestry. The definition of "European Canadians" in this article is "Canadians who were either born in or can trace their ancestry to the continent of Europe". French Canadians perfectly fit this description, but would not have been included, because the census counts it as a North American group. French Canadians are ethnic group defined as having 17th and 18th century French settler ancestry. Despite having a North American ethnic identity, they (and other groups such as Acadians, and other White Canadians who identify their ethnic origin as Canadian), are still European in the sense that this article relates to.

All of this really brings up the point that this article should just be titled "White Canadians", but that's a different topic that someone can open up if they care to do so. In any case, it is already a problem that this article is titled "European Canadians" instead of the much more commonly used "White Canadians". Let's not make it even worse by manipulating the definition of European Canadian so that it does not accurately reflect the population that it is referring to, by pretending that there is a difference between people who identify their ethnic origin as "French" and those who identify it as "French Canadian". By the way, pre-1996, StatsCan would include "Québécois" (a North American identity) ethnic origin responses (of which there were very few) under "French origins", but this all changed with the introduction of the Canadian ethnic origin in 1996. This article's previous definition of "European Canadian" was just way too restrictive. C.monarchist28 (talk) 00:34, 28 September 2024 (UTC)

We've discussed this before (see above) just want to get your point clear here...are you assuming all white people in Canada are European and that all Europeans are white? Or is it that simply because of the articles title that all European origin ethnic groups should to be counted together?... Thus panethnicity grouping over specific ethnic or cultural origins. This has come up multiple times over the years I'm very stages..... Wondering if we should have an overall European Canadian article that encompasses all those of European ancestry and an article about white Canadians?Moxy🍁 01:03, 28 September 2024 (UTC)

According to Statistics Canada (and to most Canadians), "White" means of European ancestry. In the modern day, I believe that this is how 95% of Canadians, Americans etc use and understand the term. The Statistics Canada source that I have included for the White population literally just takes into account European and European-descended (Canadian, French Canadian, Québécois etc) origin responses.

It is obvious this page is about White Canadians, in other words, Canadians of European descent. There is no point in two separate "European Canadians" and "White Canadians" articles, because they are the same group. There are virtually no ethnic, ancestral, or cultural differences between the 52% who reported European origins and the remaining 17% who are also White but identified non-European origins. The only differences between them is how they responded to a question on the census. People with the European surnames like Smith or Gauthier who are visibly of European ancestry would not have previously been included in this article as having European ancestry simply because they identified North American origins - origins that are European in ancestry anyway. It is incorrect not the include them.

I personally prefer White Canadians as the article title, but European Canadians is fine as long as it actually includes all European Canadians, and not just the made-up group of the 52% that was previously shown, who do not share anything in common that is actually collectively distinct from the other 48%. C.monarchist28 (talk) 02:18, 28 September 2024 (UTC)

Wow that sounds like a lot of original research. It's a little bit of a problem..... that is the assumption that all Europeans are white.... or for example that all French Canadians are of European descent. We'll ask for some more input. Moxy🍁 02:27, 28 September 2024 (UTC)

What on earth!

Did you just say "or for example that all French Canadians are of European descent"? Moxy, French Canadians are an ethnic group defined as being descended from the French settlers during the times of New France. To be a French Canadian is to have ancestry in France. France is in Europe. There is literally ZERO original research in what I am putting forward, I am just stating facts! You clearly have less of an idea about what you are talking about than me, telling me it is an "assumption" that French Canadians are of European descent. Give me a break.

It really seems you hardly have any idea what you are talking about, meanwhile I am making perfect sense in including European-descended, non-Indigenous, North American origin responses as part of European Canadians. C.monarchist28 (talk) 02:40, 28 September 2024 (UTC)

I think you're missing the point..... for instance you're assuming that all people who classify themselves as white are of European descent and we should exclude those of Middle Eastern, or North African descent that classify themselves as white? Or for example you're suggesting everyone who considers themselves of Canadian origins or ethnicity is white. Moxy🍁 02:49, 28 September 2024 (UTC)

Thinking that we should make an article about white Canadians..... and have this page as a summary of all the European ethnicities. Moxy🍁 02:54, 28 September 2024 (UTC)

No Moxy. Because actually, the census does not ask "what is your race". At no point does it ask if you are Black or Asian or White. It asks what your ethnic origin is, only. People may say French or German or whatever other ethnic origin they have. Then Statistics Canada takes this data and categorizes it into the percentage who are White, who are Black, who are South Asian etc. People nominating "French Canadian" get counted within the "North American origins" among geography, and also separately as "White" among race. However, my point, that YOU are missing, is that they have European ancestry, and were not previously included in this article, just like Acadians, and ethnic "Canadian" responses too. Which is a problem, because they have European ancestry, and also have a North American ethnic identity. But, they have European ancestry. Canadian responses are attributed to British and French Canadians.

I don't get your point "assuming that all people who classify themselves as white are of European descent". It's not like someone is being classified as white in the census and then nominating Filipino ethnicity to classifying themselves as East Asian then nominating Scottish ethnicity. Jeez, use some common sense please. In Canadian English, White = European-descended, and European-descended = White. C.monarchist28 (talk) 03:10, 28 September 2024 (UTC)

Also LOLing at the fact this one time you told me "Western alienatino (with that typo in alienation) is common knowledge to any Canadian" and now you just said that it is "original research" and an "assumption" "that all French Canadians are of European descent" LOL. C.monarchist28 (talk) 03:15, 28 September 2024 (UTC)

What you're doing is classifying anyone who chooses... let's say for instance Canadian ethnicity as European and white. Despite the fact that the 10 most frequently reported origins among the Black population were: Jamaican, African, Canadian, English etc....https://publications.gc.ca/site/archivee-archived.html?url=https://publications.gc.ca/collections/collection_2019/statcan/89-657-x/89-657-x2019002-eng.pdf Moxy🍁 03:52, 28 September 2024 (UTC)

If Canadian was the only non-Black origin listed there, then you would have a point, but the fact this data shows English and Scottish responses too, clearly shows there is something more going on here than Black people who happen to identify random ethnic origins that they are not. This data clearly just shows people who are mixed with other ethnicities. In other words, these respondents are people who these survey-takers considered Black and who also had some British Isles or French ancestry. I am sure that Black people nominate their correct ethnic origin.C.monarchist28 (talk) 04:29, 28 September 2024 (UTC)

To be honest, Moxy, I am convinced you do not know what ethnic origin is, the way that all of your argument go. It seems you believe that people may identify their ethnic origin as Scottish if their family has been there a few generations, even if they are Black. That is not how ethnicity works. I truly believe you think this way - as if ethnic identity does not refer to a specific group who by fact and definition share common characteristics, and who may, by definition, be White or Black or something else. Scottish ethnicity would refer to a specific group of people who, among other things, are white by definition.

Calling it an assumption that all French Canadians are of European descent is like you telling me we can't assume someone Chinese is Asian. The argument with you really should have just ended there. C.monarchist28 (talk) 04:40, 28 September 2024 (UTC)

Very simply put not all people who self-identified as white are of European descent...many that claim to be white are of North African descent or middle eastern descent. Your restoration of the data in the infobox of white people encompasses more than what this article encompasses.... because not all white people identify with being European. Source The ancestry of the group who reported being White only is very diverse: over 400 ethnic or cultural origins were reported in the census and 40.7% of people in this group reported multiple origins Moxy🍁 04:45, 28 September 2024 (UTC)

THERE IS NO "SELF-IDENTIFIED AS WHITE". THE CENSUS DOES NOT ASK IF YOU ARE WHITE. IT ONLY ASKS FOR ETHNIC ORIGIN. THEN STATISTICS CANADA CATEGORIZES CERTAIN ETHNIC GROUPS AS WHITE. THESE ARE EUROPEAN AND EUROPEAN-DESCENDED ETHNIC ORIGINS. IF YOU CANNOT UNDERSTAND THIS SIMPLE INFORMATION, THEN I UNFORTUNATELY CANNOT HELP YOU. C.monarchist28 (talk) 05:12, 28 September 2024 (UTC)

THERE ARE APPROXIMATELY ZERO PEOPLE WHO STATISTICS CANADA INCLUDED AS WHITE AND WHO ONLY NOMINATED A MIDDLE EASTERN OR NORTH AFRICAN DESCENT. FORTUNATELY, UNLIKE YOU, THE GOVERNMENT UNDERSTANDS RACE IS NOT A CHOICE. YOU ARE TRYING TO ACT LIKE PEOPLE JUST FUCKING CHOOSE TO IDENTIFY WITH RANDOM RACES OR ORIGINS! AS THOUGH A LIBYAN JUST GETS COUNTED AS WHITE ON THE CANADIAN CENSUS! GET A GRIP!

End this discussion now! Or at least let someone else talk! But you do not understand a thing! Get out of here! C.monarchist28 (talk) 05:18, 28 September 2024 (UTC)

A few things to read.WP:SYNTH...and dont get block Wikipedia:No personal attacks - WP:3RR Moxy🍁 05:27, 28 September 2024 (UTC)

I am embarrassed to be giving you any more attention or entertainment, but take a look at the source I used for the White population. It shows the exact numbers of combinations of races. How many White + Black, White + South Asian, White + Arab. Notice how all of the groups are not European or white. It publishes the European only/"White only" separately.

Moxy, there are no Black people or Arabs being counted as "White alone" and we can, thankfully, safely assume all French Canadians have European ancestry. Please, stop editing pages that are bigger than you and being so adamant on the dumbest things. C.monarchist28 (talk) 05:26, 28 September 2024 (UTC)

To quote above #Split re-direct 'White Canadians' and 'European Canadians'

"Nowhere does Statistics Canada conflate the racial term "white" with the geographic origin term "European". In fact, StatsCan does not even use the term "European-Canadian".' Moxy🍁 05:34, 28 September 2024 (UTC)

IT IS ULTIMATELY NOTHING BUT UNFORTUNATE THAT STATSCAN LISTS PEOPLE'S IDENTITIES BY GEOGRAPHY RATHER THAN RACE (WHICH MEANS, THERE IS NO GROUP FOR "EUROPEAN", BUT ONLY FOR THE GEOGRAPHICALLY-BASED "EUROPE" AND "NORTH AMERICA". THOUGH, ACADIANS AND FRENCH CANADIANS ARE EUROPEAN BY DEFINITION EVEN IF INCLUDED AS NORTH AMERICAN ORIGINS IN THE CENSUS, THE SAME WAY AN AFRICAN AMERICAN HAS AFRICAN ROOTS DESPITE HAVING A NORTH AMERICAN IDENTITY TOO! ("FRENCH CANADIAN" "AFRICAN AMERICAN" ARE TWO NORTH AMERICAN IDENTITIES).

MY POINT THOUGH IS THAT FRENCH CANADIANS HAVE EUROPEAN ANCESTRY, WHICH IS WHAT THIS PAGE IS ABOUT! IT WAS PREVIOUSLY AN ERROR NOT TO INCLUDE THEM, AND CANADIANS, AND ACADIANS, SINCE UNFORTUNATELY DESPITE HAVING EUROPEAN ORIGINS, STATSCAN DOES NOT INCLUDE THEM IN "EUROPE" BUT IN "NORTH AMERICA". C.monarchist28 (talk) 05:44, 28 September 2024 (UTC)

25 2021 Census: 2A-R

Sociocultural information

. Is this person:

Mark "x" more than one circle or specify, if applicable.

White

South Asian (e.g., East Indian, Pakistani, Sri Lankan)

Chinese

Black

Filipino

Arab

Latin American

Southeast Asian (e.g., Vietnamese, Cambodian, Laotian, Thai)

West Asian (e.g., Iranian, Afghan)

Korean

Japanese

Other group — specify: Moxy🍁 08:09, 28 September 2024 (UTC)

Yup, defining Whiteness from the census is pretty straight forward. You're White if you're (A) Not a visible minority and (B) not Indigenous. Not worth a lengthy debate over.-- Earl Andrew - talk 13:25, 28 September 2024 (UTC)

Agree we should move this to White Canadians as proposed above a few times. Moxy🍁 13:49, 28 September 2024 (UTC)

I agree, not worth a lengthy debate, but Moxy kept on suggesting shit like French Canadians not being White and Black people identifying ethnically as English. She does not understand what she is talking about. C.monarchist28 (talk) 14:28, 28 September 2024 (UTC)

Are you not reading the sources provided? The 10 most frequently reported origins among the Black population were: Jamaican, African , Haitian, Canadian, English, Somali, Nigerian, French, Ethiopian and Scottish. ...Do you have a sources that says otherwise? PS:Male editor = Moxy🍁 14:37, 28 September 2024 (UTC)

Will paste my previous response again:

If Canadian was the only non-Black origin listed there, then you would have a point, but the fact this data shows English and Scottish responses too, clearly shows there is something more going on here than Black people who happen to identify random ethnic origins that they are not. This data clearly just shows people who are mixed with other ethnicities. In other words, these respondents are people who these survey-takers considered Black and who also had some British Isles or French ancestry. I am sure that Black people nominate their correct ethnic origin.

Lastly, please take a second to understand that all of these ethnic identities that StatsCan considers white (like "Canadian") (source: [3] and Control+F "70%") have, by definition, European ancestry. Canadian has British Isles and French ancestry. French Canadian and Acadian have French ancestry. You are really not the brightest tool in the shed. Can't seem to think or reason or learn. C.monarchist28 (talk) 14:49, 28 September 2024 (UTC)

Its funny I am not sure you get it ...your saying thoses that identify as "Canadian" are simply white...but they can be both and many are a visible minority.....simply crazy to also think if someone say French Canadian origin they cant be Black.....The ancestral diversity of the Black population is a reflection of the different waves of immigration to Canada. In fact, the Black population reported over 300 different ethnic or cultural origins in the census. In addition, one-quarter (25.6%) of the Black population reported more than one ethnic or cultural origin. Some of the most common origins reported were "African" (15.7%), "Jamaican" (13.0%), "Haitian" (10.8%) and "Canadian" (5.9%). Moxy🍁 15:03, 28 September 2024 (UTC)

Requested move 28 September 2024

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: not moved. (non-admin closure) Alpha3031 (t • c) 15:11, 21 October 2024 (UTC)

---

European Canadians → White Canadians – Nowhere does Statistics Canada conflate the racial term "white" with the geographic origin term "European". Source 1 - Source 2 -Source 3 - Source 4Moxy🍁 14:08, 28 September 2024 (UTC) — Relisting. Cremastra (talk) 16:23, 7 October 2024 (UTC)

• Support per nom to be consistent with Black Canadians, but still don’t like the emphasis on race. Canadians of African descent and Canadians of European descent would be much better imo

Kowal2701 (talk) 19:22, 28 September 2024 (UTC)

• Support for consistency and clarification purposes. Inferring from the Statistics Canada definition of visible minorities as "persons, other than Aboriginal peoples, who are non-Caucasian in race or non-white in colour" (source: [4]), once one subtracts both Aboriginal and Visible Minority populations, the remaining population is White.Van00220 (talk) 20:58, 28 September 2024 (UTC)

• Oppose move to new title. As much as the current article has some serious difficulties both in concept (the term lacks any basic acceptance or general usage) and layout (charts should support the text, not be walls to obscure it), at this point it should be either 1) kept and improved or 2) deleted outright. This is not the article text and history to form the basis of a new article on the different subject of "White Canadians". Nor should the term European Canadians be redirected to a new article on White Canadians, as to do so would only serve to continuing the erroneous conflation of the two topics.

If someone wants to write an article about the demographic group referred to as White Canadians, they would be better off starting from scratch and developing it at the article title "White Canadians" which is currently a redirect to Ethnic origins of people in Canada. Loopy30 (talk) 20:02, 29 September 2024 (UTC)

• Oppose. The nom statement itself says "Nowhere does Statistics Canada conflate the racial term "white" with the geographic origin term "European"". Therefore what's proposed here is a change of the subject matter of this article. From what I can see the majority of the article's content discusses exactly what it's about. Per Kowal I would prefer Canadians of European descent (and possibly Canadians of African descent) though, as the present title implies it's some sort of proper name rather than a descriptive title.  — Amakuru (talk) 14:41, 7 October 2024 (UTC)

• Oppose. If the article was renamed, it would have to be substantially rewritten. As well, there is no clear definition of what it means to be a white Canadian, and the racial category of white keeps changing over the years. There is a New York Times article on how Italians became white in America, for example - https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2019/10/12/opinion/columbus-day-italian-american-racism.html and a book edited by Jennifer Guglielmo and Salvatore Salerno entitled Are Italians White? How Race is Made in America. Karen Brodkin has published a book entitled How Jews Became White Folks and What That Says About Race in America. Southern states used to have the one drop rule, according to which any black ancestry meant you were non-white- nobody believes in that anymore. The meaning of the label has changed a lot over the years. White Canadians is too amorphous a category to be the subject of an article. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Bob Gollum (talk • contribs) 16:20, October 11, 2024 (UTC)
• Oppose Moving to "white" would constitute a change in scope of the article, as the lede of this article specifically mentions European heritage. Natg 19 (talk) 20:42, 18 October 2024 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.